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  1. #1
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    OT:Hunting Ranch Killed Mtn Lions so wouldn't eat their deer...ridiculous!

    I honestly am not shocked...more disgusted then anything else. I just will never understand how people think that it is okay to kill things just for the sake of killing.

    And who the hell pays 20k to kill an elk? You gotta be kidding me.

    Tejon Ranch to pay fine for killing mountain lions - latimes.com
    Originally Posted by XC62701
    Agreed...make it longer. I want to know death is an option

  2. #2
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    "And who the hell pays 20k to kill an elk? You gotta be kidding me."

    A wealthy idiot that's too lazy to do the scouting and real work necessary to be successful. Many of these same idiots don't even take the meat, which is the real reason we hunt in the first place - you know, get back some sort of real connection to where your food comes from.

    Losers. I know some of these ranches survive only because of hunting dollars since there is so little money in real ranching, and I know a lot of them do a great job of habitat management and restoration, but god, I wish the ones like this would go away. Better a hunting ranch than a subdivision though.

  3. #3
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    I should clarify...i have no problem with hunting when people are eating what they kill. Or even to manage populations, disease, pests, etc. But this is just pure greed and laziness...and the cats are the ones who suffered because of it.

    I just am not a fan of people who say "I want to kill a bear". When I ask why they usually don't have an answer. When I ask do they really think it is hunting when they are using a high-powered rifle from a long way off? Or when the bear is hiding in a tree? Again there is not much of an answer.

    This reminds me of a hunting show I saw on TV...where the guy with a mustache from the show Simon&Simon went on a hunt in Africa for a leopard. They tied a piece of meat up and hid in a shack. When the leopard came along and was eating the meat they shot it from far away with it never knowing it was there. Worst part was that after they killed it they walked up and looked at it and said "what a beautiful animal". I kept thinking...IT WAS until you idiots killed it!

    Anyway rant over...hopefully the fine will change their practice and the practice of others.
    Originally Posted by XC62701
    Agreed...make it longer. I want to know death is an option

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okie Dokie View Post
    ...hopefully the fine will change their practice and the practice of others.
    Not likely..... with clients paying $20k to shoot an elk, $50k to shoot a bighorn sheep, I'm sure there's some A-hole with too much money willing to shoot a mountain lion

  5. #5
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    What kind of knife did they use to kill the mountain lion?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by highrevkev View Post
    Not likely..... with clients paying $20k to shoot an elk, $50k to shoot a bighorn sheep, I'm sure there's some A-hole with too much money willing to shoot a mountain lion
    agreed 1000%.

    That's page 36 of their catalog on schitt to kill.

    $136k fine? Pfft. Shut em down.

    fc

  7. #7
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    My buddy who bow hunts told me you can actually pay to setup killing a record size buck and wind up in a publication called Boone and Crockett as a record holder.

  8. #8
    heaven help me
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    Tejon Ranch is huge. I say it is time to build trails there and save the mountain lions.

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    Go get that KOM "You Deserve" - http://www.digitalepo.com/index.php

  10. #10
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    they should be protected against this sort of thing imo...

    edited--i think the mtn lions should be protected from this sort of killing. i'm fine with hunting as long as the populations are managed to ensure that the impacted species are thriving. similar to what the bird hunters do in the central valley....the enviros and hunters are actually working very closely together since they are aligned to want the populations to increase and thrive...and the hunters have all the $$...
    Last edited by cohenfive; 02-13-2012 at 11:16 AM.

  11. #11
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    Well, it seems to me that the price paid by the hunters to kill their prey also incentivizes the ranch to manage the population so that they flourish. I don't really see that as a bad thing. As for the mountain lions killings, it's obviously appalling.
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  12. #12
    zon
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    Hope y'all complaining about meat raised for sale are vegetarians. Just sayin.





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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okie Dokie View Post
    I should clarify...i have no problem with hunting when people are eating what they kill. Or even to manage populations, disease, pests, etc. But this is just pure greed and laziness...and the cats are the ones who suffered because of it.

    I just am not a fan of people who say "I want to kill a bear". When I ask why they usually don't have an answer. When I ask do they really think it is hunting when they are using a high-powered rifle from a long way off? Or when the bear is hiding in a tree? Again there is not much of an answer.

    This reminds me of a hunting show I saw on TV...where the guy with a mustache from the show Simon&Simon went on a hunt in Africa for a leopard. They tied a piece of meat up and hid in a shack. When the leopard came along and was eating the meat they shot it from far away with it never knowing it was there. Worst part was that after they killed it they walked up and looked at it and said "what a beautiful animal". I kept thinking...IT WAS until you idiots killed it!

    Anyway rant over...hopefully the fine will change their practice and the practice of others.
    Yeah, in Texas where my parent's live it's totally out of control. They make deer-hoppers that feed the deer at specific times to "train" them to come around at a certain time (to be shot). It's ridiculous how "serious" they take it and how much damn camo there is. If you've ever been to this part of Texas, you may know that the deer population is huge, and maybe it does need some resonable controlling, but it would be just about as sporting to dig a frickin hole in the ground and just wait till one falls in. I remember when I was a kid I shot a wild turkey in the neck with a pellet rifle and we ate it. From that point on I was simply not interested in hunting, there's just no real challenge in it, except "waiting", but what a horrible way to spend your time if that's what it is. People have semi auto shotguns, camo-everything, turkey calls, and all sorts of stupid devices, and I "took one" with a frickin pellet rifle. Hunting probably serves some animal instincts, but by all accounts, I think it's pretty boring. This from someone who likes to shoot firearms and was in the Army.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by zon View Post
    Hope y'all complaining about meat raised for sale are vegetarians. Just sayin.





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    I wonder how Elk tastes
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    I wonder how Elk tastes
    While hiking the PCT in 2003, a buddy tossed me some dried, ground elk, which I promptly mixed in with my Mac N Cheese. Tasted better without it.

    -D

  16. #16
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    What the Tejon Ranch did is not unique. Hundreds of ranchers do the same thing every year throughout California and the western U.S.

    The error was getting caught. Most ranchers are smart enough to Shoot, Shovel, and Shut Up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Okie Dokie View Post
    ...And who the hell pays 20k to kill an elk? You gotta be kidding me.

    Tejon Ranch to pay fine for killing mountain lions - latimes.com
    The same kind of person who spends thousands of dollars flying all over the world to ride a mountain bike trail.

    If it is your passion and you can afford it, then go for it.

  18. #18
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    Wait until the wolves start coming back and stealing babies. Or was that dingos.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan G. View Post
    Wait until the wolves start coming back and stealing babies. Or was that dingos.
    I thought that was obama, or was it republicans?

    I always get those two confused...

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by norton55 View Post
    Tejon Ranch is huge. I say it is time to build trails there and save the mountain lions.

    They are in fact re-routing the Pacific Crest Trail thru Tejon Ranch, not that it helps us MTBers at all. Maybe they will give the us MTBers the sloppy seconds of the discarded PCT.

    $136,500 fine to the Tejon Ranch is nothing.

    Dean

  21. #21
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    aww hell. Now I gotta find a dingo knife...
    Poaching Demo...that's why we can't have nice things...

  22. #22
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    Dingo Knife it is!

    Amazon.com: Tops Knives Desert Dingo Knife Model DTDO-01: Sports & Outdoors

    Tried to post just the image but I could not figure it out.
    Originally Posted by XC62701
    Agreed...make it longer. I want to know death is an option

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okie Dokie View Post
    This reminds me of a hunting show I saw on TV...where the guy with a mustache from the show Simon&Simon went on a hunt in Africa for a leopard. They tied a piece of meat up and hid in a shack. When the leopard came along and was eating the meat they shot it from far away with it never knowing it was there. Worst part was that after they killed it they walked up and looked at it and said "what a beautiful animal". I kept thinking...IT WAS until you idiots killed it!
    Hates me some leopards. Hey back up, thars nuther wun
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  24. #24
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    Elk is great, just sayin.

  25. #25
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    Elk is good for steaks if you like them rare, otherwise it just dries out and loses its flavor once you try to cook a little longer. I prefer buffalo though for most of my exotic meat needs.

  26. #26
    zon
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    I wonder how Elk tastes
    Yummy,, super lean, no game taste, way better than beef.



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  27. #27
    zon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okie Dokie View Post
    ...Tops Knives Desert Dingo Knife Model DTDO-01: Sports & Outdoors[/url]

    Tried to post just the image but I could not figure it out.
    Like this:

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  28. #28
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    Gotta get me some elk meat then.
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  29. #29
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    Where we get our Elk and Buffalo from, Elk Meat from Jackson Hole. I'm sure someone else has a more local solution.

  30. #30
    fc
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    Tejon Ranch


    They're all about 'conservation'
    Conservation | Tejon Ranch

    The only reason this killing was revealed was a 'whistleblower' spoke up.

    Hunting is halted for now. Tejon Hunt Can we keep it that way? It's a public company that generates $2 million a year in hunting revenue. Predictions are hunting will be reopened by fall 2012.

    fc
    Last edited by fc; 02-16-2012 at 02:32 PM.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Gotta get me some elk meat then.
    I have a freezer full. Come on over!
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  32. #32
    zon
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    Yeah,, no elk this year,, bunch of venison tho!!




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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by zon View Post
    Yeah,, no elk this year,, bunch of venison tho!!




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    Elk is venison, bro. Venison is a general term for various kinds of deer and elk.
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  34. #34
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    Do NOT pay this fine to the Califor nia Game and Fish department, who are nothing but organized crime syndicate guilty of extortion and racketeering. Thank God some people on this ranch have enough common sense to weed out the useless feeders like mountain lions to protect true game that has value. This narc is an enemy of all thinking people.
    Love the comments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zon View Post
    Hope y'all complaining about meat raised for sale are vegetarians. Just sayin.
    Thanks Zon! Glad it wasn't me who said it first.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Elk is venison, bro. Venison is a general term for various kinds of deer and elk.
    Thanks for the info. I did not know this. Of course there was no elk hunting where I grew up. And for the record, bear meat is not very good. Stew worthy, but does not make a good steak and makes REALLY greasy sausage.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by zon View Post
    Hope y'all complaining about meat raised for sale are vegetarians. Just sayin.
    That's an awfully broad generalization Zon. Most industrial feed lot operations are nasty -for their neighbors, for consumers, for the environment and for the animals that they "manufacture"- and are deserving of complaints and more. Some of the work I do is to educate consumers on these issues as well as change the way that livestock is produced, and I'm no vegetarian. In fact, I grew up on a working cattle ranch in Colorado and have killed my share of cattle and wild game for meat. That doesn't mean that I can't "complain" about how meat is produced, in fact I have every right and even an expectation to do so, for my health and yours. I think you'd agree. For what it's worth, I eat my fair share of meat, but I try my best to find, and am willing to pay more for, meat that is naturally, sustainably, and ethically raised.

    As for Tejon Ranch shooting lions, I despise trophy game hunting operations like this (but not most subsistence hunting). My great-grandfather and grandfather were big trophy hunters and would go on months-long expeditions to Africa, Alaska, Canada and the Montana/Wyoming Rockies from the mid 30's up to the start of WW 2. I grew up with the stories, the pictures, the guns and the "game house" full of trophy mounts (you can see some of the animals that they shot in the NY Museum of Natural History). I also had to deal with poachers on the ranch I lived on and the Jackwagons (to borrow the term from an older MTBR thread) that shoot at anything that moves, including our herd (and at least twice, me). The size of the animals that my family shot are noticeably larger than those that you will find in the wild today. Killing for the joy of it (there's little skill involved in operations like Tejon Ranch's) and killing the best specimens -simply to brag and hang a head on a wall- is not only pathetic, but weakens the game species that they are hunting. And to try to exterminate another key species in an ecosystem simply to make more money for the fat, lazy "hunters" that are their client base is abhorrent to me.

    For what it's worth, I haven't gone hunting in years, but if I do go out and get an elk tag in the next year or two, I'll apply for a cow tag for the meat. I don't need or want a trophy animal just to brag to my friends... I just know that I've forgotten everything about field dressing and am sure to make a mess of things.
    Last edited by huntermos; 02-16-2012 at 11:06 PM. Reason: i cant spel...

  38. #38
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    Best piece of meat I ever had was venison served in a small french restaurant in Incline Village Tahoe. Basically melted in my mouth.

    Like I said I have no problem with hunting for food...or even to manage a population or to keep it healthy.

    I have a good friend who hunts quite a bit...and they use muzzle loader guns which from what I hear makes it much more difficult. They have to be much closer and it more truly resembles a "hunt" then just a "kill".
    Originally Posted by XC62701
    Agreed...make it longer. I want to know death is an option

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    The only reason this killing was revealed was a 'whistleblower' spoke up.

    fc
    By whistle blower, you mean liberal d-bag granola eatin tree huggin dipshit... These are the same a-holes who want to cut off land available to Mt. Bikers. Sierra club does many great things

    The only reason what they did was illegal, is because they didn't bother to go through the beaurocratic BS of getting a "Depredation" permit. Many ranchers obtain these permits all over the country to protect their livestock or animals that generate income for them. In this case, wild game on the property generates income, so they were protecting it.

    The really sad thing is that we are policed to death about what we do on our own property...

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebnash View Post
    By whistle blower, you mean liberal d-bag granola eatin tree huggin dipshit... These are the same a-holes who want to cut off land available to Mt. Bikers. Sierra club does many great things

    The only reason what they did was illegal, is because they didn't bother to go through the beaurocratic BS of getting a "Depredation" permit. Many ranchers obtain these permits all over the country to protect their livestock or animals that generate income for them. In this case, wild game on the property generates income, so they were protecting it.

    The really sad thing is that we are policed to death about what we do on our own property...
    Hey now, too early for that.

    fc

  41. #41
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    Read the story ebnash and you will see that you have the facts wrong. The whistleblower was one of the guides who helps hunters on the ranch. A hunter himself. Even he became uncomfortable with the killing of the mountain lions....which puts it into perspective a bit doesn't it?

    And I doubt very much that they would have gotten Depredation permits to kill 30 mtn lions.
    Originally Posted by XC62701
    Agreed...make it longer. I want to know death is an option

  42. #42
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    I live in the coastal hills, I can remember when we had a federal trapper that lived up the ridge from me. With the lack of mountain lions our deer population exploded. After a couple of years the deer population got bluetongue disease. They were thin and sickly. Fast forward to today. Since they have allowed the lions to return, the deer population is in balance and the buck's are much bigger and healthier.


    It's all about balance.

  43. #43
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    So ranchers pay $13k per illegal mtn lion, while people pay them 20k per legal elk kill ??
    With those incentives, of course they are gonna kill lions to keep them from eating every ~week what would grow up to be $20,000 in their pocket.

    This is why California needs to drop prop 13 and tax these idiots of that big old piece of land once and for all. Why should we all pay 10% sales and income tax to support enforcement of these guys 'ownership' of a bunch of land and animals while they break laws and milk it.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by norton55 View Post
    I live in the coastal hills, I can remember when we had a federal trapper that lived up the ridge from me. With the lack of mountain lions our deer population exploded. After a couple of years the deer population got bluetongue disease. They were thin and sickly. Fast forward to today. Since they have allowed the lions to return, the deer population is in balance and the buck's are much bigger and healthier.


    It's all about balance.
    It's not all about balance when it's someones private property.

    If this was a ranch with someones cows getting slaughtered by wild animals, everyone would support the ranchers efforts to protect his livestock.

    It's not much different, here.
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  45. #45
    ebnash
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okie Dokie View Post
    Read the story ebnash and you will see that you have the facts wrong. The whistleblower was one of the guides who helps hunters on the ranch. A hunter himself. Even he became uncomfortable with the killing of the mountain lions....which puts it into perspective a bit doesn't it?

    And I doubt very much that they would have gotten Depredation permits to kill 30 mtn lions.
    Agreed, I did not read the story until just now. Kind of confusing that the guide brought up the complaint and charges when there is a picture of him posing with what looks like a proud kill???

    It's all relative to what your beliefs are in hunting practices, but 20 mountain lions in 6 years does not seem excessive, but I cannot argue with the fact that they did so outside of the law. I believe they could have legally obtained 3-4 permits per year without too much hassle. Right here in Santa Clara County, professional hunters are hired by county offices to execute feral pigs around Santa Clara Water works property near Calaveras Reservior. These guys kill 100's of pigs in a couple months and get paid by our government because the pigs cause damage to the land from rooting and take away food from the local deer population.

    In theory, they could develop a limited season and issue tags for this wilderness area and allow hunters to control the population who would surely eat most of the kills. The DFG has all kinds of limited tags that get issued based on a lottery system for other areas.

    I am a little confused that it took this many years for this guy to come forward if he was really uncomfortable with the acts that took place. I think there could be some other agenda, but only the involved know what happened out there.

    My appologies for jumping to the conclusion that acitivists were involved...

  46. #46
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    I think people can hunt responsibly and there's nothing wrong with that for the record.

    Feral pigs deserve to be slaughtered with reckless abandon. This comes from the son of an active member of the California Native Plant Society. I'm not a member, they walk really slow and stop to look at plants every 20 yards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    If this was a ranch with someones cows getting slaughtered by wild animals, everyone would support the ranchers efforts to protect his livestock..
    Not everyone would be supportive. Now if some deer were chomping on my little kale leaves, that's a different story!
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    If this was a ranch with someones cows getting slaughtered by wild animals, everyone would support the ranchers efforts to protect his livestock.
    As a former "rancher," we knew that we may have the occasional loss due to predation and knew that it was the cost of doing business. The Fed used lethal poisoning on coyotes in the area, which resulted in the death of a lot of other animals, especially birds, the occasional pet dog and at least one of our working dogs, and used traps on occasion, one of which I just barely managed to avoid stepping in and losing my right foot. In the 80's we took these things for granted, but even then we were sometimes uncomfortable with the unintended consequences of their use. Now that they've stopped using these methods in many places, the population of raptors and other wildlife has rebounded and the region if more "in balance," like it should be. Today, there are effective non-lethal methods to protect herds, but most ranchers don't use them (why would be an interesting sociological study). I DON'T support the livestock industry's attempts to kill every predator out there and the fact that many of them are constantly whining and crying that they are being put out of business by predators is ridiculous -so much for the macho, manly image of the cowboy. The fact is that the vast majority of livestock deaths are from eating the wrong feed, lack of attention to their herd's health, problems with calving, and crappy fencing maintenance, in short, many livestock owners are lazy when it comes to taking care of their "investment." One of the main reasons for this is that their operations are heavily subsidized by the Fed (ironic since most of them tend to be of the "no welfare" conservative bent), they can write off the loss, and they can often get reimbursed for reporting animal's deaths as being caused by predators. It a great way to get paid for one's laziness and stupidity. For what it's worth, studies (and perhaps more importantly, the experience of trappers in the Predator Control Programs) prove that the most vilified predators such as wolves and mt. lions are responsible for a TINY fraction of livestock deaths. Even the much hated coyote kills far less cattle than bad weather:

    Frankly, our time and money would better spent trying to figure out how to teach cattle how to use inhalers for their respiratory ailments! This is a great read for anyone that wants to learn more about predators and the livestock industry in the West: Carter Niemeyer - Wolfer The author was a government trapper for decades and has seen it all.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    It's not all about balance when it's someones private property.
    Ah yes, the old "I can do anything I want on my private property" argument... No offense meant IHB, but I'll never understand this viewpoint. By extension of the logic of this belief, I can buy the property next to your house, and start up a 24 hour a day, 365 a year gravel pit operation, or cut down every tree and pave the entire acreage with sewage, or any number of other things that may have a negative impact on your quality of life, property value, health, etc. How does one decide which property owner is allowed to do what they want with their land, to the detriment of and against the wishes of the other? As for agricultural lands, any operation, whether it be predator control, planting GMO or non-native crops, utilizing fertilizers/and or non-organic chemicals, or how the land is prepared and utilized will have unintended and often negative impacts in and on the areas surrounding it. The natural world doesn't recognize imaginary lines on maps or stop at fence lines. Anything a ranch or farm does on it's land needs to be looked at with an eye to how that will impact the ecosystem as a whole, how it will effect their neighbors, and how it will effect people downstream, both in a literal sense and as consumers.

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    Some of you might be interested in this. I'm in the process of digitizing and organizing the footage from my family's hunting expeditions and this is just a sampling of the 8 hours of material I'm going through. My grandfather is the blond kid with glasses and during the Africa safari, he shot the world recording holding lion at the age of 16. Don't know how long that record stood, but that lion was mounted, as a rug, on the wall of the "game house" when I was growing up. This was considered "sport" among the 1%er's of the pre-WW 2 generation. In North America, they (my family) would track and shoot their game, but on the Africa safari, they also used baits and stands, a fact that my grandfather later expressed some regret about.

    Just a warning, there's about 10 minutes of silent footage in here, it can put one to sleep...
    Sykes Family Archival Sample Clips - YouTube

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by zon View Post
    Yummy,, super lean, no game taste, way better than beef.



    .
    Well that sucks, the fat in beef is what makes it so tender and yummy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    As a former "rancher," we knew that we may have the occasional loss due to predation and knew that it was the cost of doing business. The Fed used lethal poisoning on coyotes in the area, which resulted in the death of a lot of other animals, especially birds, the occasional pet dog and at least one of our working dogs, and used traps on occasion, one of which I just barely managed to avoid stepping in and losing my right foot. In the 80's we took these things for granted, but even then we were sometimes uncomfortable with the unintended consequences of their use. Now that they've stopped using these methods in many places, the population of raptors and other wildlife has rebounded and the region if more "in balance," like it should be. Today, there are effective non-lethal methods to protect herds, but most ranchers don't use them (why would be an interesting sociological study). I DON'T support the livestock industry's attempts to kill every predator out there and the fact that many of them are constantly whining and crying that they are being put out of business by predators is ridiculous -so much for the macho, manly image of the cowboy. The fact is that the vast majority of livestock deaths are from eating the wrong feed, lack of attention to their herd's health, problems with calving, and crappy fencing maintenance, in short, many livestock owners are lazy when it comes to taking care of their "investment." One of the main reasons for this is that their operations are heavily subsidized by the Fed (ironic since most of them tend to be of the "no welfare" conservative bent), they can write off the loss, and they can often get reimbursed for reporting animal's deaths as being caused by predators. It a great way to get paid for one's laziness and stupidity. For what it's worth, studies (and perhaps more importantly, the experience of trappers in the Predator Control Programs) prove that the most vilified predators such as wolves and mt. lions are responsible for a TINY fraction of livestock deaths. Even the much hated coyote kills far less cattle than bad weather:

    Frankly, our time and money would better spent trying to figure out how to teach cattle how to use inhalers for their respiratory ailments! This is a great read for anyone that wants to learn more about predators and the livestock industry in the West: Carter Niemeyer - Wolfer The author was a government trapper for decades and has seen it all.



    Ah yes, the old "I can do anything I want on my private property" argument... No offense meant IHB, but I'll never understand this viewpoint. By extension of the logic of this belief, I can buy the property next to your house, and start up a 24 hour a day, 365 a year gravel pit operation, or cut down every tree and pave the entire acreage with sewage, or any number of other things that may have a negative impact on your quality of life, property value, health, etc. How does one decide which property owner is allowed to do what they want with their land, to the detriment of and against the wishes of the other? As for agricultural lands, any operation, whether it be predator control, planting GMO or non-native crops, utilizing fertilizers/and or non-organic chemicals, or how the land is prepared and utilized will have unintended and often negative impacts in and on the areas surrounding it. The natural world doesn't recognize imaginary lines on maps or stop at fence lines. Anything a ranch or farm does on it's land needs to be looked at with an eye to how that will impact the ecosystem as a whole, how it will effect their neighbors, and how it will effect people downstream, both in a literal sense and as consumers.
    In a very literal sense, farming and ranching are by their very nature, not balanced with the environment. this is not a bad thing.

    The deer are the property of the ranch owners. using your own analogy - how about if I moved next door to you and killed your pets? Would you be right in defending them?

    your environmentalist argument really doesnt apply.
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    based on that graph, ranchers would be better off shooting thieves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    In a very literal sense, farming and ranching are by their very nature, not balanced with the environment. this is not a bad thing.

    The deer are the property of the ranch owners. using your own analogy - how about if I moved next door to you and killed your pets? Would you be right in defending them?

    your environmentalist argument really doesnt apply.
    The deer are not the property of the ranch owners, nor are they restricted to any one land owner's property. Wild game are the property of the state (individual states that is, not the Fed per se) and this has been upheld, repeatedly, by the Supreme Court (starting with the Geer v Connecticut case in 1896). If they were the property of the land owner upon who's land they happen to stand upon at a given moment, an individual animal could have upwards of dozens of "owners" a day... After all, game animals such as deer and elk, and the predators that feed on them, don't just sit in one place, day after day; they move, often long distances, to find better food, reliable water, to mate, to reduce overpopulation pressures, to find their own territory, to escape human activity, etc, etc. One can't "manage" animal populations as if they're in a zoo and to think that "we"can is human hubris at its best.

    Your analogy makes no sense. Enlighten me. Are you saying that the wild game on the Tejon Ranch are pets, or that the cougars are my "pets" and are on your property?

    Lastly, it's not an "environmentalist" argument, it's an environmental argument and it is absolutely apropos to this situation. Everything in the natural world is linked -cause and effect is the rule- and what occurs on your private land can have major impacts on other systems and other people; whether it be wildlife management or building chemical plants in the middle of residential neighborhoods because it's "my land and I can do what I want on it." A person can keep on being self-centered and only focused on their immediate self-gratification or they can attempt to mitigate their impacts and behavior so that all 7 BILLION + (there were less than 1 billion humans at the founding of our Nation) of us can continue to enjoy (or at least aspire to) a comfortable quality of life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    based on that graph, ranchers would be better off shooting thieves.
    Ha!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ebnash View Post
    Right here in Santa Clara County, professional hunters are hired by county offices to execute feral pigs around Santa Clara Water works property near Calaveras Reservior. These guys kill 100's of pigs in a couple months and get paid by our government because the pigs cause damage to the land from rooting and take away food from the local deer population
    Fascinating discussion in here... anyway, just felt a need to respond to this small point - feral pigs are an invasive, non-native species, whereas mountain lions are legally classified as "specially protected species". Generally, mountain lions can only be killed if they pose a public safety threat, and a rancher may contact the CDFG to get a depredation permit if they feel there is a threat to their livestock. That would have been the right way to go about it. Since this is a hunting outfit, they probably took it upon themselves, and dare I say got some enjoyment out of doing it, too. Who knows, perhaps there were special paying clients who got in on the action.

    I just read an interesting thing, too -

    "When wolves, coyotes, or lions prey on these over-populated and defenseless livestock herds, ranchers can legally kill the predatory wildlife themselves or make a phone call and have a tax-payer-funded professional come out and kill the nearest wolves, coyotes, or lions. Every state except for Florida allows these depredation retaliation kills on mountain lions even though the scientific community by and large agrees it will not prevent future losses. Mountain lions are territorial and when one is killed, a new lion will move in to fill the space -- usually a younger and more curious cat -- and may continue the cycle of livestock losses and having lions killed. Shooting a lion does not undo the death of a domestic animal, does not prevent future depredation attacks, and costs tax payer money."

    Mountain Lion Foundation
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    The deer are not the property of the ranch owners, nor are they restricted to any one land owner's property. Wild game are the property of the state (individual states that is, not the Fed per se) and this has been upheld, repeatedly, by the Supreme Court (starting with the Geer v Connecticut case in 1896). If they were the property of the land owner upon who's land they happen to stand upon at a given moment, an individual animal could have upwards of dozens of "owners" a day... After all, game animals such as deer and elk, and the predators that feed on them, don't just sit in one place, day after day; they move, often long distances, to find better food, reliable water, to mate, to reduce overpopulation pressures, to find their own territory, to escape human activity, etc, etc. One can't "manage" animal populations as if they're in a zoo and to think that "we"can is human hubris at its best.

    Your analogy makes no sense. Enlighten me. Are you saying that the wild game on the Tejon Ranch are pets, or that the cougars are my "pets" and are on your property?

    Lastly, it's not an "environmentalist" argument, it's an environmental argument and it is absolutely apropos to this situation. Everything in the natural world is linked -cause and effect is the rule- and what occurs on your private land can have major impacts on other systems and other people; whether it be wildlife management or building chemical plants in the middle of residential neighborhoods because it's "my land and I can do what I want on it." A person can keep on being self-centered and only focused on their immediate self-gratification or they can attempt to mitigate their impacts and behavior so that all 7 BILLION + (there were less than 1 billion humans at the founding of our Nation) of us can continue to enjoy (or at least aspire to) a comfortable quality of life.
    These are not indigenous animals. There were brought to the fenced off ranch from yellow stone for the specific purpose of hunting.

    This is absolutely a property rights issue. Not an environmental issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    These are not indigenous animals. There were brought to the fenced off ranch from yellow stone for the specific purpose of hunting.

    This is absolutely a property rights issue. Not an environmental issue.
    "In 1966, the Department of Fish and Game (DFG) issued a permit for the release of 300 Rocky Mountain Elk imported from Yellowstone National Park into a fenced compound on a game farm ranch in southern Kern County. By 1967, 290 elk had been shipped from Yellowstone, but due to the stress of transport and possibly other causes, only 277 survived to be released inside the ranch enclosure. Many elk died within the enclosure from several diseases brought on by stress induced by confinement, as well as a new and different diet. Later that year elk began escaping because of the lack of fence maintenance. It is not known exactly how many animals escaped to the wild (California Fish and Game, 61(4):239-241. 1975).

    According to DFG’s Elk and Pronghorn Coordinator, Joe Hobbs, approximately 200 animals currently reside in this area in an around the Tejon Ranch. Elk game farming is no longer allowed in California. The Tejon Ranch runs their elk hunting through the DFG’s Private Lands Management Program (PLM). In exchange for conducting habitat improvement projects on their land that benefit wildlife, landowners can receive special PLM elk tags each year. The numbers and types of tags correspond to the population level of elk and the current conditions on the ranch. Elk in this area may have an earlier rutting season due to the warmer weather in Southern California." Source: wildlife management | California Outdoors Q and A

    I suppose that the lions and all of the other animals, game or not, were also "imported" and live within a fenced operation and therefore are "private property," law and precedent be damned?

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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    "In 1966, the Department of Fish and Game (DFG) issued a permit for the release of 300 Rocky Mountain Elk imported from Yellowstone National Park into a fenced compound on a game farm ranch in southern Kern County. By 1967, 290 elk had been shipped from Yellowstone, but due to the stress of transport and possibly other causes, only 277 survived to be released inside the ranch enclosure. Many elk died within the enclosure from several diseases brought on by stress induced by confinement, as well as a new and different diet. Later that year elk began escaping because of the lack of fence maintenance. It is not known exactly how many animals escaped to the wild (California Fish and Game, 61(4):239-241. 1975).

    According to DFG’s Elk and Pronghorn Coordinator, Joe Hobbs, approximately 200 animals currently reside in this area in an around the Tejon Ranch. Elk game farming is no longer allowed in California. The Tejon Ranch runs their elk hunting through the DFG’s Private Lands Management Program (PLM). In exchange for conducting habitat improvement projects on their land that benefit wildlife, landowners can receive special PLM elk tags each year. The numbers and types of tags correspond to the population level of elk and the current conditions on the ranch. Elk in this area may have an earlier rutting season due to the warmer weather in Southern California." Source: wildlife management | California Outdoors Q and A

    I suppose that the lions and all of the other animals, game or not, were also "imported" and live within a fenced operation and therefore are "private property," law and precedent be damned?
    your post proves my point. These are not wild animals, they are game animals brought here by the ranch, for the purposes of hunting. They are kept in a gated environment, separate from the natural environment.

    They are basically free roaming livestock.
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    No they're not. The elk live OUTSIDE the original fencing that was built to keep them and while some of the fencing is still in existence, it is my understanding that it is no barrier to any of the animals that frequent the area. The elk's legal standing, and the way that they are managed under state and federal rules and guidelines means that they are property of the state, and by extension the citizens of the state -that being you and me- and Tejon Ranch is allowed to hunt limited numbers of them by permission of the Department of fish and Game. They can't just go out and shoot as many of them as they'd like, whenever they'd like, they can't round them up and ship them off to a meat packing plant, and they certainly can't shoot predators that prey on them without permits and justification just because they want to increase the number of hunting permits they can sell to their clients (which was the original topic of this thread). Tejon's ownership of these elk, such as it was, ended when the elk escaped their "poorly maintained" enclosure and became free-roaming animals and the severance of this ownership was further solidified when the state made "game farming" illegal. Also, Tejon Ranch's operations include guided hunts for native deer, turkey, bear, bobcat, antelope and other species as well as for non-native hogs. They illegally killed mt. lions because they prey on some of these other species as well -especially deer- and not just because of elk depredation, which ironically is not their preferred meal; deer are!

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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    your post proves my point. These are not wild animals, they are game animals brought here by the ranch, for the purposes of hunting. They are kept in a gated environment, separate from the natural environment.

    They are basically free roaming livestock.

    That seems kind of moot. The ranch owners didn't have a right to just systematically start shooting lions without permits. And if you could consider the elk livestock, that should have made getting depredation permits all the easier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    No they're not. The elk live OUTSIDE the original fencing that was built to keep them and while some of the fencing is still in existence, it is my understanding that it is no barrier to any of the animals that frequent the area. The elk's legal standing, and the way that they are managed under state and federal rules and guidelines means that they are property of the state, and by extension the citizens of the state -that being you and me- and Tejon Ranch is allowed to hunt limited numbers of them by permission of the Department of fish and Game. They can't just go out and shoot as many of them as they'd like, whenever they'd like, they can't round them up and ship them off to a meat packing plant, and they certainly can't shoot predators that prey on them without permits and justification just because they want to increase the number of hunting permits they can sell to their clients (which was the original topic of this thread). Tejon's ownership of these elk, such as it was, ended when the elk escaped their "poorly maintained" enclosure and became free-roaming animals and the severance of this ownership was further solidified when the state made "game farming" illegal. Also, Tejon Ranch's operations include guided hunts for native deer, turkey, bear, bobcat, antelope and other species as well as for non-native hogs. They illegally killed mt. lions because they prey on some of these other species as well -especially deer- and not just because of elk depredation, which ironically is not their preferred meal; deer are!
    well, ownership of the deer is what drove me to the private property argument. I read the same article you did and came to a different conclusion. You're probably right about the ownership of the deer, though.

    edit - all this talk about deer has made me hungry. I'm thawing out some venison for tonights dinner!
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    The thing that amazes me in this case is that by all accounts, mountain lions are not that easy to hunt and kill. Even in states where hunting them is legal, my understanding is that you need trained dogs, and to be prepared for covering some pretty rough terrain. From reading the article, I can only surmise that a decision was made to systematically go after the lions. I'd say the ranch owners / managers got off easy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    well, ownership of the deer is what drove me to the private property argument. I read the same article you did and came to a different conclusion. You're probably right about the ownership of the deer, though.

    edit - all this talk about deer has made me hungry. I'm thawing out some venison for tonights dinner!
    I never did acquire the taste for deer venison, but that's probably because the mulies that we hunted had a thing for sage brush, rabbit brush and other bitter plants that made them exceptionally gamey. I do love a good elk steak (they like the sweet and succulent grasses instead) and the farm raised deer I've tasted wasn't bad. Would love to eat some elk, it's been awhile! What species of deer, and where, do you hunt?

    I should point out that the article I posted above (if that's what you are referring to) was a response to a question from a guy who was seeing elk wandering around his community and the lands between his home and Tejon Ranch; and that the answer states that "200 animals currently reside in this area in an(d) around the Tejon Ranch" which, to me, clearly states that the elk go where they'd like without being restricted by any fencing enclosure within the Ranch itself. It's also clear from the answer that these elk are descended from stock that was imported to the Ranch in 1966.
    Last edited by huntermos; 02-17-2012 at 05:56 PM.

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    Just when you thought our discussion of shooting mountain lions was over, this happens.

    Incidentally, I think this discussion has been one of the best and most insightful in recent memory. For the record, I have no problem with hunting as long as the meat is eaten but I will never understand killing just to kill. I think it's a symptom of small penis disease.

    Those old Super 8 clips were amazing Huntermos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCallahan View Post
    The thing that amazes me in this case is that by all accounts, mountain lions are not that easy to hunt and kill. Even in states where hunting them is legal, my understanding is that you need trained dogs, and to be prepared for covering some pretty rough terrain. From reading the article, I can only surmise that a decision was made to systematically go after the lions. I'd say the ranch owners / managers got off easy.
    That's what I was I thinking as well. How the hell do you hunt a lion without scenting/baiting/trapping?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Hungus View Post
    Just when you thought our discussion of shooting mountain lions was over, this happens.

    Incidentally, I think this discussion has been one of the best and most insightful in recent memory. For the record, I have no problem with hunting as long as the meat is eaten but I will never understand killing just to kill. I think it's a symptom of small penis disease.

    Those old Super 8 clips were amazing Huntermos.
    Just read the article when it hit the front page of today's local section (Merc). Legal or not, it was a pretty tone deaf move on Richards' part. I find it hard to imagine smiling like that, after having just killed such a magnificent creature for sport.

    -D
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    Some of you might be interested in this. I'm in the process of digitizing and organizing the footage from my family's hunting expeditions and this is just a sampling of the 8 hours of material I'm going through. My grandfather is the blond kid with glasses and during the Africa safari, he shot the world recording holding lion at the age of 16. Don't know how long that record stood, but that lion was mounted, as a rug, on the wall of the "game house" when I was growing up. This was considered "sport" among the 1%er's of the pre-WW 2 generation. In North America, they (my family) would track and shoot their game, but on the Africa safari, they also used baits and stands, a fact that my grandfather later expressed some regret about.

    Just a warning, there's about 10 minutes of silent footage in here, it can put one to sleep...
    Sykes Family Archival Sample Clips - YouTube
    Great video! That thing has something for everyone, and it covers a lot of ground. You certainly get the sense of the feeling of "endless bounty" that folks used to have, regarding our resources and wildlife. It must have seemed never ending back then.

    -D

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Hungus View Post
    That's what I was I thinking as well. How the hell do you hunt a lion without scenting/baiting/trapping?
    Typically you need a pack of trained dogs and you need to find a trail. My father in law hunts up in Wyoming and has been on a few lion hunts but not ever caught up to one. What you do is go out with the dogs, try to pick up a track, then turn the dogs loose and try to keep up. The dogs are big, long legged scent type hounds, and they bark - picture a beefy fox hound or 'coon hound and you've got the picture. Lions aren't great distance runners, but chases still can involve hours because the track you find may be hours old, so it has a big head start and doesn't want to be found. Lions also tend to favor rugged terrain, so chasing the dogs, often in snow or at altitude is tough.

    I've heard of some hunters simply putting a radio collar on their dogs and waiting for them to stop moving, assuming that means they've treed a lion. That strikes me as not very sporting, and also shows a disregard for the dogs.

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    Elk; etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel~ View Post
    Just read the article when it hit the front page of today's local section (Merc). Legal or not, it was a pretty tone deaf move on Richards' part. I find it hard to imagine smiling like that, after having just killed such a magnificent creature for sport.

    -D
    I had the same feeling; sort of like the head of the DEA getting photographed taking a toke in Amsterdam. I wish. Explains why the DF&G is fast and loose with those Predation Permits. (I remember a cougar being killed near Blossom Hill last year on the premise that it killed a goat and wondering WTF)

    I'm still hoping to see an elk at Coe; My son and were privileged to see a couple of bulls at nearby Pacheco State Park in June, 2010 while riding our bikes there. Our first view (and this may have been a different animal) was from about a mile away when my son said "look, there's a horse way over there". I finally saw the "horse" but it had antlers---way too big to be a deer!

    We didn't think too much more about the sighting until about an hour later when we were trying to boon-dock our way back to some sort of a trail (the mapped trail we had been on was completely obscured due to disuse) we spotted these guys a couple ridges over:
    Photobucket
    What elk?

    Photobucket
    This is the best zoom my old point-and-shoot could manage!

    Photobucket
    The first picture cropped.

    Photobucket
    Another cropped picture. The wind is at our backs so the elk most likely knew of our presence by our scent

    Photobucket
    "Let's see if we can get closer" said I; after another half hour of flanking them (walking our bikes!) to get out of our upwind position we came face to face maybe 20 yards apart; by the time I dropped my bike and got my camera up they were long gone! They were just this side of the rock on the hill; notice the oats blowing in the crosswind. I think the strong wind helped mask the sound of our approach. No close-up of the elk; but the memory of being so close to them is something I'll always remember. I'm not sure if these were Tule or Roosevelt Elk; not that it matters any!
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    Thanks everyone for keeping this discussion so civil and informative. Special thanks to Huntermos who seems to have written a thesis on this subject

    I had assumed from the beginning that the deer were no longer in a contained area. Perhaps we would not even be having this talk if the Elk had stayed fenced in and they had maintained the fence better?

    Interesting point that has not been addressed is the lack of responsibility of introducing a non-native species to an area as well. Seems Tejon ranch has not been very responsible with much but their own interest for quite some time.
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    Agreed...make it longer. I want to know death is an option

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    This is why California needs to drop prop 13 and tax these idiots of that big old piece of land once and for all. Why should we all pay 10% sales and income tax to support enforcement of these guys 'ownership' of a bunch of land and animals while they break laws and milk it.
    ???????????????????????

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    Thanks OD! Policy research and environmental consulting/filmmaking are my line(s) of work, so I tend too know too much about some things, and nothing about most others...

    Quote Originally Posted by Okie Dokie View Post
    Interesting point that has not been addressed is the lack of responsibility of introducing a non-native species to an area as well. Seems Tejon ranch has not been very responsible with much but their own interest for quite some time.
    Tule elk -which are a subspieces, and smaller than, Roosevelt elk- are native to the Coast Ranges, the Central Valley, and the southern Sierra foothills and were named after the Tule marshes that used to cover most of the southern Central Valley south and west of Bakersfiled, so the Roosevelt elk -as a large ungulate- aren't entirely alien to the ecosystems of the Tejon Ranch. I've read that there are again Tule elk in that region and that some live on Tejon ranch, and that they may interbreed with the Roosevelt elk, but I can't verify that it is true.

    The odds are good that the Elk that P-Burg saw at Coe were Tule elk. Pretty sweet, I'd love to see them out there!

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    good ol' P-Burg...

    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    The odds are good that the Elk that P-Burg saw at Coe were Tule elk. Pretty sweet, I'd love to see them out there!
    ...saw the elk at Pacheco SP but hopes to see them at Coe (a carcass was seen at Coe last year).

    Yes they're almost certainly Tule Elk; I've since found a couple of pretty good web pages, from State Parks:

    http://www.parks.ca.gov/pages/584/fi...WEBREV2011.pdf

    and from DF&G:

    DFG - Hunting - Elk Management Program - Distribution & Range
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    Sorry, I'm lazy and would have mis-spelled your name for sure...

    Just was looking at one of the maps in your links and it shows that the Elk in Tejon are Rocky Mountain elk, not the Roosevelt elk that I had thought they were, not that there is much difference other than that they are the biggest of the 4 sub-species.

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    The Elk that hang around Pacheco SP are likely the same herd that are often hanging around the San Luis state recreation area in-between the dam and the forebay. I've seen them a bunch of times driving on the 152...a few pretty good-sized bulls in the group.


    And ironically enough the best game is usually the younger animals or the females...trophy animals usually taste pretty musky and gamey.

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    Wow I have not checked on this thread in a while. Huntermos has given a very clear view of the situation, from the victim mentality of the rancher to the release and mismanagement by DFG and State Parks of the tule elk in Ca.
    I am a bit surprised there has not been much conversation about what Dan Richards recently did.

    Fish and Game Commission chief slammed for killing mountain lion - Santa Cruz Sentinel

    Yes there are tule elk in Santa Clara County. This image is on Coyote Ridge looking south. This was above Coyote Creek Golf Course, that is Kirby Canyon Landfill in the background. As you drive north on 101 look on the east side of the freeway you just might see them hanging around near the golf course. DT
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails OT:Hunting Ranch Killed Mtn Lions so wouldn't eat their deer...ridiculous!-img_4444s.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by plantguy View Post
    .... I am a bit surprised there has not been much conversation about what Dan Richards recently did.

    Fish and Game Commission chief slammed for killing mountain lion - Santa Cruz Sentinel

    ....
    What Dan Richards did was perfectly legal,, no laws were broken, no rules were violated. He is an avid hunter,, applied for a non-resident tag, and had a successful hunt. Whats the problem??



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    Quote Originally Posted by zon View Post
    What Dan Richards did was perfectly legal,, no laws were broken, no rules were violated. He is an avid hunter,, applied for a non-resident tag, and had a successful hunt. Whats the problem??



    .
    Sometimes, legal can get you in trouble... like PeeWee Herman.

    I'm still waiting for that bike advocate's comeback.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post
    ...saw the elk at Pacheco SP but hopes to see them at Coe (a carcass was seen at Coe last year).

    Yes they're almost certainly Tule Elk; I've since found a couple of pretty good web pages, from State Parks:

    http://www.parks.ca.gov/pages/584/fi...WEBREV2011.pdf

    and from DF&G:

    DFG - Hunting - Elk Management Program - Distribution & Range
    You're just hangin' out in the wrong places.

    Other than mountain lions, these have to be the most elusive and beautiful mammals in the park. They are super skittish, with incredible hearing and an amazing sense of smell. As you mentioned, wind direction is key. Bikes make them harder to spot at Coe, since the stealth factor is reduced, and the elk tend to frequent places where bikes are not allowed.

    -D
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails OT:Hunting Ranch Killed Mtn Lions so wouldn't eat their deer...ridiculous!-2009_04_17_coe_030_cr.jpg  

    OT:Hunting Ranch Killed Mtn Lions so wouldn't eat their deer...ridiculous!-2009_04_17_coe_031_cr2.jpg  

    OT:Hunting Ranch Killed Mtn Lions so wouldn't eat their deer...ridiculous!-2009_04_17_coe_032_cr.jpg  

    OT:Hunting Ranch Killed Mtn Lions so wouldn't eat their deer...ridiculous!-2009_04_17_coe_033_cr.jpg  

    OT:Hunting Ranch Killed Mtn Lions so wouldn't eat their deer...ridiculous!-2009_04_17_coe_034_cr.jpg  

    OT:Hunting Ranch Killed Mtn Lions so wouldn't eat their deer...ridiculous!-2009_04_17_coe_035_cr.jpg  

    OT:Hunting Ranch Killed Mtn Lions so wouldn't eat their deer...ridiculous!-2009_04_17_coe_036_cr.jpg  


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    Mine were bigger...

    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel~ View Post
    You're just hangin' out in the wrong places.

    Other than mountain lions, these have to be the most elusive and beautiful mammals in the park. They are super skittish, with incredible hearing and an amazing sense of smell. As you mentioned, wind direction is key. Bikes make them harder to spot at Coe, since the stealth factor is reduced, and the elk tend to frequent places where bikes are not allowed.

    -D
    ...I suspect the location of these excellent photos is a secret? Was this from before or after the Lick Fire?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post
    ...I suspect the location of these excellent photos is a secret? Was this from before or after the Lick Fire?
    Comparing size now, are we?

    Photos were taken 04/09, post Lick Fire, in the northwest corner of the park, while on a BP trip with Plymmer. In the last photo, the large pine's trunk is blackened from the fire. Travel in the area was temporarily improved, due to the reduction in brush. It is amazing how quickly it is growing back, though. Bushwhacking through chaparral with a backpack on is not fun; not as bad as with a bike, but close.

    -D

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    Quote Originally Posted by zon View Post
    What Dan Richards did was perfectly legal,, no laws were broken, no rules were violated. He is an avid hunter,, applied for a non-resident tag, and had a successful hunt. Whats the problem??



    .
    I'm sure if Jerry Brown took a picture of himself smiling with a hooker in Vegas it would be no big deal, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Hungus View Post
    I'm sure if Jerry Brown took a picture of himself smiling with a hooker in Vegas it would be no big deal, right?
    Talk about apples an oranges. Isn't hookin' a moral issue?

    Regardless,, if Jerry was photo'd hookin he would be re-elected in a landslide in this state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Hungus View Post
    I'm sure if Jerry Brown took a picture of himself smiling with a hooker in Vegas it would be no big deal, right?
    This made me lol!


    I think what he did was fine. The biggest complaint being discussed is that he's mocking or disrespecting California's law regarding hunting lions. But the same people who are criticizing him for hunting lions are the same people who ignorantly believe that they are a threatened population. The fact that the lion population is healthy and growing in western states does not seem to be popular news among environmental groups like the Humane Society.

    The irony is that hunters, hunting advocacy groups, and people like Dan Richards do more work to help animals and the environment than most people complaining about hunting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jtmartino View Post
    This made me lol!


    I think what he did was fine. The biggest complaint being discussed is that he's mocking or disrespecting California's law regarding hunting lions. But the same people who are criticizing him for hunting lions are the same people who ignorantly believe that they are a threatened population. The fact that the lion population is healthy and growing in western states does not seem to be popular news among environmental groups like the Humane Society.

    The irony is that hunters, hunting advocacy groups, and people like Dan Richards do more work to help animals and the environment than most people complaining about hunting.
    Nicely said!! The fees from hunting licenses, ammo sales, guns sales fund more conservation and game managment than anything the tree huggers have ever done.

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    Moral issue???

    Quote Originally Posted by zon View Post
    Talk about apples an oranges. Isn't hookin' a moral issue?

    Regardless,, if Jerry was photo'd hookin he would be re-elected in a landslide in this state.

    .
    And hunting is not a moral issue?

    I've enjoyed a hunt now and then; I disdain the entire "trophy" aspect of the sport. A beautiful wild animal is killed to stroke an ego; how it's done is most distressing of all. Here's the Mountain Lion Hunting promotional text from the Flying B Ranch where this "hunt" took place:

    "The sound a hound dog makes when running on the scent of a Lion is an experience that cannot be put into words. For those who desire a unique and fun-filled hunting experience, we offer fully-guided (2 guides per hunter) Mountain Lion hunts out of our luxurious 14,000 sq ft lodge during the months of December through March.

    Nothing in the outdoors compares to the superior disdain in the eyes of a Mountain Lion as his gaze catches yours. Every discerning outdoorsman should meet that look, and we are the best in the business at providing you with that opportunity. Using hound dogs, snowmobiles and snowshoes, we guide you into elk and deer wintering grounds in search of a fresh kill or lion track. From here is when the chase begins and we all hope it ends at the tree!

    We are able to offer our Mountain Lion hunts in conjunction with bobcat, steelhead fishing, and wingshooting at your option. Snow conditions can play a major part in the difficulty of the hunt, so to better accommodate our guests, we also offer "on call" hunts during the months of December and March."


    And from the blog that outed the story:

    "NEW COMMISSION PRESIDENT CELEBRATES A SUCCESSFUL HUNT – California Fish and Game commissioner Dan W. Richards travelled deep into the wicked terrain of Idaho’s Flying B Ranch to fulfill a long-held goal. “It was the most physically exhausting hunt of my lifetime. Eight hours of cold weather hiking in very difficult terrain. I told the guides I appreciated the hard work. They were unbelievably professional, first class all the way,” he said. Richards said he took the big cat over iron sights using a Winchester Centennial lever action .45 carbine. Asked about California’s mountain lion moratorium, Richards didn’t hesitate. “I’m glad it’s legal in Idaho.” "

    I wonder if he even carried his firearm? Shooting a cat out of a tree; now that's some marksmanship!
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    Quote Originally Posted by zon View Post
    Nicely said!! The fees from hunting licenses, ammo sales, guns sales fund more conservation and game managment than anything the tree huggers have ever done.

    .
    So it's hunters, not "tree huggers" who are largely responsible for all the National, State, Regional, County and City parks?

    I'm aware that groups like Ducks Unlimited and others do some good work in terms of land conservation but I find the idea that they are the reason we have these open space areas hard to believe if not laughable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post
    And hunting is not a moral issue?
    You have valid opinions about hunting, but they are not relevant to this discussion regarding Dan Richards. Everyone knows Dan is a hunter. His group is responsible for regulating hunting, so we would want him to know the sport he is regulating. The issue here is that he was hunting lions, which is illegal in California. As if he was snubbing California voters.

    I won't say you're wrong for judging the morality of trophy hunting, but that's not the issue here as most trophy hunting is legal in California.

    And seriously, most hunters don't need the meat generated by their kill. It's a nice reward. To claim that there's a moral difference between sport hunters in which hunters eat their kills and those that display it as trophies, specifically when the meat is not needed by the hunter, is a bit of a stretch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Hungus View Post
    So it's hunters, not "tree huggers" who are largely responsible for all the National, State, Regional, County and City parks?

    I'm aware that groups like Ducks Unlimited and others do some good work in terms of land conservation but I find the idea that they are the reason we have these open space areas hard to believe if not laughable.
    I think Zon was saying that hunters are more likely to voluntarily donate or participate in animal and habitat conservation efforts than the average person. Hunters want large amounts of healthy wilderness in which to conduct their sport.

    I think the United States does a pretty good job regulating hunting, and ensuring that populations are healthy enough to allow it. The real issue with animal conservation comes down to urban sprawl. Cars on the road kill more animals annually than every other reason combined, including hunting, poaching, predators and disease.

    The California Roadkill Observation system is a really interesting program established to accurately track data on roadkill. Pictures, locations, descriptions etc. are all uploaded to a central database to help the state track roadkill statistics.

    Interesting article here:

    UC Davis: Institute of Transportation Studies: Road Ecology: Measuring the Wildlife Death Toll along California Roads

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    Quote Originally Posted by jtmartino View Post
    I think Zon was saying that hunters are more likely to voluntarily donate or participate in animal and habitat conservation efforts than the average person. Hunters want large amounts of healthy wilderness in which to conduct their sport.

    Also that the fees from licenses, ammo, guns go right back into the management of resources. It is a major part of where the money comes from for habitat and game management.


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    Dan Richards???

    Quote Originally Posted by jtmartino View Post
    You have valid opinions about hunting, but they are not relevant to this discussion regarding Dan Richards. Everyone knows Dan is a hunter. His group is responsible for regulating hunting, so we would want him to know the sport he is regulating. The issue here is that he was hunting lions, which is illegal in California. As if he was snubbing California voters.

    I won't say you're wrong for judging the morality of trophy hunting, but that's not the issue here as most trophy hunting is legal in California.

    And seriously, most hunters don't need the meat generated by their kill. It's a nice reward. To claim that there's a moral difference between sport hunters in which hunters eat their kills and those that display it as trophies, specifically when the meat is not needed by the hunter, is a bit of a stretch.
    Uhhm...actually this thread is about killing mountain lions in California at the Tejon Ranch so the ranch's clients will have more "trophy class" elk and deer to hunt. Mr. Richards most graciously timed the release of news about his hunt in Idaho to give us something to gossip about.

    My earlier comment in this thread; "I had the same feeling; sort of like the head of the DEA getting photographed taking a toke in Amsterdam. I wish. Explains why the DF&G is fast and loose with those Predation Permits. (I remember a cougar being killed near Blossom Hill last year on the premise that it killed a goat and wondering WTF)" pretty much covered it for me.

    I've moved on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zon View Post
    Also that the fees from licenses, ammo, guns go right back into the management of resources. It is a major part of where the money comes from for habitat and game management.
    This is true on the surface, but the word "management" is telling. Unfortunately, what hunting organizations, (some) license fees, etc, do is to support an environment that is conducive to hunting game, but is not necessarily natural or healthy. In effect, they support an environment that is closer to a game park -like Tejon Ranch- by killing predators and other parts of the natural ecosystem, thus altering that ecosystem. One of the most strident voices against mt. lions, wolves and other apex predators (that are an important part of any healthy ecosystem) is that of the hunting community, even though most scientific evidence shows that having these predators is actually better for the game animals and hunting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    , ... One of the most strident voices against mt. lions, wolves and other apex predators (that are an important part of any healthy ecosystem) is that of the hunting community, even though most scientific evidence shows that having these predators is actually better for the game animals and hunting.

    Unless it gets out of control like the wolf populations in Idaho. They have decimated the elk and deer herds.



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    Quote Originally Posted by zon View Post
    Unless it gets out of control like the wolf populations in Idaho. They have decimated the elk and deer herds.



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    And now they're in Eastern Oregon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post
    Uhhm...actually this thread is about killing mountain lions in California at the Tejon Ranch so the ranch's clients will have more "trophy class" elk and deer to hunt. Mr. Richards most graciously timed the release of news about his hunt in Idaho to give us something to gossip about.

    My earlier comment in this thread; "I had the same feeling; sort of like the head of the DEA getting photographed taking a toke in Amsterdam. I wish. Explains why the DF&G is fast and loose with those Predation Permits. (I remember a cougar being killed near Blossom Hill last year on the premise that it killed a goat and wondering WTF)" pretty much covered it for me.

    I've moved on.
    Right. What Tejon Ranch did was illegal, and they should've received a much harsher fine. Except comparing Richards to the head of the DEA is ridiculous.

    Richards is pro-hunting. His organization is pro-hunting. The Game commission is not the DFW (which is also pro-hunting.) I don't see why people are calling for him to step down, when most people have no idea what the status of mountain lions are in Idaho in the first place.

    Lion populations are not declining in states where hunting them is legal. And him hunting a lion legally in another state is of little moral significance when compared to the other problems California has with managing its open spaces and wildlife.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jtmartino View Post
    And now they're in Eastern Oregon.
    Also Modoc county.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zon View Post
    Unless it gets out of control like the wolf populations in Idaho. They have decimated the elk and deer herds.
    Sad to see that the anti-wolf crusaders are getting to you guys. Lots of conjecture and guesses, and outright lies framed as "fact," but here's what the Idaho Department of Fish and Game found about deer and elk mortality:

    Elk mortality factors:
    hunter harvest: 52%
    mountain lion depredation: 30%
    wolf depredation: 7%
    malnutrition: 7%
    unknown depredation: 4%

    Deer mortality factors:
    mountain lion depredation: 32%
    hunter harvest: 18%
    accidents: 14%
    unknown causes: 14%
    wolves: 9%
    roadkill: 9%
    malnutrition: 4%

    Guess we should declare open season on elk hunters as they are responsible for more than 1/2 of all elk kills. Maybe we should make all deer wear helmets to protect from accidents as well since they kill as many deer as wolves do...

    You can really get into the real "facts" (and where the above numbers come from) here: https://research.idfg.idaho.gov/wild...20Reports.aspx if you are so inclined.

    Despite that fact that the hunting lobby is trying to frighten you into believing that the elk and deer populations will disappear where wolves are, it's not true, period. Oh, but wait, they eat all the cows and sheep also, so kill them all before they put all of the hard-working ranchers out of business! Again, another "fact" that's not true. Below is the graph I posted earlier in this thread, along with one for sheep as well (wolves are lumped in with "all other predators").

    As for the wolves in Oregon, I know them and have family that live right in the middle of that country (just outside of Joseph near the lake in fact). I've tracked them -but never caught up to them- and they are responsible for MAYBE 1/5 (probably far less) of the "kills" of livestock that they have been blamed for. I know the ranchers up there too, and those most vocal about the "menace" of the Imnaha Pack have been dishonest, hypocritical and downright immoral and/or mean (physical threats being a favored tactic) in some of the methods, stories and actions that they have taken against wolves and those that support them.

    Don't believe the hype!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails OT:Hunting Ranch Killed Mtn Lions so wouldn't eat their deer...ridiculous!-wolf_cattle_loss_2005.gif  

    OT:Hunting Ranch Killed Mtn Lions so wouldn't eat their deer...ridiculous!-wolf_sheep_loss_2005.gif  


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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    Sad to see that the anti-wolf crusaders are getting to you guys. Lots of conjecture and guesses, and outright lies framed as "fact," but here's what the Idaho Department of Fish and Game found about deer and elk mortality:

    Elk mortality factors:
    hunter harvest: 52%
    mountain lion depredation: 30%
    wolf depredation: 7%
    malnutrition: 7%
    unknown depredation: 4%

    Deer mortality factors:
    mountain lion depredation: 32%
    hunter harvest: 18%
    accidents: 14%
    unknown causes: 14%
    wolves: 9%
    roadkill: 9%
    malnutrition: 4%

    Guess we should declare open season on elk hunters as they are responsible for more than 1/2 of all elk kills. Maybe we should make all deer wear helmets to protect from accidents as well since they kill as many deer as wolves do...

    You can really get into the real "facts" (and where the above numbers come from) here: https://research.idfg.idaho.gov/wild...20Reports.aspx if you are so inclined.

    Despite that fact that the hunting lobby is trying to frighten you into believing that the elk and deer populations will disappear where wolves are, it's not true, period. Oh, but wait, they eat all the cows and sheep also, so kill them all before they put all of the hard-working ranchers out of business! Again, another "fact" that's not true. Below is the graph I posted earlier in this thread, along with one for sheep as well (wolves are lumped in with "all other predators").

    As for the wolves in Oregon, I know them and have family that live right in the middle of that country (just outside of Joseph near the lake in fact). I've tracked them -but never caught up to them- and they are responsible for MAYBE 1/5 (probably far less) of the "kills" of livestock that they have been blamed for. I know the ranchers up there too, and those most vocal about the "menace" of the Imnaha Pack have been dishonest, hypocritical and downright immoral and/or mean (physical threats being a favored tactic) in some of the methods, stories and actions that they have taken against wolves and those that support them.

    Don't believe the hype!
    I don't dispute the numbers however, they are averaged for the state. I know the area where we hunt, Yellow Pine and Atlanta, we have noticed a dramatic drop in game populations. Maybe just a coincidence but at the same time we see more wolves than ever before, actually a startling increase over 20 years ago when we saw none. It's so bad in parts of Idaho that we have moved our hunt to Colorado where there is not a large wolf population. I know our observations and that of the locals who we talk to are not scientific,, just boots on the ground reporting what we see.


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  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by zon View Post
    I don't dispute the numbers however, they are averaged for the state. I know the area where we hunt, Yellow Pine and Atlanta, we have noticed a dramatic drop in game populations. Maybe just a coincidence but at the same time we see more wolves than ever before, actually a startling increase over 20 years ago when we saw none. It's so bad in parts of Idaho that we have moved our hunt to Colorado where there is not a large wolf population. I know our observations and that of the locals who we talk to are not scientific,, just boots on the ground reporting what we see.
    What biologists have seen is that ungulate populations aren't getting smaller, they are changing their behavior; not gathering in as large of herds, not hanging out in the meadows, along creeks and in riparian habitat, and moving more often. These are all in response to the fact that the wolves found them easier prey when they were doing these things. My understanding is that because the elk and deer are behaving differently, they are harder to find, especially as hunters and hunting guides became used to finding them in certain places and behaving certain ways. More studies have found that overall ecosystem health has been greatly improved by altering ungulate behavior back to the way it was before Europeans (Americans) appeared, which has benefited all sorts of species. I'd grab some more snooze-inducing research to show these things, but I'm on my out the door for a ride in the 70+ degree sun we've got today. You wan't to know more, I'll post them later if anyone requests it.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    Sad to see that the anti-wolf crusaders are getting to you guys.
    You have some great information in your posts. Thanks for taking the time to draw it all out. For the record, I'm not anti-wolf, but I did watch The Grey last night

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