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  1. #151
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post
    ...spam being fried?
    Please, do not quote spammers. There keywords in google results is what they want. Let admins clean them up.

  2. #152
    middle ring single track
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    point taken...

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Please, do not quote spammers. There keywords in google results is what they want. Let admins clean them up.
    ...but the mods are a bit slow at times. Plus did you notice that I was careful that there were no live links in what I quoted?

    I like quoting them at the same time as I report (!) them as sort of a "head on a pike" to serve notice that they shouldn't even bother spamming at MTBR.

    Perhaps a better solution would be to have the first 10 posts from a newbie member held-up until passed by the mods? (rather than the current restrictions)
    The views and opinions expressed here are those of the author and do not represent any policy of the CA Dept. of Parks & Rec.

  3. #153
    Is now still the time?
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    Update. For the record I was fired the other week from the volunteer program at Henry W. Coe State Park for expressing my opinion. This happens just as my term as President of the park association ended. Nice to get a kick in the ass on my out!

    SOrCerer

  4. #154
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    I might begin saying more

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcerer View Post
    The Trails Handbook is copyrighted 1991.

    I'm a student in the Group 8 DPR Basic Trails Program. As far as I know, I'm the first volunteer to undergo this training (some of it is indoctrination). Typically DPR maintenance workers and skilled laborers and personnel from many agencies in the USA take this multi-week and multi-year course. My classmates are from State Parks, US Army Corp of Engineers, CCC, trail building groups, National Park Service, various county and city parks, and from other land management agencies like open space districts and water manageent agencies. Some Santa Clara County and Mid-peninsula Regional Open Space employees have attended this program.

    My training so far consists of two full weeks of curriculum. One week was spent in Big Sur last June, and the other in Pt Lobos last October.

    The point of this training is specifically to benefit the trails of Henry W Coe SP. I have actually made a detailed guide for the leading volunteers like Diesel and Paul with what I think are useful excerpts from this guidebook.

    A new handbook is forthcoming, and we may see it this year. The current handbook is a three ring loose-leaf binder with so many additional supplements, that they won't fit inside. There is some dated information and techniques inside. For example, inside are detailed descriptions of water bars (9.2.4). Water bars are not being installed anymore.

    There's a lot more I would like to say at some point.
    Now that I've been fired, for expressing opinions, I might start revealing some facts and stronger opinions that I had to hold back while I was a uniformed volunteer/unpaid DPR employee.



    One of the signs of progress in a different agency:

    SOrCerer

  5. #155
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    Are there any newer post or discussions on this topic elsewhere? It's been over a year since this last post. Being a fairly new rider to the area I'm very curious on the current and future of Coe.

  6. #156
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    Wow you got burned Sorcerer. Sorry to hear and thanks for the time you put in.

  7. #157
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    All the latest work on JD from my untrained eye also appears to be the location of the most erosion, fine examples of DPR STANDARDS!
    Go get that KOM "You Deserve" - http://www.digitalepo.com/index.php

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeBC View Post
    All the latest work on JD from my untrained eye also appears to be the location of the most erosion, fine examples of DPR STANDARDS!
    And I'm guessing that is where people tried to say "hey, that's a bad idea there"
    Lead by my Lefty............... right down the trail, no brakes.

  9. #159
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    It's where they decided to remove rolling grade (edit) dips that someone decided looked like jumps.
    Last edited by Fast Eddy; 04-08-2014 at 10:35 PM.

  10. #160
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    and why they now get a couple dozen volunteers a year instead of a month or week.
    Here's to sweat in your eye.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddy View Post
    It's where they decided to remove rolling grade reversals that someone decided looked like jumps.
    rolling grade reversals??? Don't those do silly things like stop water acceleration and such?
    Lead by my Lefty............... right down the trail, no brakes.

  12. #162
    More pie please
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    "There is no one available to run this trail work day"






    3rd or 4th postponement in a row...that's the current status of the trailwork program.

    ///Charlie
    Long live long rides

  13. #163
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    To clarify...

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyline35 View Post

    3rd or 4th postponement in a row...that's the current status of the trailwork program.

    ///Charlie
    The first 3 "postponements" were because staff decided that they could only do "supervision" one weekend a month, and the CMBP decided to defer to the TWD's that the MAU had scheduled (which BTW went on as scheduled with a good turnout)

    April's CMBP TWD was postponed because the only Uniformed Volunteer (me) willing to take on the JDT project has to drive a group back to the Rooster Comb for an all-day outing. Can't be 2 places at once...

    The CMBP 2nd Saturday TWD is "thumbs-up" for next month (May 10th)

    To further the discussion about State Park trail standards; the CSP is fine with "Grade Reversals" on trails in their park units; it's the "Rolling Grade Dips" (RGDs) that they take exception to.

    You can argue with them (I have) until you're blue in the face but they will not concede that a RGD is different than a purpose-constructed bike jump. We have to be content with "Drainage Knicks" for getting water off the trail. (Of course these need to be placed twice as often as RGDs and last 1/4 as long!)

    BTW; with enough Grade Reversals, RGDs are not really necessary IMHO.

    Berm turns? That's another can o'worms...
    The views and opinions expressed here are those of the author and do not represent any policy of the CA Dept. of Parks & Rec.

  14. #164
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    Hi,

    Happened to see this thread resurface while I visited this forum this morning to see how the threads on the Bell Built grant were going, and I thought about this quite a bit today. Most days I do not give a thought about Henry W. Coe anymore. I still love the place, and the volunteers though.

    My last photo on this thread shows me out of uniform and with a bandana across my mouth. I covered my mouth, because I did not want to post anything. Put a muzzle on it, to be careful.

    Well I'm past that stage now. But I won't say anything hard hitting unless someone asks the right questions.

    That park is pretty cool as is. It still has great potential too. Sometimes I wonder whether the modern trails of Jackson and Spike Jones were so poorly aligned and integrated to discourage access, and uphill bicycle access in particular. These trails are modern and do not comply with agency specifications.

    The recent bracket of dryer than "normal" winters since I stopped doing trail work have been kind to the steep roads and trails. It has been so arid that good trail work conditions have been rare as well.

    I agree that some of the subsequent work on the JDT has been poor. What is in the works is a mystery to me. Priorities are apparently lacking. The trail exists, floating out there like a boat without sails, rudder, and sailors. It's a sad legacy for me, and the park.

    One of the things that irks me still, is the instance of the thick low branch on the Ichabods Oak. It did get cut, and the clearance obtained is less than the DPR requirement. Okay it is fine for bike riding, and for most horse riders. The horse riders may have to stoop on their mounts. The trail bed could still be lowered a bit. However, I think the alternatives were not given fair consideration. It's a small thing, I know, but it is a subset of the communication problems and sclerotic bureaucratic process that did not work.

    There was a threshold which was crossed when Volunteers Outdoors California came to help. Perhaps this was the origin of my demise there. It was a part for sure.

    In short, the weather in the weekdays prior to the event was wet, and the trails supervisor cancelled the event. I thought that it should have gone on. The weekend was dry and the trail work conditions would have been close to ideal. Well, the Supervising Ranger decided to deny rescheduling the event because VOCAL did not have a back up date reserved. I did not like this. Apparently many others wished to reschedule the trail work as well. We networked. There may have been appeals to higher authority whose influence made rescheduling irresistible. Going above, probably did not go well with the Supervising Ranger and the Superintendents. The event happened, and trail work was done. Subsequently the relationship between myself and the senior staff chilled more.

    It had not been as good as it should have been. The Sector Superintendent and his Supervising Ranger were not exactly welcoming when they arrived in the park, after I was an established volunteer. I had drank the IMBA kool-aid some years prior, with a little medicine. In retrospect, not enough medicine, so to speak. Anyway, as I learned more, I became more and more concerned about liability and safety issues. Safety was always on my mind, because I could see that a bad accident is bad enough, but that it could also halt volunteer work. The Superintendent made two requests. One was to become a uniformed volunteer. The other was to form a mountain bike patrol. These items were fulfilled. Then the Superintendent said that I needed to go to the DPR trail school and complete the course. I did that too.

    In the course of that training I learned a lot of good information and put it into practice. At the same time, there were some things I disagreed with in practice. These are in the minority though.

    Let me go back to the beginning. I saw Coe as a place that needed trail maintenance and trail development. I was, in a way, like an idealistic person who decides they want to become a teacher to make the world a better place by starting with the noble ideal of educating children to be good people, but who end up not able to express those ideals due to regulations and policy which guide curriculum. In other words I was probably pretty stupid to expect the State parks agency to agree to allow volunteers to do better trail work than their own paid crews.

    In a profound way, the trail standards are like some of the education standards in the USA: dumbed down. The trail system, as defined in the specifications (note, not as expressed in the actual field), is hyper-conscious towards the safety of visitors. Perhaps the agency really cares about us. But I'd venture to say that we don't want them to care in the way they do. It's hard for me to tell the difference sometimes, whether or not they are really just trying to cover their ass with their signs and pleadings, or just provoke you into doing something they can cite you for. There's a lot of Orwellian doublespeak going on.

    Parse this: Trails should be safe. Well, I'm sorry, no trail can be deemed safe. Alright then, how about trails should be as safe as possible? Well that is even worse.

    Furthermore in this vein, another disappointing aspect of the State Parks style of administration became clear even to me after a while: The concept that trails in State Parks should not become destinations in themselves. The ruling paradigm (dogma) in State Parks is that the trail is merely a means of visiting the reason for the park, and that it should not upstage the scenery, or cultural significance.

    I thought about this stuff for awhile, and I don't recommend it. It is like a snake eating itself.

    Stepping back, and looking at it from afar, I realized that the policy is purposed to deflect attempts at innovation, improvement; stifle local influence; to attempt to impose a bland hypocrisy (while on one hand congratulating themselves on how good a trail looks, they on the other hand praise how it blends into the nature and doesn't impose, and delight in the safety of the 8 foot trail corridor) of trail design (terrain dictates otherwise thank goodness); and confound outsiders.

    This is the nice stuff. I am glad I was stopped. Yes, at the time it was a disappointment. But I had been working under conditions that were not to my liking. I never liked the uniform. I never liked the policing aspect of the Bike Patrol. I just saw the patrol as means towards getting trail work done. Half of it was good, and half was not. I also did not like the merit system the volunteer program and all of the badges etc. I tried to assimilate, but it's not my scene. I'm round, not square.

    That is all I have to say.
    SOrCerer

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeBC View Post
    All the latest work on JD from my untrained eye also appears to be the location of the most erosion, fine examples of DPR STANDARDS!
    Their handbook uses 50 year old techniques. And in spite of the fact that the CA State Parks hosts the CA Greenways and Trails Conference where net trail building techniques are shared every year, the old handbook remains, never updated.
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  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcerer View Post
    Hi,

    Happened to see this thread resurface while I visited this forum this morning to see how the threads on the Bell Built grant were going, and I thought about this quite a bit today. Most days I do not give a thought about Henry W. Coe anymore. I still love the place, and the volunteers though.

    My last photo on this thread shows me out of uniform and with a bandana across my mouth. I covered my mouth, because I did not want to post anything. Put a muzzle on it, to be careful.......

    .....That is all I have to say.
    Appreciate the perspective, and positive attitude, Sorcerer. Your frequent presence in the park is definitely missed.

    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post

    ....To further the discussion about State Park trail standards; the CSP is fine with "Grade Reversals" on trails in their park units; it's the "Rolling Grade Dips" (RGDs) that they take exception to.

    You can argue with them (I have) until you're blue in the face but they will not concede that a RGD is different than a purpose-constructed bike jump. We have to be content with "Drainage Knicks" for getting water off the trail. (Of course these need to be placed twice as often as RGDs and last 1/4 as long!)

    BTW; with enough Grade Reversals, RGDs are not really necessary IMHO.
    PL, your continued work at Coe is much appreciated. Definitely an important, but thankless job.

    I know I'm preaching to the choir, and I don't want to rehash or restate prior commentary, logic, or lack thereof. I do find some irony (imagine that) in the CSP position you mention above. Grade reversals are fine, according to CSP policy, but to add a single true reversal to an existing trail would require moving the bench from its defined alignment, which in turn would require the onerous and nearly impossible to complete PEF process. As a result we're back to square one.

    One of the criticisms that I often hear is that the reason IMBA advocates RGDs is due to the fact that they fun for bikes, even though they are not the best approach to erosion control. We all know that this is a falsehood, and I find it interesting to see the approaches taken by other land stewards in the area, including those not mired in ancient government bureaucracy and dogma. Let's take a look at the approach taken by POST, which is a highly respected conservation and protection agency in they bay area, with a rich history of adding lands to parks and open space areas enjoyed by many types of users. When it comes to trail management, they strive to take the best and most logical approach, independent of the type of user.

    -D

    Jim Donnelly enters rehab...-img_0506r.jpg

  17. #167
    aka dan51
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    lol, RGD are bike jumps? They are the worst kind of jump. Nothing like dropping into a hole just before trying to jump. Further proof they are idiots and have no idea what the bike riding experience is like.

    We rode Coe last weekend, and the ruts are getting out of control on some trails. Too bad they don't have a team of volunteers to fix them...
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    ...People thought they were getting a good fork because it was a "fox".

  18. #168
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    I agree with d-bug, rgd are not good for jumps. You can get a foot or two of air off of them but as d-bug points out you drop down into them then come out. I find it somewhat amusing because an rgd actually slows a bike rider down. On top of that if you do by chance boost a rgd this causes a further loss of speed. You want to go fast, keep the tires on the ground.

    The second thing that has never sat well with me with the refusal to build bermed corners. The Supervisors insistence on off camber corners actually makes for an unsafe corner. Riders are way more likely to crash and get hurt going around an off camber corner. Touch the front brake in one of those and your likely to get hurt.

    EDIT:

    Last comment on the JDT. Currently the JDT seems to be producing the kind of trail they are trying to avoid, it is dangerous whether you are fast or slow because of the off camber corners and it is most dangerous for inexperienced riders. This trail is also shaping to be a great trail to go fast on if you are good at that kind of thing. It is flat, wide and with nothing to inhibit speed. Hate to burst their bubble but for a good rider those off camber corners just do not do much to slow us down. But, the off camber corner does take a beating.

    Who are they trying to setup for failure, us, them, the trail, all the above?
    Here's to sweat in your eye.

  19. #169
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    JD is all about being an easy elevator up, my bet is it sees very little downhill bike traffic, I rarely see anyone come down it. Which make it even more ridicules that there were wringing there hands that it might be to fun for bikes going down, I tried it down once before they started destroying it and did not find it anywhere close to the fun I have on the other choices going down in the area, like Spike Jones, Middle Steer or Lyman Wilson.
    Go get that KOM "You Deserve" - http://www.digitalepo.com/index.php

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