OT:Hunting Ranch Killed Mtn Lions so wouldn't eat their deer...ridiculous!
I honestly am not shocked...more disgusted then anything else. I just will never understand how people think that it is okay to kill things just for the sake of killing.
And who the hell pays 20k to kill an elk? You gotta be kidding me.
"And who the hell pays 20k to kill an elk? You gotta be kidding me."
A wealthy idiot that's too lazy to do the scouting and real work necessary to be successful. Many of these same idiots don't even take the meat, which is the real reason we hunt in the first place - you know, get back some sort of real connection to where your food comes from.
Losers. I know some of these ranches survive only because of hunting dollars since there is so little money in real ranching, and I know a lot of them do a great job of habitat management and restoration, but god, I wish the ones like this would go away. Better a hunting ranch than a subdivision though.
I should clarify...i have no problem with hunting when people are eating what they kill. Or even to manage populations, disease, pests, etc. But this is just pure greed and laziness...and the cats are the ones who suffered because of it.
I just am not a fan of people who say "I want to kill a bear". When I ask why they usually don't have an answer. When I ask do they really think it is hunting when they are using a high-powered rifle from a long way off? Or when the bear is hiding in a tree? Again there is not much of an answer.
This reminds me of a hunting show I saw on TV...where the guy with a mustache from the show Simon&Simon went on a hunt in Africa for a leopard. They tied a piece of meat up and hid in a shack. When the leopard came along and was eating the meat they shot it from far away with it never knowing it was there. Worst part was that after they killed it they walked up and looked at it and said "what a beautiful animal". I kept thinking...IT WAS until you idiots killed it!
Anyway rant over...hopefully the fine will change their practice and the practice of others.
Originally Posted by XC62701
Agreed...make it longer. I want to know death is an option
...hopefully the fine will change their practice and the practice of others.
Not likely..... with clients paying $20k to shoot an elk, $50k to shoot a bighorn sheep, I'm sure there's some A-hole with too much money willing to shoot a mountain lion
Not likely..... with clients paying $20k to shoot an elk, $50k to shoot a bighorn sheep, I'm sure there's some A-hole with too much money willing to shoot a mountain lion
agreed 1000%.
That's page 36 of their catalog on schitt to kill.
My buddy who bow hunts told me you can actually pay to setup killing a record size buck and wind up in a publication called Boone and Crockett as a record holder.
they should be protected against this sort of thing imo...
edited--i think the mtn lions should be protected from this sort of killing. i'm fine with hunting as long as the populations are managed to ensure that the impacted species are thriving. similar to what the bird hunters do in the central valley....the enviros and hunters are actually working very closely together since they are aligned to want the populations to increase and thrive...and the hunters have all the $$...
Well, it seems to me that the price paid by the hunters to kill their prey also incentivizes the ranch to manage the population so that they flourish. I don't really see that as a bad thing. As for the mountain lions killings, it's obviously appalling.
Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun
I should clarify...i have no problem with hunting when people are eating what they kill. Or even to manage populations, disease, pests, etc. But this is just pure greed and laziness...and the cats are the ones who suffered because of it.
I just am not a fan of people who say "I want to kill a bear". When I ask why they usually don't have an answer. When I ask do they really think it is hunting when they are using a high-powered rifle from a long way off? Or when the bear is hiding in a tree? Again there is not much of an answer.
This reminds me of a hunting show I saw on TV...where the guy with a mustache from the show Simon&Simon went on a hunt in Africa for a leopard. They tied a piece of meat up and hid in a shack. When the leopard came along and was eating the meat they shot it from far away with it never knowing it was there. Worst part was that after they killed it they walked up and looked at it and said "what a beautiful animal". I kept thinking...IT WAS until you idiots killed it!
Anyway rant over...hopefully the fine will change their practice and the practice of others.
Yeah, in Texas where my parent's live it's totally out of control. They make deer-hoppers that feed the deer at specific times to "train" them to come around at a certain time (to be shot). It's ridiculous how "serious" they take it and how much damn camo there is. If you've ever been to this part of Texas, you may know that the deer population is huge, and maybe it does need some resonable controlling, but it would be just about as sporting to dig a frickin hole in the ground and just wait till one falls in. I remember when I was a kid I shot a wild turkey in the neck with a pellet rifle and we ate it. From that point on I was simply not interested in hunting, there's just no real challenge in it, except "waiting", but what a horrible way to spend your time if that's what it is. People have semi auto shotguns, camo-everything, turkey calls, and all sorts of stupid devices, and I "took one" with a frickin pellet rifle. Hunting probably serves some animal instincts, but by all accounts, I think it's pretty boring. This from someone who likes to shoot firearms and was in the Army.
"It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth
Tejon Ranch is huge. I say it is time to build trails there and save the mountain lions.
They are in fact re-routing the Pacific Crest Trail thru Tejon Ranch, not that it helps us MTBers at all. Maybe they will give the us MTBers the sloppy seconds of the discarded PCT.
This reminds me of a hunting show I saw on TV...where the guy with a mustache from the show Simon&Simon went on a hunt in Africa for a leopard. They tied a piece of meat up and hid in a shack. When the leopard came along and was eating the meat they shot it from far away with it never knowing it was there. Worst part was that after they killed it they walked up and looked at it and said "what a beautiful animal". I kept thinking...IT WAS until you idiots killed it!
Hates me some leopards. Hey back up, thars nuther wun
Elk is good for steaks if you like them rare, otherwise it just dries out and loses its flavor once you try to cook a little longer. I prefer buffalo though for most of my exotic meat needs.
The only reason this killing was revealed was a 'whistleblower' spoke up.
Hunting is halted for now. Tejon Hunt Can we keep it that way? It's a public company that generates $2 million a year in hunting revenue. Predictions are hunting will be reopened by fall 2012.
bobwwhiteyodel
Do NOT pay this fine to the Califor nia Game and Fish department, who are nothing but organized crime syndicate guilty of extortion and racketeering. Thank God some people on this ranch have enough common sense to weed out the useless feeders like mountain lions to protect true game that has value. This narc is an enemy of all thinking people.
Elk is venison, bro. Venison is a general term for various kinds of deer and elk.
Thanks for the info. I did not know this. Of course there was no elk hunting where I grew up. And for the record, bear meat is not very good. Stew worthy, but does not make a good steak and makes REALLY greasy sausage.
Hope y'all complaining about meat raised for sale are vegetarians. Just sayin.
That's an awfully broad generalization Zon. Most industrial feed lot operations are nasty -for their neighbors, for consumers, for the environment and for the animals that they "manufacture"- and are deserving of complaints and more. Some of the work I do is to educate consumers on these issues as well as change the way that livestock is produced, and I'm no vegetarian. In fact, I grew up on a working cattle ranch in Colorado and have killed my share of cattle and wild game for meat. That doesn't mean that I can't "complain" about how meat is produced, in fact I have every right and even an expectation to do so, for my health and yours. I think you'd agree. For what it's worth, I eat my fair share of meat, but I try my best to find, and am willing to pay more for, meat that is naturally, sustainably, and ethically raised.
As for Tejon Ranch shooting lions, I despise trophy game hunting operations like this (but not most subsistence hunting). My great-grandfather and grandfather were big trophy hunters and would go on months-long expeditions to Africa, Alaska, Canada and the Montana/Wyoming Rockies from the mid 30's up to the start of WW 2. I grew up with the stories, the pictures, the guns and the "game house" full of trophy mounts (you can see some of the animals that they shot in the NY Museum of Natural History). I also had to deal with poachers on the ranch I lived on and the Jackwagons (to borrow the term from an older MTBR thread) that shoot at anything that moves, including our herd (and at least twice, me). The size of the animals that my family shot are noticeably larger than those that you will find in the wild today. Killing for the joy of it (there's little skill involved in operations like Tejon Ranch's) and killing the best specimens -simply to brag and hang a head on a wall- is not only pathetic, but weakens the game species that they are hunting. And to try to exterminate another key species in an ecosystem simply to make more money for the fat, lazy "hunters" that are their client base is abhorrent to me.
For what it's worth, I haven't gone hunting in years, but if I do go out and get an elk tag in the next year or two, I'll apply for a cow tag for the meat. I don't need or want a trophy animal just to brag to my friends... I just know that I've forgotten everything about field dressing and am sure to make a mess of things.
Last edited by huntermos; 02-16-2012 at 10:06 PM.
Reason: i cant spel...
Best piece of meat I ever had was venison served in a small french restaurant in Incline Village Tahoe. Basically melted in my mouth.
Like I said I have no problem with hunting for food...or even to manage a population or to keep it healthy.
I have a good friend who hunts quite a bit...and they use muzzle loader guns which from what I hear makes it much more difficult. They have to be much closer and it more truly resembles a "hunt" then just a "kill".
Originally Posted by XC62701
Agreed...make it longer. I want to know death is an option
The only reason this killing was revealed was a 'whistleblower' spoke up.
fc
By whistle blower, you mean liberal d-bag granola eatin tree huggin dip****... These are the same a-holes who want to cut off land available to Mt. Bikers. Sierra club does many great things
The only reason what they did was illegal, is because they didn't bother to go through the beaurocratic BS of getting a "Depredation" permit. Many ranchers obtain these permits all over the country to protect their livestock or animals that generate income for them. In this case, wild game on the property generates income, so they were protecting it.
The really sad thing is that we are policed to death about what we do on our own property...
By whistle blower, you mean liberal d-bag granola eatin tree huggin dip****... These are the same a-holes who want to cut off land available to Mt. Bikers. Sierra club does many great things
The only reason what they did was illegal, is because they didn't bother to go through the beaurocratic BS of getting a "Depredation" permit. Many ranchers obtain these permits all over the country to protect their livestock or animals that generate income for them. In this case, wild game on the property generates income, so they were protecting it.
The really sad thing is that we are policed to death about what we do on our own property...
Read the story ebnash and you will see that you have the facts wrong. The whistleblower was one of the guides who helps hunters on the ranch. A hunter himself. Even he became uncomfortable with the killing of the mountain lions....which puts it into perspective a bit doesn't it?
And I doubt very much that they would have gotten Depredation permits to kill 30 mtn lions.
Originally Posted by XC62701
Agreed...make it longer. I want to know death is an option
I live in the coastal hills, I can remember when we had a federal trapper that lived up the ridge from me. With the lack of mountain lions our deer population exploded. After a couple of years the deer population got bluetongue disease. They were thin and sickly. Fast forward to today. Since they have allowed the lions to return, the deer population is in balance and the buck's are much bigger and healthier.
So ranchers pay $13k per illegal mtn lion, while people pay them 20k per legal elk kill ??
With those incentives, of course they are gonna kill lions to keep them from eating every ~week what would grow up to be $20,000 in their pocket.
This is why California needs to drop prop 13 and tax these idiots of that big old piece of land once and for all. Why should we all pay 10% sales and income tax to support enforcement of these guys 'ownership' of a bunch of land and animals while they break laws and milk it.
I live in the coastal hills, I can remember when we had a federal trapper that lived up the ridge from me. With the lack of mountain lions our deer population exploded. After a couple of years the deer population got bluetongue disease. They were thin and sickly. Fast forward to today. Since they have allowed the lions to return, the deer population is in balance and the buck's are much bigger and healthier.
It's all about balance.
It's not all about balance when it's someones private property.
If this was a ranch with someones cows getting slaughtered by wild animals, everyone would support the ranchers efforts to protect his livestock.
Read the story ebnash and you will see that you have the facts wrong. The whistleblower was one of the guides who helps hunters on the ranch. A hunter himself. Even he became uncomfortable with the killing of the mountain lions....which puts it into perspective a bit doesn't it?
And I doubt very much that they would have gotten Depredation permits to kill 30 mtn lions.
Agreed, I did not read the story until just now. Kind of confusing that the guide brought up the complaint and charges when there is a picture of him posing with what looks like a proud kill???
It's all relative to what your beliefs are in hunting practices, but 20 mountain lions in 6 years does not seem excessive, but I cannot argue with the fact that they did so outside of the law. I believe they could have legally obtained 3-4 permits per year without too much hassle. Right here in Santa Clara County, professional hunters are hired by county offices to execute feral pigs around Santa Clara Water works property near Calaveras Reservior. These guys kill 100's of pigs in a couple months and get paid by our government because the pigs cause damage to the land from rooting and take away food from the local deer population.
In theory, they could develop a limited season and issue tags for this wilderness area and allow hunters to control the population who would surely eat most of the kills. The DFG has all kinds of limited tags that get issued based on a lottery system for other areas.
I am a little confused that it took this many years for this guy to come forward if he was really uncomfortable with the acts that took place. I think there could be some other agenda, but only the involved know what happened out there.
My appologies for jumping to the conclusion that acitivists were involved...
I think people can hunt responsibly and there's nothing wrong with that for the record.
Feral pigs deserve to be slaughtered with reckless abandon. This comes from the son of an active member of the California Native Plant Society. I'm not a member, they walk really slow and stop to look at plants every 20 yards.
If this was a ranch with someones cows getting slaughtered by wild animals, everyone would support the ranchers efforts to protect his livestock.
As a former "rancher," we knew that we may have the occasional loss due to predation and knew that it was the cost of doing business. The Fed used lethal poisoning on coyotes in the area, which resulted in the death of a lot of other animals, especially birds, the occasional pet dog and at least one of our working dogs, and used traps on occasion, one of which I just barely managed to avoid stepping in and losing my right foot. In the 80's we took these things for granted, but even then we were sometimes uncomfortable with the unintended consequences of their use. Now that they've stopped using these methods in many places, the population of raptors and other wildlife has rebounded and the region if more "in balance," like it should be. Today, there are effective non-lethal methods to protect herds, but most ranchers don't use them (why would be an interesting sociological study). I DON'T support the livestock industry's attempts to kill every predator out there and the fact that many of them are constantly whining and crying that they are being put out of business by predators is ridiculous -so much for the macho, manly image of the cowboy. The fact is that the vast majority of livestock deaths are from eating the wrong feed, lack of attention to their herd's health, problems with calving, and crappy fencing maintenance, in short, many livestock owners are lazy when it comes to taking care of their "investment." One of the main reasons for this is that their operations are heavily subsidized by the Fed (ironic since most of them tend to be of the "no welfare" conservative bent), they can write off the loss, and they can often get reimbursed for reporting animal's deaths as being caused by predators. It a great way to get paid for one's laziness and stupidity. For what it's worth, studies (and perhaps more importantly, the experience of trappers in the Predator Control Programs) prove that the most vilified predators such as wolves and mt. lions are responsible for a TINY fraction of livestock deaths. Even the much hated coyote kills far less cattle than bad weather:
Frankly, our time and money would better spent trying to figure out how to teach cattle how to use inhalers for their respiratory ailments! This is a great read for anyone that wants to learn more about predators and the livestock industry in the West: Carter Niemeyer - Wolfer The author was a government trapper for decades and has seen it all.
Originally Posted by iheartbicycles
It's not all about balance when it's someones private property.
Ah yes, the old "I can do anything I want on my private property" argument... No offense meant IHB, but I'll never understand this viewpoint. By extension of the logic of this belief, I can buy the property next to your house, and start up a 24 hour a day, 365 a year gravel pit operation, or cut down every tree and pave the entire acreage with sewage, or any number of other things that may have a negative impact on your quality of life, property value, health, etc. How does one decide which property owner is allowed to do what they want with their land, to the detriment of and against the wishes of the other? As for agricultural lands, any operation, whether it be predator control, planting GMO or non-native crops, utilizing fertilizers/and or non-organic chemicals, or how the land is prepared and utilized will have unintended and often negative impacts in and on the areas surrounding it. The natural world doesn't recognize imaginary lines on maps or stop at fence lines. Anything a ranch or farm does on it's land needs to be looked at with an eye to how that will impact the ecosystem as a whole, how it will effect their neighbors, and how it will effect people downstream, both in a literal sense and as consumers.
Some of you might be interested in this. I'm in the process of digitizing and organizing the footage from my family's hunting expeditions and this is just a sampling of the 8 hours of material I'm going through. My grandfather is the blond kid with glasses and during the Africa safari, he shot the world recording holding lion at the age of 16. Don't know how long that record stood, but that lion was mounted, as a rug, on the wall of the "game house" when I was growing up. This was considered "sport" among the 1%er's of the pre-WW 2 generation. In North America, they (my family) would track and shoot their game, but on the Africa safari, they also used baits and stands, a fact that my grandfather later expressed some regret about.
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Originally Posted by Okie Dokie
