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  1. #1
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    Leave No Trace... on social media

    A topic related to ones used here sometimes:
    How does 'social media' drive traffic of popular-thing-seekers to over-run an area. Often without caring about things like respect for trails or neighbors or the like?

    The Leave No Trace orgainzation just published some guidance.

    https://lnt.org/blog/new-social-media-guidance

    Leave No Trace isn't black or white, right or wrong. It's a framework for making good decisions about enjoying the outdoors responsibly, regardless of how one chooses to do so. If outdoor enthusiasts stop and think about the potential impacts and associated consequences of a particular action, it can go a long way towards ensuring protection of our shared outdoor spaces. To that end, we encourage outdoor enthusiasts to stop and think about their actions and the potential consequences of posting pictures, GPS data, detailed maps, etc. to social media. Furthermore, we urge people to think about both the protection and sustainability of the resource and the visitors who come after them.
    Does this thought affect how/what/where you post?

  2. #2
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    I've had people tell me 'if you don't post about it, it didn't happen'...which makes my life easier, since anyone who thinks that way is the last person I'd want knowing about the cool places that I don't post.

    Posting special places/secret spots on social media carte blanche is stupid. Social media isn't some 'internet experiment' anymore - we know that it can cause places to be overrun, open up trail disputes, and generally degrade the very reason the poster was likely stoked. Once one casts that 'secret spot' info out into the world at large - that's it. It's not a secret spot anymore.

    So many of us have learned about rad locales and secret trails and hole-in-the-wall places from people who trusted us with that info, and we've passed it along much the same. THAT is what makes places like that special - that someone trusted you with the knowledge of it, that you would treat it accordingly and pass that knowledge along in kind.

    I'm not saying that every trail and campsite and lookout needs to be a secret, or that there's no place for social media. I'm just saying...use jurisprudence.
    "When life gives you lemons...say f@%k it, and bail"

  3. #3
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    Ahh...sometimes I really miss the old skool social media (aka local knowledge) of knowing the guy who knew the guy who knew spot/place/trail/stash and trusted you with the info to pass along to other trusted souls. Especially when those places are getting loved to death and your local trails are growing amateur stutter bumps in every turn.


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  4. #4
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    LOL "old skool social media" Caveman A to Caveman B: Oog. Oog ugh!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmtb View Post
    Does this thought affect how/what/where you post?
    Absolutely; I'm almost always recording GPS when afield---I might make 10% of my trips public on Strava or whatever.

    About the same ratio for my photographs.

    Some reasons to censor the 90%:

    "Favorite fishing hole" (sometimes literally, read also "trail")
    Private property (but usually with permission)
    Sensitive archaeological site
    Exceeding the speed limit
    Closed area (but usually with permission)

    But the hell with this social media crap; there are far too many in this sport who don't give a damn about the first order of "Leave No Trace"; the "skid kids" and the "rainy day rutters"---not to mention the effect of rogue trail building in the first place.
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

    Windows 10, destroying humanity one upgrade at a time.

  6. #6
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    The old school social network assumes that you are the kind of person who has a lot of friends/acquaintances and ride when other people ride. If you are kind of shy, prefer to ride alone, ride when most other people aren't or don't have a regular 'hang out' with other riders then the old school method doesn't work very well. I much prefer the world of Trailforks and Strava, not because I want to compete with others for the fastest times, but because I want to discover new places to ride without having to be part of the in crowd.

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  7. #7
    fc
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    Leave No Trace giving Social Media advice. They seem like opposite ends of the spectrum. Their audience is so different so target is not reached.

    It is a very interesting and difficult time for sure. It is good AND bad. The old guard of any outdoor sport will be in much pain with all these new users. The general population and kids will be stoked to get out.

    The two shining examples for me are:

    Mission Peak in Fremont - a 2000 foot, 3 mile climb. Used to be hundreds would go there on a weekend but now, since the dawn of Instagram and #missionpeak, Thousands go every weekend.

    Leave No Trace... on social media-wkkcx5cw9ozojcm5euoe.2.jpg



    Arches National Park in Moab - Packed now to the gills as you find your sunrise solitude.

    Leave No Trace... on social media-arches_20.jpg


    On the one hand, it sucks these places are getting crowded. On the other, it's awesome folks, young and old are getting out and experiencing these wonders.

    This is going to happen over and over with many destinations.

    Painful for traditionalists but Board of Tourism folks towns looking for an economy will like it.
    IPA will save America

  8. #8
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    The funny thing about Arches and Canyonlands is that if youíre willing to get off the beaten path and endure even a mild amount of discomfort, you wonít see a soul. For better or worse, the average American just isnít going to walk 10 miles one way to see something.

    Same with other NPs. My wifeís cousin (my best friend) is the manager of a guide service in one of the parks that has seen a massive increase in tourists. Whenever we visit, we go see ďthe goodsĒ. Things you have to really work to get to. The stuff thatís not a 20min walk up a might-as-well-be-paved climb like the hike up to Angelís Landing in Zion.


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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Whenever we visit, we go see ďthe goodsĒ. Things you have to really work to get to. The stuff thatís not a 20min walk up a might-as-well-be-paved climb like the hike up to Angelís Landing in Zion.
    Did Zion last year and it was crazy. Funny thing is you don't even really have to work that hard to avoid 99.999% of the people. Trudge up the Angel's landing path with everyone else, turn left at the top and it's literally just you and another 10+ miles of a great trail all to yourself!

  10. #10
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    Leave No Trace... on social media

    Quote Originally Posted by nilswalk View Post
    Did Zion last year and it was crazy. Funny thing is you don't even really have to work that hard to avoid 99.999% of the people. Trudge up the Angel's landing path with everyone else, turn left at the top and it's literally just you and another 10+ miles of a great trail all to yourself!
    Yep. It keeps going all the way to the west entrance. Called the Zion Traverse. Almost 50 miles one way. And, plenty of offshoots along the way to see and explore.

    But, itís hard work, and mildly uncomfortable at times. And, unlike AL, no one will know what youíre talking about on IG, because so few people have been there.

    Iíd never do this because I like sitting down and sleeping on my back, but there are plenty of areas in the NP system where you could walk naked, for days, without fear of an awkward situation. The Maze District, for example.


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  11. #11
    Hella Olde
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    Caw! Caw!

  12. #12
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    Due to an overwhelming number of residential developments happening in rural parts, many are left with a lack of 'dirt'. If rogue builders wanna build, build. That person will understand there are consequences. What those consequences are - YTBD. Could be good or bad. Now before you go on the path of 'well it sets a bad precedent...' STOP.

    As for sensitive places, some people DO NOT GIVE A FACK. Some lack impulse and feel the need to brag where they were. Then you got dudes on your nuts asking not to make public (been through it on both sides). Fight Club mentality does have a place.

    I have a lot of respect for the guys who are out doing the good deed maintaining trails, whether public or not. There is such a lack of trail work its obscene. Too many sanctioned trails with govt oversight rarely are maintained.

    Know the rules, if you break them here and there, just be nice and apologize. Just try to resist the urge to break them and you'll be better off.

    I try to help trail org's (and gnomes) as much as possible. I donate monthly to four org's simply because I want trails, and I want them cleared. It's a small effort on my part for a much larger group effort.

    It goes for people here asking about "that place". They probably just don't know. Be nice and move on. Enough being a complete f-wad and help educate.

    BTW - IS HOLE IN THE GROUND OPEN?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Mission Peak in Fremont - a 2000 foot, 3 mile climb. Used to be hundreds would go there on a weekend but now, since the dawn of Instagram and #missionpeak, Thousands go every weekend.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Mission Peak has unfortunately become a clusterfuck of entitled clueless etiquette-lacking trail zombies who donít understand the basic laws of trail right of way nor do their small minds contain any common sense.
    one by nine works just fine but single speed is all ya need
    BTW, itís called ďsarcasmĒ; youíre soaking in it!

  14. #14
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopold Porkstacker View Post
    Mission Peak has unfortunately become a cluster**** of entitled clueless etiquette-lacking trail zombies who donít understand the basic laws of trail right of way nor do their small minds contain any common sense.
    Hey now.

    I'm happy for folks that get out there. Folks from all walks of life for sure!!

    But I see a lot of teens and grandparents that are getting after it. Families. And those folks are better off than on their couch, the mall or even the gym.

    I talk to many folks when I'm out there and most are friendly and stoked and in pain. Most hikers are on the Stanford side trail anyway... which is pretty useless for riding.
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  15. #15
    Log off and go ride!
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    My rule for determining if I want to ride a new trail or not.

    I do an internet search for trail reports, GPS tracks, and writeups. If I find none it is a go. If I find a lot I look for another trail.
    So many trails... so little time...

  16. #16
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    I've posted some new trails on here, not on facebook etc, to attempt to get more mountain bikers on these trails. For instance,

    A new trail in a new monument

    I'm hoping that some of us will ride them and get us a little more pull with BLM Ukiah.
    My mantra: Hike, Bike, Paddle, Ski

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by telemike View Post
    I've posted some new trails on here, not on facebook etc, to attempt to get more mountain bikers on these trails. For instance,

    A new trail in a new monument

    I'm hoping that some of us will ride them and get us a little more pull with BLM Ukiah.

    I agree with Telemike that the social media venue matters; i.e. posting on MTBR vs. Facebook (which I don't have).

    I think that the world has gotten too crowded to try and limit the knowledge of great places to visit. First, the knowledge will get out no matter what. Second, I think we are shooting ourselves in the foot if we don't help people appreciate the outdoors, as appreciation for the outdoors will affect lifestyles, voting, etc. Third, the more options that people know about, the more the load is spread out.

    That said, I would rather see mountain bikers get to a new area first, so that mountain biking is an established use of a trail system when the popularity grows and new oversight is introduced.

    I'm always grateful for the trail knowledge I find on MTBR, and I try to pass it on to those I think will use it responsibly. But I also think it's a losing battle to keep the knowledge from getting out at all.

  18. #18
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    The problem isn't social media (man, I hate that term). As with most things, the problem is too many people. And the fact that a lot of people just plain suck. Only takes a few to ruin it for everyone else.

  19. #19
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by California_Dave View Post
    I agree with Telemike that the social media venue matters; i.e. posting on MTBR vs. Facebook (which I don't have).

    I think that the world has gotten too crowded to try and limit the knowledge of great places to visit. First, the knowledge will get out no matter what. Second, I think we are shooting ourselves in the foot if we don't help people appreciate the outdoors, as appreciation for the outdoors will affect lifestyles, voting, etc. Third, the more options that people know about, the more the load is spread out.

    That said, I would rather see mountain bikers get to a new area first, so that mountain biking is an established use of a trail system when the popularity grows and new oversight is introduced.

    I'm always grateful for the trail knowledge I find on MTBR, and I try to pass it on to those I think will use it responsibly. But I also think it's a losing battle to keep the knowledge from getting out at all.
    That's very good insight man. Mountain bikers are great sheperds of nature and access.

    And we're kind of on the fringe of the 'leave no trace' movement. Hardcore hikers may frown at us for not walking in three days to get to a secret, desolate spot. So it's good to be open minded.

    I know if it wasn't for biking, I would still be driving exclusively to the mountains and choice spots. I'd be tethered a mile to the car.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurtssogood View Post
    The problem isn't social media (man, I hate that term). As with most things, the problem is too many people. And the fact that a lot of people just plain suck. Only takes a few to ruin it for everyone else.
    Iíd amend that to:

    Too many people with too much/too easy access to things.

    Edward Abbey got it right: Pave it and they will come.


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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by dchester View Post
    Due to an overwhelming number of residential developments happening in rural parts, many are left with a lack of 'dirt'. If rogue builders wanna build, build. That person will understand there are consequences. What those consequences are - YTBD. Could be good or bad. Now before you go on the path of 'well it sets a bad precedent...' STOP.

    As for sensitive places, some people DO NOT GIVE A FACK. Some lack impulse and feel the need to brag where they were. Then you got dudes on your nuts asking not to make public (been through it on both sides). Fight Club mentality does have a place.

    I have a lot of respect for the guys who are out doing the good deed maintaining trails, whether public or not. There is such a lack of trail work its obscene. Too many sanctioned trails with govt oversight rarely are maintained.

    Know the rules, if you break them here and there, just be nice and apologize. Just try to resist the urge to break them and you'll be better off.

    I try to help trail org's (and gnomes) as much as possible. I donate monthly to four org's simply because I want trails, and I want them cleared. It's a small effort on my part for a much larger group effort.

    It goes for people here asking about "that place". They probably just don't know. Be nice and move on. Enough being a complete f-wad and help educate.

    BTW - IS HOLE IN THE GROUND OPEN?
    Ha ! Funny you should ask. I just rode up to Andesite ridge as a out and back 2 days ago after work as I didnít have time for the full on adventure I know one can have getting around the North side of Buzzards Roost this time of year so I can only say itís open as a out n back. Anyone one else give the the loop a go ?

  22. #22
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    It's not just 'more people'. The Leave No Trace idea started at a point when most people were trashing the environment when camping/hiking/etc. Then the LNT idea came around, along with suggestions on how not to do that. Usage *increased* in many places, but damage *decreased*.

    The 'internet' has 'paved' places/access. Places like Mission Peak have a freeway of information leading you to it. (Thanks Al Gore). And the 'other side' might be largely empty.

    What I think is missing is 'apprenticeship'. In the 'old days' when you had to know people, or read books, the people would take you places and teach you things while doing it. Or the book would have paragraphs on behavior mixed in with the text.

    In the 'new days', some company selling stuff posts a shiny picture of selfie peak, then 12 more 'influencers' do it, then someone posts a map online with GPS points and a map and 1000000 clueless people follow.

    More people out there is a good thing. But clueless people trampling fragile things is bad. Thus the suggestions to think about impacts.

  23. #23
    fc
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    A very similar issue crisis occured with books and guide books.

    This blue book series in Hawaii (started ~15 years ago) brought a crush of tourists in super-secret spots. Some locals were very distressed. Readers of the book loved it.

    For me personally, we used it and had an absolutely amazing time each time we visited a new island there for the first time.

    Tough issue for sure. Private property, legal/illegal, laws, etiquette are all issues with sharing info. The blue book walked the line quite a bit.Leave No Trace... on social media-71-csahddsl.jpg
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Leave No Trace giving Social Media advice. They seem like opposite ends of the spectrum. Their audience is so different so target is not reached.

    It is a very interesting and difficult time for sure. It is good AND bad. The old guard of any outdoor sport will be in much pain with all these new users. The general population and kids will be stoked to get out.

    The two shining examples for me are:

    Mission Peak in Fremont - a 2000 foot, 3 mile climb. Used to be hundreds would go there on a weekend but now, since the dawn of Instagram and #missionpeak, Thousands go every weekend.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	wkkcx5cw9ozojcm5euoe.2.jpg 
Views:	91 
Size:	63.3 KB 
ID:	1203514



    Arches National Park in Moab - Packed now to the gills as you find your sunrise solitude.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Arches_20.jpg 
Views:	60 
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ID:	1203515


    On the one hand, it sucks these places are getting crowded. On the other, it's awesome folks, young and old are getting out and experiencing these wonders.

    This is going to happen over and over with many destinations.

    Painful for traditionalists but Board of Tourism folks towns looking for an economy will like it.
    Good grief, is that a typical Sat/Sun at Mission Peak? People stand in line (I guess they're at least civil) just for the "glory shot" to post online? IMHO that is just plain silly, is it that people are doing things just to post and prove to others they did it? I find myself taking less and less pics, my mind is still sharp and I like drifting back in my memory to cool sights, scenes and places.

    So be it to each their own, but I'm an odd ghost on the web, but that didn't stop me from listening to my instincts about "most" people when I bought f-book at $23/share and twitter-dumn at $15.

    I used to BMX bike up to there when I was a kid in the Hayward Hills, not often, but there were few people there, but the Bay Area was different back then you still regularly saw people with goats, chickens, peacocks and all sorts of animals in the back yards.

  25. #25
    sbd
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    This is a real thing. I used to post fishing pics at various spots on the web. No info on where it was. Uber dorks accessed the location by hacking the properties in the pics...wtf. Favorite spot ruined. Never again


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  26. #26
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    I love working weekends and every holiday.
    My two days off are midweek - which means everywhere I go, there are no people...

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jibmaster View Post
    I love working weekends and every holiday.
    My two days off are midweek - which means everywhere I go, there are no people...
    It's the best. I get a Wed-thurs friday off every other week. Tahoe, camping, riding, golfing, snowboarding are all way more enjoyable without anyone around.

    I took my dog on a 5 mile hike the other day on Tam, did not see another person the whole time.
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by telemike View Post
    I've posted some new trails on here, not on facebook etc, to attempt to get more mountain bikers on these trails. For instance,

    A new trail in a new monument

    I'm hoping that some of us will ride them and get us a little more pull with BLM Ukiah.
    How are these trails in the summer? My family has a house in Lucerne and I've always wanted some nearish trails to ride when up there visiting. How much single track in the area?


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