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  1. #1
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    Novato horse riders thrown after run in with mtn bikers.

    This is really bad for our sport, even if it is kids.
    I hope the injured horse and rider recover quickly.

    Zeppegno said the cyclists, who appeared to be 12 to 14 years old, did not stick around.

    Novato horse riders thrown, injured, after run-in with illegal mountain bikers on trail - Marin Independent Journal

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    Agreed. Little punks. Although at 12-14, I probably would've been scared shitless and peaced out as well. Natural reaction at that age. Obviously shouldn't have been blasting blind singletrack illegally, but that goes without saying.

    I also hate reading cycle-horse MarinIJ articles. They bring the crazies out. At least they have FB commenting, so it's not anonymous, but still.

  3. #3
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    I posted this on the MarinIJ page.

    Much like creating skateboard parks to get kids from skateboarding in front of stores, a bike park would give bike riders a challenging area to ride without conflict. The future bike park is near where this incident happened.

    Riding fast on trails near stables is like speeding in school zones.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevXR View Post
    This is really bad for our sport, even if it is kids.
    I hope the injured horse and rider recover quickly.

    Zeppegno said the cyclists, who appeared to be 12 to 14 years old, did not stick around.

    Novato horse riders thrown, injured, after run-in with illegal mountain bikers on trail - Marin Independent Journal
    That is really bad.

    THe kids should have stopped to help.

    The mountain bike community should do everything possible to help find the kids. Possibly even more. We need to show that we're responsible. Organize a medical fund for the lady?
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    Re: Novato horse riders thrown after run in with mtn bikers.

    This is bad. And tragic. Best thing we could do here is someone should start a fund to help pay for their bills and lost work.

    Should be someone connected like Francis or Berkeley Mike who can deliver it in the context of 'we strongly oppose the actions of these riders and are committed to ... ? ... '

    I'd donate.

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  6. #6
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    Only thing that could make this worse is if the mt. bikers were in their 20's-50's. We need to educate and police our own, and I applaud an effort to make up for our bad apples with a fundraising effort. Need to show the haters that we are better than these two kids.

  7. #7
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    And of course all of the normal crazies are showing up in the comments section.


    I wonder if these kids participate in a NorCal HS League team. Probably too young. From what I have seen, the kids on the race teams are taught to be responsible and courteous when riding trails outside of racing. I think there is several posters in this thread can speak about this better than I can.
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    Those comments are hard to read, I cant believe how much they hate bikes. It sucks that those kids took off but that has nothing to do with most riders.
    Why would you ride a horse that gets spooked by bikes anyway.
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    Novato horse riders thrown after run in with mtn bikers.

    This isn't good, but at some point if you are riding a horse that can get easily spooked, you probably shouldn't take it placed where it can get easily spooked, like out in public. If you have your own property you have more control over who and what comes and goes. The horses police use are trained to not get spooked. These people and many others will take skittish animals out, and then expect the public to not upset the animal. If a dog gets spooked, in public, and bites someone the owner is reprimanded or the animal is put down or both.

    Maybe more horse people will start getting mules.

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    If your horse gets spooked, tosses you off, and tramples you to death, it's 100% your own g0ddamn fault. Anything can spook a horse, doesn't have to be a bike. My bike is under my control, their horses are under their horses' control. Simple as that.

    I'd spit on you if I learned you turned these kids in .
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by LightRanger View Post
    Agreed. Little punks. Although at 12-14, I probably would've been scared shitless and peaced out as well. Natural reaction at that age. Obviously shouldn't have been blasting blind singletrack illegally, but that goes without saying.

    I also hate reading cycle-horse MarinIJ articles. They bring the crazies out. At least they have FB commenting, so it's not anonymous, but still.
    Yeah, I really think that the IJ caters to NIMBY Marinites. They love to publish stories like this.

    That said, yeah.... sucks that this happened. It sucks that there are still mountain bikers out there so discourteous that make us all look bad. I wouldn't be surprised if they perps blamed the horse riders.

    I hope everybody recovers okay.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    If your horse gets spooked, tosses you off, and tramples you to death, it's 100% your own g0ddamn fault. Anything can spook a horse, doesn't have to be a bike. My bike is under my control, their horses are under their horses' control. Simple as that.

    I'd spit on you if I learned you turned these kids in .
    I'd rat them out in a New York Second without even having to think about it. That is basically a hit-and-run. Somebody could have died.

    I mean, riding the illegal trail is one thing. You know what you are doing, you get caught, you take your $350 fine like a grown-up and accept responsibility.

    But somebody gets hurt, least you can do is stop and make sure they are okay, call for help, administer first aide, etc.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post

    I'd spit on you if I learned you turned these kids in .
    I'd spit on the kids when I'm turning them in

    Kids are kids; they do dumb stuff. Sometimes they get caught and sometimes they don't.

  14. #14
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    Novato horse riders thrown after run in with mtn bikers.

    Unpredictable untame beasts and no legal public single track in the county....what do you expect horse people. It is unfortunate, but as long as there is not balanced access for the big and growing user group, this type of stuff will continue to happen. The fire road only rule in Marin open space is ridiculous and bullshit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    I'd rat them out in a New York Second without even having to think about it. That is basically a hit-and-run. Somebody could have died.

    I mean, riding the illegal trail is one thing. You know what you are doing, you get caught, you take your $350 fine like a grown-up and accept responsibility.

    But somebody gets hurt, least you can do is stop and make sure they are okay, call for help, administer first aide, etc.
    Yah, poaching trails is one thing - but leaving two injured ladies who are screaming for help on the side of the trail? That's fvucked up.
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  16. #16
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    Novato horse riders thrown after run in with mtn bikers.

    I am sure there is another version of what happened
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    Quote Originally Posted by argibson View Post
    I am sure there is another version of what happened
    id love to hear it. the kids should man up and come forward.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Yah, poaching trails is one thing - but leaving two injured ladies who are screaming for help on the side of the trail? That's fvucked up.
    How were they found again?

    Why am I reminded of that video where the spode chick gets hit, gets up and does the monkey dance, throws her bike at a dude, then goes all crying wounded flower when an audience arrives?

    You seem to know how it went down.
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  19. #19
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    A terrible incident. Hope the injuries are not too severe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brewtality View Post
    I wonder if these kids participate in a NorCal HS League team. Probably too young. From what I have seen, the kids on the race teams are taught to be responsible and courteous when riding trails outside of racing. I think there is several posters in this thread can speak about this better than I can.
    I doubt that these kids were on a NorCal team, even leaving aside that they are probably too young. The NorCal league coaches seriously drum into the kids the ethics of responsible and respectful trail use and sharing. They are taught to stop immediately and dismount when encountering equestrians, wait/walk the bikes until the horses/riders are aware of and comfortable with their presence, and pass only with permission. I have seen many times that they do it automatically.

    The NorCal kids are also taught that they must not ride illegal trails. Not because the trail closures are right or just, but to respect the rules, work within the system to try to change them (as frustrating as that can be in places like Marin or the East Bay) and avoid the kinds of use conflicts like this that can give all mountain bikers a bad name.

    This is not just teaching, it is one of the basic League rules, along with wearing a helmet at all times. NICA Rule 2.4:

    "LEGAL MOUNTAIN BIKING TRAILS ONLY
    As representatives of a NICA league and our sport, NICA student-athletes must ride only on authorized trails. NICA student-athletes found to be riding on illegal trails at ANY time, whether on team rides or on their own, will face consequences. It is the student-athlete’s responsibility to know which trails are legal for bikes. Building unauthorized trails or adding unauthorized features (such as berms or jumps) is also unacceptable and carries the same consequences."

    Violations are a "red level offense" meaning automatic disqualification from the next race for the first offense, season-long disqualification for a second.

    We all know that people are going to ride illegal trails, but this incident shows that even avoiding weekends to try to keep it on the down-low (it apparently occurred on a Thursday afternoon) does not always work. If these youngsters had been in control of their bikes, they should have been able to stop before spooking the horses. And it was unforgivable to split the scene after seeing equestrians down and hurt.

    Comments like those from Mrwhlr above (a complete load of baloney) are as nutty as those of the Marin crazies posting on the IJ site who think all MTB'ers are hooligans and should be banned. What these kids did was a hit-and-run, pure and simple. I am sure it was unintentional, and this type of accident can happen on any trail, legal or otherwise, when a rider lacks sufficient control to avoid endangering others.

    The kids might be caught but given the lawsuit implications they probably won't be outed by their parents. I would hope that if their parents find out that they will be grounded for the summer at minimum.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by argibson View Post
    Unpredictable untame beasts and no legal public single track in the county....what do you expect horse people. It is unfortunate, but as long as there is not balanced access for the big and growing user group, this type of stuff will continue to happen. The fire road only rule in Marin open space is ridiculous and bullshit.
    Well, I expect that riding on a trail open to horses, but closed to bikes aren't expecting an asshat biker flying around the corner at high speed, obviously riding way beyond control of the bike. By the article, there is no reason to think the horse riders did anything wrong, or could have done anything different apart from staying home.

    I mean really, on narrow singletrack around a blind corner, I would expect a horse to freak out and run if some selfish bastard on two wheels was riding beyond his ability to stop at a safe distance. The cyclists (apart from the poaching issue) should expect that there are horses on the trail and ride accordingly. This ain't NorthShore.

    Saying 'what do the expect?' is like arguing that banks should expect to get robbed because they keep so much money there, or a woman should expect to be raped if she has a few drinks and wears a short skirt.
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  21. #21
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    while it is a tragedy that the rider where injured I see this in a different way. While this happened on a no bikes trail these where just kids. Yeah yargle bargle zargle they don't belong there the horses where not under control of their riders. A 12 year old encounters a 1000+lb animal out of control and ran most likely not in fear of punishment but rather in fear of bodily harm. What if one of the horses killed one of the kids? The women sponsor horses at a stable ultimately blame goes to that stable imo for renting out animals that are not trained.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jfloren View Post
    The NorCal kids are also taught that they must not ride illegal trails. Not because the trail closures are right or just, but to respect the rules, work within the system to try to change them (as frustrating as that can be in places like Marin or the East Bay) and avoid the kinds of use conflicts like this that can give all mountain bikers a bad name.

    This is not just teaching, it is one of the basic League rules, along with wearing a helmet at all times. NICA Rule 2.4:

    "LEGAL MOUNTAIN BIKING TRAILS ONLY
    As representatives of a NICA league and our sport, NICA student-athletes must ride only on authorized trails. NICA student-athletes found to be riding on illegal trails at ANY time, whether on team rides or on their own, will face consequences. It is the student-athlete’s responsibility to know which trails are legal for bikes. Building unauthorized trails or adding unauthorized features (such as berms or jumps) is also unacceptable and carries the same consequences."

    Violations are a "red level offense" meaning automatic disqualification from the next race for the first offense, season-long disqualification for a second.
    It's time to interject a dose of reality:

    That rule is very difficult to enforce. Many NICA racers ride (and build) illegal trails on their own time during the season.

    All you have to do is listen to some of the conversations amongst the various team members in the pits, while they're hanging out around the start/finish area, while they're at one of the CM stations watching their buddies race, talk to your racer and learn what some of his team mates are up to with shovel stashes, etc.

    Wait, maybe I'm mistaken and those Monterey Bay Composite kids that I heard while course marshalling want to grow up to be mailmen so that's why they were talking about mailboxes. Or maybe they are huge Aladdin fans so that's why they were talking about magic carpets...

    Yeah, that must be it.

  23. #23
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    I think it fair to say that NorCal kids are not saints. I think it also possible that these kids could be NorCal riders, too. No one really knows enough but kids make mistakes.

    But pound for pound, speed, agility, and guts, NorCal kids are probably near the top in quality of trail sharing behaviors. Independent of the rulebook, it is a huge part of being able to continue to do group rides 3-4 times a week on your local neighborhood dirt in a kit that has your name on it. So trail sharing behaviors are a vital part of their training. Otherwise the whole team, or the whole league for that matter, loses access and administrative support from the schools. There is a lot of accountability.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    id love to hear it. the kids should man up and come forward.
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  25. #25
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    Reading Linda Dahl comment, it seems that it only reinforces her feeling that bikes should not be on single track. Marin's bad, Linda's worse, and the hit and run is only to hurt the cause.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    and the hit and run is only to hurt the cause.
    Oh, another one that was there and saw the entire thing!

    Did any of you eyewitnesses consider the possibility one of these female predators that thinks it can safely ride a prey animal tried to, very unsuccessfully, play trail cop with an untrained prey animal?

    Some of you don't even think twice before hitting your knees .
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jfloren View Post
    I doubt that these kids were on a NorCal team, even leaving aside that they are probably too young. The NorCal league coaches seriously drum into the kids the ethics of responsible and respectful trail use and sharing. They are taught to stop immediately and dismount when encountering equestrians, wait/walk the bikes until the horses/riders are aware of and comfortable with their presence, and pass only with permission. I have seen many times that they do it automatically.

    The NorCal kids are also taught that they must not ride illegal trails. Not because the trail closures are right or just, but to respect the rules, work within the system to try to change them (as frustrating as that can be in places like Marin or the East Bay) and avoid the kinds of use conflicts like this that can give all mountain bikers a bad name.
    It's amazing that people actually believe this. There must be some kind of mind-altering drug they pass around when the topic of sports and kids is involved. Kids will be kids and these guys aren't jedi knights. Everyone will slip up and kids will do things that will blow the minds of parents. It's the stuff you don't know that would really surprise you. Keep your eyes closed if you want to keep living in fantasy land.
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  28. #28
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    Novato horse riders thrown after run in with mtn bikers.

    Horrible all around...no doubt.

    But I would really like hear from the kids. Is it possible that they ran to get help and we are only hearing one side?
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  29. #29
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    Old days... Man up. New days... Lawyer up. Even if the parents know they might be contacting a lawyer not the police. Sad state out our society. If my kids were part of an accident, cars or bicycles, I would be scared too.

    Horses are not all alike. Look at dog personalities. Horses are just as varied. Some are mellow, like they were eating the loco weed all day, some are just like a meth addict, skitterish. I've ridden some mellow horses and some mean ones that just want to kick another horse or find a low branch to knock me off.

    This was a "no bikes" trail near a stable. Even if the horse was skitterish, the riders were not expecting to see bike riders.

    I was told by horse riders that the worst thing in the world is to be quiet and suddenly appear to horses. Being a bit noisy is better than being silent. Horses are happier if they hear you coming from a long ways off. I've come in contract with horses several times on shared use trails. I stop and ask what I need to do. The response varies from "Please stay off the to side while I pass." to "Ride by the horses, they need to get use to bikes."

  30. #30
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    The reality is that many NorCal kids simply won't ride illegal trails. Of course kids willl be kids, but those with experience on a NorCal team who do choose to ride illegal trails are far more likely to be riding in control and to act responsibly thanks to the training and experience of constant group rides representing their schools.

    Anyhow, I doubt we will ever know "the other side of the story" because the kids split the scene of the accident. The only way they will get caught is if they tell their friends or parents, or maybe if some eye-in-the-sky/videocam recorded them. If the kids did nothing wrong and left "to get help," then they would have gotten help and the authorities would not be looking for them. Under the circumstances, there is no reason (other than paranoia) to assume that the injured people are not telling it straight.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jfloren View Post
    The reality is
    Both male and female predators have been shown to lie at times, equine prey animals have not.

    Here this female predator lies about being hit by a male predator traveling 100 miles per hour:

    best freakout ever...ever! - YouTube
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jfloren View Post
    Of course kids willl be kids, but those with experience on a NorCal team who do choose to ride illegal trails are far more likely to be riding in control and to act responsibly thanks to the training and experience of constant group rides representing their schools.
    This kind of absolute statement re: "NICA kids" always causes me to pause. I pause since this oft-repeated claim that NICA is responsible for a every rider's understanding of trail etiquette, a rider's experience, fondness for riding, etc. is simply derived from participating in NICA is misguided. Even better is the "created a mountain biker" for life absolutism.

    This kind of narrow minded view fails to see that many "NICA kids" were stoked on riding long before they heard of NICA and ignores the fact that there are many kids that join NICA fully equipped with trail sharing skills, the ability to ride in control in a group over varied terrain (and pass safely) and as much skill/experience as many other trail riders.

    I doubt that the cretins involved in the incident in Marin are involved in NICA due to their age.

  33. #33
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    I hope the equestrians heal up fast.

    If this really happened like the equestrians say it did and kids on bikes were involved, I hope they come forward.

  34. #34
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    On face value, it is a terrible thing. But Mrwhlr, Tyrone and argibson do bring up a very important point... we've only heard one side of the story.

    I'm reminded of the accident during last year's Tahoe-Sierra 100 race, where equestrians ignored warnings about the race, were just about to enter a section of the course, came across a racer (who stopped), discussed who should go first, racer did...then horse went batshit crazy and threw the rider, paralyzing her from the waist down. Racer stopped racing and stayed with the injured woman for hours until help arrived.

    Equestrian community version: An out of control, speeding mt. biker crashed and spooked the horse, throwing the victim to the ground... how many more times does this have to happen? Ban bikes from the Western States Trail!" ...and they still have been using this false story to boot us off the Western States Trail (where the accident didn't even happen).

    I doubt the alleged kids involved will tell their parents, so chances of ever knowing their side are slim to none. All I know is if the equestrians yell too loud about safety, they themselves ain't gonna be riding on trails someday.

  35. #35
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    My experience with training NorCal kids is that the minority of them are equipped with trail sharing skills, let alone well formed trail sharing skills, or mtb skills at all. Not all NorCal teams draw from the same kinds of communities.

    That said, my experience is with East Bay High Schools (Albany, El Cerrito) which draw from a much smaller and less well developed community of mountain bikers than say, Marin, or Monterey with their several race courses or SC with a really vibrant mtb community.

    It is very rare to have a kid like my son show up as a freshman in full kit, fully dialed bike, complete camelback, with a food under his belt, and 10 years of riding experience on shared trails with guidance in the East Bay. EC for example, starts a very large number of riders with no experience at all and no bikes. The Albany team is similar but, while they start better equipped, they are of a more mild cut than the boisterous EC boys. In any case it gives us an advantage because we can build from the ground up.

    So some of the NorCal contributors speak from their particular experience with their communities. Yet there is a peculiar MO; the longer the riders ride for the team the less likely they will ride unauthorized trails; the value system and the costs do start to take hold. It takes a a while for the sense of responsibility and leadership to take hold and I know that the boys can "wander". This is all in parallel with brain development. Yet, in the end, I have a lot of faith in the result.

    The photos chronicle a freshman,with a champion as a pre-team, and later as a Jr. with a a collegiate champion, as a top varsity racer, and giving back with a teammate to a local advocacy group while back from college, and a kid from age 7.

    This is not unique and is very common in NorCal but the point is training and instilling an ethos, an opportunity which did not exist when our current adult riders were learning their mtb values and something most pre-teens have yet to experience.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Novato horse riders thrown after run in with mtn bikers.-migtrack.jpg  

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  36. #36
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    The only solution is to organize, become the dominant, powerful user group, and relegate equestrians to being 'just another user group' .
    Get organized.
    Run for Mayor, etc.
    be the change...until then, for fVckssake, night ride!
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by paradigm shifter View Post
    This kind of absolute statement re: "NICA kids" always causes me to pause. I pause since this oft-repeated claim that NICA is responsible for a every rider's understanding of trail etiquette, a rider's experience, fondness for riding, etc. is simply derived from participating in NICA is misguided. Even better is the "created a mountain biker" for life absolutism.

    This kind of narrow minded view fails to see that many "NICA kids" were stoked on riding long before they heard of NICA and ignores the fact that there are many kids that join NICA fully equipped with trail sharing skills, the ability to ride in control in a group over varied terrain (and pass safely) and as much skill/experience as many other trail riders.

    I doubt that the cretins involved in the incident in Marin are involved in NICA due to their age.
    It is odd that you are terming relative statements "absolutism" and criticizing as "narrow minded" those of us who praise the NICA training program (in response to another poster's out-of-the-blue speculation above whether the two miscreants here might have been on a NorCal team) just because some kids learn their skills and good behavior eslewhere and at best have them reinforced by a NorCal team.

    Please remove that misdirected chip from your shoulder and get this: those of us saying NICA training is great are not claiming it is the best or only way for kids to learn proper riding skills and behavior. It may be the best way for many kids -- who have been introduced to riding this way and otherwise would spend afternoons eating donuts and playing video games -- but everyone's experience is different.

    Those kids who are introduced to MTB riding before high school by parents, friends, or others are fortunate and one hopes that they have good role models to teach them basic principles about riding in control, respecting others and yielding trail, and that they must never leave the scene of an accident -- especially one that they might have caused, when people are down and hurt, without checking whether help is needed. (Obviously, this could have been a much worse incident if the horse riders had no cell phone.)

    It is easy to speculate about this incident but the reality is we have an incomplete, potentially hyperbolic story and can do nothing but guess as to whether these kids have good teaching/role models or not. Youngsters, even with the best teaching and parenting, sometimes do terribly stupid and wrong things. I don't know what more we can do than try to teach them good behavior and counsel/punish their transgressions. Particularly here, when their misbehavior creates fodder for those who would like to keep all of us MTB'ers off the trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jfloren View Post
    Please remove that misdirected chip from your shoulder and get this: those of us saying NICA training is great are not claiming it is the best or only way for kids to learn proper riding skills and behavior. It may be the best way for many kids -- who have been introduced to riding this way and otherwise would spend afternoons eating donuts and playing video games -- but everyone's experience is different.
    No chip on my shoulder jfloren and I definitely get it. Here's where we have a different take on things:

    "those with experience on a NorCal team who do choose to ride illegal trails are far more likely to be riding in control and to act responsibly thanks to the training and experience of constant group rides representing their schools."

    Apparently you are not familiar with the large number of skilled bike handlers that are out there that are not "NICA kids." That's the only explanation for thinking that those are more likely to be riding in control. I think if you were exposed to more young rippers (hang out at some DJs, ride some off the radar flowy, burmy, jumpy trails, etc.) you would realize that your opinion is based upon a limited amount of experience.

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    I'm inclined to believe that NorCal kids outnumber rippers in our area of the East Bay. That includes the BMX kids, the kids who manufacture seasonal parks that get bulldozed every year, and the like in Pinole, Richmond, San Pablo, Kensington, Albany, and Berkeley. No question. A portion of our founding base came from that and we know those kids.

    We also know the kids who ride Side-O, parts of JMP, and have had contact with those who use Leona as a destination. Great bunch looking for fun, just not XC types and nowhere near NorCal numbers or anything close to the mileage/frequency of use.

    The locals are just that.
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    Horses are dangerous and unpredictable.

    An acquaintance and an A+++ endurance rider was walking her horse on the end of the WS100 trail a few weeks ago and her horse likely spooked and slammed her face and sternum against a rock. I believe she was knocked unconscious, loss a few teeth and likely broke ribs. I don't think she'll ever know what happened since her ride partner was ahead and no one else around. She's a world class rider and hard as nails, but horses are just wacked and can do whatever, whenever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rensho View Post
    Horses are dangerous and unpredictable.

    An acquaintance and an A+++ endurance rider was walking her horse on the end of the WS100 trail a few weeks ago and her horse likely spooked and slammed her face and sternum against a rock. I believe she was knocked unconscious, loss a few teeth and likely broke ribs. I don't think she'll ever know what happened since her ride partner was ahead and no one else around. She's a world class rider and hard as nails, but horses are just wacked and can do whatever, whenever.
    That’s pretty much what Scott The Endurance Horse Trainer Dude™ told me about a year and a half ago. Our paths had crossed a handful of times on my rides since 2011 (Sierra Azul, STCP, etc.), and one day I decided to shoot the breeze with him. We talked for about 20 minutes about horses and sharing the trails, etc. He mentioned he knew of plenty of people with “green” horses who really oughtn’t be riding their horses on mixed-use trails who’ve had issues with them acting unpredictably and erratically around bikers and hikers. His analogy in regard to bikes versus horses: on a bike you know what to expect since it cannot think, whereas on a horse you have to expect it to think on it’s own.

    BTW, horses generally react adversely to the sound of noisy rear hubs (such as Chris King, Hope, etc.) and bike bells spook the crap out of them.
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    Who knows what really happened, but damnit if those kids aren't focking idiots for riding that trail at 4pm in the afternoon. There is a stables right at the bottom of the trail, and it is well known as a trail used a lot by equestrians. We take risks every time we get on the bike, be it the risk of injuring ourselves, or the risk of getting a ticket, or whatever. Riding this trail at a "peak time" is just so focking dumb and risky that I don't really give a sh!t if they were going 3mph or even stopped to let the horses go by. They took on that risk, and they focking own the consequences. And yeah, they have focked things right up for the MTB community, no matter what.

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    I think all the riders posting on this forum can agree that we have all been 12-14 years old, even though it has been longer for some than others. If you can remember that far, which I can, I can honestly say that if I caused an accident such as this, the first thing instinctively I would do is BREAk! Let me makes this clear, Break like leave, not Brake like stop! This doesn't mean that I would leave to avoid any circumstance, but at 12 and encountering an accident with an adult and a horse mind you, what am I going to do? CPR? Probably not. Carry the injured person? No. The best thing to do is leave and go get help. I am at odds to read that everyone is quick to assume that they didn't. The picture that is painted is that these riders are hoodlums wreaking havoc among the equestrians. Come on! I highly doubt that these pre-teen and barely teenage riders purposely had these post motives in regard to the injured horse lover.

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    Quote Originally Posted by expatrider View Post
    Who knows what really happened, but damnit if those kids aren't focking idiots for riding that trail at 4pm in the afternoon. There is a stables right at the bottom of the trail, and it is well known as a trail used a lot by equestrians.... Riding this trail at a "peak time" is just so focking dumb and risky that I don't really give a sh!t if they were going 3mph or even stopped to let the horses go by. They took on that risk, and they focking own the consequences. And yeah, they have focked things right up for the MTB community, no matter what.
    So a couple 12 year olds, who are out of school for the summer, went for a bike ride in the afternoon...and they are focking idiots? They weren't sitting on their a$$ playing video games, doing dope, drinking 82oz big gulp sodas full of sugar, they were riding their bikes.

    12 year olds do stuff all the time that would be idiotic for an adult to do. That's kind of why adults are supposed to watch out for children.

    And then we have some grown adults on some 1,000 lb animals that are trouncing on public property, some out of control 1,000lb animals on public property, and then the animals don't behave, and some kids get blamed.

    How many jurisdiction go around trying to ban pit bulls, or rottweillers, or don't want people keeping wild animals, like Chimps or lions or wolves as pets...because those animals are unpredictable and dangerous.

    A lot of these trails which it is ok to ride horses on, it isn't even ok to bring a dog, because the dog might spook the horse. So these horse people get access to public land subsidized by everyone else, get to have dangerous animals which are easily spooked, so they need to have their own public land. In getting their own land, they don't get a tiny plot like a dog park, to keep other users safer, they get huge chunks of land exclusive to themselves, so they don't have to worry about training their horses.

    I said earlier this isn't a good thing to have happen, but basically these equestrian groups are afforded preferential treatment, on public property, funded with public tax dollars, that other groups are not offered. These equestrian groups have been successful politically and have been able to create this situation for themselves in and Marin County especially. They have been successful at this for so long they aren't even realizing the double standard or to some degree hypocrisy that exists in some of their positions....which happens everywhere, power corrupts.

    Ranchers in this state, if there is someone else's dog or cat or pretty much anything besides a person, bothering their cattle, they have right to shoot that animal. If they are taking their cow for a walk down main street they can't go shooting stuff. This happened on public property, the adults should really be the responsible citizens. The adults bringing a known dangerous and unpredictable animal should really have the highest degree of responsibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the.vault View Post
    So a couple 12 year olds, who are out of school for the summer, went for a bike ride in the afternoon...and they are focking idiots? They weren't sitting on their a$$ playing video games, doing dope, drinking 82oz big gulp sodas full of sugar, they were riding their bikes.

    12 year olds do stuff all the time that would be idiotic for an adult to do. That's kind of why adults are supposed to watch out for children.

    And then we have some grown adults on some 1,000 lb animals that are trouncing on public property, some out of control 1,000lb animals on public property, and then the animals don't behave, and some kids get blamed.

    How many jurisdiction go around trying to ban pit bulls, or rottweillers, or don't want people keeping wild animals, like Chimps or lions or wolves as pets...because those animals are unpredictable and dangerous.

    A lot of these trails which it is ok to ride horses on, it isn't even ok to bring a dog, because the dog might spook the horse. So these horse people get access to public land subsidized by everyone else, get to have dangerous animals which are easily spooked, so they need to have their own public land. In getting their own land, they don't get a tiny plot like a dog park, to keep other users safer, they get huge chunks of land exclusive to themselves, so they don't have to worry about training their horses.

    I said earlier this isn't a good thing to have happen, but basically these equestrian groups are afforded preferential treatment, on public property, funded with public tax dollars, that other groups are not offered. These equestrian groups have been successful politically and have been able to create this situation for themselves in and Marin County especially. They have been successful at this for so long they aren't even realizing the double standard or to some degree hypocrisy that exists in some of their positions....which happens everywhere, power corrupts.

    Ranchers in this state, if there is someone else's dog or cat or pretty much anything besides a person, bothering their cattle, they have right to shoot that animal. If they are taking their cow for a walk down main street they can't go shooting stuff. This happened on public property, the adults should really be the responsible citizens. The adults bringing a known dangerous and unpredictable animal should really have the highest degree of responsibility.
    Geezus that's some twisted logic. So because they were out riding bikes on a horse trail at 4pm, and not at home playing video games, it's OK? Actually, not only is it OK in your book, but the horse riders are to blame! Focking `ell. How dare they bring their horses on a horse trail where bikes are banned and then complain about getting injured after an encounter with some bikes. No, the kids didn't just go out for a nice quiet "afternoon ride", they were riding down a focking horse trail at 4 o'focking clock in the afternoon. Yes, absolutely they are focking idiots.

    I totally agree that the fact this and many trails in Marin are open to a minority (horse riders) and not a much larger user group (bikers) is BS, it's unfair, if not politically corrupt. But that cannot be used to defend the conduct of these idiots, and worse to try and blame the horse riders for what happened. Yes, if you ride your bike down this trail at 4pm then you are a focking idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by expatrider View Post
    ...it's unfair, if not politically corrupt. But that cannot be used to defend the conduct of these idiots, and worse to try and blame the horse riders for what happened....
    No that was pretty much point I am making. The equestrian group has created a perception where they are not legally or morally responsible for the actions of their animals which they take out in public. Instead every other user group, and user, and wild animal, which might be encountered is required to conduct themselves in a way that this user group does not find disagreeable.

    They are about the only user group I know of who afforded that privilege, well that's not entirely true. Many dictators and autocratic rulers seem to afford themselves similar privileges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the.vault View Post
    No that was pretty much point I am making. The equestrian group has created a perception where they are not legally or morally responsible for the actions of their animals which they take out in public. Instead every other user group, and user, and wild animal, which might be encountered is required to conduct themselves in a way that this user group does not find disagreeable.

    They are about the only user group I know of who afforded that privilege, well that's not entirely true. Many dictators and autocratic rulers seem to afford themselves similar privileges.
    I sort of agree with you that horse back riders (as well as other user groups - like dog walkers) often bring animals into our parks that shouldn't be there. I don't know how many times I've been chased by out of controls dogs.

    Too many times horses and their riders are overly nervous - and therefore dangerous to themselves and others.

    But this is sort of a different issue. These kids could have really fixed the problem by stopping and helping. Instead they bailed. That right there makes the biggest difference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by expatrider View Post
    Geezus that's some twisted logic. So because they were out riding bikes on a horse trail at 4pm, and not at home playing video games, it's OK? Actually, not only is it OK in your book, but the horse riders are to blame! Focking `ell. How dare they bring their horses on a horse trail where bikes are banned and then complain about getting injured after an encounter with some bikes. No, the kids didn't just go out for a nice quiet "afternoon ride", they were riding down a focking horse trail at 4 o'focking clock in the afternoon. Yes, absolutely they are focking idiots.

    I totally agree that the fact this and many trails in Marin are open to a minority (horse riders) and not a much larger user group (bikers) is BS, it's unfair, if not politically corrupt. But that cannot be used to defend the conduct of these idiots, and worse to try and blame the horse riders for what happened. Yes, if you ride your bike down this trail at 4pm then you are a focking idiot.
    Yeah, whatever. F@ck horses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    I sort of agree with you that horse back riders (as well as other user groups - like dog walkers) often bring animals into our parks that shouldn't be there. I don't know how many times I've been chased by out of controls dogs.

    Too many times horses and their riders are overly nervous - and therefore dangerous to themselves and others.

    But this is sort of a different issue. These kids could have really fixed the problem by stopping and helping. Instead they bailed. That right there makes the biggest difference.
    Now this one has to be a joke. Well done sir!
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    I sort of agree with you that horse back riders (as well as other user groups - like dog walkers) often bring animals into our parks that shouldn't be there. I don't know how many times I've been chased by out of controls dogs.

    Too many times horses and their riders are overly nervous - and therefore dangerous to themselves and others.

    But this is sort of a different issue. These kids could have really fixed the problem by stopping and helping. Instead they bailed. That right there makes the biggest difference.
    when you are right your are right...

    Also, scared 12 year old children will act like scared 12 year old children....and most likely bail, keep it secret, and never ride their bikes there again.

    to add - There's a real chance the parents don't know...don't follow the IJ, and have no real expectation of being notified by anyone about this.


    Healing vibes to the injured riders and hopes for a quick and uneventful recovery - not their fault a couple children were out acting their age and being rambunctious. In a perfect world they would have stopped - but we don't live in a perfect world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by beaverbiker View Post
    So these kids flew around a corner and hit the horses? They actually collided with the horses and caused the ladies to get hit the ground? To me it sounds just as plausible that the kids were just riding by pretty fast instead of stopping and bowing to the ground that equestrians walk on, the horses got spooked and tossed the riders because they are big skittish animals, and now these ladies are trying to blame the kids. Who do you blame when a mountain lion spooks your horse? Maybe the riders got bucked and tossed after the kids went by so they had no idea that the horses freaked out.

    Anyone who takes the word of an equestrian from Marin at face value needs to do some deep thinking.
    I wonder if they made contact with the horses at all...

    So, if I jay walk on the fwy, and I spook a driver and he/she crashes into another car or rams into the barrier, who's fault is it? Is the insurance company going to go after me? I highly doubt that. They are going to fault the driver for not being in control of the vehicle. The other driver is going to likely sue the first driver...

    Hear that kids, just stay on the couch and start doing some meth. Stay off my horse trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by expatrider View Post
    Geezus that's some twisted logic. So because they were out riding bikes on a horse trail at 4pm, and not at home playing video games, it's OK? Actually, not only is it OK in your book, but the horse riders are to blame! Focking `ell. How dare they bring their horses on a horse trail where bikes are banned and then complain about getting injured after an encounter with some bikes. No, the kids didn't just go out for a nice quiet "afternoon ride", they were riding down a focking horse trail at 4 o'focking clock in the afternoon. Yes, absolutely they are focking idiots.

    I totally agree that the fact this and many trails in Marin are open to a minority (horse riders) and not a much larger user group (bikers) is BS, it's unfair, if not politically corrupt. But that cannot be used to defend the conduct of these idiots, and worse to try and blame the horse riders for what happened. Yes, if you ride your bike down this trail at 4pm then you are a focking idiot.
    I don't think anyone is blaming the horse riders, they're just saying hey don't vilify the kids. Yeah, they ran, and that's not cool, but the horse riders need to take responsibility too.

    If I ride some triple decker 12ft high welded together POS bike on the road and someone opens their car door and I freak out and fall from 12ft, slam my head on the ground and it gets run over by the cement truck in the other lane, I can't just 100% blame the person opening their car door can I? Don't I have a responsibility for riding something that would almost instantly hurt me should something unexpected happen in front or around me?
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    Quote Originally Posted by rensho View Post
    I don't think anyone is blaming the horse riders....
    Actually I was saying the horse riders should have a high degree responsibility for their own and the saftey of others, which is pretty much blaming them for having crazy animals, and not being good enough to stay on the horses. I bet a rodeo cowboy woudn't have gotten bucked off of 'Coco'

    I just read the article again, and looked up Willowside Stables. These ladies don't actually own the horses they just rent the horses, only it's called sponsoring.... So the stables rented out a horse to a part time rider. The horse gets scared by a kid, and bucks the rider, breaking the riders back.

    So you have for profit business which rents out equipment and is basically using public property to supplement and add value to its enterprise. Here is a quote from their web page.
    "Our horses are safe and fun to ride. They are familiar with the trails and easy to handle on the ground. In conjunction with lessons it's a great way to get started riding."
    They might not even have a permit for doing this.

    Yeah..those stables are the ones who are going to have their a$$ in a sling.

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    IF these kids were going to go get help, wouldn't you think that they would say something like, I'M GOING TO GO GET HELP! DON'T MOVE. I'M SORRY! If they addressed the situation and went to get help, that's one thing. That said, I don't think that was the case here.

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    I just read through this whole thread. Some of the comments have me floored.

    I love how lots of people feel a 12 or 14 year old should have "manned up". Or that they should have known better. These kids have been alive for less time than many of us have been riding for. Even if they had parents in the know who were mountain bikers, they were still in a pretty scary situation and reacted like scared kids. That's normal. Maybe the whole situation makes mountain biking look bad, but instead of blaming scared kids for not having a clear head or enough knowledge in a panic, we should probably look at what the root cause of this situation was: not enough access for all user groups. This incident was a symptom, not the problem.

    Also for the dude that called out some high school racers by team name and then named the illegal trails he may or may not have overheard them talking about on a public forum- bad form dude. No need to drag a high school team name through the mud and then parade around certain trail names just so you can win an internet argument. I can't tell which you hate more, kids or fun?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    I just read through this whole thread. Some of the comments have me floored.

    I love how lots of people feel a 12 or 14 year old should have "manned up". Or that they should have known better. These kids have been alive for less time than many of us have been riding for. Even if they had parents in the know who were mountain bikers, they were still in a pretty scary situation and reacted like scared kids. That's normal. Maybe the whole situation makes mountain biking look bad, but instead of blaming scared kids for not having a clear head or enough knowledge in a panic, we should probably look at what the root cause of this situation was: not enough access for all user groups. This incident was a symptom, not the problem.

    Also for the dude that called out some high school racers by team name and then named the illegal trails he may or may not have overheard them talking about on a public forum- bad form dude. No need to drag a high school team name through the mud and then parade around certain trail names just so you can win an internet argument. I can't tell which you hate more, kids or fun?
    I'm going to man up and admit my the manning up comment was made before someone else reminded me that these were youngsters and not men. And that definitely effects things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    I can't tell which you hate more, kids or fun?
    Neither, but you should already know that. Or maybe not, as that is an absolutely stupid question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post

    Also for the dude that called out some high school racers by team name and then named the illegal trails he may or may not have overheard them talking about on a public forum- bad form dude. No need to drag a high school team name through the mud and then parade around certain trail names just so you can win an internet argument. I can't tell which you hate more, kids or fun?
    ....and this is why the MTB teams I help with lower their voices about the quasi-legal places they ride when "the grown-ups" are around. As cool as we think we are, we are still "Authority", and that can take the fun out of anything.

    This is reminder that we are talking about TEENAGERS, and thank God we aren't talking about the poor choices an adult could make........
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    Quote Originally Posted by paradigm shifter View Post
    Neither, but you should already know that. Or maybe not, as that is an absolutely stupid question.
    I'm sure the correct answer is neither as that was a little bit of hyperbole there, but still dude- no reason to name names.

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    Anybody notice that the ages of the kids changed from 12-14 a few days ago to 10-12 now? That's a significant age difference. It also serves as a reminder that all the arguing in this thread is based on facts about an incident that likely unfolded from start to finish in <30 seconds, recounted by two witnesses who were shocked, injured, and potentially biased against cyclists.

    Again, doesn't excuse the behavior, but at this point it's alleged behavior because we've got jack for corroborating details.

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    Novato horse riders thrown after run in with mtn bikers.

    Quote Originally Posted by rensho View Post
    I don't think anyone is blaming the horse riders, they're just saying hey don't vilify the kids. Yeah, they ran, and that's not cool, but the horse riders need to take responsibility too.

    If I ride some triple decker 12ft high welded together POS bike on the road and someone opens their car door and I freak out and fall from 12ft, slam my head on the ground and it gets run over by the cement truck in the other lane, I can't just 100% blame the person opening their car door can I? Don't I have a responsibility for riding something that would almost instantly hurt me should something unexpected happen in front or around me?
    I like how he / no one is wearing a helmet!!??

    Novato horse riders thrown after run in with mtn bikers.-imageuploadedbytapatalk1372119479.785149.jpg
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    Howabout the video???

    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGordo View Post
    I like how he / no one is wearing a helmet!!??

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Funny; I'm a bit of a tallbike aficionado; ride them and horses also---always thought there were some similarities in the sensation...

    High off the ground and not in complete control...

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    Quote Originally Posted by scaryfast View Post
    IF these kids were going to go get help, wouldn't you think that they would say something like, I'M GOING TO GO GET HELP! DON'T MOVE. I'M SORRY! If they addressed the situation and went to get help, that's one thing. That said, I don't think that was the case here.
    Who is to say that they did or did not say that? The only witnesses are the injured equestrians. Regardless of their intentions, the human mind does a poor job remembering details in a traumatic episode. And there is no doubt they were very pissed off to have bikes poaching their horse only trail. Like it or not, the rules are what they are and the equestrians felt righteous indignation.

    I grew up around horses in the midwest, and believe it or not, it was a major inspiration for me to start riding bikes. If a bicycle doesn't do what you expect it to do, you either made a mistake or the machine is broken. In either case you can address the problem. If a horse does not do what you expect it to do it's just being a horse. The person who compared their personality to dogs had it right - horses are individual animals with personalities and varying degrees of effective training. I can respect folks who enjoy but also understand that they come from a very wealthy and politically powerful social caste which is why they are afforded vast tracts of public land for their hobby. The best thing we can do as a cycling community is put forward the best face we can on multi use trails and try to exercise whatever political power we can to get our own trails so that poaching is less necessary.

  64. #64
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    I wonder if he can do trackstands on that contraption.
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    The comment thread in the IJ is crazytown. From BOTH sides. It feels like the age old battle between the hateful horse ladies and the renegade cyclists is violently barfing on me through my computer screen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottParsley View Post
    The comment thread in the IJ is crazytown. From BOTH sides. It feels like the age old battle between the hateful horse ladies and the renegade cyclists is violently barfing on me through my computer screen.
    The usual crazies (Parulis, psycho Terri) are out in force for sure.

    However, I learned something new by reading the comments:

    "We are privileged with mile after mile of approved mountain bike trails in Marin County"

    I wonder if the NICA PR person is conflating fireroads and trails? If not, I would love to be pointed to this vast network of approved mountain bike trails that I have been missing out on over all of these years.

  67. #67
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    I stopped replying to JP & TS a long time ago. Anything you say to them is just fuel for the fire. There is no reasoning with them. I found it best to just let them come off as crazy all on their own. I believe JP reads this forum and is reading this thread too so I'll leave it at that.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by scaryfast View Post
    IF these kids were going to go get help, wouldn't you think that they would say something like, I'M GOING TO GO GET HELP! DON'T MOVE. I'M SORRY! If they addressed the situation and went to get help, that's one thing. That said, I don't think that was the case here.
    Think about the other possible outcome, their parents get sued, they get thrown in juvy or worse, there's no way they can possibly pay off the medical bills and settlement, and their life is effectively ruined, they turn to selling drugs or stealing or something like that. If I believed there was a real chance for them to work it off, have a fair outcome that allows them to pay some sort of reasonable debt or community service, then sure, what you said makes sense. People want them to "man up", but there are plenty of those that will "throw the book" at anyone who does something like this or makes a mistake. Is our system designed to allow those that want to be better to actually do so? Or will it simply damn them and make it impossible to do so?
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    Basically, kids, parents of kids, friends of kids, don't say a damn word to anyone is the best advice you'll get about incidents like these.

    It's a good thing kids have friends in their own age group to undo some of the stupid that so called 'mentors' try to plant in their heads.
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    Quote Originally Posted by beaverbiker View Post
    So these kids flew around a corner and hit the horses? They actually collided with the horses and caused the ladies to get hit the ground? To me it sounds just as plausible that the kids were just riding by pretty fast instead of stopping and bowing to the ground that equestrians walk on, the horses got spooked and tossed the riders because they are big skittish animals, and now these ladies are trying to blame the kids. Who do you blame when a mountain lion spooks your horse? Maybe the riders got bucked and tossed after the kids went by so they had no idea that the horses freaked out.

    Anyone who takes the word of an equestrian from Marin at face value needs to do some deep thinking.

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  71. #71
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    Novato horse riders thrown after run in with mtn bikers.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottParsley View Post
    I stopped replying to JP & TS a long time ago. Anything you say to them is just fuel for the fire. There is no reasoning with them. I found it best to just let them come off as crazy all on their own. I believe JP reads this forum and is reading this thread too so I'll leave it at that.
    Well if JP is reading this thread, then he can suck my left one!
    And Terry if your reading this, you can suck my right one!
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  72. #72
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    The more I read this thread the more I'm reminded of that scene in the Godfather, remember, the one with the horses head?

    Either way those kids are a reflection of their parents.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottParsley View Post
    I stopped replying to JP & TS a long time ago. Anything you say to them is just fuel for the fire. There is no reasoning with them. I found it best to just let them come off as crazy all on their own. I believe JP reads this forum and is reading this thread too so I'll leave it at that.

    +1. They can't vent if you don't comment. They're trolls.
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  74. #74
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    A Classic!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by the.vault View Post
    Actually I was saying the horse riders should have a high degree responsibility for their own and the saftey of others, which is pretty much blaming them for having crazy animals, and not being good enough to stay on the horses. I bet a rodeo cowboy woudn't have gotten bucked off of 'Coco'

    I just read the article again, and looked up Willowside Stables. These ladies don't actually own the horses they just rent the horses, only it's called sponsoring.... So the stables rented out a horse to a part time rider. The horse gets scared by a kid, and bucks the rider, breaking the riders back.

    So you have for profit business which rents out equipment and is basically using public property to supplement and add value to its enterprise. Here is a quote from their web page.
    "Our horses are safe and fun to ride. They are familiar with the trails and easy to handle on the ground. In conjunction with lessons it's a great way to get started riding."
    They might not even have a permit for doing this.

    Yeah..those stables are the ones who are going to have their a$$ in a sling.
    Being around a bunch of horse people growing up, (my sister was way into horses) I can tell you that this is how most horse folks go it. Owning a horse is crazy expensive, so usually a few people go in on a horse. My sister used to exchange horse stable work for saddle time. I had a roommate who would pay $100 a month and stable work for saddle time. IIRC, she got like two rides a week or something. Both my sister and roomie were really good riders. They probably got as much saddle time than most of my two wheeled brethren on these boards.

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    Besides the two stories from the women, is there any evidence that two cyclists were actually encountered? What if there were no cyclists and it's a ruse to shift blame on an accident?
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    Novato horse riders thrown after run in with mtn bikers.

    Quote Originally Posted by hanskellner View Post
    Besides the two stories from the women, is there any evidence that two cyclists were actually encountered? What if there were no cyclists and it's a ruse to shift blame on an accident?
    Ding ding ding!

    Also -

    Who owns the horse?

    Who pays for the stable fees?

    How did this rider wind up on the horse?

    Did she rent it or sponsor it?

    Did she sign a release of liability?

    Never take a story like this at face value.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mc7donald View Post
    I also hate reading cycle-horse MarinIJ articles
    I think you mean " Illegally whipping mountain bikers - Coco the dehydrated quivering flank Belgian draft horse" articles

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    Novato horse riders thrown after run in with mtn bikers.

    Quote Originally Posted by squareback View Post
    I think you mean " Illegally whipping mountain bikers - Coco the dehydrated quivering flank Belgian draft horse" articles

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanskellner View Post
    Besides the two stories from the women, is there any evidence that two cyclists were actually encountered? What if there were no cyclists and it's a ruse to shift blame on an accident?
    Insurance scam.

    I hear quivering flanks make for better glue.
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    wow lots of complaining about the crazies on Facebook but sounds like a lot of crazies on here... The kids were 12!!!! this is terrible that this lady got hurt but horses are dangerous and in MN they are listed as inherently dangerous meaning the rider assumes all responsibility for their actions. I"m not saying what these kids did was right but to hold them liable at 12 or worse yet their parents because that is how our f'd up legal system works, is absolutely stupid!
    I feel terrible for this lady and her horse and it sucks that this happened and it looks bad because the kids ran but I bet 99% of you would have ran off at 12 and then went and hid someplace too.
    I know it will be taken as a black eye for MTB since it is in CA and for whatever reason the tree huggers hate bikers but lets slow down and not crucify these kids. If I was their parents and was reading all the stuff on Facebook and threads like this I wouldn't even bring my kids forward. It would ruin their lives because of all the over reacting crazies out there... The kids f'd up, it was a mistake. yes they poached trails but it would be no different if you were riding your horse down a dirt road and the kid was on dirt bike o ATV and went flying by. It happens all the time here... accidents happen and that is what it was an accident. They probably didn't even know they were doing something wrong they were 12!!!

    sorry to the lady and her family and horse, best wishes on recover

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by cglasford View Post
    wow lots of complaining about the crazies on Facebook but sounds like a lot of crazies on here...
    Indeed...

    "These kids caused injury and LEFT. Whether you support the illegal poaching of trails or not, they were less than human in leaving the scene of an injury they caused. You're as bad as they are."
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  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    Why would you ride a horse that gets spooked by bikes anyway.
    You mean on a trail that's not open to bikes, where you're not supposed to run into bikes that could spook your horse? Oh, I don't know... maybe because it's better than riding on multi-use trails where the bicycles are supposed to be?? Duh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    If your horse gets spooked, tosses you off, and tramples you to death, it's 100% your own g0ddamn fault. Anything can spook a horse, doesn't have to be a bike. My bike is under my control, their horses are under their horses' control. Simple as that.

    I'd spit on you if I learned you turned these kids in .
    Horses are animals and, as a rider, you do take on the risk of riding them in public places. However, if you're being careful and riding them where bikes aren't supposed to be, then you're mitigating that risk. Ride a bike on the illegal trail and spook horses there? You absolutely share in the responsibility for spooking the horse.

    But the bigger issue is that these kids caused people injuries and then left them there to possibly die. They didn't bother to check and, according to the news article (that you seem not to have read), the injured ladies were pleading for the kids to help, yet they decided to take off. 12? Maybe you don't know better, but by 14, you definitely do. Once these cowards get their licenses, they'll hit someone in a bike in their cars and drive off, leaving an injured cyclist on the side of the road.

    You'd spit on us for turning in cowards like these? You're no better than those two cowards. For whatever it's worth, neg rep for you.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    Indeed...

    "These kids caused injury and LEFT. Whether you support the illegal poaching of trails or not, they were less than human in leaving the scene of an injury they caused. You're as bad as they are."
    I'm not saying they should have left I didn't condone their activities in any way. They might not have even known they caused her injury i don't know what the section of the trail looked like or if the horse freaked out right away or did a little stutter step and got loose and she couldn't control it and fell off a few seconds later or how fast the kids were going? lot of what ifs.... also like some of these other people are saying is there even evidences of riders? I don't know this story has a lot of holes in it....

    again either way I wish this lady the best and gods speed on her recovery...

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiahh View Post
    You mean on a trail that's not open to bikes, where you're not supposed to run into bikes that could spook your horse? Oh, I don't know... maybe because it's better than riding on multi-use trails where the bicycles are supposed to be?? Duh.



    Horses are animals and, as a rider, you do take on the risk of riding them in public places. However, if you're being careful and riding them where bikes aren't supposed to be, then you're mitigating that risk. Ride a bike on the illegal trail and spook horses there? You absolutely share in the responsibility for spooking the horse.

    But the bigger issue is that these kids caused people injuries and then left them there to possibly die. They didn't bother to check and, according to the news article (that you seem not to have read), the injured ladies were pleading for the kids to help, yet they decided to take off. 12? Maybe you don't know better, but by 14, you definitely do. Once these cowards get their licenses, they'll hit someone in a bike in their cars and drive off, leaving an injured cyclist on the side of the road.

    You'd spit on us for turning in cowards like these? You're no better than those two cowards. For whatever it's worth, neg rep for you.
    FYI - the story has changed. Age of the children went from 12-14 to 10-12. HUGE difference if it was 10 year olds IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    If your horse gets spooked, tosses you off, and tramples you to death, it's 100% your own g0ddamn fault. Anything can spook a horse, doesn't have to be a bike. My bike is under my control, their horses are under their horses' control. Simple as that.

    I'd spit on you if I learned you turned these kids in .
    If there was ever a need to reaffirm how clueless you are ... Keep up the good work!

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    Horse and rider have always had the right of way. From the beginning of time! Just as the uphill rider has the right of way. And the hiker has the right of way. But there are a ton of weekend warriors and plain pricks that are oblivious or don't care about right of way or tail etiquette. And then they cry about loosing trail access. Hear is an explanation of trail etiquette fro IMBA. Trail Etiquette and Safety for Equestrians, Hikers and Mountain Bikers | International Mountain Bicycling Association

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    Thank God horse riders never poach trails.

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    amen! and they always come to do trail work too!

    I'm just glad I don't live where we have to share trails with horses!

    it's stupid this would ever effect our trail access or that MTB riders should ever have to beg for trail access and others get it for nothing

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by spearsgary View Post
    Horse and rider have always had the right of way. From the beginning of time! Just as the uphill rider has the right of way. And the hiker has the right of way. But there are a ton of weekend warriors and plain pricks that are oblivious or don't care about right of way or tail etiquette. And then they cry about loosing trail access. Hear is an explanation of trail etiquette fro IMBA. Trail Etiquette and Safety for Equestrians, Hikers and Mountain Bikers | International Mountain Bicycling Association
    Not where I live, thank jesus:

    "In general, bike riders yield to both hikers and horseback riders; hikers yield to horseback riders. However, for all trail users, downhill yields to uphill. Use common sense and courtesy while on the trails."

    Common sense as in leave stupid horses at home.
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  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanskellner View Post
    Besides the two stories from the women, is there any evidence that two cyclists were actually encountered? What if there were no cyclists and it's a ruse to shift blame on an accident?
    I'm with this. There were at least sparse details about the entire incident in the article, except of course - any description of the alleged riders. Wouldn't the news article be a great place to post a description of the alleged riders and a call to action to keep an eye out?

    Also, the language in the article was hardly objective... "Terrifying the horses" is a rather colorful description of the ALLEGED event. "We hope they turn themselves in"... blah blah. This is a deliberate smear against the riding community.

    I think there's more to the story....
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  92. #92
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    I grew up in this neighborhood and it is 100% horse country. Lots of the houses have mini-stables in the back yard. We used to rip around on our BMX bikes and there were usually no issues that I recall. My point is that as bikers we should be cognizant to not push too hard into areas already established for a certain type of recreation. Riding bikes on the trails off Vineyard Rd. is probably just a bad idea. I have a horse dedicated park less than a mile from my home in Washington and I have never dared to pedal through it, would rather advocate trails away from horses.

  93. #93
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    Mr. Whir- Rhetorical question: So why are you posting on here if you don't live here (thank jesus)?! Seems like your "advice" would be better appreciated in your local area... "Ride globally, act locally."

    This thread has flushed out more kooks (and conspiracy theorists) than I've ever encountered riding horses, although I'm no fan of horses on our trails.

    BTW- If my 10-12 year old took off after critically injuring someone with their bike, their bike would be gathering dust for a looong time. I taught 7-8 year olds in the inner city that knew better. Don't make excuses for them (they're smarter than horses).
    Last edited by dirtvert; 06-25-2013 at 06:01 PM.
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  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtvert View Post
    This thread has flushed out more kooks than I've ever encountered riding horses, although I'm no fan of horses on our trails.
    Same reason you're here.....and it helps the site w/ web traffic.
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  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by spearsgary View Post
    Horse and rider have always had the right of way. From the beginning of time! Just as the uphill rider has the right of way. And the hiker has the right of way. But there are a ton of weekend warriors and plain pricks that are oblivious or don't care about right of way or tail etiquette. And then they cry about loosing trail access. Hear is an explanation of trail etiquette fro IMBA. Trail Etiquette and Safety for Equestrians, Hikers and Mountain Bikers | International Mountain Bicycling Association
    Yes, shame on those 10 year old kids for not knowing the required trail etiquette created by an international association and posted in their website which we all know 10 year olds frequent more than youtube or instagram combined.

    Most kids have bikes, but not many have mountain biking parents who are able to educate them at an early age on trail etiquette. There's a good chance these kids were not even mountain bikers, just kids with bikes.

    At 10 years old they're still building 1 foot high dirt or wooden jumps in the vacant lot at the end of the block and using their bikes to go to their friend's house or 7-11 for a slurpee. Chances are they flat-spotted their tires on the way there from skidding so much on the pavement. Most of them have to be reminded to bring their bikes in off the front lawn before the sprinklers come on or someone steals it... so yeah, I'm sure every time they ride those bikes the first thing they're thinking about is the IMBA rules of the trail.

  96. #96
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    It is time.

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    Mr. Whir's post makes perfect sense, and I'm sure sensible people in his community do appreciate it.

    Creating regulations and rules that allow people to bring giant prey animals in to the public space where they are a reliability and danger to everyone, not just the rider.... loads of sense there, yep. Why do I have to be responsible for your (uncontrollable) animals' behavior?

    If mountain bikes are going to be restricted from certain areas, then its only fair (and safer) to restrict horses and their riders from certain areas too.
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  98. #98
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    I was a horse rider long before I started mountainbiking. Funny thing is, whenever my horse spooked at a MTB, I always assumed it my fault for not training my horse properly. I finally had to borrow a friend bike, hobble and tie my horse to a tree and ride circles around him, yelling, kicking , throwing pebbles. Problem solved. I love horses. But they are stupid. Too many people train their horses like they are rational creatures. (Side note, never could get him not to spook at yellow road signs)

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    Iv'e seen horses spook and rear-up from encountering hikers. They (horses) just don't mix well in urban parks

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    Quote Originally Posted by beaverbiker View Post
    Yea, especially with Yuppies that only ride them twice a month when their porsche is in the shop.
    Young Urban Professionals?

    I don't think so based upon the equestrians that I encounter in the Bay Area. They are for the most part chunky older women.

    Some data:

    The following represents horse sport enthusiasts as reported by USA Equestrian (formerly American Horse Shows Association) in 2008:

    • 27,000,000 people over the age of 12 ride a horse at least once a year
    • 14,580,000 people over the age of 12 ride a horse on a regular basis
    • 2,200,000 people own horses in the United States
    • 88,000,000 people attend horse-related events
    • The average annual income of an individual who subscribes to an English style equestrian magazine is $105,000
    • The average home value is $594,000
    • 22% own a second home
    • 43% travel on an airplane more than 16 times a year
    • 78% are members of a frequent flyer program
    • 97% own one or more credit cards
    • 55% of their automobiles were purchased last year
    • They own three vehicles; 53% own a pick-up truck
    • 94% own a pet besides a horse or pony
    • The average age is 39
    • 85% are women
    • 63% are married
    • 80% of equestrians have a minimum of a four-year college degree


    Equestrian Demographic Data

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