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  1. #1
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    Midpen on a ticketing rampage again

    This occurred on the Stevens Canyon fire road descent, (going from Page Mill headed to Grizzly) It's a long downhill, far from hiking activity.

    Midpen on a ticketing rampage again-22538806_10211990302967946_7544896615028609114_o.jpg

    Fine is $400+ per ticket for going above 15mph as measured by a radar gun.

    They've been seen almost everyday too at Fremont Older, St. Joes Hill, Saratoga Gap, Skeggs giving tickets, rarely doing any trail maintenance or work.

    The surprising thing is they're giving cars tickets now too. Last week they ticketed a friend driving at Mt. Umunum road. And then cars on Skyline blvd. Doesn't make sense.

    I've lived and biked around them for the last 25 years and they're one of the worst groups for mountain biking. But it really seems like it's getting worse with no hope.
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    The only way to stop it is to defund the park system.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    The only way to stop it is to defund the park system.


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    The only way to stop it is to get an attorney and fight every ticket. When tickets are unprofitable the focus changes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    The only way to stop it is to get an attorney and fight every ticket. When tickets are unprofitable the focus changes.
    Enforcers are gonna enforce. It only changes at the budget level.


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    Hopeless. I'll never ride there - they win.

    Are the rangers able to moving vehicles tickets, or just parking-related?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    The only way to stop it is to get an attorney and fight every ticket. When tickets are unprofitable the focus changes.
    Definitely fight the tickets and never pay their full fee.

    It’s become obvious now though that they’re not interested in the revenue. That’s why hiker fines and enforcement are minuscule. What they want is to inflict as much pain as possible to the biker to stop the violation and/or drive them away.
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    Driving them away is clearly the goal.

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    Hypothetically speaking, what if MTBR calls for a public demonstration at a zero fun downhill trail such as Kennedy (may be during the turkey ride) where a few hundred riders together and purposely exceed the 15 mph limit. Obviously even with police backup, there wont be anyway for them to control the situation or ticket everyone.

    Would we have then made a very clear statement to mid-pen?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loll View Post
    Hypothetically speaking, what if MTBR calls for a public demonstration at a zero fun downhill trail such as Kennedy (may be during the turkey ride) where a few hundred riders together and purposely exceed the 15 mph limit. Obviously even with police backup, there wont be anyway for them to control the situation or ticket everyone.

    Would we have then made a very clear statement to mid-pen?
    While I applaud the idea in concept, this would likely just spur bad feelings like a Critical Mass event.
    "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

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    Were they above or below the Indian Creek trail cut in?
    I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not so sure.

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    I took the opposite approach. There was a ranger coming through the gate as I started down the North Ridge Trail at Purisima. I descended as slowly as possible.

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DH40 View Post
    Hopeless. I'll never ride there - they win.
    Ditto. We live in San Jose, so I'm about 30 minutes away from several Midpen trailheads. I can't tell you the last time I rode there. I'd rather poach, I mean hike, than deal with rangers and tickets.
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    Go to court. I got ticketed there as well, and had a few people on my thread provide some insight and help. The issues I tried to bring up (I can't remember the feedback from the forum though) was that I'm being penalized in a public court with fines equivalent to an automobile, yet MidPen is excluded from the same requirements to establish limits. The auto speed limits require safety studies to be done, yet MidPen doesn't...yet conveniently they can target one group of user based on an arbitrary speed and charge them in our public courts with $$$$ fines. The officer brought up safety, and I challenged him on how many people were on the trail...2 bikers in 2 hours...clearly not a 'safety' issue. I also challenged how he knew it was me when I came around a corner and there was another rider behind me...reasonable doubt?...the judge was yawning. But it's good to see several rangers that had nothing better to do but use our tax money to sit in a court room.

    Anyway, the judge dropped the fine to $200.

  14. #14
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    I was at Skeggs a couple years back and saw one of the rangers doing a speed trap on Timber View. So I stopped and very loudly warned other mtbers of her presence for 10 minutes. Got her to put the radar gun away and drive back up to the top of the preserve. Earned a nasty stare from the ranger as well.

    I'm always a little shocked when I run into hikers at Skeggs. It's so obviously a mountain bike place, and being one of the only legal fun places to ride for ~3 million people, it's not surprising that it gets busy. With the other MCOSD properties to the north and south (that allow hiking but limit or ban biking), the conflict would go away if they made Skeggs a bike-only or bike-priority place.

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    i'm not sure of the exact amounts but the signs in Pogonip say something like $60 for illegal campfire and $200 for riding bike on illegal trails. Which is potential worse? it's crazy

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    Can't we all just get along!?

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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by infotekt View Post
    i'm not sure of the exact amounts but the signs in Pogonip say something like $60 for illegal campfire and $200 for riding bike on illegal trails. Which is potential worse? it's crazy
    Bikes are the problem, obviously


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  18. #18
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    No need to go to court and fight it, do it via the mail “trial by written declaration", I had one reduced from 400 to 200, another $400 poaching ticket I got totally throw out and got all my money back. If your not satisfied with the fight by mail outcome you can still go to court, so you have two chances for a better outcome.

    Anyway does not take much effort to fight it by mail, causes more paperwork and time for the court system and Midpen and everyone I know who has done it has gotten cash back, fight every one!

  19. #19
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    Mommy I want to grow up and be a Midpen Ranger. I want to save mountain bikers from high speed crashes. I can't do that working for other land managers?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeBC View Post
    No need to go to court and fight it, do it via the mail “trial by written declaration", I had one reduced from 400 to 200, another $400 poaching ticket I got totally throw out and got all my money back. If your not satisfied with the fight by mail outcome you can still go to court, so you have two chances for a better outcome.

    Anyway does not take much effort to fight it by mail, causes more paperwork and time for the court system and Midpen and everyone I know who has done it has gotten cash back, fight every one!
    That’s good info, thanks.

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    What happens if you don't stop?
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    What happens if you don't stop?
    If you don't stop, it quickly escalates to evasion or resisting arrest and their fury can descend down on you with Motorola rangers and a fleet of rangers.

    If you give a false name, and have no ID, they check your information with dispatch (height, weight, eye color) and if it doesn' match, it can escalate again and they can call the sheriff.

    Does it go on the driving record??? Answer is NO for Midpen and most trail tickets. Public road tickets written by the sherrif... usually yes.
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  23. #23
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    Midpen rangers were out in force again with radar guns at Fremont Older. The place was deserted but I saw three ranger driving around.

    Although they do not care about revenue from fines (since they have hundreds of millions of our tax $$), I heard each ranger assigned to patrol is expected to write a certain number of bike citations each month?Midpen on a ticketing rampage again-img_1451.heic.jpg
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    If you don't stop, it quickly escalates to evasion or resisting arrest and their fury can descend down on you with Motorola rangers and a fleet of rangers.

    If you give a false name, and have no ID, they check your information with dispatch (height, weight, eye color) and if it doesn' match, it can escalate again and they can call the sheriff.

    Does it go on the driving record??? Answer is NO for Midpen and most trail tickets. Public road tickets written by the sherrif... usually yes.
    How much over 15 mph were you going?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    If you don't stop, it quickly escalates to evasion or resisting arrest and their fury can descend down on you with Motorola rangers and a fleet of rangers.

    If you give a false name, and have no ID, they check your information with dispatch (height, weight, eye color) and if it doesn' match, it can escalate again and they can call the sheriff.

    Does it go on the driving record??? Answer is NO for Midpen and most trail tickets. Public road tickets written by the sherrif... usually yes.
    Wow! Must be nice to live an area with no crime to have such resources available.
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  26. #26
    R38
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    The Rangers only work in these parks and so no "Resources," are not being taken away from other areas.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by R38 View Post
    The Rangers only work in these parks and so no "Resources," are not being taken away from other areas.
    Is that right? Public courts cost money. Not sure who pays their salaries etc. , but would assume at least a portion is public funds.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKD View Post
    I was at Skeggs a couple years back and saw one of the rangers doing a speed trap on Timber View. So I stopped and very loudly warned other mtbers of her presence for 10 minutes. Got her to put the radar gun away and drive back up to the top of the preserve. Earned a nasty stare from the ranger as well.
    Every single MTBer should do this. Take turns if you have to. If you see a ranger, ride back up a bit to warn the next rider coming down. Then it's there turn to wait for the next rider until the ranger finds this is not worth their effort. When you ride past them go as slow as possible. Do a frigging track stand in front of their truck. Ask them for thier name and ID number just to keep track of the activity. Everyone needs to stop getting singled out just for riding a bike. Heck, tell them to police people walking their dogs leaving dog crap on the ground while you're at it.
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    ^^^Hell yeah...clean up that dog sh!t 💩👻🤘🏽

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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    Not sure who pays their salaries
    We do! We are all paying for the privilege of getting hassled on ever ride, the court cost, the radar guns, their trucks. We pay for it all and shouldn't forget that little detail
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  31. #31
    R38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtrider127 View Post
    Every single MTBer should do this. Take turns if you have to. If you see a ranger, ride back up a bit to warn the next rider coming down. Then it's there turn to wait for the next rider until the ranger finds this is not worth their effort. When you ride past them go as slow as possible. Do a frigging track stand in front of their truck. Ask them for thier name and ID number just to keep track of the activity. Everyone needs to stop getting singled out just for riding a bike. Heck, tell them to police people walking their dogs leaving dog crap on the ground while you're at it.
    So do they not ticket people who have dogs off leash or who do not pick up after their animals? I am really curious about how fast you have to go to get a ticket. Yes, I agree that if they are ticketing people who going 5 mph over the limit that is ridiculous. But if a trail is multi use how do you look to other users if you are going 15 or 20 over the speed limit?

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    I love Oregon..

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob-o View Post
    I love Oregon..
    Did you move?

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    Quote Originally Posted by griz View Post
    Did you move?
    Not yet. Each time I return from Oregon I really weigh the reasons why I stay in the bay area. A native here, but damn, it's getting bad!

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by R38 View Post
    I am really curious about how fast you have to go to get a ticket. Yes, I agree that if they are ticketing people who going 5 mph over the limit that is ridiculous. But if a trail is multi use how do you look to other users if you are going 15 or 20 over the speed limit?
    On Facebook I'm pretty sure he said the ticket was for going 17mph, which is 2mph over the speed limit.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by monkies View Post
    Go to court. I got ticketed there as well, and had a few people on my thread provide some insight and help. The issues I tried to bring up (I can't remember the feedback from the forum though) was that I'm being penalized in a public court with fines equivalent to an automobile, yet MidPen is excluded from the same requirements to establish limits. The auto speed limits require safety studies to be done, yet MidPen doesn't...yet conveniently they can target one group of user based on an arbitrary speed and charge them in our public courts with $$$$ fines. The officer brought up safety, and I challenged him on how many people were on the trail...2 bikers in 2 hours...clearly not a 'safety' issue. I also challenged how he knew it was me when I came around a corner and there was another rider behind me...reasonable doubt?...the judge was yawning. But it's good to see several rangers that had nothing better to do but use our tax money to sit in a court room.

    Anyway, the judge dropped the fine to $200.
    Your argument is pretty solid actually. For radar citations on public roads, the law enforcement agency is required to complete a "speed survey". A speed survey is when they go out and radar every vehicle coming down that road over a set period of time and then find the average speed that is driven in that area. If the average speed is 40 mph, they'd never win a court case written for 40 mph even if the speed limit is posted as 30 mph. Furthermore, California operates under trees "basic speed law" principle in which the officer/sheriff/ranger should have to prove that whatever speed you were riding was unsafe for the present conditions. Based on what you wrote here, I don't think that would be possible so the judge reducing the fine was improper as the case should have been dismissed.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Mommy I want to grow up and be a Midpen Ranger. I want to save mountain bikers from high speed crashes. I can't do that working for other land managers?
    I'm sure you're too old to apply. Stick to your goals of running the Forest Service office in Sedona.
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    If you don't stop, it quickly escalates to evasion or resisting arrest and their fury can descend down on you with Motorola rangers and a fleet of rangers.

    If you give a false name, and have no ID, they check your information with dispatch (height, weight, eye color) and if it doesn' match, it can escalate again and they can call the sheriff.

    Does it go on the driving record??? Answer is NO for Midpen and most trail tickets. Public road tickets written by the sherrif... usually yes.
    According to the MidPen website, the rangers are actually peace officers while they are performing their duties. MidPen policies may limit they replace officer powers to MidPen properties, I have no idea as I don't live up there. If you don't stop for a peace officer in a situation like this and he wants to pursue you, you will most likely be charged with Delaying/Obstructing a Peace Officer per 148 PC. The evading section in CA (2800.1 CVC) doesn't apply to suspects on bicycles or when the officer is on foot or a bicycle.

    Verifying your identity is rather easy so you definitely don't want to lie. If you're stupid enough to give information of an actual person (like a brother's name and date of birth for instance), you can be charged with a felony.

    As mountain biker, I think it's completely stupid that an arbitrary 15 MPH speed limit exists but for those of you bashing the rangers themselves, they are a cog in the system and if their superiors are instructing them to write the citations, that's what they will do rather they agree with it of not. It's no different than a painter who is told to paint a house a color he doesn't approve of. He may know it looks terrible but that's not his decision to make. As far as the rumor that the rangers are required to write a certain amount of citations, that is a quota and it's illegal in the State of CA. Cities have paid out $100's of 1000's of dollars for trying to enforce quotes on officers in the past.
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  39. #39
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    Thanks to my 1x gearing and short-travel suspension, I find it hard to go over 15 mph anyway.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by R38 View Post
    So do they not ticket people who have dogs off leash or who do not pick up after their animals? I am really curious about how fast you have to go to get a ticket. Yes, I agree that if they are ticketing people who going 5 mph over the limit that is ridiculous. But if a trail is multi use how do you look to other users if you are going 15 or 20 over the speed limit?
    I've seen them ticket dogs at Skeggs (not allowed at all), for what its worth

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    After getting a $320 dog off leash ticket, I was told to, "have a nice day" by the Ranger. I stared in disbelieve and told the nice lady that she was very confused about what having a nice day was all about....
    Anyway, I have only seen ranges be within 100 yards of their rig, so that usually means at the bottom of a trail or if there is an adjacent road to the trail. Fire roads are basically done.

    So how can they enforce a speed limit if a speed measuring/controlling device is not required equipment on a bike. Seems like there is an arguable hole here.

  42. #42
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    I actually feel bad for the Rangers for having to enforce a stupid ass rule. I live in a couple of different places (Idaho and Georgia) as well as the Bay Area and only in the Bay Area do I feel like I'm breaking the law 90% of the time when I ride dirt. Even SoCal is better than this.

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    $400 for "speeding" on a mountain bike, that's more than it cost to get caught riding a bicycle in USFS wilderness a few years back. I feel bad for you guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    Your argument is pretty solid actually. For radar citations on public roads, the law enforcement agency is required to complete a "speed survey". A speed survey is when they go out and radar every vehicle coming down that road over a set period of time and then find the average speed that is driven in that area. If the average speed is 40 mph, they'd never win a court case written for 40 mph even if the speed limit is posted as 30 mph. Furthermore, California operates under trees "basic speed law" principle in which the officer/sheriff/ranger should have to prove that whatever speed you were riding was unsafe for the present conditions. Based on what you wrote here, I don't think that would be possible so the judge reducing the fine was improper as the case should have been dismissed.
    Doesn't apply. Speed surveys and all the court rigamarole you describe only apply to roads and highways where the California Vehicle Code is enforceable. Most likely the tickets a mountain biker receives in Mid Pen are written against a Mid Pen special district code...similar to a municipal code. And because they own the code the ticket is written against, they also determine what the parameters are for someone violating it and for the "officers" enforcing it. There may be some oversight by the Judicial Council of California for Mid Pen's laws, but it is probably only a very cursory review.

    As far as Mid Pen's rangers police powers...when they are on duty they can enforce any law in their code or the codes held by the State of California unless the code sections specifically says they cannot. One of the reasons they call in the local sheriff when they pursue heavier VC, Penal, or Health and Safety codes is probably a policy thing. Another reason is when things get heavier than a simple mountain bike speeding ticket more likely than not the Sheriff is needed for the backup, muscle, transport, etc....plus the worse the miscreant the bigger possibility the bad guy has existing warrants.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtrider127 View Post
    Every single MTBer should do this. Take turns if you have to. If you see a ranger, ride back up a bit to warn the next rider coming down. Then it's there turn to wait for the next rider until the ranger finds this is not worth their effort. When you ride past them go as slow as possible. Do a frigging track stand in front of their truck. Ask them for thier name and ID number just to keep track of the activity. Everyone needs to stop getting singled out just for riding a bike. Heck, tell them to police people walking their dogs leaving dog crap on the ground while you're at it.
    Isn't this obstructing a peace officer in duty? Wouldn't they be able to issue a ticket for this?

    Imagine spotting a CHP doing speed trap in a drive way, and you hold a big sign for on-coming traffic warning them of the exact location of the CHP officer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by griz View Post
    ^^^Hell yeah...clean up that dog sh!t 落
    This gives me an idea. Whenever the rangers are about, everyone makes a point of cleaning up bags of dogshit that's left on the trail. They then deliver bags of dogshit to the authorities for proper disposal.

    Also: apps like Strava need to up their game and add Waze-like functionality so that speed traps can be tagged on the fly.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by flipnidaho View Post
    I actually feel bad for the Rangers for having to enforce a stupid ass rule. I live in a couple of different places (Idaho and Georgia) as well as the Bay Area and only in the Bay Area do I feel like I'm breaking the law 90% of the time when I ride dirt. Even SoCal is better than this.
    I used to know half a dozen rangers assigned to my local parks. Very friendly and some of them biked. They did not like being forced to write a certain number of tickets per month to bikers. A bunch of them were cyclists.

    Now, it seems they are ALL gone.

    They have a whole new bunch of rangers and trucks and signs and equipment.

    Sign of the times but what can we do except for express outrage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    I used to know half a dozen rangers assigned to my local parks. Very friendly and some of them biked. They did not like being forced to write a certain number of tickets per month to bikers. A bunch of them were cyclists.

    Now, it seems they are ALL gone.

    They have a whole new bunch of rangers and trucks and signs and equipment.

    Sign of the times but what can we do except for express outrage.
    Well, mountain biking has always been a bit of an outlaw sport. To be an outlaw, you have to have laws to break!

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    Let's not go A.(R).A.B. on the uniformed players, but hate this Game. They are neither protecting nor serving the most dedicated, numerous, and intrepid user group in many of these 'Spaces' It's depressing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    Well, mountain biking has always been a bit of an outlaw sport. To be an outlaw, you have to have laws to break!
    "As they scrambled and hurtled down the cliff to avoid a persistent gang of pursuing rangers, the VC, the lawyer and fifty-eight year old doctor huddled around their bikes and asked their kids not to tell their moms that they exceeded the 15mph limit. "
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    Quote Originally Posted by griz View Post
    Did you move?
    Quote Originally Posted by bob-o View Post
    Not yet. Each time I return from Oregon I really weigh the reasons why I stay in the bay area. A native here, but damn, it's getting bad!
    oregon looking better and better to escape this 3rd world country we call California.
    Lead by my Lefty............... right down the trail, no brakes.

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    I LOVE Europe!
    In Germany there are no speed limits on trails (and on some Autobahn sections neither ;-)
    Because each local authority has to proof that a regulation does make sense.
    So a 70km/h limit around a critical highway ramp does make sense.
    In that sense a 15mph speed limit on like all trails of Freemont Older doesnīt make sense. There is sections where 15mph would be way too fast, impossible to ride, while there is others where you could easily do 25 without any safety risks associated.
    However, there is some code law in Germany around speed, which obviously donīt exist here: you have to be able to control your vehicle / bike at any time - in a way that you have to be able to stop in line of sight.
    Makes way more sense.
    And 400$ tickets for mountainbikers are so what far over the top - that makes me want to move back to good old Germany even more....
    This entire "sorry, itīs a business, so I rip you off - donīt take it personal" mentality SUCKS over here....it really does...
    Bernd

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    I was at skeggs on Sunday and luckily I noticed a ranger lady standing in a trail. I slowly rode by and just said hello. She was standing in the middle of the trail pretty deep in the park. All she had was a big SLR camera. I didn't notice a radar gun. Was not sure if she was surveying trail conditions or if she was trying to photograph speeders. Has anyone else seen anything similar?

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    I love these threads. Thank you MTBR for keeping all the fat grandpas on $5K bikes off the trails for fear of getting fined $400.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R38 View Post
    The Rangers only work in these parks and so no "Resources," are not being taken away from other areas.
    With all the fires in Sonoma and Napa, they sure could be doing more with their time than sitting in trucks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantastic79 View Post
    I was at skeggs on Sunday and luckily I noticed a ranger lady standing in a trail. I slowly rode by and just said hello. She was standing in the middle of the trail pretty deep in the park. All she had was a big SLR camera. I didn't notice a radar gun. Was not sure if she was surveying trail conditions or if she was trying to photograph speeders. Has anyone else seen anything similar?
    Where exactly? We should tabulate the most frequent spots.

    I usually see them in one of three places:
    - Coming down Fir standing in the clearing across from the start of Resolution
    - Coming down Timberview at the clearing where Giant Salamander starts
    - Coming down Springboard at the junction of the connector that goes to Lawrence Creek, where you pass through on your way to Blue Blossom.

    See three red dots:
    Midpen on a ticketing rampage again-skeggs-ranger-danger.jpg

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    There are a good amount of trails that i have dicovered over the years around south bay and lower peninsula that dont involve mid-pen 15mph rule.

    Dog, Arastra, Alum, Mission, demo, uc., Teresa...Key is city own park or eastbay. QSilver or JGrant both look to be SCC owned. Can't recall I saw ranger at either locations before. Anyone can confirm?

    If you are in Silicon valley, the choices are pretty good. Not top rated, but decent riding.

    At one point I thought mid-pen stuffs are best on dawn patrol. But a month ago at St. Joseph at barely sunrise, the guy ahead of me got ticketed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ohmygato View Post
    I love these threads. Thank you MTBR for keeping all the fat grandpas on $5K bikes off the trails for fear of getting fined $400.
    Why stereotype grandpas as riders of cheap bikes? I'm sure plenty of them can afford normally priced $9000 Nomads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    Where exactly? We should tabulate the most frequent spots.

    I usually see them in one of three places:
    - Coming down Fir standing in the clearing across from the start of Resolution
    - Coming down Timberview at the clearing where Giant Salamander starts
    - Coming down Springboard at the junction of the connector that goes to Lawrence Creek, where you pass through on your way to Blue Blossom.

    See three red dots:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Skeggs Ranger Danger.jpg 
Views:	130 
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ID:	1164195
    The speed trap I saw was Timberview just above Giant Salamander.

    Another ranger was camped on Fir between Tafoni and Methuselah yelling at people who rode up the big berms on the side of the fire road.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DH40 View Post
    Why stereotype grandpas as riders of cheap bikes? I'm sure plenty of them can afford normally priced $9000 Nomads.
    disgruntled stereotyping is his speciality. #sad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loll View Post
    Isn't this obstructing a peace officer in duty? Wouldn't they be able to issue a ticket for this?

    Imagine spotting a CHP doing speed trap in a drive way, and you hold a big sign for on-coming traffic warning them of the exact location of the CHP officer.
    No. Doing something like this is perfectly legal. It is not keeping the officer from any function of their duty...of course if you do something that keeps them from pursuing a suspect, and it is determined you did whatever act that was intentionally to waylay the officer then you are guilty of a crime...I forget the Penal Code section, but have seen it used several times.

    It is also illegal to interfere with an investigation by an officer...this is something many people misunderstand, thinking an investigation involves not the uniformed officers but the ones wearing the cheap suits and ties or CSI personnel in tyvek bunnysuits scouring a crime scene. From this particular legal standpoint, if an officer has determined there is a possibility of a crime (of any type...including minor code violations such as speeding on a mountain bike) having been committed, the officer's act of "looking into the matter" until some conclusion (in this case usually a citation being issued) is considered an investigation. Sooooo....if a ranger is already in the process of citing someone and you cause some sort of problem that keeps the ranger from completing this duty they can tag you with interference...usually a misdemeanor.

    In California it is not a crime to make the public aware of a location of an officer who has set up an enforcement position on the road or highway as long as the method you are using cannot be misconstrued as an attempt at controlling or regulating traffic, which can be considered a distraction. Holding up signs or painting words on the roadway falls under this (words on the roadway is what the kids at my highschool in the 1980's did with the speedtraps the local motorcops would set up...writing "COP" and a big arrow pointing where one was hiding...worked very well but was illegal). This is all for on-road...for off-road I do not know of anything in CA State law that makes it illegal to hold up a sign or verbally warn other riders of a ranger speed trap. They may have something in the local Mid Pen code that forbids this, but I doubt it.
    "You're messing with my zen thing, man!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    I used to know half a dozen rangers assigned to my local parks. Very friendly and some of them biked. They did not like being forced to write a certain number of tickets per month to bikers. A bunch of them were cyclists.

    Now, it seems they are ALL gone.

    They have a whole new bunch of rangers and trucks and signs and equipment.

    Sign of the times but what can we do except for express outrage.
    Word bro... Last year I got pulled over on Skeggs for going 26 or 28 mph (I forgot what the number was). The Ranger that pulled me over and I started talking about bikes. He has a Bronson. I ended up getting a warning. I've only ridden Skeggs once since then. The only way to make change is to change the leadership and not by blaming the soldiers that do the general's bidding.

    There was a time when I was actually the Lead Ranger for Ridge to Rivers trail system in Boise. Our responsibilities included giving directions to the lost, giving out dog leashes and dog bags for those with dogs that did not have them, first aid, making trail recommendations, giving classes on bike repair, etc.... Giving people tickets wasn't one of our responsibilities thank goodness or I would've quit.

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    I always try to strike up a conversation with the rangers. Just trying to be friendly.

    But when they have a radar gun set up for a speed trap, that's a different story. I ask them why they're doing that and if they know how much they are citing these good citizens for. They will always say:

    "I do not know how much the fines are, you'll have to talk to the courts."

    To that I respond:

    "Just so you know, you are issuing $400+ tickets to folks just trying to enjoy the outdoors and get exercise."


    And then I camp up above them and warn riders.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    disgruntled stereotyping is his speciality. #sad
    When I see the old guys riding in the woods, I give them a salute!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BerndK View Post
    I LOVE Europe!
    In Germany there are no speed limits on trails (and on some Autobahn sections neither ;-)
    Because each local authority has to proof that a regulation does make sense.
    So a 70km/h limit around a critical highway ramp does make sense.
    In that sense a 15mph speed limit on like all trails of Freemont Older doesnīt make sense. There is sections where 15mph would be way too fast, impossible to ride, while there is others where you could easily do 25 without any safety risks associated.
    However, there is some code law in Germany around speed, which obviously donīt exist here: you have to be able to control your vehicle / bike at any time - in a way that you have to be able to stop in line of sight.
    Makes way more sense.
    And 400$ tickets for mountainbikers are so what far over the top - that makes me want to move back to good old Germany even more....
    This entire "sorry, itīs a business, so I rip you off - donīt take it personal" mentality SUCKS over here....it really does...
    Bernd
    This isn't a US thing, it's a California thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    This isn't a US thing, it's a California thing.
    To be more specific, it might be a Bay Area thing...

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    When I see the old guys riding in the woods, I give them a salute!
    I give em a HIGH FIVE. 75 years old on some of the awesome folks out there.

    Awesom Subaru commercial these days about a dude meeting his grandpa for surfing...
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    Quote Originally Posted by BerndK View Post
    I LOVE Europe!
    In Germany there are no speed limits on trails (and on some Autobahn sections neither ;-)
    Because each local authority has to proof that a regulation does make sense.
    So a 70km/h limit around a critical highway ramp does make sense.
    In that sense a 15mph speed limit on like all trails of Freemont Older doesnīt make sense. There is sections where 15mph would be way too fast, impossible to ride, while there is others where you could easily do 25 without any safety risks associated.
    However, there is some code law in Germany around speed, which obviously donīt exist here: you have to be able to control your vehicle / bike at any time - in a way that you have to be able to stop in line of sight.
    Makes way more sense.
    And 400$ tickets for mountainbikers are so what far over the top - that makes me want to move back to good old Germany even more....
    This entire "sorry, itīs a business, so I rip you off - donīt take it personal" mentality SUCKS over here....it really does...
    Bernd
    Agreed man. These laws were created 20+ years ago before the mountain bikers got organized. They also shut down a bunch of trails for no legitimate reason.

    Now that we are better organized, they can't get away with murder anymore but they will not change their archaic rules, even the No Night Riding one.

    There is NO PARITY in fines and no sense to their laws so I believe a lot of what they're doing is unjust and illegal.

    Midpen Lovers will continue to defend them and I think that is a true outrage to mountain bikers. They would change the fine to $1000 and 10mph speed limit if they thought they could get away with it today. But they can't.

    But they will do the absolute minimum to serve us, the majority user on most of their parks. Just enough to shut us up. Now they drive us away with paved trails and massive enforcement.

    Europe is definitely light years ahead in some issues.
    IPA will save America

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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    I give em a HIGH FIVE. 75 years old on some of the awesome folks out there.

    Awesom Subaru commercial these days about a dude meeting his grandpa for surfing...
    That's me in 30 years (with an old Subaru too)!!


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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Europe is definitely light years ahead in some issues.
    Which is ironic since many of the laws dealing with the freedom to roam have their basis in really, really old traditions.

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    I was threatened with a ticket by a ranger in skeggs a couple months ago. I was about 100 yards from the trailhead at the new parking lot when I spotted a rider coming uphill towards me. I stopped and moved to the side of the trail to let them pass when I see a ranger standing in the woods to my right.

    The ranger starts telling me that riding off trail is against such and such code and how he could give me a ticket. I was completely stunned. I'm on the trail, just on the side of it, not moving and waiting for uphill traffic to pass.

    I considered arguing with the guy that we both know what the rules about riding off trail are about -- people cutting corners, making go arounds (also: the resolution root), or making whole unauthorized trails, not yielding to uphill traffic, but he had the tone of a person who couldn't be reasoned with. So I just nodded and said yes sir, I will stay on the trail sir, and he let me go.

    Between the rangers and the idea that a steamroller is an appropriate tool for trailbuilding, I really regret voting for midpen's tax. Huge mistake.

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    But to give the rangers credit, people are mighty glad to see them when they are injured. I was talking to a ranger a few month ago and he said he found a guy unconscious on Resolution. Had to backboard and carry him all the way out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by james_howard View Post
    I was threatened with a ticket by a ranger in skeggs a couple months ago. I was about 100 yards from the trailhead at the new parking lot when I spotted a rider coming uphill towards me. I stopped and moved to the side of the trail to let them pass when I see a ranger standing in the woods to my right.

    The ranger starts telling me that riding off trail is against such and such code and how he could give me a ticket. I was completely stunned. I'm on the trail, just on the side of it, not moving and waiting for uphill traffic to pass.

    I considered arguing with the guy that we both know what the rules about riding off trail are about -- people cutting corners, making go arounds (also: the resolution root), or making whole unauthorized trails, not yielding to uphill traffic, but he had the tone of a person who couldn't be reasoned with. So I just nodded and said yes sir, I will stay on the trail sir, and he let me go.

    Between the rangers and the idea that a steamroller is an appropriate tool for trailbuilding, I really regret voting for midpen's tax. Huge mistake.
    Wow...not a chance in heck I could brush that off. I would have retorted if he knew what harassment was & I have a civil lawyer on retainer for de-bags just like him. Would have of been happy to escalate it from there.
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    Wow...not a chance in heck I could brush that off. I would have retorted if he knew what harassment was & I have a civil lawyer on retainer for de-bags just like him. Would have of been happy to escalate it from there.
    Let me know if you ever want to have another lawyer on retainer. This one speaks mountain bike...

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    But to give the rangers credit, people are mighty glad to see them when they are injured. I was talking to a ranger a few month ago and he said he found a guy unconscious on Resolution. Had to backboard and carry him all the way out.
    Way probably 2 days after the accident.
    I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not so sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BerndK View Post
    This entire "sorry, itīs a business, so I rip you off - donīt take it personal" mentality SUCKS over here....it really does...
    Bernd
    But at least we have real beer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayPee View Post
    Which is ironic since many of the laws dealing with the freedom to roam have their basis in really, really old traditions.
    For sure. Some advanced concepts occurred a couple thousand years ago.

    Hiking Switzerland and Italy, my hosts explained to me how old some of the trails we used were. Nobody was ever allowed to block them or own them.

    Can't own mother nature. And we haven't even learned that as in Martin's Beach Fiasco.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callender View Post
    But at least we have real beer.
    Better fosho. And just imagine our product in 10 years....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loll View Post
    There are a good amount of trails that i have dicovered over the years around south bay and lower peninsula that dont involve mid-pen 15mph rule.

    Dog, Arastra, Alum, Mission, demo, uc., Teresa...Key is city own park or eastbay. QSilver or JGrant both look to be SCC owned. Can't recall I saw ranger at either locations before. Anyone can confirm?

    If you are in Silicon valley, the choices are pretty good. Not top rated, but decent riding.

    At one point I thought mid-pen stuffs are best on dawn patrol. But a month ago at St. Joseph at barely sunrise, the guy ahead of me got ticketed.
    No, you're wrong. Rangers are everywhere and they are out to get you. Do not ride your bicycle.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by james_howard View Post
    I was threatened with a ticket by a ranger in skeggs a couple months ago. I was about 100 yards from the trailhead at the new parking lot when I spotted a rider coming uphill towards me. I stopped and moved to the side of the trail to let them pass when I see a ranger standing in the woods to my right.

    The ranger starts telling me that riding off trail is against such and such code and how he could give me a ticket. I was completely stunned. I'm on the trail, just on the side of it, not moving and waiting for uphill traffic to pass.

    I considered arguing with the guy that we both know what the rules about riding off trail are about -- people cutting corners, making go arounds (also: the resolution root), or making whole unauthorized trails, not yielding to uphill traffic, but he had the tone of a person who couldn't be reasoned with. So I just nodded and said yes sir, I will stay on the trail sir, and he let me go.

    Between the rangers and the idea that a steamroller is an appropriate tool for trailbuilding, I really regret voting for midpen's tax. Huge mistake.
    These new rangers seem to be clueless, combative and aggressive.

    Earlier this year, one started yelling at my kid and his high school friends for riding 'off-trail'... a widened part of the entry trail. Then she warned of 'speeding' because she could hear the speed from the sound of the tires. Then later, warned them all that she would issue them all "$400 tickets since they will not be able to exit the trail exactly 30 minutes after sunset"

    This was all relayed to me by the kids and it was a clear power-trip not exhibited towards older users.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    But to give the rangers credit, people are mighty glad to see them when they are injured. I was talking to a ranger a few month ago and he said he found a guy unconscious on Resolution. Had to backboard and carry him all the way out.
    These rangers don't really know how to deal with serious injury where the rider can't walk out. All they do is call for real help. Often over-reach and call for a helicopter.

    Not saying they don't help. But they'll probably ticket and lecture first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    These rangers don't really know how to deal with serious injury where the rider can't walk out. All they do is call for real help. Often over-reach and call for a helicopter.

    Not saying they don't help. But they'll probably ticket and lecture first.
    That guy probably got a careless and reckless ticket pinned to his chest as CalFire carried him out. A littering ticket for leaving his bike on the trail. Parking ticket and tow too!

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    That guy probably got a careless and reckless ticket pinned to his chest as CalFire carried him out. A littering ticket for leaving his bike on the trail. Parking ticket and tow too!
    LOLZ!

    I know they help locate the injured and help transport if needed. I wonder what kind of medical training they actually have aside from First Aid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loll View Post
    There are a good amount of trails that i have dicovered over the years around south bay and lower peninsula that dont involve mid-pen 15mph rule.


    Dog, Arastra, Alum, Mission, demo, uc., Teresa...Key is city own park or eastbay. QSilver or JGrant both look to be SCC owned. Can't recall I saw ranger at either locations before. Anyone can confirm?


    If you are in Silicon valley, the choices are pretty good. Not top rated, but decent riding.


    At one point I thought mid-pen stuffs are best on dawn patrol. But a month ago at St. Joseph at barely sunrise, the guy ahead of me got ticketed.


    I've seen rangers who asked me if I knew what the speed limit on the trails at quicksilver were, for biking. I just told him 15mph and rode away.

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    Next big thing: "Stealth" technology for bicycles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Better fosho. And just imagine our product in 10 years....
    you both know I cannot let this stand like this.
    Itīs on! So book your tickets to Germany and we do a 3 days breweries tour - and then you decide (as soon as you can walk again...)

    My wife recently got a ticket in Fremont Older because she pushed her bike uphill with the dog on leash - but no helmet.
    Over-regulation in the land of the free - strange ;-)
    Bernd

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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    These rangers don't really know how to deal with serious injury where the rider can't walk out. All they do is call for real help. Often over-reach and call for a helicopter.

    Not saying they don't help. But they'll probably ticket and lecture first.
    This guy was happy they were out there and happy to get that helicopter ride.


    Midpen on a ticketing rampage again-14352023_1334608196552124_624971791024205678_o.jpg
    I'm the problem....

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    Quote Originally Posted by flipnidaho View Post
    To be more specific, it might be a Bay Area thing...
    Yeah, not too up on specifics but I definitely Cali-centric,

    You don't need to go to Europe to get away from that sort of BS. There is nothing remotely similar going in the vast majority of the US and certainly not in New England where I live. In 25+ years of riding, I've never once seen anyone patrolling, and also never even heard a rumor of someone getting any sort of ticket. Maybe it's happened at the Boston Fells at one point or another, but speed limits and tickets are a non-issue for ~99.999% of the country. California seems to be quite a 'special' place with it's heavy-handed and intrusive governance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Yeah, not too up on specifics but I definitely Cali-centric,

    You don't need to go to Europe to get away from that sort of BS. There is nothing remotely similar going in the vast majority of the US and certainly not in New England where I live. In 25+ years of riding, I've never once seen anyone patrolling, and also never even heard a rumor of someone getting any sort of ticket. Maybe it's happened at the Boston Fells at one point or another, but speed limits and tickets are a non-issue for ~99.999% of the country. California seems to be quite a 'special' place with it's heavy-handed and intrusive governance.
    For sure man. I travel the country and the world and I’ve come to realize that Midpen treats bikers like cockroaches here.

    The sad part is the hills are absolutely gorgeous and remote. But they pave all the trails now and hunt us and issue $400 tickets at every opportunity. Get a sweet lecture too.

    I get depressed now during night riding season. ZERO allowed in these perfect hills.... cause they can’t issue speeding tickets in the dark
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    Brutal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    California seems to be quite a 'special' place with it's heavy-handed and intrusive governance.
    No need to go Dotard on this. It's only a problem in a few parts of the Bay Area. There is lots of great ranger-free riding within 30 minutes of the Midpen parks. The rest of the state, bigger than most of the East Coast, has "normal" riding rules and regulations. The one time I tried to ride in Connecticut we had to wear a certain amount of square inches of orange (it was hunting season) and there were people shooting within 100 yards of the trail. Other parks were closed because of hunting. No thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Callender View Post
    No need to go Dotard on this. It's only a problem in a few parts of the Bay Area. There is lots of great ranger-free riding within 30 minutes of the Midpen parks. The rest of the state, bigger than most of the East Coast, has "normal" riding rules and regulations. The one time I tried to ride in Connecticut we had to wear a certain amount of square inches of orange (it was hunting season) and there were people shooting within 100 yards of the trail. No thanks.
    Yes but everywhere else in the country except for CA and CT there are miles and miles of beautiful virgin singletrack minutes from your doorstep and no rangers patrolling it. We all need to move out of state in order to preserve our identities which revolves around shredding trails.

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    No hunting allowed in California? Hmmm...okay...

    Wearing orange in hunting season is what's called 'common sense'.
    Not sure I get why anyone would feel that it's an issue, unless they're severely lacking in it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKD View Post
    I was at Skeggs a couple years back and saw one of the rangers doing a speed trap on Timber View. So I stopped and very loudly warned other mtbers of her presence for 10 minutes. Got her to put the radar gun away and drive back up to the top of the preserve. Earned a nasty stare from the ranger as well.

    I'm always a little shocked when I run into hikers at Skeggs. It's so obviously a mountain bike place, and being one of the only legal fun places to ride for ~3 million people, it's not surprising that it gets busy. With the other MCOSD properties to the north and south (that allow hiking but limit or ban biking), the conflict would go away if they made Skeggs a bike-only or bike-priority place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    These new rangers seem to be clueless, combative and aggressive.

    Earlier this year, one started yelling at my kid and his high school friends for riding 'off-trail'... a widened part of the entry trail. Then she warned of 'speeding' because she could hear the speed from the sound of the tires. Then later, warned them all that she would issue them all "$400 tickets since they will not be able to exit the trail exactly 30 minutes after sunset"

    This was all relayed to me by the kids and it was a clear power-trip not exhibited towards older users.
    These new rangers must be the academy graduates that can't pass the psych eval when trying to hire on to a police or sheriff department. Mid Pen must get these types of leftovers. F'n wannabe chickenshit powertrippers...and that is my professional opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohmygato View Post
    Yes but everywhere else in the country except for CA and CT there are miles and miles of beautiful virgin singletrack minutes from your doorstep and no rangers patrolling it.
    That's actually how it is where I live.
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    ^ You're gonna hurt yourself if you keep trying to stretch your junk out on the ruler. If the trails are so awesome where you live, why do you feel compelled to post here so much?!

    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    No hunting allowed in California? Hmmm...okay...
    Sorry, no hunting in small parks close to major urban areas. We're big enough for everybody to spread out.
    Last edited by Callender; 10-27-2017 at 11:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Wearing orange in hunting season is what's called 'common sense'.
    Not sure I get why anyone would feel that it's an issue, unless they're severely lacking in it.
    Heh, I learned that lesson the hard way riding out at Peavine (came across a family doing some target practice across one of the jeep roads up above Mahogany Forest). I wear the brightest of colors when riding in places like that now...

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    We are viewed as cockroaches/pests in their hiking kingdom even though we are the primary user in many of their parks. The reason is each board member is a hiker only and no incumbent trail group has to share if they can get away with it. I feel they will do the absolute minimum with trail access to shut us up and are now trying to drive us away as a user group.

    I would really encourage everyone to talk to the rangers. Try and understand their motivations and help them gain insight on our concerns and difficulties.

    I know they're just pawns of the Midpen Board but they are the front lines. And all I've just gotten lip service from board members or PR department.

    Housing prices, traffic and congestion are not enough to drive me away from the Bay Area and my extended family. But Midpen WILL make me move from this place. Why must I feel like a criminal every time I ride my bike?

    If it wasn't for Santa Cruz, and if I had to ride by the letter of the Midpen Law (6 days a week), I would hate life. I found solace in road biking for a while but too many are getting mowed down from behind by drivers. That is what a new enthusiast rider faces, when just falling in love with mountain biking in the Bay Area.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    Where exactly? We should tabulate the most frequent spots.

    I usually see them in one of three places:
    - Coming down Fir standing in the clearing across from the start of Resolution
    - Coming down Timberview at the clearing where Giant Salamander starts
    - Coming down Springboard at the junction of the connector that goes to Lawrence Creek, where you pass through on your way to Blue Blossom.

    See three red dots:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Skeggs Ranger Danger.jpg 
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    I think I saw the ranger lady on Virginia Mill trail. She was waaaay deep in the park and I'm not sure how she got there. Didn't see a truck anywhere. It was odd that she was just standing there with an SLR. I don't think she had a radar gun.

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