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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen
    no, but I would trust some underpaid Taiwanese employee in a Taiwanese village to layup my head tube just right. Those guys know what's up.... as long as they have an american QC engineer riding their butt for anything that goes wrong.
    Did not work out that well for Boeing and their wings, did it? Don't you like that a 787 you may board soon would have some patches applied.

    Useless discussion anyway. All major manufacturers make fine bikes suitable for their stated purpose, everybody sould just buy what they like. I do not shy away from carbon on a trail bike - I shy away from spending money that I can use for something else.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePunisher
    get the latest issue of Mountain Bike and read the article. it's really informative.

    If you really ride hard; sooner or later you will crash. regardless or the bike's material, if you carsh in rocks it will leave a mark. A dent on aluminum to me is less worisome than a chip in carbon.

    if you ride tigh single track with boulders; sooner or later you'll end up catching one of them with your stays.

    Lastly, have you even seen bikes after a full summer of high mountain riding in rocks? the downtube looks like it's been shot by a shot gun (eg many small dings and dents). I've even seen some with big dents near the BB.

    But will get the job done - but I personally feel safer on an Aluminum frame for this particular kind of riding.
    Dude, seriously, you should throw away all those mountain bike magazines. Those dudes are casual riders, at best, who spew garbage all over the place trying to convince people they know what they're talking about. Ask them how many years they've been a mechanical engineer designing with composite materials, and where they learned to do that. Until then, those mags are probably better for wiping your a$$ on the side of the trail.

    The top few plies on most bikes are superficial (there for looks and protection against the real load bearing plies). I'd much much rather have a nick in a sacrificial ply than a dent in an aluminum tube that causes a stress concentration and will lead to buckling.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePunisher
    Aren't you sponsored by the big "S"? If you crack or damage your bike, you'll probably have a new one the next day. unfortunately it doesn't work like that for everyone.
    You're right, but do you think I would be risking my life just for free bikes? No way. I've got a job.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by beaverbiker
    You're right, but do you think I would be risking my life just for free bikes? No way. I've got a job.
    But you certainly would not risk damage to your wallet. I think that was his point. It is a slightly different thought process when you pay a few thousand of your own $ for something that should last you for a few years.

    As far as asking an engineer with experience with composite materials - it just happened that right now I sit next door to a guy who was working on a project I have mentioned above. He agrees with my attitude towards this - to use something else for a while - and he has no vested interest in selling those frames, unlike engineers from bike companies.

    Quote Originally Posted by beaverbiker
    I'd much much rather have a nick in a sacrificial ply than a dent in an aluminum tube that causes a stress concentration and will lead to buckling.
    True, but you can see a dent. I would rather see (or not) a dent in a titanium tube when I keep riding at night, then keep guessing it that nick was superficial or not. But that is me being a cheap bastard.

  5. #80
    I just wanna go fast...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    Did not work out that well for Boeing and their wings, did it? Don't you like that a 787 you may board soon would have some patches applied.

    Now I know I drink a bit more beer and eat a bit more pizza than I should, but I'm pretty sure that even with 10 extra winter pounds that I may or may not have put on, I will come nowhere near putting a carbon DH or AM bike through what a 787 wing might experience.

    I hear ya on cost though. My current AM bike is 4 years old, aluminum and has more flex out back than a 18 year old yoga student. I've hucked it off dumb stuff, crashed it into more dumb stuff and bailed on it over the transition of stuff even dumber still. I'm actually waiting for the day when it disintegrates under me through a rough section. Maybe this year I'll pick up a new frame, but chances are I won't be able to afford carbon.

    If I could though, I'd rock one with out a single doubt in my mind that it would hold up better than the heap I'm currently riding.

  6. #81
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    Wow -- beaverbiker,

    I do feel much better about my carbon wheels now! Thanks...

    Btw I am riding about 500+ miles a month and my own bones and edge of the trail concern me a lot more than engineered parts beating over the rocks.

    Curmy - I don't think anybody is in disagreement with you that AL is cheaper and maybe even a better value. I think we would all agree that someone who only cares to spend a fixed amount, might be better getting an AL frame with great suspension, wheels etc. rather than getting a 4,400 frame/fork and slapping lower end components on.

    That said, I don't think the value issue is on the table for El Castigador. I believe he looking at positives of CF such as increased stiffness, and the better dampening; but is concerned about the impact resistance of CF.

    Taking money completely out of the issue, well designed and built CF wins over thin wall AL..

    The only question El Castigador should ask himself is "If I crash hard enough or unlucky enough to kill a AL or CF frame can I afford to replace it? "

    BTW I was talking about the sram BIKE hydros not cars..
    Jt

    Here are a few Video Trail Guides I shot - just for fun:
    http://destinationproductions.com/cu...PassionTrails/

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    But you certainly would not risk damage to your wallet. I think that was his point. It is a slightly different thought process when you pay a few thousand of your own $ for something that should last you for a few years.
    Obviously I care about spending money as I am not rich, but I care much much more about my boyish good looks than I do about how fat my wallet is. If I thought it was dangerous to my health and facial features to ride the carbon one, I'd ride the aluminum one. If you wreck super hard and you break your bike, you'll probably be spending a lot more on hospital bills and pain and suffering than the cost of buying a new bike. Specialized doesn't pay my medical bills, but at least they can give me super solid and dialed bikes to test out instead of some sketchy plastic thing designed in international waters by pirates.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    As far as asking an engineer with experience with composite materials - it just happened that right now I sit next door to a guy who was working on a project I have mentioned above. He agrees with my attitude towards this - to use something else for a while - and he has no vested interest in selling those frames, unlike engineers from bike companies.
    Is that guy the one that was trying to build a support structure out of composites? What happened? I'm not trying to start a war, just curious. I happen to be in the same industry...

    What your buddy was probably telling you was to stay clear of first generation things as they are not proven and you should "use something else for a while" until they get it dialed in. And I pretty much agree with that for the most part. The thing is, Specialized and other bike companies have been making composite bikes for a very very long time. And other companies, like the one I work for, have been building things that are even bigger and badder than a bicycle, out of composites for 50 years. This stuff ain't new and unproven. It's easier for most people to layup some composite brackets and bolt them together than it is to machine the parts out of metal and weld them together. Less chance of voids too...

  9. #84
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    DAMPING - to absorb energy
    DAMPENING - to get wet (like with water)

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by beaverbiker
    Is that guy the one that was trying to build a support structure out of composites? What happened? I'm not trying to start a war, just curious. I happen to be in the same industry...
    It was hard to build, test and validate and did not bring enough benefits to spend more money on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by beaverbiker
    What your buddy was probably telling you was to stay clear of first generation things as they are not proven and you should "use something else for a while" until they get it dialed in. And I pretty much agree with that for the most part. The thing is, Specialized and other bike companies have been making composite bikes for a very very long time.
    No, for me it is not a question of quality or being a first generation. It is a simple cost/benefit analysis. I do not see any tangible benefits to the long travel full suspension frames so far to justify acquisition and possible maintenance and replacement costs. As I have mentioned in this thread - stiffness seems to be the function of suspension and pivots design - and there are plenty of cheap frames that are strong and stiff enough (my Coiler feels stiffer then Mojo I have ridden, not that I obsess over that). "Damping" does not seem to be of any importance for the wall thickness they use, and given that I have 160mm of plush suspension on both ends.

    For a weenie hardtail I certainly see benefits, but then my very specific use case (adventure racing usage at night) makes titanium my material of choice. It is a more resilient material with a minimal weight penalty, comparable cost, arguably better comfort level of riding and sufficient (for me) stiffness.

    For an AM hardtail I went with steel (TransAm). Slack and strong. I am not aware of CF alternative to that genre of frames.

    Cost/benefits - not paranoia.
    Last edited by Broccoli; 03-03-2010 at 03:39 PM.

  11. #86
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    I have a GT Force Carbon. No issues.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0gre
    One of the TROGS had a mojo, after the third time the frame broke (different issues each time) he sold it and will never go back.

    I know carbon can be quite solid but I'm not sure it's there yet in the cycling industry.
    Yup... he broke 3 mojos...first one he just flopped over sideways going slow picking his way through a rocky line on a trail and a rock poked a hole in the stay... that's the one I witnessed... the other two I never saw...

    Carbon is for road bikes.
    Trogs: Too Tough for Carbon Fiber

  13. #88
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    When I look at it? It comes down to money. I would love a Fuel 9.9EX or a Remedy 9.9, but I cannot justify the money when I will want something new in 7-8 years. Also you cannot even buy just a frame and put all the cool upgrades you may have on your existing bike onto your new frame. So I am looking at a Camfiled Bro's One frame. I have had only the chance to test ride the oclv frames and they feel sweet. Just way out of the price range. So based on your situation it differs for everyone. If you get caught up in the which one can outlast the other Carbon or AL...you will have a nervous break down. They are both great and if there is a serious problem you will have to deal with the manufacturer. Research that? How is the manufacturer going to take care of you if its on there side?

  14. #89
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    fter yesterday's soggy demo ride at Demo, I'm sold on the carbon Enduro. Even with the 66 degree HT angle, and a 36T "middle" ring, it hammered up the muddy Sulpher Springs easily. It feels quite a bit livelier and stiffer than the Alu version, and feels beefy enough to calm my carbon paranoia.

    Braille was a lot of fun too! The teeter-totter toward the top was a little slow to actuate, so it turned into a 3' roller instead. Pretty sure I would have gone OTB on my old Enduro.

    Anyone know if there are any changes to the frame planned for 2011?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails I need advice, Carbon or Aluminum?-1.jpg  

    I need advice, Carbon or Aluminum?-3.jpg  

    I need advice, Carbon or Aluminum?-4.jpg  


  15. #90
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    None of the above

    For the price of a carbon frame you can pick up a titanium frame on clearance that will last a lifetime, never dent or crack and only be a slight weight increase over aluminum. Yes a titanium frame will be heavier than either and be less stiff, however the flex in it will also make it far more durable. Also the frame being flexible will absorb some shocks from the trail.

    (Note, a thick side walled 7075 aluminum t6 or t651 temper will hold up relatively well also. However you risk denting or fracturing the frame with extended use. Keep in mind lighter frames generally mean easier to break frames. Lighter might sound better but do you think your going to notice a few extra pounds biking compared to a few less pushing.)

    (PS you can pick up titanium frames online for $400-$500)

  16. #91
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    Good info Andrew. I am sure the OP still hasn't made his mind up 2 and a half years later and will appreciate your input.

  17. #92
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    Well, we have to consider catratrophic failure vs. fatigue. Oh, wait, this isn't 2001. Nevermind.
    I don't rattle.

  18. #93
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    How many of us have carbon bikes now? I have and still do

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrew hild View Post
    (PS you can pick up titanium frames online for $400-$500)
    Out of curiosity, where can one pick up titanium frames online for $400-$500? Are we talking new or 10-15 years old? direct from China or US retailer?

    I'm not being contrarian here; I am in the market for 1 & want to know where these deals are!

    Thanks!

    LJ

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shwaa View Post
    Good info Andrew. I am sure the OP still hasn't made his mind up 2 and a half years later and will appreciate your input.
    hey lippy, your on the forum so clearly people are still interested in the topic.

  21. #96
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    TI frames

    Quote Originally Posted by skyno View Post
    Out of curiosity, where can one pick up titanium frames online for $400-$500? Are we talking new or 10-15 years old? direct from China or US retailer?

    I'm not being contrarian here; I am in the market for 1 & want to know where these deals are!

    Thanks!

    LJ
    It has been a while since I have looked, I have seen them before on clearance or holiday sales, you just have to check a lot. Used you will be hard pressed to find one but there out there. Sorry but I don't remember the site names. Yes by the way they were cheap and probably foreign frames.

  22. #97
    I just wanna go fast...
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    Still on an aluminum frame, but at least a new one now. I'd be riding carbon but I still can't afford it since I have to buy the wife a new frame every time I buy a new frame.

  23. #98
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    Recently, I was considering my steel frame for an aluminum one. It would be a hardtail XC to replace my On-One Inbred.

    Back in the good ol' BMX days, we'd break frames all the time (4130 chromoly). The amount of abuse that our 20" bikes would go through was ridiculous, and I did this as a stocky 14 yr. old. Whenever they would break, we'd grab our allowance money and take it over to Paul Sadoff at Rock Lobster, and for a few bucks, he'd repair them for us and we'd be on our way.

    So, as a 220lb. 38 year old adult who really, really, really likes doing stupid things on MTB's - I've decided that I'm just going to stick with my steel bikes. In fact, I own nothing but steel. There is a weight penalty, and FS doesn't come in steel, but I'm sticking with it. I'm slow as it is, and watching Leopold Porkstacker stay consistent as a local Strava Leader here in SJ, I think that this bike is much better than me.

    However, given my weight, if I were to "upgrade" I'd go with aluminum. Some of you skinny kids, even when riding hard, probably don't stress a frame like I would. Maybe this is just all in my head, but part of the equation is believing your bike isn't going to fail you - and on the mental aspect of MTB'ing I think that means a lot.

    As much as I love the idea of carbon - I think I'd be nervous as a heavyweight riding it. Even if it could handle me, the idea of it breaking would always be on my mind.

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Maybe this is just all in my head, but part of the equation is believing your bike isn't going to fail you - and on the mental aspect of MTB'ing I think that means a lot.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    FS doesn't come in steel
    You have to go boutique. There are others, but here's two.

    the Product of COTIC cycles : droplink ROCKET

    SyCip Full Suspension Bikes - Handcrafted in Sonoma County, California
    Last edited by IAmHolland; 11-28-2012 at 01:29 PM.

  25. #100
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    A interesting carbon failure.



    Even after seeing that video I'm not concerned with using carbon. Most bikes these days are designed well enough that catastrophic failures are very rare, no matter the material. My biggest issue with carbon is cost and even that is slowly changing. As Dion pointed out the limiting factor is usually the rider and not the bike.

    The choice between carbon or other materials also depends on what you are looking for in a bike. For me carbon makes sense for a hardtail but AL is best for a FS. I have ridden AL HTs for years and they are stiff and strong. It wasn't until I demo'd a carbon HT that I realized how stiff and abusive the ride of a AL HT is. My new XC race bike will be carbon because I want it light and with a softer ride. But Ti or steel will get one a softer ride than AL at less cost than carbon. For a FS trail bike I'll stick with AL, an FS frame needs to be as stiff as possible to let the suspension do the work and not the frame. So either AL or carbon fits the bill. Next is weight, with a trail bike I'm not looking for the lightest thing around. Also, the weight difference is minimal, usually a pound or two. For me the big driver is cost, a carbon FS frame is 1.5-2X the cost of AL. I'd rather use that money for something else wheels, suspension, etc.

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