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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCWages View Post
    I assumed it was a new sign since Amy practically lives on those trails. But please keep up the banter. I need sox!
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trespinero View Post
    I hate the accessibility argument because I am handi-capable to ride my moped any where you can ride your bike? That seems like a paved slope opposed to a slippery slope to sanitizing everything.
    I don't see it that way.

    An ebike does not require sanitizing the trail, it doesn't make materially more noise than an i9 hub, it doesn't create closure rates with other users outside of the existing envelope of a fit pro/expert rider, it doesn't affect the trail bed significantly more than a clyde.

    If you look at the envelope of what we allow to go on on the trails, an ebike is a dream compared to a horse...no poop, no spreading of invasive species, fraction of the weight, lower psi on the trail bed, they don't spook, no unusual control issue, no need to prune back the brush for height and trail width, no need to provide parking for 4 axels to get 2 people on the trail.

    The potential access created by allowing a person with a disability to use an ebike is huge, and all it costs the tax payer is the cost to cut down the signs. I don't see any way ebike bans can withstand an ADA challenge. Its no/low cost and no measurable impact. Its a profoundly "reasonable accommodation" compared to what they've required businesses to do with ramps, doorways, elevators, etc etc.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphic View Post
    I don't see it that way.

    An ebike does not require sanitizing the trail, it doesn't make materially more noise than an i9 hub, it doesn't create closure rates with other users outside of the existing envelope of a fit pro/expert rider, it doesn't affect the trail bed significantly more than a clyde.

    If you look at the envelope of what we allow to go on on the trails, an ebike is a dream compared to a horse...no poop, no spreading of invasive species, fraction of the weight, lower psi on the trail bed, they don't spook, no unusual control issue, no need to prune back the brush for height and trail width, no need to provide parking for 4 axels to get 2 people on the trail.

    The potential access created by allowing a person with a disability to use an ebike is huge, and all it costs the tax payer is the cost to cut down the signs. I don't see any way ebike bans can withstand an ADA challenge. Its no/low cost and no measurable impact. Its a profoundly "reasonable accommodation" compared to what they've required businesses to do with ramps, doorways, elevators, etc etc.
    Guess it depends on the level of the disability, it is a Pandora's box.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphic View Post
    I don't see it that way.

    An ebike does not require sanitizing the trail, it doesn't make materially more noise than an i9 hub, it doesn't create closure rates with other users outside of the existing envelope of a fit pro/expert rider, it doesn't affect the trail bed significantly more than a clyde.

    If you look at the envelope of what we allow to go on on the trails, an ebike is a dream compared to a horse...no poop, no spreading of invasive species, fraction of the weight, lower psi on the trail bed, they don't spook, no unusual control issue, no need to prune back the brush for height and trail width, no need to provide parking for 4 axels to get 2 people on the trail.

    The potential access created by allowing a person with a disability to use an ebike is huge, and all it costs the tax payer is the cost to cut down the signs. I don't see any way ebike bans can withstand an ADA challenge. Its no/low cost and no measurable impact. Its a profoundly "reasonable accommodation" compared to what they've required businesses to do with ramps, doorways, elevators, etc etc.
    Some good points but must disagree on the closure rate issue; at Henry W Coe SP (Specialized's home test track) we're getting a lot of comments about e-bikes startling other users when going uphill. As (you) mentioned they're quiet and can be traveling 2~3 X faster than a real bicycle in the uphill direction. The e-bike users haven't yet developed an etiquette in these situations (nor do they appear to care). And the e-bikes make everybody a "fit pro/expert rider".

    RE "...doesn't affect the trail bed significantly more than a clyde"; how many riders are "clydes" and what about a clyde on an e-bike"? It's probably a fractional number but with more weight and more users e-bikes do affect the the trail bed more than regular MTB'ing. What I've seen at Coe it that the e-bikers seem to have more "skid-kiddies" in their population; again, an etiquette problem.
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCWages View Post
    I assumed it was a new sign since Amy practically lives on those trails. But please keep up the banter. I need sox!
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  6. #56
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    I could walk into the VA on Monday and get the ball rolling on an ADA placard.

    I'd pull my ID out of the same wallet that has my UCI license.

    While I realize I'm a relative rare case, the idea that blanket exemptions should be granted for ADA placard holders is a bit much for me to stomach.

    How do we determine what is or is not a "legitimate" condition? I don't know. But giving me an extra 750w because of a knee injury that only bothers me when I do lunges seems like a bad idea.



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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphic View Post
    I don't see it that way.

    An ebike does not require sanitizing the trail, it doesn't make materially more noise than an i9 hub, it doesn't create closure rates with other users outside of the existing envelope of a fit pro/expert rider, it doesn't affect the trail bed significantly more than a clyde.

    If you look at the envelope of what we allow to go on on the trails, an ebike is a dream compared to a horse...no poop, no spreading of invasive species, fraction of the weight, lower psi on the trail bed, they don't spook, no unusual control issue, no need to prune back the brush for height and trail width, no need to provide parking for 4 axels to get 2 people on the trail.

    The potential access created by allowing a person with a disability to use an ebike is huge, and all it costs the tax payer is the cost to cut down the signs. I don't see any way ebike bans can withstand an ADA challenge. Its no/low cost and no measurable impact. Its a profoundly "reasonable accommodation" compared to what they've required businesses to do with ramps, doorways, elevators, etc etc.

    You non racers who don't ride with a power meter crack me up. Yep, all of us Pro/Cat 1 guys can put out 750 watts. Sorry, very few of you even know what 750 sustained watts remotely looks like. Chris Froome's physiological test data released | Cyclingnews.com

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    Ok, I'm not real up on ADA requirements. But I remember reading somewhere else that anyone could claim they needed accommodations and they must be granted (this wasn't talking about bikes btw), and no one was allowed to request any form of proof that the person had a legitimate disability. Probably due to a prior lawsuit. Is this accurate?

    I would consider access for the disabled and elderly but the fear is, how do you regulate that? If ebike access is granted, I think the vast majority of ebikers would be guys who just don't want to pedal so much. I'm talking in general here, I'm not even in California.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Allan View Post
    You non racers who don't ride with a power meter crack me up. Yep, all of us Pro/Cat 1 guys can put out 750 watts. Sorry, very few of you even know what 750 sustained watts remotely looks like.
    Ha...I use power meters quite bit (on road and MTBs), I race Pro (locally - non-sanctioned) and Cat 1 (sanctioned - nationally) and the longest I have ever "sustained" 750 watts for was a whopping one and a half minutes (I went back and checked my best effort power curve through the years on TrainingPeaks). And it was a total all-in effort where I threw down all I could on a Strava KOM attempt 2 years ago. I remember being light-headed at the top and ready to hurl...I don't even throw down efforts like that in an actual race because they are so unsustainable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    Ha...I use power meters quite bit (on road and MTBs), I race Pro (locally - non-sanctioned) and Cat 1 (sanctioned - nationally) and the longest I have ever "sustained" 750 watts for was a whopping one and a half minutes (I went back and checked my best effort power curve through the years on TrainingPeaks). And it was a total all-in effort where I threw down all I could on a Strava KOM attempt 2 years ago. I remember being light-headed at the top and ready to hurl...I don't even throw down efforts like that in an actual race because they are so unsustainable.
    I remember wanting to puke when Craig, Bull and I raced ebikes at PCRS... just never stopped pedaling for 2 laps. Not easy! The fastest Pro/Experts were faster going up The Wall and the other steep climb. Regular Experts and others were faster on the rolling/pedally descents.

    (As per Strava: https://www.strava.com/activities/308624338/overview.... and Metamorphic's analysis:

    "Strava puts him at 276 watts average for the 2 laps, with a peak of about 1300 watts. So the eBikes max power with a SS'er on it is slightly higher (100 watts) than the Pro/Expert, but the average wattage is actually less....quite a bit (25% or so) less, and that's on a race 2 laps shorter. So theoretically the eBike rider can burn the battery faster, also the rider can add more wattage since they're out there for a shorter time. It wasn't the same course, so you can compare lap times and comparing average speed is iffy. But based on what you can see its pretty clear that the Pro/Expert would beat the eBike with the SS'er on it, and that the longer the course the worse the beating would be.")

    Whatev's...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    I remember wanting to puke when Craig, Bull and I raced ebikes at PCRS... just never stopped pedaling for 2 laps. Not easy! The fastest Pro/Experts were faster going up The Wall and the other steep climb. Regular Experts and others were faster on the rolling/pedally descents.

    (As per Strava: https://www.strava.com/activities/308624338/overview.... and Metamorphic's analysis:

    "Strava puts him at 276 watts average for the 2 laps, with a peak of about 1300 watts. So the eBikes max power with a SS'er on it is slightly higher (100 watts) than the Pro/Expert, but the average wattage is actually less....quite a bit (25% or so) less, and that's on a race 2 laps shorter. So theoretically the eBike rider can burn the battery faster, also the rider can add more wattage since they're out there for a shorter time. It wasn't the same course, so you can compare lap times and comparing average speed is iffy. But based on what you can see its pretty clear that the Pro/Expert would beat the eBike with the SS'er on it, and that the longer the course the worse the beating would be.")

    Whatev's...
    That's completely based on how much you're bike was putting out. I believe the Turbo Levos are nominal 250 watts 520 max currently, in which case a very fast rider would likely beat you on a regular bike. In a couple of years when they are all at the legal limit of 750 watts and battery life will allow that wattage for a significant time, that will no longer be the case. 750 watts will be the sucky bikes in a few years by the way.

    I'm not sure how you can argue this point, are you slower on your Nomad compared to your Bridgestone? I doubt it. Speed creates user confrontations. I should add, I'm not anti E-bike. I'm anti 750+ watt E-bikes.

    Strava estimated power numbers are completely useless by the way.....

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKD View Post
    You need a better lawyer to negotiate your next moderator compensation contract.

    I'll do it for you. For a pair of MTBR socks.
    For real. I need Rick Peck (Tropic Thunder) to negotiate my contract. At least I'd get TiVo. lol

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Ok, I'm not real up on ADA requirements. But I remember reading somewhere else that anyone could claim they needed accommodations and they must be granted (this wasn't talking about bikes btw), and no one was allowed to request any form of proof that the person had a legitimate disability. Probably due to a prior lawsuit. Is this accurate?

    I would consider access for the disabled and elderly but the fear is, how do you regulate that? If ebike access is granted, I think the vast majority of ebikers would be guys who just don't want to pedal so much. I'm talking in general here, I'm not even in California.
    This is what I've read as well. I believe it came up in a recreation meeting with REI too.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Allan View Post
    That's completely based on how much you're bike was putting out. I believe the Turbo Levos are nominal 250 watts 520 max currently, in which case a very fast rider would likely beat you on a regular bike. In a couple of years when they are all at the legal limit of 750 watts and battery life will allow that wattage for a significant time, that will no longer be the case. 750 watts will be the sucky bikes in a few years by the way.

    I'm not sure how you can argue this point, are you slower on your Nomad compared to your Bridgestone? I doubt it. Speed creates user confrontations. I should add, I'm not anti E-bike. I'm anti 750+ watt E-bikes.

    Strava estimated power numbers are completely useless by the way.....
    I tend to be with Sean on the power limit. 750W is 3 times too.much. limit ebikes to 250W and most issues go away.

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    FWIW my understanding is that while a LEO may not ask of the nature of the disability they may ask for "credible assurance" of a mobility disability. (If not obvious) If you don't have a letter from a doctor or a handicap placard you could get a ticket and then explain the situation to a judge.

    Food for thought; is a pregnant lady on an e-bike legit??? (Some gals get placards late term)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    Food for thought; is a pregnant lady on an e-bike legit??? (Some gals get placards late term)
    I did a little research and couldn't find anything in the food forum or the fetish forum. I'd give her a pass!
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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    FWIW my understanding is that while a LEO may not ask of the nature of the disability they may ask for "credible assurance" of a mobility disability. (If not obvious) If you don't have a letter from a doctor or a handicap placard you could get a ticket and then explain the situation to a judge.

    Food for thought; is a pregnant lady on an e-bike legit??? (Some gals get placards late term)
    I say yes. But the under 16 helmet law also applies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    I tend to be with Sean on the power limit. 750W is 3 times too.much. limit ebikes to 250W and most issues go away.

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    750W is one horsepower and a few cents change; since this puts e-bikers on parity with equestrians (one horse power!) it's probably a good benchmark.

    The other issue is that 750W is probably the minimum if the goal is to get people out of cars for general transportation uses; 750W gives a rider the zip to mix it up with city car traffic without breaking a sweat. A law with 2 power standards would be twice as complicated to implement.

    We could also talk about (more talk = socks for JC!) the genius of the e-bike mfg lobby in sneaking the CA law through the enactment process. A lower limit than the Feds but triple the p*ssy Europeans! (Go America! California will lead the way...)

    Pivotal was the language defining where the new law would permit the 3 classes of e-bikes to be ridden; many user groups had no idea that it would permit e-bikes on dirt trails. IMBA was totally "asleep at the switch". IMHO the Sierra Club was fully aware of this and since this would make it harder for any bikes to use dirt ST they let it slide through as written. (The SC is pro e-bike in the sense of getting people out of cars for commuting)

    * = "u" not "i" in this case.
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  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Allan View Post
    I'm not sure how you can argue this point, are you slower on your Nomad compared to your Bridgestone? I doubt it..
    I've raced on my Bridgestone A LOT more than on my Nomad in the past 10 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    I've raced on my Bridgestone A LOT more than on my Nomad in the past 10 years.
    and guys race fat bikes (also fat guys race bikes but that's another discussion)
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  21. #71
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    My issue with ebikes, is that it opens the door to small gas motors, that are very quiet. Gas motors the size of your shoe are about the same power as ebike motors, and probably have a smaller carbon footprint (if you are in to that kind of thing, Im not), than a coal power plant charging an e bike battery. Once you let ANY motor on trails, its a slippery slope. It seems easier for officials to ban all motors.

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    I'm missing most of my left lung. My breathing efficiency went from 85% to 63%. I really wanted a Felt e-bike when I started riding. So glad I stuck with human powered bikes.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    750W is one horsepower and a few cents change; since this puts e-bikers on parity with equestrians (one horse power!) it's probably a good benchmark.

    The other issue is that 750W is probably the minimum if the goal is to get people out of cars for general transportation uses; 750W gives a rider the zip to mix it up with city car traffic without breaking a sweat. A law with 2 power standards would be twice as complicated to implement.

    We could also talk about (more talk = socks for JC!) the genius of the e-bike mfg lobby in sneaking the CA law through the enactment process. A lower limit than the Feds but triple the p*ssy Europeans! (Go America! California will lead the way...
    You're going to have to help me out with the math here. So, the horse in this one horsepower equation has to move it's own 1000 pound weight plus 300 pounds of rich, white diesel truck driving rider. The cyclist in this scenario has an extra what, 25-30 pounds? I'm no genius but I think that is a pretty lousy reasoning for the 750 watt limit.

    Here's what I think is a more likely scenario. Bike companies figured out it was going to be impossible to sell a $6000 50 pound e-bike with say 250-300 watts that would "assist" you up a hill a bit. So they made it 500-750 watts that will do the work for you and at a world tour riders speed. Bam! Who wouldn't pay for that.......

    Strictly off road speaking, I get the urban commute argument entirely.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Allan View Post
    You're going to have to help me out with the math here. So, the horse in this one horsepower equation has to move it's own 1000 pound weight plus 300 pounds of rich, white diesel truck driving rider. The cyclist in this scenario has an extra what, 25-30 pounds? I'm no genius but I think that is a pretty lousy reasoning for the 750 watt limit.

    Here's what I think is a more likely scenario. Bike companies figured out it was going to be impossible to sell a $6000 50 pound e-bike with say 250-300 watts that would "assist" you up a hill a bit. So they made it 500-750 watts that will do the work for you and at a world tour riders speed. Bam! Who wouldn't pay for that.......

    Strictly off road speaking, I get the urban commute argument entirely.
    Is the diesel truck white or is the driver white? Both?

    FWIW I threw out the "horsepower" thing with a little bit of tongue'n'cheek; funny thing though James WATT is who created the horsepower standard. And the standard was for continuous duty (8 hr shift at the mines as I recall); most horses can put out a burst of many times that. So that makes 10kW e-bikes OK; right???
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    I tend to be with Sean on the power limit. 750W is 3 times too.much. limit ebikes to 250W and most issues go away.
    I'd agree that a 250W limit would eliminate most all issues, and the best way to have e-bikes accepted on the trail. But it's hard to enforce power output in a practical way. I've noted that parks that allow e-bikes simply regulate speed rather than power, limiting to 15 MPH like any user of the trail. And it's easily enforceable using existing equipment and procedures. This is just like we do on the road with motor vehicles. No matter how many HP your super car has under the hood, it's still limited to 65 MPH.
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  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Allan View Post
    You non racers who don't ride with a power meter crack me up. Yep, all of us Pro/Cat 1 guys can put out 750 watts. Sorry, very few of you even know what 750 sustained watts remotely looks like. Chris Froome's physiological test data released | Cyclingnews.com
    Wow, your being a Pro/Cat 1 racer explains your fantastic epic rides I see you posting. I don't understand your point though. Do you mean that some humans can reach the 750W of the e-bike, so an e-bike isn't that different from a human power. Or do you mean that 750W is rarely achieved by real humans?

    Those stats were interesting. Froome is definitely a different animal, small and high power, putting out 6.25 W/kg. I also read that Lance when doped could put out 7 W/kg, which is why he was sure he'd win the Tours.

    FWIW, I am definitely not a racer, but I have a power meter just for fun and accurately counting calories. I can sustain ~230W for an hour, and ~200W on all day rides. I often put out 700-1000W for about a minute to get up a short steep hill, until I'm turning purple due to my asthma. Unfortunately, my sustained power to weight is around 2 W/kg, hence I'm the last up a hill. No racer here.
    It's not slow, it's doing more MTB time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLarry View Post
    Wow, your being a Pro/Cat 1 racer explains your fantastic epic rides I see you posting. I don't understand your point though. Do you mean that some humans can reach the 750W of the e-bike, so an e-bike isn't that different from a human power. Or do you mean that 750W is rarely achieved by real humans?

    Those stats were interesting. Froome is definitely a different animal, small and high power, putting out 6.25 W/kg. I also read that Lance when doped could put out 7 W/kg, which is why he was sure he'd win the Tours.

    FWIW, I am definitely not a racer, but I have a power meter just for fun and accurately counting calories. I can sustain ~230W for an hour, and ~200W on all day rides. I often put out 700-1000W for about a minute to get up a short steep hill, until I'm turning purple due to my asthma. Unfortunately, my sustained power to weight is around 2 W/kg, hence I'm the last up a hill. No racer here.
    I should have left the racer part out about me or anyone else, it wasn't real relevant to the conversation. I only meant that most people don't realize how difficult 750 watts is physiologically, or what it feels like at the physiological level. It's really hard and large percentage of cyclists cant do it for more than a minute or two, if at all. I'm with Ron up there, I can do it, but I feel like I'll die when I'm finished. If you can do it for that amount of time, good for you.
    I find that most people think an e-bike is only equivalent to a fast racer dude, that's simply not true, it's equivalent to almost double the power of THE fastest racer dude. An e-bike allows anyone to reach the power of a Pro Tour level racer for extended periods of time. Someone who used to crest a hill at 3 mph now goes over at 12 and their overall speed on the trail increases exponentially. I don't think that overall speed increases of that magnitude are good for user interactions.

    You did notice that CF's 40 minute average was only 419 watts? That is a superhuman effort and likely does not reflect his true power, but does it not bother anyone that you could add another 330 watts to his performance on an e-bike?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLarry View Post
    Froome is definitely a different animal, small and high power, putting out 6.25 W/kg.
    There's also some compelling evidence (according to 60 Minutes) that the entire team was, at least on the time trial of the Tour, using bikes with motors. Regardless, I just assume those guys are doing good old-fashioned doping!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    Is the diesel truck white or is the driver white? Both?

    FWIW I threw out the "horsepower" thing with a little bit of tongue'n'cheek; funny thing though James WATT is who created the horsepower standard. And the standard was for continuous duty (8 hr shift at the mines as I recall); most horses can put out a burst of many times that. So that makes 10kW e-bikes OK; right???
    Foiled by the simple comma again..... My unscientific research concludes that both are correct. Their usually white women driving big white diesel trucks.

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    That being said, current batteries prevent folks from going all out for much more than 30mns. Turbo levo has a 400Wh battery, so one can't pull 750W for very long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Allan View Post
    I should have left the racer part out about me or anyone else, it wasn't real relevant to the conversation. I only meant that most people don't realize how difficult 750 watts is physiologically, or what it feels like at the physiological level. It's really hard and large percentage of cyclists cant do it for more than a minute or two, if at all. I'm with Ron up there, I can do it, but I feel like I'll die when I'm finished. If you can do it for that amount of time, good for you.
    I find that most people think an e-bike is only equivalent to a fast racer dude, that's simply not true, it's equivalent to almost double the power of THE fastest racer dude. An e-bike allows anyone to reach the power of a Pro Tour level racer for extended periods of time. Someone who used to crest a hill at 3 mph now goes over at 12 and their overall speed on the trail increases exponentially. I don't think that overall speed increases of that magnitude are good for user interactions.

    You did notice that CF's 40 minute average was only 419 watts? That is a superhuman effort and likely does not reflect his true power, but does it not bother anyone that you could add another 330 watts to his performance on an e-bike?
    Actually, I liked that you mentioned you were a Pro racer, it put your bike power comments in perspective. And it helps me understand your phenomenal epic Tahoe rides (even with an added power boost motivated by loss of a girl friend IIRC). What team were you on?

    So if someone goes uphill at 12 MPH instead of 3 MPH, that's still below the speed limit and perhaps half the speed of what many already do downhill on the trails. One would need to tamper one's speed on the uphill, just like one typically does already on the DH. So isn't it just a matter of expectations and etiquette rather than power?

    Yea, I saw that tremendous 419 W output by CF. I once calculated from simple physics (Power =M*g*H/time) that Lance put out over 500 W on his Alp d'Huez time trial. I later heard his team say he put out over 700 W for that 40 minutes, due to added wind resistance of climbing at 15 MPH. A 750W bike should be called "One Lance Power by e-dope".

    Oh, and just what we need - yet another e-bike thread for everyone to say their opinion once again, to no avail! Personally, I don't ride an e-bike (unless you count Di2). I want to get more fit and lose weight. But I do feel the fears are overblown just like hikers versus MTB in the past. We'll have a better sense of any threat and intrusion as the e-bikes become more common.
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  32. #82
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    I rode my dirt bike yesterday and strava'd it... It's an older 250 that puts out around 30 peak horsepower (22,371 watts?). Over the 34 miles that I remembered to have my phone on, I averaged 15 mph. I really think rider skill(I don't have much) and the difficulty of the trail will do a lot more for limiting rider speed than limiting electric motor power. I could have greased every single descent I rode yesterday faster on my mountain bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    I rode my dirt bike yesterday and strava'd it... It's an older 250 that puts out around 30 peak horsepower (22,371 watts?). Over the 34 miles that I remembered to have my phone on, I averaged 15 mph. I really think rider skill(I don't have much) and the difficulty of the trail will do a lot more for limiting rider speed than limiting electric motor power. I could have greased every single descent I rode yesterday faster on my mountain bike.
    The point is that if you come across a guy on an e-bike heading uphill, the closing speed between you is going to be significantly different than even a fast pro under his own power.

    On an e-bike I'd be generating almost 3x the watts per kilo I'd do under my own power. Until you get going 18-20mph, gravity and Crr are the two biggest impediments to climbing speed. So, almost tripling my w/kg ratio would almost triple my climbing speed.

    Imagine going down a descent and passing a climbing rider who is going 7mph vs one who is going 20mph.



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  34. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    The point is that if you come across a guy on an e-bike heading uphill, the closing speed between you is going to be significantly different than even a fast pro under his own power.

    On an e-bike I'd be generating almost 3x the watts per kilo I'd do under my own power. Until you get going 18-20mph, gravity and Crr are the two biggest impediments to climbing speed. So, almost tripling my w/kg ratio would almost triple my climbing speed.

    Imagine going down a descent and passing a climbing rider who is going 7mph vs one who is going 20mph.



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    Just a quick bit of real world data rather than speculation: I weight about 200 lbs and am in reasonably good shape on a bike. I'm not cat 1 xc racer fast up a hill but I'm not slow either. I had a chance to race a haibike sduro in the Sea Otter ebike race last year. I was the guy in the banana suit(different story). I would have finished on the lead lap with everyone, but snapped a chain(probably due to demo bike combined with ELECTRIC ASSIST WATTS!!!*@%^&*). The sduro had a yamaha motor rated at 500 watts. I topped out at ~12.5 mph on climbs according to my strava. This was an hour long race, so sure, I could sprint harder and go faster, but no way I could sustain faster than that on a continuous climb.


    But yes, encountering someone going 12.5 mph coming up hill while I'm coming down would be a lot different than someone going 7 mph. Of course from a hiker's perspective, someone passing them going down the trail would still be going by them faster than an ebike going up.

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    No -- not stranded. An e-bike requires the user to PEDAL and will work without the motor.

    Just one reason people who don't know what an e-bike is should not be making pronouncements about them.

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    Just consider that maybe mountain biking should be FUN. And if you are a person with a full time job living far from mtb trails, and you don't get to ride a lot -- mountain biking may not be fun, it is just hard. So maybe an e-bike (which is VERY different from a gas powered bicycle in that there is no throttle except the power you put into the drive train) is a way to open up mountain biking to more people. I know that might bum all of you out who have ownership or ego claims to the trails, but it's a great thing for the rest of us.

    I know a guy who used to just shuttle but now saves gas and gets more exercise than ever by riding his Levo up and then down. Then he continues his busy life of taking care of his job, kid, wife and extended family. Has he ever pissed anyone off by going too fast or riding like a jerk? The only complaints he's ever had are from racers who tell him he's cheating.

    Step away from the power meters and Strava and your last race and step into another world with the rest of us. There I think you might be able to take a more objective look at the bikes. They are good for those of us with disabilities, good for those of us wanting to get back into shape and have fun at the same time, and good for those of us who just want to have fun. They are have no throttle and are human powered, just with a little boost. To me, that all sounds like a win.

  37. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klarity View Post
    They are have no throttle and are human powered, just with a little boost. To me, that all sounds like a win.
    Hate to pop your bubble but in California e-bikes can have throttles and at the 750 watt legal max are like 3X Joe Blow's pedaling ability. Even a Levo is way more than 250W Euro-style pedalec.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klarity View Post
    Just consider that maybe mountain biking should be FUN. And if you are a person with a full time job living far from mtb trails, and you don't get to ride a lot -- mountain biking may not be fun, it is just hard. So maybe an e-bike (which is VERY different from a gas powered bicycle in that there is no throttle except the power you put into the drive train) is a way to open up mountain biking to more people. I know that might bum all of you out who have ownership or ego claims to the trails, but it's a great thing for the rest of us.

    I know a guy who used to just shuttle but now saves gas and gets more exercise than ever by riding his Levo up and then down. Then he continues his busy life of taking care of his job, kid, wife and extended family. Has he ever pissed anyone off by going too fast or riding like a jerk? The only complaints he's ever had are from racers who tell him he's cheating.

    Step away from the power meters and Strava and your last race and step into another world with the rest of us. There I think you might be able to take a more objective look at the bikes. They are good for those of us with disabilities, good for those of us wanting to get back into shape and have fun at the same time, and good for those of us who just want to have fun. They are have no throttle and are human powered, just with a little boost. To me, that all sounds like a win.
    It doesn't appear to me that anyone here has an ego problem but you. I just don't want to lose access to trails I ride because MTB ing is too hard for you and you've found an easy way to be faster than every other cyclist on the trail. For me it is strictly a speed thing, and not because you're faster than me on an e-bike or any other bike. If the average speed on any given trail goes up exponentially and the number one complaint used against us is closing speed and differing speeds between user groups, you are effecting my ability to ride my bike as I always have. I don't feel like having my access threatened because you think you're life is too hard to actually ride a bike, something most of us could do by the age of four and have somehow been able to continue to do as adults.

    If it's going to effect the access I have to ride my bike in any way, I'm against it.

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    I'm just disappointed they did not add a lighting bolt coming out of the riders ass

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  40. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klarity View Post
    Just consider that maybe mountain biking should be FUN. And if you are a person with a full time job living far from mtb trails, and you don't get to ride a lot -- mountain biking may not be fun, it is just hard. So maybe an e-bike (which is VERY different from a gas powered bicycle in that there is no throttle except the power you put into the drive train) is a way to open up mountain biking to more people. I know that might bum all of you out who have ownership or ego claims to the trails, but it's a great thing for the rest of us.

    I know a guy who used to just shuttle but now saves gas and gets more exercise than ever by riding his Levo up and then down. Then he continues his busy life of taking care of his job, kid, wife and extended family. Has he ever pissed anyone off by going too fast or riding like a jerk? The only complaints he's ever had are from racers who tell him he's cheating.

    Step away from the power meters and Strava and your last race and step into another world with the rest of us. There I think you might be able to take a more objective look at the bikes. They are good for those of us with disabilities, good for those of us wanting to get back into shape and have fun at the same time, and good for those of us who just want to have fun. They are have no throttle and are human powered, just with a little boost. To me, that all sounds like a win.
    I know plenty of people with full time jobs who manage to stay fit. They have marriages, kids, etc. You aren't unique in this regard.

    I worked 14-16hr days, 7 days a week in Afghanistan​ while deployed, yet managed to stay extremely fit by riding a stationary bike every night. In a plastic tent, watching old bike races on my phone. It can be done.



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    I have a marriage, two little kids, a full time job, and a pretty good beer gut. And I'm not a fan of racer boys or their strava achievements. Mountain biking is "hard". That's part of the reward.

  42. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Allan View Post
    It doesn't appear to me that anyone here has an ego problem but you. I just don't want to lose access to trails I ride because MTB ing is too hard for you and you've found an easy way to be faster than every other cyclist on the trail. For me it is strictly a speed thing, and not because you're faster than me on an e-bike or any other bike. If the average speed on any given trail goes up exponentially and the number one complaint used against us is closing speed and differing speeds between user groups, you are effecting my ability to ride my bike as I always have. I don't feel like having my access threatened because you think you're life is too hard to actually ride a bike, something most of us could do by the age of four and have somehow been able to continue to do as adults.

    If it's going to effect the access I have to ride my bike in any way, I'm against it.
    I don't disagree with you. But it's a slippery slope saying that speeds, and closing speeds, should outlaw e-bikes in particular. Plenty of super-fast pro riders around Marin would give most e-bikes and their riders a run for the money, uphill and down. And for what it's worth, a hiker is going to be a lot more sensitive to someone bombing down than coming up.

    But, really, I think the danger is in the non-cyclist community not understanding what an e-bike is and what it can do, and using it as a reason to ban all bikes, or highlight speed issues (where there really aren't any). We have a hard enough time figuring it out on our own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BStrummin View Post
    I have a marriage, two little kids, a full time job, and a pretty good beer gut. And I'm not a fan of racer boys or their strava achievements. Mountain biking is "hard". That's part of the reward.
    Hear, hear...!

    I have a marriage, two grown kids, full retired, and a pretty good beer gut. And I'm not a fan of racer boys or their strava achievements. Mountain biking is "hard". That's part of the reward.

    E-biking is a legitimate sport but it's not "mountain biking". It's somewhere between biking and motorcycling and needs to find its own place on the planet. Can it co-exist with other activities in some places? Sure; but not everywhere bikes are allowed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKD View Post
    I don't disagree with you. But it's a slippery slope saying that speeds, and closing speeds, should outlaw e-bikes in particular. Plenty of super-fast pro riders around Marin would give most e-bikes and their riders a run for the money, uphill and down. And for what it's worth, a hiker is going to be a lot more sensitive to someone bombing down than coming up.

    But, really, I think the danger is in the non-cyclist community not understanding what an e-bike is and what it can do, and using it as a reason to ban all bikes, or highlight speed issues (where there really aren't any). We have a hard enough time figuring it out on our own.
    That's just simply not true. NO pro riders in Marin, or anywhere else are putting out sustained 750 watt efforts, I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand this. Even if that was the case, do you think more extremely fast riders are a good idea? I don't. That's what an e-bike does, it allows everyone who rides one to be the fastest person on the trail at any given time. A hiker is going to be sensitive to someone going fast no matter what type of riding is being done, up, down, flat. It all looks the same to someone moving 15-20 MPH slower than the cyclist. All e-bikes do is add to the overall speed of the MTB trail use. That perfect rider that used to average 7 mph on any given ride can now average 15 or more. That speed difference looks a lot different to every user, bikes included.

    Do you honestly think that speeds by MTB users on multi use trails is not the number one issue facing us? If not, what is it? I know my number one issue with bikes is speed and lack of thinking more than 5 feet in front of their wheel. If I'm getting run into and off the trail by other bikes on predominantly MTB only trails, what do you think it looks like for other non wheeled users? I'm at the point now that I don't ride the upper Auburn trails on a weekend morning, just too many idiots riding beyond their skill level. No one dares ride a horse on any of those trail on a weekend either, walkers and runners only go very early or not at all. I know a crap load of endurance runners in the area, I'm not making this shit up.

    You can stick your head in the sand and pronounce us the persecuted and innocent, I try to be a bit more open minded about what we face and how we effect others.

    I'll add again, I'm not anti e-bikes. Make them all 350 watts and I have no problem.

  45. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Allan View Post
    That's just simply not true. NO pro riders in Marin, or anywhere else are putting out sustained 750 watt efforts, I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand this. Even if that was the case, do you think more extremely fast riders are a good idea? I don't. That's what an e-bike does, it allows everyone who rides one to be the fastest person on the trail at any given time. A hiker is going to be sensitive to someone going fast no matter what type of riding is being done, up, down, flat. It all looks the same to someone moving 15-20 MPH slower than the cyclist. All e-bikes do is add to the overall speed of the MTB trail use. That perfect rider that used to average 7 mph on any given ride can now average 15 or more. That speed difference looks a lot different to every user, bikes included.

    Do you honestly think that speeds by MTB users on multi use trails is not the number one issue facing us? If not, what is it? I know my number one issue with bikes is speed and lack of thinking more than 5 feet in front of their wheel. If I'm getting run into and off the trail by other bikes on predominantly MTB only trails, what do you think it looks like for other non wheeled users? I'm at the point now that I don't ride the upper Auburn trails on a weekend morning, just too many idiots riding beyond their skill level. No one dares ride a horse on any of those trail on a weekend either, walkers and runners only go very early or not at all. I know a crap load of endurance runners in the area, I'm not making this shit up.

    You can stick your head in the sand and pronounce us the persecuted and innocent, I try to be a bit more open minded about what we face and how we effect others.

    I'll add again, I'm not anti e-bikes. Make them all 350 watts and I have no problem.
    A lot to unpack here. Mostly just trying to communicate the "same team, Farva" message.

    I haven't encountered an e-bike roaring uphill in dangerous fashion (and before Linda Novy uses this at the next MCOSD meeting, I've copyrighted it and expect royalties). Yes, they can put out 750 watts at peak power. But my understanding is that the e-assist is linked to pedaling, and that riding at full blast will deplete the battery pretty quickly. I do see e-bikes heading up 6% grades at the same 10-15 mph as some of the super fast riders though. Which is why I think this is a slippery slope argument. For what it's worth, I don't equate "pro" or "fast" riders with dangerous behavior. As you note, it's people who don't think ahead, and who ride beyond their sightlines, that make me understand why we can't have nice things.

    Yes, speed is the number 1 issue. But to me, it's downhill speed, as it's a lot easier to stop (even an e-bike doing 15 mph) going uphill than it is any bike (or horse) going downhill. Ask whether your endurance runner friends stopped running because of uphill riders.

    I'm no head-in-the-sand kind of guy. There are *******s who ride bicycles, just like there are *******s who swing hiking poles at cyclists, or *******s that gallop their horse past a cyclist with less than a foot to spare on a 15 foot wide fire road. Do I think e-bikes will lead to more ******* cyclists ruining it for the rest of us? I'm not sure. But I am sure that us arguing for bans on e-bikes because of closing speeds will be used against...us.

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    Funny, an ebike passed me during the Cool MTB race last Sunday.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Allan View Post
    ....

    Do you honestly think that speeds by MTB users on multi use trails is not the number one issue facing us? If not, what is it? I know my number one issue with bikes is speed and lack of thinking more than 5 feet in front of their wheel. If I'm getting run into and off the trail by other bikes on predominantly MTB only trails, what do you think it looks like for other non wheeled users? I'm at the point now that I don't ride the upper Auburn trails on a weekend morning, just too many idiots riding beyond their skill level.....
    It's not the bike it's the idiots riding too fast and/or beyond their skill level. You can be Cam Zink but if you are riding too fast around a blind corner you are an idiot. I have turbo Levo and a regular MTB - yes I ride faster on an e-bike when I have clear sight, I ride the same speed when it warrants. I am always super curteous and come to a crawl around hikers or horses.

    It is the rider not the bike!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKD View Post
    A lot to unpack here. Mostly just trying to communicate the "same team, Farva" message.

    I haven't encountered an e-bike roaring uphill in dangerous fashion (and before Linda Novy uses this at the next MCOSD meeting, I've copyrighted it and expect royalties). Yes, they can put out 750 watts at peak power. But my understanding is that the e-assist is linked to pedaling, and that riding at full blast will deplete the battery pretty quickly. I do see e-bikes heading up 6% grades at the same 10-15 mph as some of the super fast riders though. Which is why I think this is a slippery slope argument. For what it's worth, I don't equate "pro" or "fast" riders with dangerous behavior. As you note, it's people who don't think ahead, and who ride beyond their sightlines, that make me understand why we can't have nice things.

    Yes, speed is the number 1 issue. But to me, it's downhill speed, as it's a lot easier to stop (even an e-bike doing 15 mph) going uphill than it is any bike (or horse) going downhill. Ask whether your endurance runner friends stopped running because of uphill riders.

    I'm no head-in-the-sand kind of guy. There are *******s who ride bicycles, just like there are *******s who swing hiking poles at cyclists, or *******s that gallop their horse past a cyclist with less than a foot to spare on a 15 foot wide fire road. Do I think e-bikes will lead to more ******* cyclists ruining it for the rest of us? I'm not sure. But I am sure that us arguing for bans on e-bikes because of closing speeds will be used against...us.
    I certainly don't think were on opposing sides and I appreciate your opinion. I will argue your uphill riders scenario though. So, fast guy crests the hill at 15 in your world and hits 25 by say mid way down the next down hill. Normal guy crests the hill at 5 and never hits 25 anywhere because he's gassed and his overall speed is lower at the top.

    Which rider do you want to encounter while you're riding up? We'll take skill out of the occasion in this and just focus on speed.

    I don't speak for everyone, but I know if I crest a roller at 15, I'm moving much faster, much sooner on the downhill side.

    I don't think we're going to have a problem with the antis not supporting e-bikes regardless of what the greater mountain bike community thinks of them, that's a given isn't it? I'm not guessing I'll even need to voice my opinion to a land manager about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bmiller71 View Post
    It's not the bike it's the idiots riding too fast and/or beyond their skill level. You can be Cam Zink but if you are riding too fast around a blind corner you are an idiot. I have turbo Levo and a regular MTB - yes I ride faster on an e-bike when I have clear sight, I ride the same speed when it warrants. I am always super curteous and come to a crawl around hikers or horses.

    It is the rider not the bike!!!!
    Agreed. But you "could" ride much faster on your e-bike, you choose not to. That is what creates the dilemma.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Allan View Post
    I certainly don't think were on opposing sides and I appreciate your opinion. I will argue your uphill riders scenario though. So, fast guy crests the hill at 15 in your world and hits 25 by say mid way down the next down hill. Normal guy crests the hill at 5 and never hits 25 anywhere because he's gassed and his overall speed is lower at the top.

    Which rider do you want to encounter while you're riding up? We'll take skill out of the occasion in this and just focus on speed.

    I don't speak for everyone, but I know if I crest a roller at 15, I'm moving much faster, much sooner on the downhill side.

    I don't think we're going to have a problem with the antis not supporting e-bikes regardless of what the greater mountain bike community thinks of them, that's a given isn't it? I'm not guessing I'll even need to voice my opinion to a land manager about it.
    Maybe it's the terrain we ride, but I don't see the 5 vs 15 at the top being significant. In Marin (and most of the riding I do in Tahoe and parts north), most of the bike-legal stuff is all up, then all down. So there's not a lot of difference in max speeds after maybe the first 30 feet. And things that are more up-and-down, like Tamarancho, have natural speed limits built into the trail system. Perhaps the true danger of an e-bike is on something like the TRT between Tahoe City and Brockway, but sight lines are pretty good, and trail users aren't nearly as obnoxious as other parts of the world.

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