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  1. #26
    Crazed Country Rebel
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    Quote Originally Posted by csuder99
    Looking at the applications for carbon composite materials, there are basically two variants: Either it is a highly stressed structural component, like in a F1 car, a racing yacht or David Copperfield's flying harness, or it is supposed to take some abuse, like a bullet proof vest or skid plates for dirt bikes or rally racing cars. It's never both at the same time, which is why I have a no-carbon policy for my bikes.

    C>
    This is true. The only product I know of (other than bike frames) that uses carbon both as a structural element and one that takes beatings, is carbon baseball bats.

    The way they do this is by basically building one bat inside of another - the outside takes the hit, the inside acts as the structure of the bat. This isn't done in bike frames.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

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  2. #27
    dude with orange car
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    I just reread the OP. You're only entering your third year of riding? And you're hella better than me. Dammit. I take back what I said before.

    You need a play-doh bike with lead spokes and rims. Even the playing field up a bit.
    This is no time for levity. - Oliver Hardy

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles
    This is true. The only product I know of (other than bike frames) that uses carbon both as a structural element and one that takes beatings, is carbon baseball bats.

    The way they do this is by basically building one bat inside of another - the outside takes the hit, the inside acts as the structure of the bat. This isn't done in bike frames.
    There is also a good selection of single wall carbon bats -- the double wall bats are starting to fade do to league restrictions etc..
    Jt

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  4. #29
    more skier than biker
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    My one year old aluminum 29'er single speed hardtail has a crack in it. (and definitnely not a 'cheap' frame either). I ride and race nothing but XC on it.

    everything breaks.

    I have a carbon frame on order.

  5. #30
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    El Castigador,

    I think this thread is going in circular loops -- I read a couple of good points and even few ridiculous statements. Heck, somebody thinks carbon isn't stiff enough for them.. Darn, just the other day I heard Lance saying the same thing as he averaged 15mph at Leadville! OK not really, just attempting to point out just how off base some statements can be.

    In the end it might be wise not to listen to me, or anyone else. Just pick the frame that YOU WANT. If you think that carbon frame is sexy - get it.. or your always going to wish you did. If you can't afford it, don't sweat you'll have a blast on the light weight AL counterpart!

    good luck!
    Jt

    Here are a few Video Trail Guides I shot - just for fun:
    http://destinationproductions.com/cu...PassionTrails/

  6. #31
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    Get the bike you like.

    With an aluminum bike you will get a much better selection of frames for better price. So far full suspension carbon bikes had been not much lighter - if at all - and pricier. As far as durability, aluminum is easier to check for damage, so you worry less.

    You do not care as much about "dampening" in a full suspension frame, you have suspension for that. Stiffness will be a function of design and pivots, not of material. Most 6" bikes are plenty stiff. A very popular carbon trail bike - Ibis Mojo - is not known for stiffness.

    If I was building a new bike from scratch to replace my Coiler, I would either go back to Kona, as they are perfectly functional for the price, or get a Knolly frame for more money. Or maybe Pivot. Or Ventana (there was a good sale on Terremoto frames). Seems like my choices are all aluminum.

  7. #32
    Fat Skis/Fat Tires
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    Lots of interesting perspectives, yet I am not yet convinced either way.

    A little more info:

    I already know which frame I'll be buying, just not the material. The difference in cost between the two materials isn't really that much, and since I've been squirreling money away for a good long while, it's not a concern at all.

    I ABSOLUTELY want additional dampening, even on a 6" bike; I like a lot of squish on the downhills. My only reservation about carbon is its impact resistance. I'm not as concerned about a catastrophic frame failure as I am about it getting smacked by a babyhead, or Chuck knocking it into a granite boulder, and feeling insecure about its integrity thenceforth.

    How much abuse can a carbon frame really take? I'd probably end up putting some of the non-skid looking stuff that comes on the Remedys on the downtube anyway.

  8. #33
    aka dan51
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Castigador
    How much abuse can a carbon frame really take? I'd probably end up putting some of the non-skid looking stuff that comes on the Remedys on the downtube anyway.
    Brian Lopes has been riding/racing the Mojo for 2-3 years now and has yet to break one.
    Granted he's probably one of the smoothest riders on the planet.
    Troll the Ibis forum and look for any posts with broken Mojos. They do exist, but they are few and far between. Ibis usually has the replacement frame in the mail within 24 hours too.

    Sounds like you're looking at a Remedy. I'd be hesitant only because the carbon Remedy is so new. I like to give things some time and let others work the bugs out before I buy. They may have layup issues they don't yet know about. In a year the frame should be dialed to perfection. Same would go for aluminum frames. Both Justins in this thread broke their aluminum Remedys, and they were both first round production IIRC.

    Brian Lopes railing it down A-line at Whistler... from GoPro on Vimeo.

    Those who know, ride a Mojo AND a Mojo HD.
    Quadzilla
    Quote Originally Posted by benja55
    Ok, whatever, cold water on my bike boner right there.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Castigador
    I ABSOLUTELY want additional dampening, even on a 6" bike; I like a lot of squish on the downhills.
    I am not sure I understand how those two properties are related. If you like plush - you can get a coil shock and a plush fork (I really like Wotan for that, and also Van36) and suspension that does not need much of a "platform". I just turn pro-pedal completely off on DHX coil and do not care about a little bob. 6" carbon frames are quite thick, not like they are pliant to the level of 1kg weenie hardtails anyway.

    The fact that you ask this question means you would keep worrying in the back of your mind anyway. Probably the best thing is to get whatever you are comfortable with - it is a toy after all.

  10. #35
    Fat Skis/Fat Tires
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan51
    Sounds like you're looking at a Remedy.
    2010/2011 Enduro actually Dan.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    I am not sure I understand how those two properties are related. If you like plush - you can get a coil shock and a plush fork (I really like Wotan for that, and also Van36) and suspension that does not need much of a "platform". I just turn pro-pedal completely off on DHX coil and do not care about a little bob. 6" carbon frames are quite thick, not like they are pliant to the level of 1kg weenie hardtails anyway.

    The fact that you ask this question means you would keep worrying in the back of your mind anyway. Probably the best thing is to get whatever you are comfortable with - it is a toy after all.
    Jeeze, focus on the question: is carbon's susceptibility to impacts enough of an issue to rule it out as a 6" trail bike.

    I am already on a 6" enduro and ride it like a cross country bike, which is how I'll be riding his new bike. I like the vibration dampening and stiffness that carbon offers. My monkeylite DH bar was a noticeable improvement over the stock aluminum bar.

  12. #37
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    that seemed really nasty -- go to the niner site and see the impact video that was posted earlier on this thread - call specialized, call a friend but you should not be so nasty -- to Curmy
    Jt

    Here are a few Video Trail Guides I shot - just for fun:
    http://destinationproductions.com/cu...PassionTrails/

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Castigador
    2010/2011 Enduro actually Dan.

    Check into Specialized's warranty. I've heard they've gone to 1 year warranty on swing arm's. I've also heard a few horror stories about Specialized business practices when it comes to warranty lately. This would concern me since I broke every model of Enduro I owned from 2000 to 2006 when I finally gave up on them
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  14. #39
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    Aluminum is well-known to have a finite fatigue life. Fatigue is tested by rigging an object of a given material (handlebar, bike frame, etc.) onto a jig that subjects it to cyclical stresses until it fails.

    A specific example would be the head tube test, whereby the jig connects to the bike like a fork's steerer tube and flexes back and forth until something breaks. Aluminum bikes ALWAYS break, eventually. ALWAYS. It's just a question of how many fatigue cycles the aluminum will survive.

    A lower fatigue load relative to the strength (beefiness) of the frame will increase the number of fatigue cycles to make a frame last long enough for the majority of riders, but given enough use, every aluminum frame will eventually fail. This has been demonstrated over and over and over. It's This is the definition of "finite fatigue life," and aluminum's eventual failure when subjected to cyclical loads is not a quest of "if," but a question of "when."

    Some materials, such as steel, have an infinite fatigue life, which means...
    Continued here: http://marinmtb.com

  15. #40
    aka dan51
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    Mountainbike magazine did a pretty lengthy article on carbon this month.
    http://mountainbike.com/carbon
    Those who know, ride a Mojo AND a Mojo HD.
    Quadzilla
    Quote Originally Posted by benja55
    Ok, whatever, cold water on my bike boner right there.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Castigador
    Lots of interesting perspectives, yet I am not yet convinced either way.

    A little more info:

    I already know which frame I'll be buying, just not the material. The difference in cost between the two materials isn't really that much, and since I've been squirreling money away for a good long while, it's not a concern at all.

    I ABSOLUTELY want additional dampening, even on a 6" bike; I like a lot of squish on the downhills. My only reservation about carbon is its impact resistance. I'm not as concerned about a catastrophic frame failure as I am about it getting smacked by a babyhead, or Chuck knocking it into a granite boulder, and feeling insecure about its integrity thenceforth.

    How much abuse can a carbon frame really take? I'd probably end up putting some of the non-skid looking stuff that comes on the Remedys on the downtube anyway.
    As with all big purchases check references. Talk to people who own the bike you're interested in. Try to find someone who has owned the bike for a long time and ridden it hard. Inspect it and see how it's holding up.

    "beaverbiker" here on mtbr rides the Specialized you're looking at. Go find him.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

    Specialized sucks dong

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Castigador
    Jeeze, focus on the question: is carbon's susceptibility to impacts enough of an issue to rule it out as a 6" trail bike.
    Do you honestly expect a bunch of folks here give you a better answer then bike designers who have decided to build and sell a bunch of carbon 6" trail bikes?

    They believe it is fine and worth the benefits and premium price.

    I believe that there are no real benefits to justify the marketing claims, as suspension design and especially shock choice and tuning are more important - but then I ride a ostensibly terrible, outdated suspension design that is supposed to throw me off on every bump, while the mega buck quadruple link multi squat instant tracking gizmos that are flickable, performance tuned, vertically compliant, simultaneously stiff and pliant depending on your mood and phase of the moon, just pedal themselves to the top while you wait. So what would I know..

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan51
    Mountainbike magazine did a pretty lengthy article on carbon this month.
    http://mountainbike.com/carbon
    if you read the article in the mag itself, they say that for 6" + bikes you would have to singnificantly increase the layup of carbon at the HT to deal wiht the leverage of long travel forks. that would negate any weight savings of carbon and increase cost.

    I personally don't want anything to do with carbon. If you only ride buff trails, then maybe carbon is for you. BUT If you ride hard on rock infested trails, Aluminum will outlast Carbon.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePunisher
    BUT If you ride hard on rock infested trails, Aluminum will outlast Carbon.
    Why is that?

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by diver160651
    that seemed really nasty -- go to the niner site and see the impact video that was posted earlier on this thread - call specialized, call a friend but you should not be so nasty -- to Curmy
    No nastiness inended, just trying to keep the convo focused.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexb650
    Why is that?
    get the latest issue of Mountain Bike and read the article. it's really informative.

    If you really ride hard; sooner or later you will crash. regardless or the bike's material, if you carsh in rocks it will leave a mark. A dent on aluminum to me is less worisome than a chip in carbon.

    if you ride tigh single track with boulders; sooner or later you'll end up catching one of them with your stays.

    Lastly, have you even seen bikes after a full summer of high mountain riding in rocks? the downtube looks like it's been shot by a shot gun (eg many small dings and dents). I've even seen some with big dents near the BB.

    But will get the job done - but I personally feel safer on an Aluminum frame for this particular kind of riding.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePunisher
    get the latest issue of Mountain Bike and read the article. it's really informative.

    If you really ride hard; sooner or later you will crash. regardless or the bike's material, if you carsh in rocks it will leave a mark. A dent on aluminum to me is less worisome than a chip in carbon.

    if you ride tigh single track with boulders; sooner or later you'll end up catching one of them with your stays.

    Lastly, have you even seen bikes after a full summer of high mountain riding in rocks? the downtube looks like it's been shot by a shot gun (eg many small dings and dents). I've even seen some with big dents near the BB.

    But will get the job done - but I personally feel safer on an Aluminum frame for this particular kind of riding.
    I got the new MBA last week and I haven't had a chance to read it yet, so I can't add anything to the article you're referring to.

    I do ride hard and I do crash on occasion but I can't say that I would rather have a dent in AL over a chip in CF. If you dent an AL frame at the top of the down tube and it's creased, the frame is pretty much toast, right? So, on either frame, It would depend on where it was and how severe.

    As to your last point, I do know what you're talking about. Looks like the bike got sprayed on the underside. I don't know enough to say how much that will effect the integrity of a frame--again, it depends on whether it's cosmetic or structural damage.

    I meantioned earlier in this thread that I'm not gung ho for AL or CF and I'm trying to be as impartial as possible. I'm also not a very active member of this site but I decided to chime in because the OP was getting tons of negative feedback about CF from people who have never owned a CF frame and probably never seen one that's broken.

    My advice to the OP, try searching, "carbon frame broke," "carbon frame cracked" or things of the like and see what you find. I went through this before buying a Mojo and I couldn't find enough to suggest that carbon frames are faulty. Or, call your LBS and see how many carbon frames they send out for warranty and for what reasons.

  23. #48
    aka dan51
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexb650
    I got the new MBA last week and I haven't had a chance to read it yet, so I can't add anything to the article you're referring to.
    FYI, it's not in MBA it's in "Mountain Bike".
    Those who know, ride a Mojo AND a Mojo HD.
    Quadzilla
    Quote Originally Posted by benja55
    Ok, whatever, cold water on my bike boner right there.

  24. #49
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    You guys are making me nervous!

    I have Carbon wheels, cranks, seat post, steer tube, crown, bars and frame --

    I'm more of a climber; not a guy who table tops on my way down downyvile - I am fairly light on my gear. I have owned about 8 wheel sets in the last year, the only failures have been free-hubs. . Yet, I have I had 3 al frames fail, two with cracked head tubes and another with a chain stay --

    Everything breaks -- and that bustedcarbon.com thing is kinda funny - maybe all it really shows is that people who purchase carbon items can't drive well.

    When I was a sponsored MotoX guy I had less worry about holding the throttle wide open at the 15 second turn of the board. But before that, it freaked me out because I didn't have the ability to fix the motor cheaply. If you have the cash and body reserves to ride near 100% down the hill, crash and replace gear; it doesn't matter what you run does it?

    Personally, I am much more worried about my broken body than my plastic bike.. I am already sporting an artificial joint and have had to many broken bones to count -- so I always try to ride no more than about 75-80% of max speed, even then skeggs punched me in the ribs a few months ago -- more broken body parts!

    what the hell, get the carbon you'll break first
    Last edited by diver160651; 03-02-2010 at 03:06 PM.
    Jt

    Here are a few Video Trail Guides I shot - just for fun:
    http://destinationproductions.com/cu...PassionTrails/

  25. #50
    I just wanna go fast...
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    You guys are killing me. Pound for pound, carbon is stronger than aluminum.

    If you build up a two identical frames of the same weight, one from carbon and one from aluminum, the carbon frame will be stronger.

    The reason why carbon gets a bad wrap in the bike industry is because lots of frame manufacturers try to build two identical frames of the same strength, but use less material in the carbon frame to make it lighter. I think GT these days has a all carbon DH bike that weighs in the same as an aluminum DH bike and is very durable. Carbon doesn't have to be just for XC frames or short travel forks.

    As far as scratching a carbon frame on rocks, you guys do know the top layer with that cool carbon fiber looking weave is mostly cosmetic right? You actually need to gouge a carbon frame or bars or helmet or whatever pretty deep to make it unsafe.

    All that said, I have no idea if trek, spesh, ibis, SC or any of those other dudes are skimping too much on material just to make the frame lighter and justify the blingin price tag or not.

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