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  1. #1
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    Large Group Incident - Fairfax

    I was riding up out of Deer Park in Fairfax late Saturday morning with 2 friends just a bit behind me. Deer Park fire road typically has fairly regular traffic on sunny weekends, bikes, equestrians, hikers, many with kids, dogs etc. A large group of riders past me going downhill at a pretty good clip. Many were wearing BTCEB jerseys. Mostly single file, many called out (loudly) as they passed. I thought they were going kinda quick for a high traffic area with many blind turns. But I let it go as I saw no one else heading up.

    I stopped at 5 corners and waited for my friends. They took awhile to arrive. When they did, I discovered that my buddy Ed had been hit head on by the last rider in the BTCEB group. They banged helmets & Ed was knocked off the (wide) fire road, about 15' down a very steep embankment. He sustained an impact to his head, and had a laceration on his chin and a larger one on his wrist. The rider who hit him was on the outside of the trail (wrong side for descent). He narrowly missed the woman who was with us, then connected with Ed -an experienced rider who was on the right side of the road. The other rider did help Ed up the embankment & apologized. As I didn't witness the incident, I will allow that the rider who hit Ed MIGHT not have been with the BTCEB group, but I suspect he was. Don't know if he was wearing BTCEB kit.

    We encountered another large group of BTCEB riders at 5 corners and told them about the incident. I suggested that the ride leader should have been more responsible for keeping a large group in control on a high traffic fire road. Not easy to stop a large group of riders if something shows up around a blind turn. Also at 5 corners, we saw another friend with his 6 year old son on a ride. They had come up the same way we had. If that last rider from the BTCEB group had hit the 6 year old -or an equestrian, older hiker whatever, it could have been a serious crash. My buddy felt the effects of the head knock all the way up Tam. Even without crashes, a large group moving at speed, calling out loudly, is not going to win over any new bike advocates.

    Want to enjoy a nice frisky group ride? How about Pine Mtn., Tamarancho, or other more remote areas? The BTCEB group had some pretty experienced looking ride leaders. I'll bet they all put in plenty of time for bike advocacy, trail work, etc. But let's not have avoidable crashes, or high speed posses near popular trailheads. I ride with larger groups once in awhile, and have seen how easy it is to leave a wake of pissed off trail users. Sometimes I understand why bikes aren't very popular with non riders. Let's not give the haters any more ammo, OK?
    I like to bike.

  2. #2
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    That sucks. Getting knocked down is not cool, and being reckless is definitely not cool.

    Send a PM to Berkeley Mike, who is the current BTCEB president. They had a ride @ Mt. Tam yesterday, a public group ride. It may or may not have been a rider in the group, or a random following folks. Either way, the ride leaders should have made the rules clear. It is hard to organize and manage a large group ride, and many times information, such as expected etiquette, is just assumed. I've been on many group rides, and etiquette is never stated explicitly (only been with BTCEB a couple of times). On some rides, the ride leader may slow and others in the group will blow pass and sometimes race even if the ride leader says no racing allowed.

  3. #3
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    I tend to feel uncomfortable out on the trail with really big groups. The situation seems to make the bovine instinct kick in.
    Last edited by intheways; 02-10-2013 at 01:02 PM.
    "Paved roads...just another example of needless government spending"—paraphrased from rhino_adv

  4. #4
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    yeah.....I think large group rides are a detriment to MTB'ing. On popular trails nothing good comes out of groups of 10 or more riders whizzing by at speed! But, I guess being in the Bay area this is something out of our control. If you have to ride in a large group then the leader or ride organizer should make it very clear before hand about riding single file and slowing down when coming upon other trail users.

    Ahhhh....strava comes to mind!

    I ride solo most of the time although today we had four.
    Sorrel Seeker !!

  5. #5
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    Another reason why fire roads should be mostly hiker-only and singletrack should be for bikes. On most singletrack, you just can't attain anywhere near the same speeds as you can on fire road. Singletrack is much safer for all parties concerned, contrary to the hyperbole of hikers.

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    one good thing about working weekends - I only ride on weekdays and there is usually no one out there.. The lower watershed trails are absolutely ridiculous on nice weekends, surprised accidents dont happen more.

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    Re: Large Group Incident - Fairfax

    Quote Originally Posted by Czar Chasm View Post
    Another reason why fire roads should be mostly hiker-only and singletrack should be for bikes. On most singletrack, you just can't attain anywhere near the same speeds as you can on fire road. Singletrack is much safer for all parties concerned, contrary to the hyperbole of hikers.
    I gotta respectfully disagree with you there, once folks get familiar with a tight flowy singletrack, some minority will definitely push the limits and ride it completely pinned, around blind corners, without calling out, on busy weekends.

    There is an enormous difference between going at a speed where you can safely stop at the next turn, and, going at a speed where you won't crash on the next turn.
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  8. #8
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    As a former hiker, single track often gives me nowhere to safely "dive for cover" to avoid the speeding bike. Whereas a fireroad atleast gives me some distance without choosing the deep ravine or poison oak covered hillside.

  9. #9
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    9 hours. Nobody from over on the other side of the bay has chimed in. Hmm....
    Wait,who did he tell you that?....

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMac47 View Post
    9 hours. Nobody from over on the other side of the bay has chimed in. Hmm....
    No Shite huh Jmac?
    Some of those BTCEB'ers were helping us with the Flow Trail and I hope it was none of them.
    A pristine bike free of dirt, scratches, and wear marks makes me sort of sad

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  11. #11
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    Deer Park Incident

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfaxian View Post
    I was riding up out of Deer Park in Fairfax late Saturday morning with 2 friends just a bit behind me. OK?
    Fairfaxian, thank you for publishing this on MTBR. I think it important that such events are shared with the mtb community as they have deep meaning for us all.

    I will address this shortly.
    I don't rattle.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMac47 View Post
    9 hours. Nobody from over on the other side of the bay has chimed in. Hmm....
    We are all mountain bikers. Lets learn from this one.

    Need not worry where anyone is from. If you are on a bike you are my bro. Bottom line.

  13. #13
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    Short Version:
    I found out about this after the fact and dug into it. The rider at issue felt badly; stupid really, but I don't believe it is as simple as some might want to think. I'd like to make contact with the person who was injured.

    Long Version (You have been warned):

    As a leader of NorCal Teams, YMCA classes, other schools groups, and now of the BTCEB, this is definitely not the "phone call" you ever want to get. Going in, my ride leaders and I are well aware of the variables and circumstances we engage when we take on the mission of group riding. The mix of these elements build a certain synergy, a shared jones, which bind riders together and builds community vital to the success of our sport. New places, new knowledge, new friends, join skilled, knowledgeable riders, and old friends; it's not rocket science.

    Each ride at each venue is pretty carefully planned. We tap into our rider-resources for local knowledge and follow up with numerous pre-rides by principal leaders to evaluate for a route’s utility for the broad variety of skill groups and whether a venue is appropriate for a group which can number from 40-80 riders.

    Gathering on the morning of the ride is an exciting hi-energy time. New guests and long-time attendees mix and prepare. Much is done, though it looks informal, to engage everyone, check-out faces, attitudes, bikes, and build a sense of the group. There is tons of chatter. Waivers are signed, welcome is expressed, and a helping hand lent where needed.

    A critical part of the start of the event comes from me to form the group and it’s intent. Hello, welcome, we are about creating smart riders and advocating, we support....yatta-yatta-yatta... I call it the Kool-Aid.

    If a park has a certain style, such as Rockville, I might comment on how we will approach it for safety, encouraging small groups and patience. In Wildcat Canyon a very busy trailhead and a steep paved downhill at the end are described and all are cautioned to take great care in these areas and not speed. At Chabot the proximity of stables, at Joaquin Miller the tightness of trails and numerous walkers...all these are revealed in advance for our consideration. One of the last things I said in my welcome/intro/ride formatting was at Deer Park was, ”this is Saturday and we share the trail with many people and we need to be considerate.” There is more but I think my point is made.

    Our guests numbered 55 which split into fast and slow groups of 14-18 each and a middle group of around 28 which can hold a broad range of riders. Of the middle group 20 were riders with whom I am very familiar, including 2 unicyclists. I have come to value these repeat attendees as assets; they know how we roll, what we expect, and their value for stabilizing things. The remainder are either new to us or occasional attendees. I foresaw no problems.

    A bunch like this “B” group tends to spread out due to terrain and ability. I rode with the group toward the front and had 5 other highly-experienced ride leaders mixed from head-to-tail in the procession. Each of them tend to stay with the consequent subgroups; an organic dynamic we have come to appreciate and support. Climb-climb, climb. Wait. Climb more. Wait. It works. On the way down we wait at junctions and on that day ultimately split up to small groups to return at each groups own pace.

    Fast forward to ride’s end. I get back, change clothes and watch riders return to the tables with the usual grins. One of the lady goddess riders comes to me: “Michael, I think we need to talk to one of the guys about his riding; did you hear about the crash?” I took a long draw from a Racer 5; like I said, the phone call... What I find out is that one of our guests collided with another rider, knocking them down an embankment.

    This guest, one I had met once last month at Rockville who took time to support many through the technical stuff there, had a pretty good abrasion on his cheekbone just below his eye. FWIW, he was taking pictures of our descent of Rocky Ridge. After everyone passed he hopped on his bike and immediately fell left down the hillside; just about as stupid as the obligatory spd crash but bringing new meaning to the word “rocky” in Rocky Ridge and causing the abrasion. The effect of such a thing was not good. I’ve seen this before; a need to reclaim one’s mojo with single-minded determination or simply a fuzzy grip on context while relying on remnant skills to get back to the car. His subsequent descent in the 5 Corners area showed terrible judgment or awareness. The consequences of this were physical insults to fellow riders.

    As I could not locate the guy he hit my concern turned to our guest. What I saw was post-crash trauma in his eyes; trying to look relaxed but not pulling it off. I also saw a sheepish self-annoyance, bewilderment, and embarrassment. We talked a bit, not so much about the event but of his condition. I checked with him 2 more times before he left. I felt bad for him. When I was responsible for NorCal kids my role was different, more parental. Yet I guess that has not disappeared: I still worry.

    While most of us were around the tables, drinking beers, juices and munching, I got everyone’s attention. Starting with thank yous to the ride leaders and locals who lent their expertise, I spoke in general terms about our vital responsibility to be safe, to be aware of the horse-smelling-the-barn effect as we get near the end of the ride and the effects of fatigue or injury on judgment, the last-ski-run-of-the-day effect. I felt there was no need to point the guy out but an object lesson for us all was to be had.

    There are a couple of points to make here, not excuses, but a way of understanding and appreciating the value of group rides. In the last 5 years the BTCEB has aggressively developed and promoted its Gala Ride program. In the last 2 years we have developed the Ride Like a Girl program. 60 Gala rides averaging 50 riders per session for 3 hours each is 9000 rider hours. Toss in 1000 Girl-hours and that is 10,000 rider hours. This is the very first incident of this kind we have ever had. Ever.

    In my 10 seasons with the El Cerrito and Albany East Bay NorCal Teams (10 seasons x 80 rides/year x 3 hrs/ride, 20 riders = 48,000 rider hours) we had no such incidents. As a reference point for the rest of us an active rider at 20 hours of riding per week does about 1000 rider hours per year. Think of you and 9 other riders or 47 other riders; how often do regrettable vents like these happen? I collided bars with a lady as she descended at China Camp in 1991. No fall but still.

    I think it is fair to say that this is an extremely rare event and would suggest that it is hardly a function of group riding. In addition I don’t believe that there is another organization anywhere who manages the group riding event as well as the BTCEB given the broad range of riders we embrace and the variety of locations and conditions. Please keep in mind that I say this not as a defense; I would have said this last Friday, too. In fact I have, many times.

    It is also important to remember that there is a definite impact of a large number of riders on a trail in a window of time. I heard negativity from folks who could not find parking where we staged as they came for their walk. I heard it from a walker as we went through a gate: “we have about 15 more coming...”, “oh great” she said cynically. I’ve heard it in Del Valle, a vast wasteland where we were encountered for no more than 4 minutes in the walker’s entire day as she complained to the Ranger there. I heard it in Farifaxians initial post, too. With the Berkeley, Albany, and El Cerrito NorCal teams we could bring 80 riders into the Wildcat Canyon/Tilden area in a 3-hour period. We did our best to break up into 4-7 person supervised groups. Here, too, we are doing the same and I believe our presence is reasonable.

    Some of you who know me know that I do not believe that crashing or harm is a necessary part of mountain biking or that, at the very least, damage can be kept to a remarkably small minimum. It is easier to assure this when you are training teens as they have to listen to you or they get sent home. With adults it is more of a challenge as they don’t have to listen to anyone or are learning by the trial and error method. That said, the culture created the Gala Ride goes a long way to embrace and promote safe riding for all and a more postive trail sharing experience.

    Yet...someone of us has been harmed by one of our own riding with us. I’m glad it wasn’t the dad and kid on the trail-a-bike we passed near 5 Corners (I slowed and said, hey dudes!) No, it was someone who was JRA on a beautiful Saturday afternoon on one of their local trails with friends. Someone I might ride with on any day or who might have tossed me a tube at the top of Oat Hill. Someone I sat next to sharing an Epiphany at Iron Springs. I think that this is the real point.

    I doubt that there is anyone within earshot that doesn’t feel badly about this insult. And it is not possible to undo what has happened. I tell you what I would like to do; I would like to make personal contact with the rider who was injured and spend some time with them.

    Would someone here help me do that?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Large Group Incident - Fairfax-mtbr203498002b.jpg  

    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 02-11-2013 at 01:14 PM.
    I don't rattle.

  14. #14
    NedwannaB
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    We are all mountain bikers. Lets learn from this one.

    Need not worry where anyone is from. If you are on a bike you are my bro. Bottom line.
    Hey Davey, no wasn't going there or passing judgement as the paticulars of the incident aren't out. Like the OP mentioned not sure if the rider was in their group. I just know a few riders in that group, know alot are regulars on here, and was surprised nothing was mentioned in defense or otherwise. And based on the amount of riders an incident such as this would have been discussed at breaks or post ride get together.

    How was your Saturday ?
    Wait,who did he tell you that?....

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    Large Group Incident - Fairfax

    I hope this is resolved and people take it a little more easy. I'm up there hiking with a kid on my back many weekends and although we stick to single track, we use the protection road as our connector. It is scary to have a large group wiz by I might add.

  16. #16
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    Just to be clear, this is where the group parks: In the Fairfax Post Office parking lot, the one reserved and marked for patrons of the local businesses.

    There are always several cars and trucks, with the racks down. I saw an old man trying to park, to go pick up his mail. It was very difficult for him to see behind, because someone was too busy stretching on their rack, instead of folding it up as a courtesy. Of course, parking spaces are at a premium, because you can see the Mercedes (a couple of bikers in the group) taking up 2 spots. What you can't see out of the frame is a Honda Element, from the same group, taking up 2 more spaces (with an SF resident parking tag and a Bolinas surf shop sticker...oh the irony).

    I saw a mother and daughter walking from the Post Office, who had to stop abruptly, because a bike racker pulled up and turned right where they were about to walk.

    Much more of this, and Fairfax will wish they never heard of Joe Breeze and kick his ass back to Mill Valley.

    If Berkeley Mike is a spokesman or representative of this group, I hope that he will look around at what a local resident might think of the overall impression this group makes on the town. Sort of an outside-looking-in view towards presenting a better image, to benefit ALL mtber's in the area.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Large Group Incident - Fairfax-asshole-parking.jpg  

    Last edited by squareback; 02-11-2013 at 01:43 PM.

  17. #17
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    Large Group Incident - Fairfax

    Why the heck would anyone cross a bridge to ride a fireroad anyway? I only ride them because they're out my door now. The town was loaded with roadies over the weekend too and parking was indeed a mess.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    Why the heck would anyone cross a bridge to ride a fireroad anyway? I only ride them because they're out my door now. The town was loaded with roadies over the weekend too and parking was indeed a mess.
    Sometimes a ride is more about the people you'll be riding with and less about whose crappy-ass fireroads you'll be riding on. I've got, bar none, the most craptastic fireroads right out my front door and if I'm riding by myself, that's where I go.

    Once a month my friends come from far and wide to ride together in a celebration of human spirit and mountain bikes and once in a blue moon someone gets out of control. I was not riding with the subgroup that had the incident and I did my best as I guided the late-running "advanced" ride back. I warned our group as we approached 5-corners that we were once again in a high-density area and to be on our best and most cautious behavior, not knowing what had transpired an hour earlier. We met nothing but smiles from riders, hikers, strollers and dog walkers alike for our last few miles on that beautiful day.

    I can only assume that we didn't come to find out about this incident until today as the subgroup participants had departed before we returned. It is a horrible tragedy. I am glad that nothing worse came of this as it could have been much worse.
    There are no stupid questions but there are A LOT of inquisitive idiots.


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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    I found out about this after the fact and dug into it.
    Mike, everything you said is much appreciated. In my book, you never argue with a volunteer, but...

    I used to be an avid motorcycle rider - to the maximum extent of the word. We would go on large group rides, and I would host track days for those who wanted to give race track riding a try. I raced, built motorcycles, yada yada yada.

    On large group rides, it was inevitable that somebody would eat it almost every ride. EVERY RIDE. Most of the time, it would be somebody mis-judging a curve and going off road and falling. Sometimes, the accidents were bad; a few fatal. It's something else to see somebody get cuts and abrasions, it's another thing to witness a lifeless body laying on the side of the road when you were just talking to the guy the day before.

    I'm sorry, but in my many motorcycle years of dealing with large group rides and watching people eat asphalt and dirt, it all came down to one thing: People riding over their head. Plain and simple. It's like car traffic, one brake light begets another brake light - and soon you have gridlock on 880N.

    The ride leader paces the entire group - when that ride leader starts to let it hang loose, especially if he knows the trail really well, then the rest will follow - even those who don't know the trail or feel comfortable riding that fast. In the group, they will resist holding back. But most likely, on a solo ride, they would show constraint. Sounds like this person may have been trying to "keep up" and just rode over their head.

    The ride leader should've put the binders on and slowed the entire group down, yelling for the rest of the group to slow down, as well, until the entire group knew it was slow down time on a crowded multi-use trail. We also utilized a "Sweep" - somebody who was just as skilled as the ride leader, to make sure everybody made it safely and nobody got left behind. I'm sure you have something similar implemented - but the OP didn't mention anything about a responsible, competent sweep - in fact, it was the last rider that ate it.

    On our little Southbay rides, Leopold Porkstacker usually leads, and I sweep to make sure everybody makes it to the stop points safely. And since I know our trails so well, I can concentrate on upcoming obstacles and warn the back-of-the-pack ahead of time.

    You can coach people all you want about "riding within your limits" but egos are big. Although you say these cases are rare, the larger the group, the bigger the egos, the more chances for these things to happen. When somebody is a ride leader, they are taking full responsibility of the group. In this case, like in the cases from my motorcycle days, this incident is a reflection on the group, not solely on the individual rider - and the other trail users will view it as such.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post

    You can coach people all you want about "riding within your limits" but egos are big. Although you say these cases are rare, the larger the group, the bigger the egos, the more chances for these things to happen. When somebody is a ride leader, they are taking full responsibility of the group. In this case, like in the cases from my motorcycle days, this incident is a reflection on the group, not solely on the individual rider - and the other trail users will view it as such.
    Ok, now this is turning into a b!tchfest...
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan'ger View Post
    Sometimes a ride is more about the people you'll be riding with and less about whose crappy-ass fireroads you'll be riding on.
    Yes. This^^^. Tam and the aforementioned fireroads are an awesome place to ride! I agree Dano, what's that got anything to do with the topic at hand. Things are getting wayyy OT......
    Wait,who did he tell you that?....

  22. #22
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    Large Group Incident - Fairfax

    Quote Originally Posted by JMac47 View Post
    Yes. This^^^. Tam and the aforementioned fireroads are an awesome place to ride! I agree Dano, what's that got anything to do with the topic at hand. Things are getting wayyy OT......
    Sorry to go OT, I guess I was just curious to why people flood my adopted home town to ride fireroads when the same drives nets glorious single track in SM county.

  23. #23
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    Large Group Incident - Fairfax

    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Ok, now this is turning into a b!tchfest...
    Right?
    Mike the guy who hit the other dude needs to get with him and be the hugger, not you.
    Just sayin.
    Good luck!
    A pristine bike free of dirt, scratches, and wear marks makes me sort of sad

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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    Sorry to go OT, I guess I was just curious to why people flood my adopted home town to ride fireroads when the same drives nets glorious single track in SM county.
    SS, please don't tell us you've fallen into your new adopted Marin towns "I got mine, you can't ha...." mentality. All seriousness aside, the weekend weather must have been a madhouse in downtown F Town.
    Wait,who did he tell you that?....

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by squareback View Post
    Just to be clear, this is where the group parks: In the Fairfax Post Office parking lot, the one reserved and marked for patrons of the local businesses.
    I believe you are out of proportion about the BTCEB parking here for the event. While we might have a few riders there we set up our parking near the school well down Porteous.

    The parking lot you describe is often utilized by people who ride in the Fairfax destination area. With the closure of the Java Hut parking area due to the new owners of the grocery store some riders, who a probably riding Tamarancho in the dozens or even hundreds, do use that lot in great numbers.
    I don't rattle.

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