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  1. #1
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    los gatos trail question

    Hi,

    What is that trail (fireroad looks like) that I see when I come back down to lexington reservoir from the Sierra Azul park? It's on the other side of hwy 17. Seems to be in the lost gatos/saratoga hills... I google mapped it and there is effectively a trail there but can't find the directions to the trail head... do you guys know what I am talking about ??

  2. #2
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    El Sereno

    It sounds like El Sereno Open Space Preserve. It is accessed either by climbing Overlook Drive to Sheldon Road ( the trail head is at the end of Sheldon) or by climbing Montevina Rd. It is a fire road downhill with plenty of berms and a few jumps. It can be fun on a tacky day and challenging on a dry one.. Either way you go you get a nice climb. The Montevina side is a little easier then Kennedy. The Sheldon side may be harder in some respects although the top is easier.

  3. #3
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    The Montevina road climb is tough, long, and gets very hot in the summer. I went through a bottle and a half of water making that climb a few weeks ago. Kennedy road is shady and not too long. Just be careful you don't pass the Sierra Azul trail head on Kennedy, or you will end up at Shannon road and have a healthy climb back up Kennedy to get back to the trail head.

    If you want to do the whole El Sereno/Around Lexington/Sierra Azul thing, I would definitely start by parking on Overlook, biking up to Sheldon, then up to Montevina (I think this is Aquinas Trail), down Montevina road, across Hwy 17, up Priest Rock Trail (Limekiln in closed but still passable), then over to Kennedy trail, down to Kennedy road and back through LG.

  4. #4
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    thanks... and one more question...

    The elSerino maps seems to indicate that there is only 6 miles of trail in that park...
    I guess to make it worth while (20-30 miles ride) I gotta do most of my riding in the Sierra Azul park... but does it connect to some other parks\open space preserves on the saragota side???

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by stef
    The elSerino maps seems to indicate that there is only 6 miles of trail in that park...
    I guess to make it worth while (20-30 miles ride) I gotta do most of my riding in the Sierra Azul park... but does it connect to some other parks\open space preserves on the saragota side???
    If you go to the top of El Sereno and go right (left if you are coming up from Montevina Road) it becomes Bohlman (sp?) Road in Saratoga, this road goes down and connects to Hwy 9. From there you can go lots of places, but you will be on roads for a while..

  6. #6
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    Not Anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by stef
    The elSerino maps seems to indicate that there is only 6 miles of trail in that park...
    I guess to make it worth while (20-30 miles ride) I gotta do most of my riding in the Sierra Azul park... but does it connect to some other parks\open space preserves on the saragota side???
    It could easily connect with Sanborn County Park but it doesn't anymore that I know of. Years ago I was able to ride up Black Rd. and connect to El Sereno. Now there are houses and private property where that fire road used to be.
    The best reason for climbing Montevina or El Sereno is to get a 2000 foot downhill. Probably at least 1200 of that is in the dirt.

  7. #7
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    Hey Stef...here's a good chance to learn the trail:

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  8. #8
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    Would love to do join you guys...

    but the only way I could make it is if we were starting at 6:00 in the morning as I usually work late... perhaps it has something to do with always getting in the office after 10:00am....

  9. #9
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    Cool-blue Rhythm El Sereno

    It's been a long time but I used to ride in the LG/Saratoga area quite often. I've ridden from downtown LG up to Overlook Rd. and a resident got a bit upset about our group of 3 riding on a private road. Does anybody know if Mid-Pen has gotten public access to El Sereno? It may have have been legal all along, and we just encountered a resident that tried to run us off. We were at the gate when the person encountered us, so it was a matter of riding less than 10 feet to enter the preserve. The person also said for us to come in via Montevina next time. I don't recall if I rode up Overlook Rd again after that.

  10. #10
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    ZOMBIE THREAD
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdrpiffle View Post
    ZOMBIE THREAD
    Right!?
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by terravelo View Post
    It's been a long time but I used to ride in the LG/Saratoga area quite often. I've ridden from downtown LG up to Overlook Rd. and a resident got a bit upset about our group of 3 riding on a private road. Does anybody know if Mid-Pen has gotten public access to El Sereno? It may have have been legal all along, and we just encountered a resident that tried to run us off. We were at the gate when the person encountered us, so it was a matter of riding less than 10 feet to enter the preserve. The person also said for us to come in via Montevina next time. I don't recall if I rode up Overlook Rd again after that.
    I've ridden up from downtown LG a number of times over the past two years and never been hassled.

  13. #13
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    I heard a rumor years ago that Mid-Pen was working on getting access to El Sereno via Overlook Rd.
    I'd like to ride up there again on a cyclo-x bike someday.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by terravelo View Post
    It's been a long time but I used to ride in the LG/Saratoga area quite often. I've ridden from downtown LG up to Overlook Rd. and a resident got a bit upset about our group of 3 riding on a private road. Does anybody know if Mid-Pen has gotten public access to El Sereno? It may have have been legal all along, and we just encountered a resident that tried to run us off. We were at the gate when the person encountered us, so it was a matter of riding less than 10 feet to enter the preserve. The person also said for us to come in via Montevina next time. I don't recall if I rode up Overlook Rd again after that.
    I dont know about midpen, but I believe that road may say "private" on it but it is open to bicyclists. If it was really private, an owner of the road could have called the police and then you could have been arrested and charged with trespass. I doubt that could happen, I guess a stop in at the LG police station and filing a complaint about the citizen would solve things. Get the person's name and tell them you are going to report their behavior to the police.
    "Reports of my death are greatly exaggerated" -- Mark Twain.

  15. #15
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    We lived just above Lexington reservoir on a private road a short while back. We were at the end of the road adjoining over a thousand acres of redwood forest. One of the documents we had to sign was giving right of way for the piece of road we owned to people wanting to get to the forest.

    Maybe there are similar provisions for Overlook and Sheldon?

  16. #16
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    Openspace.org - Your Preserves - El Sereno

    A permit is needed for Overlook. DT

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quasi View Post
    I dont know about midpen, but I believe that road may say "private" on it but it is open to bicyclists. If it was really private, an owner of the road could have called the police and then you could have been arrested and charged with trespass. I doubt that could happen, I guess a stop in at the LG police station and filing a complaint about the citizen would solve things. Get the person's name and tell them you are going to report their behavior to the police.
    Sheldon and overlook(single lane) are both in fact private roads. Sheldon residents have a license agreement with mid Penn so cyclists/hikers can use Sheldon to access the Monte Senero trail head during the hours the trail is open (1/2 hr before and after sunrise/sunset). This is all clearly marked by a sign at the base of Sheldon.

    I ride up there quite often, and have a buddy that lives there. I have never been hassled, in fact, residents have always been cool, but have heard of after hours night riders being hassled and ticketed for trespassing.

    Personally, I would be really pissed if the license agreement was revoked and I couldn't ride up there, so I try to be considerate.

  18. #18
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    Only for parking " a permit is required to park in this lot.". Just ride up from downtown LG. I haven't been hassled in the last 2 years.

  19. #19
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    Road or Trail?

    I think the original poster was talking about the ES02 entrance at the end of Sheldon Road (bottom of Aquinas trail). There is access via Sheldon Road but no parking.It is best to start and end in downtown Los Gatos if you have to drive here.

    There is also an Overlook Trail in El Sereno which may be causing some confusion. There is an entrance to Overlook Trail (ES06) farther up Overlook Road and, once again, no parking. The other end of the trail (ES05) is at the top of Canon Dr. There is a small parking lot there and this is where the parking permit is required. There is a non-county sign on the road that says no bicycles on Canon Drive, but I don't know if it is legal as it is not official and there must be some way for my "vehicle" to access the parking lot even if I don't park.

    I find that my knobby tires sometimes make some noise on the pavement and it can be hard to hear whatever it is that people might be trying to say. I am pretty sure they would be wishing me well and the return of a wave and a smile would be in order.
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  20. #20
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    A friend and I are going to ride up Overlook/Sheldon to the Aquinas Trail and up to the top at Bohlman Rd. Then go back down to the Aquinas trail or maybe Montevina back to LG. I built up a rigid 29er frame/fork into a 'gravel bike'. It has 700c x 35mm tires, and low gears. We rode Johansen Rd in Big Basin to Gazos Creek and on to Hwy1 on our road bikes, so El Sereno should be ok for a gravel bike. I'll do a post on the ride afterward.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by terravelo View Post
    A friend and I are going to ride up Overlook/Sheldon to the Aquinas Trail and up to the top at Bohlman Rd. Then go back down to the Aquinas trail or maybe Montevina back to LG. I built up a rigid 29er frame/fork into a 'gravel bike'. It has 700c x 35mm tires, and low gears. We rode Johansen Rd in Big Basin to Gazos Creek and on to Hwy1 on our road bikes, so El Sereno should be ok for a gravel bike. I'll do a post on the ride afterward.
    Be prepared for some MINDBLOWING fireroads. (the views are pretty nice though)
    I'm not sure how this works.

  22. #22
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    On Saturday 2 of us rode our gravel bikes from downtown LG to Overlook and on up Sheldon to the Aquinas Trail in the El Sereno Open Space. There's definitely some lung buster climbs riding up to the top (at Bohlman Rd, particularly since neither of us had a granny gear. It was incredibly foggy and cold with visability perhaps 25 feet, so we weren't able to enjoy the beautiful views from most any spot in the trail system. When we arrived at the Aqinas trailhead there was a sign declaring that Sheldon Rd was open to hikers and cyclists through a negotiation with the Sheldon Rd residents. The sign asked users to be respectful to the residents. I'd ride my gravel bike here again and ride down the Serenity Trail and back up to Bohlman. I also would like to ride the trail on Sherry Rd over to the reservoir off of Black Rd. I asked a Montevina Rd resident if it was ok to ride Sherry Rd and they replied "yes". We might try it from Black Rd however, that way if a Sherry Rd resident begins to harangue us we can turn around and head back to Black Rd. If anyone has ridden Sherry Rd leave a post of your experience. Thanks

  23. #23
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    If you rode all the trails in El Sereno O.S. plus Sherry Rd to the reservoir and down Black rd to Lexington Reservoir and rode St Joseph's Hill and down Jones Trail to LG, that could be a decent ride.
    Or you could include The Overgrown Trail on up to the top Of Sierra Azul and down Kennedy would also be good.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by terravelo View Post
    I asked a Montevina Rd resident if it was ok to ride Sherry Rd and they replied "yes". We might try it from Black Rd however, that way if a Sherry Rd resident begins to harangue us we can turn around and head back to Black Rd. If anyone has ridden Sherry Rd leave a post of your experience. Thanks
    The entire stretch from Montevina Road to within sight of Lake Ranch Reservoir is private property. I was told by a home owner on Sherrys Way to turn back but I blew him off and he must have called the Sheriff because two of them were waiting for me at the bottom near where the Y shape connector hits the John Nicholas trail that goes along the southern end of Lake Ranch. The sheriff says I violated California Penal Code 602L and it took a while for my wife to get there with my license ID. While we were waiting, a Sanborn County Park ranger came up and he told me that there are a dozen private properties that I crossed, including those on the paved part of the Sherrys Way road and on the PG&E trail. It's totally off limits to the public.

  25. #25
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    Dang! Misdemeanor... Did they throw the book at you or give you a warning? Thanks for the update and sorry to hear.

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    I'm not sure how this works.

  26. #26
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    It's interesting that this route has been getting heavy interest for 10 years now and nothing's changed. Looked on the assessor's map and if you count Sherrys Way there are indeed 12 private parcels of land. Access road crosses 23 property lines as it weaves around.

    Sanborn and El Sereno touch in a couple of places; I wonder why the County/Midpen haven't built a connector trail there? (Oh---that's right; Midpen's involved!)

    It's not just bikers causing property owners grief; I'm pretty sure dope growers have also used the PG&E road.
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  27. #27
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    Until you have determined the status of these private roads and your potential right to use them please refrain from posting maps and what appears to be illegal activity on the forum. We appreciate your eagerness to help the community, however. Thanks.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    This sounds correct. Your "castle" house is like 5 houses too far up the road.
    Thanks for helping me figure out the confusion. I think I now understand where I missed it. It's just after the smooth but very steep paved part that looks completely out of place with everything before and after it having come up from Ambrose where it was all dirt and ramshackle (trailers, old cars, all sorts of junkyards and debris and then, wham! The nicely paved road and beautiful home!).

    So, my "landmark" will be that when the road changes completely, pretty much at the second "nice" house, immediately start to look to the right for a path down to the PG&E service road.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    RE Strava heatmap just about nobody approaches this trail from the Ambrose end; they're all coming in from the top. (Bohlman Rd side)
    Thanks for explaining the enigma why Ambrose only had a short spur at Sanborn and another short spur at McGill, but nothing in between.

    Since I don't do GPS, can you explain how the Strava heat maps are created? Does everyone log into a web site and constantly upload their coordinates with a magic app? Or do they upload their tracks after the fact?

    The reason I ask is that those two short spurs at the bottom and top of Ambrose look like people "explored" and then turned back, which would support a theory that Strava is real time, but there's really no need to be real time since you can upload tracks after the fact so that's why I ask.

    How does Strava work?
    Is Strava real time, or after the fact?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    FWIW usually MTBR deletes threads like this when they get too descriptive of potentially illegal bike routes.
    Uh oh. It would be a shame to lose all this good data since anyone wanting to know more about these areas would be enlightened by all the good information we uncovered.

    Maybe I'll open a separate thread, one for each of these separate routes, to flesh out their facts. The fleshing would just be facts and pictures. Nothing more. Would they still delete a thread that just had facts and pictures of what "is"?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodrock View Post

    Maybe I'll open a separate thread, one for each of these separate routes, to flesh out their facts. The fleshing would just be facts and pictures. Nothing more. Would they still delete a thread that just had facts and pictures of what "is"?
    If it appears you are pushing legal rights and being a nuisance to land owners then yes, the threads will get deleted. Your efforts are more likely to harm the biking community than to help it.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCWages View Post
    If it appears you are pushing legal rights and being a nuisance to land owners then yes, the threads will get deleted. Your efforts are more likely to harm the biking community than to help it.
    And there you have it!

    In regards to Strava; the Stravalabs heatmaps have a lag time built in---I suspect it's weeks or months. The way the data gets to heatmaps is that it must be a ride/run submitted as "public" at "regular" Strava.

    "Regular" Strava is a treasure trove of information also; there some activities are indeed real time depending on the app/device the user is using. When I use Strava I upload the activity later and will class it as either public or private depending. I mostly keep the data as odometers for my bikes.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    And there you have it!
    LOL. I didn't realize we were skating on thin ice, so I will be extremely careful moving forward because a LOT of our combined effort was just blasted away, lost forever, including all your efforts at finding out the truth that the parcel maps and Greg Bringelson (SCC Trails Coordinator) clearly confirmed.

    It really hurts to lose all that effort, especially since we painstakingly confirmed a LOT of good information from the proposed trail plans, the property maps, the PG&E calls, the Sanborn Park calls, the Google Map directions, the trails-coordinator calls, the County Parks calls, the Google Maps, the Strava heatmaps, and from the photos - all of which we didn't know when we started.

    It's disappointing and demoralizing that, together, we ironed out the facts, and they were instantly obliterated just like the Ranch Lake Trail was obliterated by that mudslide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    In regards to Strava; the Stravalabs heatmaps have a lag time built in---I suspect it's weeks or months. The way the data gets to heatmaps is that it must be a ride/run submitted as "public" at "regular" Strava.
    Thank you for those details as I don't do GPS tracking but I'm a scientist and engineer so I'm completely familiar with GPX or KML/KMZ tracks.

    What I think you're saying is that there are two Straval levels, regular and something better than regular, where someone who is in the lower level of regular can manually submit their tracks (probably via an app but I am just guessing that they use a specific Strava app because that's how I'd design it if I were Strava).

    Those manually submitted tracks which are marked as public (probably by the person submitting them) show up on a combined heat map at some point well past the date of the actual track.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    "Regular" Strava is a treasure trove of information also; there some activities are indeed real time depending on the app/device the user is using. When I use Strava I upload the activity later and will class it as either public or private depending. I mostly keep the data as odometers for my bikes.
    Thank you again where I certainly appreciate your help and I understand that neither you nor I have any obligation to help with finding out the facts here. But it's disconcerting (to say the least) that when we did find out the facts over the course of a dozen posts and something like a few dozen photos, all those facts were obliterated in an instant, just as the Ranch Lake Trail was obliterated in an instant.

    Sigh.

    Being a well-educated person (and not just some kid), I still feel there is a place on this forum for our well-researched facts, so I hope the moderators allow us to post the facts, which we have already confirmed but which many people who haven't done the research wouldn't know.

    I do not think it hurts the cycling community to know the facts.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCWages View Post
    If it appears you are pushing legal rights and being a nuisance to land owners then yes, the threads will get deleted. Your efforts are more likely to harm the biking community than to help it.
    This is a forum which you are entrusted to moderate as you see fit, so I will not argue with you other than I will state that I feel facts don't hurt the cycling community but help the cycling community make better decisions.

    To that end, I state the following facts which had something like a half dozen phone calls to government officials, perhaps a dozen posts and likely twice as many photos and PDFs backing them up, which I only summarize below for the trails in Los Gatos and Saratoga which this thread had been discussing before the posts were deleted.

    1. The John Nicholas trail from Lake Ranch to Black Road is open to cyclists, equestrians, and hikers; but it was closed to all earlier this week due to a washout in one of the canyon curves

    2. The new John Nicholas trail from Skyline to Lake Ranch is open to cyclists, equestrians, and hikers.

    3. The Ambrose/McGill to Bohlman route except perhaps at the very bottom where the road weaves in and out of park property, is almost completely off limits to the public, with multiple gates, one of which, about in the middle, is permanently locked.

    4. The McGill to PG&E cutoff is in private property at the top where McGill and the cutoff meet. At the bottom at the large transmission line pole, it's park property, which is clearly marked by the park as open only to hikers and not to dogs, horses, or cyclists.

    5. The PG&E service road within the park has three signs showing that the section of the service road that is on park property is only open to hikers but not to dogs, horses, or cyclists. The park property boundary is clearly marked at a padlocked gate, where one side says entering park boundary while the other side says leaving park boundary.

    Since this park boundary is so critical for our discussion, we should note that on the same poles that have the park signs, there are also "no trespassing" and "keep out" signs on the side looking toward the private property which Greg Bringelson (SCC Trails Coordinator) confirmed are not in error.

    6. The PG&E service road outside the park is signed by a few dozen signs saying "private property" and "keep out" and "no trespassing" for the entire length that it travels through exactly one dozen private property parcels.

    7. The Sherry's Way road (i.e., the pavement at the top) is completely in private property, with two gates, one of which is permanently locked, and multiple "private road", "no trespassing", "keep out", and "private property" signs at both ends of this paved road.

    8. The Lake Ranch Trail from Sanborn Road to Lake Ranch is currently obliterated about half way from the road and the lake; therefore it is closed to the public (but is normally open to cyclists and hikers but not equestrians).

    Those are the facts we painstakingly determined in the course of investigating many leads as described previously in this thread.

    Facts such as these should not hurt the cycling community; they should help cyclists be informed responsible members of the overall community.

  33. #33
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    I mistakenly thought I could pm you some information and have you be discrete and you are anything but. Understanding that talk of heat maps, illegal trail usage etc........never mind. I think you are well meaning but you just don't understand the culture.
    I'm the problem....

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbrdan View Post
    I mistakenly thought I could pm you some information and have you be discrete and you are anything but. Understanding that talk of heat maps, illegal trail usage etc........never mind. I think you are well meaning but you just don't understand the culture.
    My mistake.
    It seems that you must be right because even the moderator deleted all the research, photos, maps, PDFs, URLs, etc., that we had posted to help get the questions answered.

    As you inferred, I must not understand how things work here, as I was just trying to figure out the facts involved.

    I'll try to summarize the lost facts, in the hopes that they are useful to others who haven't done all the research we've done.
    Last edited by woodrock; 01-16-2017 at 12:40 PM.

  35. #35
    middle ring single track
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    Don't feel bad for me, my contributions were maybe a max of a half hour of Internet searching; the subject matter about this area has all been covered before. It helps that I grew up in the Los Gatos area so I have familiarity/connections from long ago.

    You may recall that I posted links, not actual maps or photos. We can have a fairly in-depth discussion about access matters but discretion is important when identifying route specifics.

    Yes we can share via PM and that should have been a signal that confidentiality is a must. Now you know.
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  36. #36
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    I'll add that using screen grabs from sources like Google Earth, Strava and etc is usually a violation of their copyright policies. The fine print usually has the specifics; sometimes they will grant permission but one needs to ask first. If a source provides embedable links then usually that's a go-ahead.

    Of course maps and documents like from park departments are in the public domain so they're usually fair game for redistribution.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    I'll add that using screen grabs from sources like Google Earth, Strava and etc is usually a violation of their copyright policies. The fine print usually has the specifics; sometimes they will grant permission but one needs to ask first. If a source provides embedable links then usually that's a go-ahead.

    Of course maps and documents like from park departments are in the public domain so they're usually fair game for redistribution.
    What is a "copyright policy"?

    If you are trying to explain why a use might be a violation of Copyright Law, a laudable goal by the way, you could be even more helpful and try to explain why such a use wouldnt be protected under the principles of "fair use".
    "Reports of my death are greatly exaggerated" -- Mark Twain.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quasi View Post
    What is a "copyright policy"?

    If you are trying to explain why a use might be a violation of Copyright Law, a laudable goal by the way, you could be even more helpful and try to explain why such a use wouldnt be protected under the principles of "fair use".
    Since you seem to be well-versed why not you do it?

    In the meanwhile folks can read what Google has to say about their "fair use" policy here google.com/permissions/geoguidelines
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    Don't feel bad for me, my contributions were maybe a max of a half hour of Internet searching
    I'm surprised you uncovered that much in so little time as I had spent hours, as I'm a scientist and engineer, so I document everything I do to the level that my words stand for facts, and not hearsay.

    Wasn't it you who spoke to Greg Bringelson (SCC Trails Program Coordinator) for example? He confirmed what the signs said all along, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    the subject matter about this area has all been covered before.
    I'll search for those threads as this thread was about the affected Los Gatos Trails, but others could benefit from the information all of us unearthed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    It helps that I grew up in the Los Gatos area so I have familiarity/connections from long ago.
    I would love to know what the history of this area is, with respect to the trails before and after the park came into being, and the open space, and even those transmission lines which seem to date to around the sixties as far as I can tell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    You may recall that I posted links, not actual maps or photos.
    Well, I remember clicking on EVERYTHING that was suggested, as each piece of data solves the puzzle. I think it's pretty clear now what the factual status is, which is simply that, at the moment, there is only a single trail that is open to cyclists that touches Lake Ranch.

    1. From Lake Ranch to Skyline is open (AFAIK).
    2. From Lake Ranch to Sanborn Road is definitely obliterated by a massive landslide (so it's closed)
    3. From Lake Ranch to Black Road has been washed out (I'm told) & is also closed.
    4. From Lake Ranch to PG&E Service Road to McGill Road to Bohlman Road is permanently closed to cyclists, dogs, and equestrians within the park and recently closed to the public outside the park
    5. From Lake Ranch to PG&E Service Road to Sherry's Way to Montevina Road is permanently closed to cyclists, dogs, and equestrians within the park and permanently closed to the public outside the park

    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    We can have a fairly in-depth discussion about access matters but discretion is important when identifying route specifics.
    I think we had a decently in-depth discussion about access matters, so, I don't think there is any question whatsoever, at least not about any of the trails that touch Lake Ranch.

    There is currently only one viable option for the John Nicholas trail, which is the track from Skyline to Lake Ranch and back to Skyline. No other track is open to cyclists at the moment, although normally the track from Lake Ranch to Sanborn Road is open as is the track from Lake Ranch to Black Road.

    I suspect the Black Road access will be resolved quicker than will be the Sanborn Road access, simply due to the topography of the area (as I haven't seen the Black Road washout). Tomorrow I hope to ride there, so if I do, I'll snap some photos of the issue so that everyone can benefit from the effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    I'll add that using screen grabs from sources like Google Earth, Strava and etc is usually a violation of their copyright policies.
    If that's true, maybe that's why the mods removed all my screen grabs?
    Anyway, it doesn't really matter why the mods removed all that hard earned effort as it's gone, so we now have to start fresh to back up all that which we have found out over the past week.

    If screen grabs aren't allowed by the mods, I'm sure my own photos are allowed, so, here are some photos of interest to all with respect to the Los Gatos trails-access question.

    At the top of Bohlman Road and/or Montevina Road, the trails are marked available to cyclists, hikers, and equestrians, but not dogs.


    At the end of Sanborn Road at the Lake Ranch Trail trailhead, the signs show access to cyclists, hikers, equestrians, and dogs.


    At the junction of the John Nicholas Trail and the PG&E Service Road, the signs show access within the park to hikers, but not to cyclists, equestrians, or dogs.




    At the locked-gate junction of the Sanborn Park boundary with the PG&E Service Road, the signs show access within the park to hikers, but not to cyclists, equestrians, or dogs, and access denied to the public outside the park boundary.






    At the locked-gate junction of the PG&E Service Road and the Sherry's Way private road, the signs show access denied to the public.



    At the Sanborn Road entrance to Ambrose Road to McGill Road to Bohlman Road are signs that show no access to the public on the two dirt "roads" in the area.



    Near the junction of McGill Road and the PG&E Cutoff at the top near Bohlman Road, the signs show no access to cyclists or hikers without permission.



    Temporarily, the access from Lake Ranch to Black Road seems to be out "above the reservoir", apparently due to a washout in the earlier part of this week:


    Temporarily, the access from Lake Ranch to Sanborn Road seems to be out "below the reservoir", due to a huge landslide that occurred later in the week.

  40. #40
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    I am not now qualified, nor do I have time to research Intellectual Property law right now. I am an attorney, but in a very different area of law and I dont give advice in areas of law I am not familiar with. I know that such advice would be lacking. But I did learn enough in law school to know that a little knowledge can get you into a lot of trouble.

    It seems like half the people here in Silicon Valley think they are experts on all aspects of IP and it always rubs me the wrong way. After law school, before passing the bar, I worked at a patent firm just doing menial work. We made lots of copies (mountains of copies) which were used as exhibits attached to patent applications mailed to the PTO daily (this is before the internet). Some of these copies were from magazine articles or newspaper articles, or dissertations.... Anyway, you get my drift--this is a for-profit law firm using copyrighted materials without permission. And when I asked one of the many patent attorneys if this was allowed, he said it was under "fair use". There, you have all my experience with the concept of "fair use". Hope that helps, sorry I cant give you much more than an anecdote.
    "Reports of my death are greatly exaggerated" -- Mark Twain.

  41. #41
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    Mr. Woodrock. As has been previously mentioned, you've had a busy first week! I'm not sure what your goal is at this juncture, but you seem to be beating a dead horse to the point where dental records will be needed to identify it.

    How about a picture of your bike! I'm sure you could write some amazing ride reports if you focused more on pedaling and less on legality. You must ride the Gap and Stevens Canyon, right? Show us some new dirt!
    Last edited by dirtvert; 01-16-2017 at 10:37 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtvert View Post
    Mr. Woodrock. As has been previously mentioned, you've had a busy first week! I'm not sure what your goal is at this juncture, but you seem to be beating a dead horse to the point where dental records will be needed to identify it.
    Given your completely off topic questions, I have to wonder how old you are because you seem to not recognize the simple fact that it's not my first week of riding, which you equate to my first week of simply being on this web site.

    That you don't appear to comprehend the difference is astounding, so you must realize that I ponder your off-topic personal questions with some wonderment.

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtvert View Post
    How about a picture of your bike!
    I've already been asked where I vacation, and where I live, so, I guess I shouldn't be surprised to be asked by you for a photo of my bike. As I answered in one of the deleted articles, it's a Specialized Rock Hopper, which, just for you ... I stepped out of my comfort level of my own personal privacy ... to snap a photo of it hanging up in my garage next to my wife's ride.


    You should thank me, because, as a complementary added bonus, you now also have a photo of what my wife rides, although she rarely rides with me as I never follow a plan and therefore, I am strictly a solo rider.

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtvert View Post
    I'm sure you could write some amazing ride reports if you focused more on pedaling and less on legality. You must ride the Gap and Stevens Canyon, right? Show us some new dirt!
    What I find perplexing, as both a degreed engineer and scientist, is that you don't attack my facts ... but you attempt to attack my personal integrity. I find your personal questions disturbing, but I will not fall to your level (mainly because you have more experience and will eventually drag me into the dirt along with you).

    I assume you're just a young kid, so my advice for you is to stick to the facts of what I say, and not to try to attack my character. My character is not the issue here.

    The issue is simply Los Gatos Rides.

  43. #43
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    Thanks for the picture--it's interesting! But I meant a picture of it in action (minus the bird nest). It does tell us a LOT about you...

    I'm really just trying to help you fit in here. Posting ride reports (with an emphasis on fun, action, etc.) is part of that. Most (all?) of us here already know what's legal and what's not. Happy trails.

    Also, thanks for the compliment about my age. You made me blush...

    I'm sure that anyone that rides in that area that had questions regarding legality has figured it out in the FOUR YEARS that have passed since this thread last saw action. But your rigorous CSI work is to be commended.



    VV I don't count fireroad pictures that illustrate your obsession with closed trails--ad nauseum--as a ride report, but to each their own.
    Last edited by dirtvert; 01-16-2017 at 05:35 PM.
    Friends don't let friends ride e-"bikes" on dirt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtvert View Post
    Thanks for the picture--it's interesting! But I meant a picture of it in action.
    I can plainly infer from your implications that you continue to assail my character, instead of the facts of the trails, which was, and is, the topic in this thread.

    If you wish to open a separate thread purely to impugn my character, I can't stop you, but I will call you out for what you are attempting to do here, as your approach is patently childish and completely off topic to the question of "Los Gatos Trails".

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtvert View Post
    I'm really just trying to help you fit in here.
    Um. Yeah. Right.
    Quote Originally Posted by dirtvert View Post
    Posting ride reports (with an emphasis on fun, action, etc.) is part of that.
    Surprisingly, you seem to have completely missed my rather detailed "ride reports" on a variety of Los Gatos Trails in the past week (e.g., Los Gatos Creek, St Joseph's, Lexington, Ambrose, McGill, PG&E, Bohlman, Montevina, El Sereno, Aquinas, Sheldon, Juan Bautista de Anza, Lake Ranch, etc.).

    In fact, it was the explicitness of those ride reports where I was told that they were, indeed, far too explicit, for the comfort level of the mods of this forum, so some were, en masse, simply deleted.

    Yet, the fact is that just one of my "ride reports" was the very first post on this forum to warn other cyclists about the landslide earlier this week that obliterated the Lake Ranch Trail.

    Surely you can't ask for more than a first-hand account of the very first person known to be at a trail obliteration (the boulders were still moving downhill!) where an unsuspecting cyclist could easily be killed, and more likely, completely stranded on the wrong side of the mountain, as it were.



    I even fleshed out a thread by the venerable founder of this web site, fc himself, by standing at the head of the Los Gatos Creek to show exactly the moment when the overflow began earlier in the week because I was keeping tabs on the trail myself.




    In fact, I was keeping tabs on the trail myself, as you can see from this picture which I posted to that thread, showing the trail was still open above the reservoir, but the water was unusually close to flooding the trail.


    So, I guess in keeping with your apparent youthful lack of scope, you seem to have a complete and utter incomprehension of the detailed trip reports which I have been supplying in just the past week, so as to warn other cyclists of impending trail circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtvert View Post
    Most of us here already know what's legal and what's not. Happy trails.
    Your stated facts are completely at odds with the statements that were made in this thread about which rides on the Los Gatos Trails were legitimate.

    The question of legitimacy came up multiple times in this thread, long before I arrived, and some were answered correctly, while others were completely incorrect.

    Therefore, as seems to be continually the case with your errant posts above, the actual facts certainly trumpet your opinions so much that the actual facts belie virtually everything you say.
    Last edited by woodrock; 01-16-2017 at 02:30 PM.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodrock View Post
    Given your completely off topic questions, I have to wonder how old you are because you seem to not recognize the simple fact that it's not my first week of riding, which you equate to my first week of simply being on this web site.

    That you don't appear to comprehend the difference is astounding, so you must realize that I ponder your off-topic personal questions with some wonderment.


    I've already been asked where I vacation, and where I live, so, I guess I shouldn't be surprised to be asked by you for a photo of my bike. As I answered in one of the deleted articles, it's a Specialized Rock Hopper, which, just for you ... I stepped out of my comfort level of my own personal privacy ... to snap a photo of it hanging up in my garage next to my wife's ride.


    This picture raises so many questions....
    I'm the problem....

  46. #46
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    I'm pretty sure woodrock's science/engineering specialty is time travel and he entered his time coordinates wrong last week.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    I'm pretty sure woodrock's science/engineering specialty is ...
    I'm not sure about that but nonetheless, I'm with you on the copyright posts above, where that person saying you violated "fair use" certainly interprets US copyright law differently than any other reasonable and intelligent person likely would.

    Fair use, IMHO, easily applies completely to the things we posted, most of which were from government agencies, and the rest of which were annotated screenshots where no attempt was made to pawn them off as our own work nor to participate in the same business as those companies nor to sell those images for profit, etc..

    But I'm not a lawyer so in looking up fair use of Google Maps screenshots for posting to this forum, I find these basics:


    This quick research shows that courts evaluate fair use claims on a case-by-case basis, so all we can summarize accurately is that the key factors for fair use are:
    1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
    2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
    3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
    4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.


    Since this isn't the first time the fair-use question has come up, Google has a landing page for non-commercial use of screenshots written by their lawyers in street-view language that even the poster who claimed it was copyright infringement can (probably) understand.


    Skimming that article, it seems pretty much Google has two requirements:
    1. Don't hide the fact it's from Google, and,
    2. Don't break the Google Maps/Earth TOS


    Interestingly, Google says that the fact it's from Google is already "baked in" (yup, their words) if it's a screenshot; so the first requirement is met automatically.

    In addition, you're allowed to alter the screenshots as long as they wouldn't look significantly different if the original map were to be viewed online and compared (almost certainly meaning you're trying to avoid the baked-in attribution magic).

    Skimming the second requirement, which is Google's terms-of-service, it's clear that Google explicitly allows screenshots, annotated or otherwise for "public display online".

    So anyone who thinks that either of our displays of Google Maps/Earth screenshots are a violation of fair use probably has almost no concept of copyright law since any intelligent and reasonable person can easily determine that posting a few annotated screenshots here would most likely be considered well within fair use when observed by any normally reasonable and intelligent person.

    Here is a more detailed analysis on this very topic, by a non-Google source:


    As for the Strava Labs Maps, they're provided under both Mapbox and OSM agreements apparently. where their lawyers haven't done as good a job as Google has in outlining their thoughts on fair use of screenshots:




    Skimming those articles, any reasonable and intelligent person should be able to easily verify that Strava explicitly prohibits certain uses, none of which seem to apply to posting an annotated screenshot of a strava labs heat map.

  48. #48
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    I'm glad you can tolerate the humor regarding your bikes; there's a certain honor in riding "old school" that's sniffed at by those that can not be seen on a bike that's more than a year old. I've got several older bikes hanging in my garage too, including 3 Schwinns and a couple of Rockhoppers. (And a Hardrock and a Stumpjumper and a...)

    Actually I think the quasi-lawyer complainer was saying that I wasn't accounting for fair use in my original post on the copyright topic. I was merely suggesting that the rules be read (which you just reported on rather thoroughly) and folks can proceed at their own comfort level.

    By "baked-in" I'm not sure if they're saying they have an encrypted watermark (which I doubt) or just that if you do a full-frame grab (or just save to jpeg) you'll have all the necessary attribution showing across the bottom.. And it's not just "Google", it's the trademarks of the imagery suppliers that also need to be showing.

    Which brings up another matter which is that the miserly width MTBR allows for images does not allow the attribution to be clearly read so now we're back to square one.
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    I'm glad you can tolerate the humor regarding your bikes;
    Is that what you got from that?
    I'm the problem....

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtvert View Post
    I meant a picture of it in action (minus the bird nest).
    Whoosh.

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