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  1. #1
    NedwannaB
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    Granite Bay trails conditions

    Would it be fair to say that some drivetrain parts replacement will be needed post riding tomorrow?
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  2. #2
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    If it is anything like it was last week it is.. just took a used chain I had and put it on my winter drivetrain hoping that holds things over until I replace parts this Spring.

  3. #3
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    A friend rode it today and said it was horrible. She wished she was with us riding down Flood Trail which was basically a creek. lol

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCWages View Post
    A friend rode it today and said it was horrible. She wished she was with us riding down Flood Trail which was basically a creek. lol
    Thanks. That's what I figured. Haven't ridden the trails up there since the mid 2000's doing the TBF series and recall one of the events had horrendous conditions.
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

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    Quote Originally Posted by JMac47 View Post
    Thanks. That's what I figured. Haven't ridden the trails up there since the mid 2000's doing the TBF series and recall one of the events had horrendous conditions.
    Supposedly a TBF race tomorrow so Granite Beach parkinglot will be closed.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCWages View Post
    Supposedly a TBF race tomorrow so Granite Beach parkinglot will be closed.
    That was my plan, so I would have had parking.
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  7. #7
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    TBF destroying the trails again. Sigh. I always get slammed for complaining about them but they deserve it. In Five yrs of living and riding there they have done the worst damage by far. They were there a few weeks ago the first sunny day after a full three weeks of rain. Disgusting what they did. Worst I have ever seen them.( the trails) I stayed on the DG roads because I didn't want to add to it, there were areas that went 30 feet wide where people were going around a two foot simple little mud puddle. And then there's the trash that they leave behind that they never pick up or the trees that they dragged over certain trails so that riders won't take shortcuts, they never clean up their mess. I don't understand why people give Riders crap for going out and riding right after the rain but they never say anything to these *******s. /endrant lol


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    Quote Originally Posted by dpo View Post
    TBF destroying the trails again. Sigh. I always get slammed for complaining about them but they deserve it. In Five yrs of living and riding there they have done the worst damage by far. They were there a few weeks ago the first sunny day after a full three weeks of rain. Disgusting what they did. Worst I have ever seen them.( the trails) I stayed on the DG roads because I didn't want to add to it, there were areas that went 30 feet wide where people were going around a two foot simple little mud puddle. And then there's the trash that they leave behind that they never pick up or the trees that they dragged over certain trails so that riders won't take shortcuts, they never clean up their mess. I don't understand why people give Riders crap for going out and riding right after the rain but they never say anything to these *******s. /endrant lol


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    I will say the conditions now are the worst I have seen out there. Those trails are getting hammered and sucks they race when it rains.....some of those trails don't drain as well as some say. Not trying to call anyone out but that is how mtbrs loose the battle on trail useage.

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    Just got back from shooting photos as the TBF race . Its HORRIBLE. Huge mud bogs. Tons of people going OTB when misestimating the depth of the mud.

  10. #10
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    Crazy

    Totally crazy to hold a race with the trail conditions the way they are. I just got back from my ride. I stayed off of the trails because of the wet and muddy conditions. I rode the shoreline instead. The North Fork Ditch Trail is blocked from driftwood. Looks like a hurricane came through.

    Granite Bay trails conditions-img_1645.jpgGranite Bay trails conditions-img_1648.jpgGranite Bay trails conditions-img_1646.jpgGranite Bay trails conditions-img_1647.jpgGranite Bay trails conditions-img_1638.jpgGranite Bay trails conditions-img_1649.jpgGranite Bay trails conditions-img_1642.jpg

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphic View Post
    Just got back from shooting photos as the TBF race . Its HORRIBLE. Huge mud bogs. Tons of people going OTB when misestimating the depth of the mud.
    OOOfff...glad I have been skipping TBF races this year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphic View Post
    Just got back from shooting photos as the TBF race . Its HORRIBLE. Huge mud bogs. Tons of people going OTB when misestimating the depth of the mud.
    I think a call to the event coordinator staff at Parks needs to happen. Not cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meSSican View Post
    some of those trails don't drain as well as some say.
    The sandy trails drain amazingly well, it's after the first wet race of the season, when a hundred racers are all on the trail at the same time that the bogs are created. Some of it is due to racers going off course and pushing organic mud onto the sandy trail, clogging the drainage.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCWages View Post
    I think a call to the event coordinator staff at Parks needs to happen. Not cool.
    The sad part is that 2 or 3 guys with shovels could have gone out on Friday afternoon and drained all the really bad parts. But when its gets ridden and ridden and ridden without that simple earth work its creates issues where none need existed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphic View Post
    The sad part is that 2 or 3 guys with shovels could have gone out on Friday afternoon and drained all the really bad parts. But when its gets ridden and ridden and ridden without that simple earth work its creates issues where none need existed.
    Yes! A few fixes BEFORE the event would reduce/eliminate a lot of the issues.

  17. #17
    dpo
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    So would using common sense when scheduling an event. This is twice in a month they held a event the day after 2-3 wks of rain. Assinine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    OOOfff...glad I have been skipping TBF races this year.
    Pardon my ignorance, what does TBF stand for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpo View Post
    So would using common sense when scheduling an event. This is twice in a month they held a event the day after 2-3 wks of rain. Assinine.

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    Scheduling events is one of the hardest tasks in MTB. I get the compulsion not to cancel events. But there really needs to be some effort in responsible trail prep and realistic re-routing when necessary.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwolters View Post
    Pardon my ignorance, what does TBF stand for?
    no problemo...Total Body Fitness...they are a local race organizer group that have been putting on races in GB for a very long time. I've done many, many of them over the years when it's been drier Decided to skip them all this year. Here is their website: TBF Racing

  21. #21
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    The main problem is State Parks. They rubber stamp these events without even reading the permits. I know this because I held permits out there for High School races where we were setting up the race completely different than TBF, I had the permit approved then when I did the site inspection with the State Parks they started freaking out at all the things they had approved in the permit! "We thought you were working with TBF", permit application never said TBF anywhere, State Parks person admitted to me she never read the permit, just approved it. Also, there is no language in the permit addressing foul weather or trail damage mitigation. TBF makes money on these races and puts nothing back to the trails that we all own. We have to fault State Parks, TBF is just following the "rules". We need to get the message to the transition team at State Parks that this needs to change. More importantly, the process to move dirt on trails needs to change.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwolters View Post
    Pardon my ignorance, what does TBF stand for?
    I'm starting to think it's Too Bad ****u

  23. #23
    dpo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silent_G View Post
    The main problem is State Parks. They rubber stamp these events without even reading the permits. I know this because I held permits out there for High School races where we were setting up the race completely different than TBF, I had the permit approved then when I did the site inspection with the State Parks they started freaking out at all the things they had approved in the permit! "We thought you were working with TBF", permit application never said TBF anywhere, State Parks person admitted to me she never read the permit, just approved it. Also, there is no language in the permit addressing foul weather or trail damage mitigation. TBF makes money on these races and puts nothing back to the trails that we all own. We have to fault State Parks, TBF is just following the "rules". We need to get the message to the transition team at State Parks that this needs to change. More importantly, the process to move dirt on trails needs to change.
    Outstanding post. Thank you for your input.

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    Just sent a long email with a link to the photos. Thanks for documenting the damage kind photographer!

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    Your concerns can be sent here- info@parks.ca.gov
    Just be sure to mention it's about Folsom Lake SRA.

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    And now TBF has blocked me on facebook, after having a discussion on the post with these pictures and what appeared to be a decent back and forth. Children.

  27. #27
    dpo
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    TBF may well be following the rules, but I still put some blame on them for a complete lack of awareness for what they are doing out there. Irresponsible.

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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silent_G View Post
    TBF makes money on these races and puts nothing back to the trails that we all own. We have to fault State Parks, TBF is just following the "rules".
    TBF has made donations for improvements to Granite Bay trails, and they want to work on trails but I believe they have the same issue everyone else does, State Parks won't allow volunteers to fix the trails (at no cost).

    Quote Originally Posted by Silent_G View Post
    More importantly, the process to move dirt on trails needs to change.
    Hell to the yes. This is really on State Parks.

    State Parks won't fix the trail issues, and they won't let even trail organizations nor professionals donate their time to fix those spots.

    FATRAC has identified multiple problem areas, documented them, provided solutions, and provided the dollars to fund the solution, and it gets blocked by State Parks every time.

    P

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    I get that part but shouldn't there be a point where the organizers make a responsible call for rescheduling? Those trails are trashed and were trashed prior to the last 2 or three events which all were during or after huge storms. Makes the trails unrideable for the rest of us who don't want to swim in mud pits ruin the trails more.

  31. #31
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    Most of this has been said before, but:

    1) State Parks in Folsom SRA refuses to move forward with trail redesignation, leaving basically one loop for mountain bikers to ride and race at this time of year. So yes that trail is pounded. Four corners, all the short steep sections and a terrible spot in winding woods are just thrashed right now. Primarily from 3 TBF races.

    2) TBF is operating under new state park rules: if it is raining the day of (or the day before) they have to either cancel the race or re route. But strangely enough, three races straight have had a week or more of heavy rain followed by a dry Saturday and Sunday. So TBF is following the new rules... and the new rules haven't helped at all.

    3) State Parks in Folsom makes it nearly impossible to get permission to work on the trails. There are lots of us willing to work and TBF owners are included in that group. It's not fair to claim they do not want to work on the damage.

    4) To be fair, some of the areas will self-repair when the vegetation grows back and/or the lake level rises. But only some.

    I'm going to finish this series but I won't do it next year. Yesterday was fun... and also not fun. The bogs were terrible and it was a mess. And afterwards I spent 2.5 hours disassembling, cleaning, lubing and reassembling all the usual areas. I had tiny gravel and sand inside the caliper bodies. If nothing else these races are going to keep local bike shops busy.

    I get that TBF is a business that provides local races for our growing high school teams and local racers. That's good! I also don't know their financial situation but expecting them to cancel, re schedule or re route races more than "once in a while" probably won't work for them.

    I suppose if we're going to have wet winters and those trails are the only ones available maybe they "should" do away with the mountain bike races Jan - Mar and focus on more races the rest of the year and more running/jogging events this time of year. However, they would be sacrificing profit (for goodwill?) which is a tough business decision especially when they are technically doing nothing wrong.

  32. #32
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    Here's an idea. One weekend last summer I was driving around the hwy 89 in the Emerald Bay area. There was a running relay race going on; the organizers had volunteers doing laps driving slowly on the roadway to keep the traffic flow slow and the runners safe. Kinda a pain in the ass at the time, but very effective and safe.

    Not sure if others are allowed on the trail during the races (share the trails ?), but if they are, perhaps on the days that the trails are in danger of getting thrashed a posse of sorts could be doing a well organized leisure ride in multiple groups to slow things down.. Given, this would piss off the racer and organizers, but maybe, just maybe, TBF and the racers may get the idea that they do not own the trails and others deeply care about the damage being done.

    TBF financials are just not that important or is the egos/needs of the racers. They need to bite the bullet and suck up the monetary losses when the "Business Climate" does not permit the operation of their business. - Rant over and out

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthSideOf50 View Post
    Here's an idea. One weekend last summer I was driving around the hwy 89 in the Emerald Bay area. There was a running relay race going on; the organizers had volunteers doing laps driving slowly on the roadway to keep the traffic flow slow and the runners safe. Kinda a pain in the ass at the time, but very effective and safe.

    Not sure if others are allowed on the trail during the races (share the trails ?), but if they are, perhaps on the days that the trails are in danger of getting thrashed a posse of sorts could be doing a well organized leisure ride in multiple groups to slow things down.. Given, this would piss off the racer and organizers, but maybe, just maybe, TBF and the racers may get the idea that they do not own the trails and others deeply care about the damage being done.

    TBF financials are just not that important or is the egos/needs of the racers. They need to bite the bullet and suck up the monetary losses when the "Business Climate" does not permit the operation of their business. - Rant over and out
    Hey there's an idea. ;/
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwolters View Post
    Pardon my ignorance, what does TBF stand for?
    Trail Be Fhucked
    Every trails a flow trail ifya would just learn how to ride-stop dumbing down the planet

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silent_G View Post
    The main problem is State Parks.... Also, there is no language in the permit addressing foul weather or trail damage mitigation. TBF makes money on these races and puts nothing back to the trails that we all own. We have to fault State Parks, TBF is just following the "rules". We need to get the message to the transition team at State Parks that this needs to change. More importantly, the process to move dirt on trails needs to change.
    State parks is obviously, objectively, FUBAR.

    This fact DOES NOT exempt Trails Be Fhucked from blame!

    THEY are the ones holding private events on public land for profit; with zero phucks given for the consequence(s).

    Not mentioned? The riders partaking. I dont have any personal friends racing the series this year (that I know of). We need more self policing in the sport, no doubt.
    Every trails a flow trail ifya would just learn how to ride-stop dumbing down the planet

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthSideOf50 View Post
    Here's an idea. ... could be doing a well organized leisure ride in multiple groups to slow things down.. Given, this would piss off the racer and organizers, but maybe, just maybe, TBF and the racers may get the idea that they do not own the trails and others deeply care about the damage being done.

    TBF financials are just not that important or is the egos/needs of the racers. They need to bite the bullet and suck up the monetary losses when the "Business Climate" does not permit the operation of their business. - Rant over and out


    Im all for a self policing and vigilante justice of sorts!
    Every trails a flow trail ifya would just learn how to ride-stop dumbing down the planet

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by meSSican View Post
    Thanks for sharing those Karma in Action!!

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P View Post
    TBF has made donations for improvements to Granite Bay trails, and they want to work on trails but I believe they have the same issue everyone else does, State Parks won't allow volunteers to fix the trails (at no cost).


    Hell to the yes. This is really on State Parks.

    State Parks won't fix the trail issues, and they won't let even trail organizations nor professionals donate their time to fix those spots.

    FATRAC has identified multiple problem areas, documented them, provided solutions, and provided the dollars to fund the solution, and it gets blocked by State Parks every time.

    P
    No, this is not only on the state parks.

    They might not allow the trail work to happen, but TBF is still running the races. If TBF actually believed in cycling ethics, they would cancel or postpone these events.

    Awesome precedent to set for the high school teams too.
    "When life gives you lemons...say f@%k it, and bail"

  39. #39
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    Throwback Tuesday - 2008:Granite Bay trails need your love.

    Like swallows returning to San Juan Capistrano, it must be TBF sucks time again

    Even though the trail gets "trashed" every year multiple times, people still love riding Granite Bay... and then go bananas when it gets trashed again the next winter. But with no real trail maintenance since about 2009 (other than the rock work on Dotons last year), how does that place survive and remain popular, only to have the trails ruined every TBF race season, after they were dialed in all Summer and Fall?

    Let's face it, GB is ever changing... as are most trails. Especially this Winter. I look forward to seeing what that mud pit area looks like in June... then in October. Then I'll get pissed when it is ruined next year from mt. bike racers with no conscience and greedy race promoters.

    And there better not be wet conditions and a big mud pit at Cool this year unless Victory Velo is going to pay to fix those trails afterwards!

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    I still can't wrap my head around why TBF gets a pass on this. Recurring theme or not...why is this accepted by you?
    "When life gives you lemons...say f@%k it, and bail"

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    It is what it is. They provide a service that makes people happy and healthy. They are arguably a successful small business, going on 25+ years. The muddy races make local bike shops money. They generate revenue for FLSRA. I really don't worry about these decomposed granite trails too much, even though I'd love to be able to repair and maintain them (to help keep them more narrow). They survive year in and year out, always changing a bit. The failure to keep them as close to the same every year falls on State Parks and their blatant refusal to work with FATRAC. I've said it before, even if there was no race there on Sunday, the amount of people showing up to ride GB would have created a similar mud pit. There have been no races on Culvert Trail in Auburn, but everything I read on here or on FB says it is completely trashed from weather and riders. The unsightly trashed portions of Browns Ravine between Dike 8 and the Marina don't get any significant maintenance, but somehow they heal once the rain stops and plenty of tires and shoes smooth it out, while grasses re-grow to narrow wide winter spots. I'm almost always surprised to see something different at GB (I don't ride there that often), but that's just what the trail has become at that time. In another year, it'll be different again.

    TBF gets a pass from State Parks because mt. bike racing is an appropriate use of the park and either State Parks doesn't care about the impacts or they have deemed it acceptable because of the non-clay soil. I want to believe it is the latter, but I sense its the former. They do have plans to re-route a bunch of sections, and who knows when they'll ever get to that, but if that ever happens, it'll be interesting how they manage bike racing out there.

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    I could draw up a whole argument here, but in the end I think it comes down to you seeing TBF as part of the solution (people on bikes, successful local business) whereas I see them as part of the problem (flaunting accepted ethics, setting a poor example). I doubt we'll change each other's mind.
    "When life gives you lemons...say f@%k it, and bail"

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P View Post
    TBF has made donations for improvements to Granite Bay trails, and they want to work on trails but I believe they have the same issue everyone else does, State Parks won't allow volunteers to fix the trails (at no cost).


    Hell to the yes. This is really on State Parks.

    State Parks won't fix the trail issues, and they won't let even trail organizations nor professionals donate their time to fix those spots.

    FATRAC has identified multiple problem areas, documented them, provided solutions, and provided the dollars to fund the solution, and it gets blocked by State Parks every time.

    P
    Wierd because there are all kinds of areas with new railroad tie steps.
    All out of S**** and down to my last F***

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    You're probably right about changing minds. TBF makes $ providing a service that many people pay for and enjoy, and State Parks allows them to do it (while taking $ themselves via permit fees and parking fees). I don't feel TBF is ethically obligated to tell State Parks how to run their trail system or cancel their own races to "save the trails". I know they ask for trail repairs, but it falls on deaf ears.

    If you want to question TBF's ethics, you probably need to question the ethics of every friend of yours who might have posted muddy photos of their ride last weekend on MTBR, FB, IG, etc.

    Like I said, it is what it is. One could say we are all part of the ethical problem... but I think we should really evaluate if its an actual problem or a temporary issue that often times resolves itself with more use and spring/summer growth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    Throwback Tuesday - 2008:Granite Bay trails need your love.

    Like swallows returning to San Juan Capistrano, it must be TBF sucks time again

    Even though the trail gets "trashed" every year multiple times, people still love riding Granite Bay... and then go bananas when it gets trashed again the next winter. But with no real trail maintenance since about 2009 (other than the rock work on Dotons last year), how does that place survive and remain popular, only to have the trails ruined every TBF race season, after they were dialed in all Summer and Fall?

    Let's face it, GB is ever changing... as are most trails. Especially this Winter. I look forward to seeing what that mud pit area looks like in June... then in October. Then I'll get pissed when it is ruined next year from mt. bike racers with no conscience and greedy race promoters.

    And there better not be wet conditions and a big mud pit at Cool this year unless Victory Velo is going to pay to fix those trails afterwards!
    Comparing the trail system affected by the Cool Race put on by Victory to the damage done at Granite Bay by TBF is intellectually dishonest, you can do better than that. Graded roads and decomposed granite single track should not be discussed in the same context as far as damage done and the requirements to fix them.

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    I was joking about the famous and celebrated mud pit near the finish... along with a reference to the 2009(?) Coolest Race Against Cancer mud fest that caused Jimmy so many problems due to equestrians complaining about the damage bikes did to those fire roads

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonmason View Post

    ...Awesome precedent to set for the high school teams too.


    Ive posed this question before, and never did get anyone to justify/explain it.

    Maybe this time? lol
    Every trails a flow trail ifya would just learn how to ride-stop dumbing down the planet

  48. #48
    mtb'er
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanxj View Post
    Ive posed this question before, and never did get anyone to justify/explain it.

    Maybe this time? lol
    NorCal League has cancelled races due to wet conditions, but not at GB.

    Cycling Development (umbrella for 7 high school teams and about 70 kids) discouraged their athletes and coaches from participating in Sunday's race due to conditions.

    What are all you highest standard riders doing to set a good example for high school riders? They already are forbidden to poach. They have not been able to train on dirt much this season. They get trail etiquette rules drilled into their heads. They are required to do community service. And they'd show up to more trail maintenance days if there were some. A couple years ago they built a mile of sweet new trail for Placer Land Trust.

    Quite frankly, the high school kids are setting the example for our mountain biking community.

  49. #49
    Lurkers Union - Local 916
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    I've said it before, even if there was no race there on Sunday, the amount of people showing up to ride GB would have created a similar mud pit.
    I'll believe this when I see data. How many people race at these events? Do you honestly believe the number of recreational riders = racers? I have never seen as many rec riders out there as there are racers when there is an event. You made the claim therefore the onus is on you to prove it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    You're probably right about changing minds. TBF makes $ providing a service that many people pay for and enjoy, and State Parks allows them to do it (while taking $ themselves via permit fees and parking fees). I don't feel TBF is ethically obligated to tell State Parks how to run their trail system or cancel their own races to "save the trails".
    Yes, heaven forbid they take responsibility for the resource (OUR public lands) they make money off of. And hello? Stewardship is a thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    If you want to question TBF's ethics, you probably need to question the ethics of every friend of yours who might have posted muddy photos of their ride last weekend on MTBR, FB, IG, etc.

    Like I said, it is what it is. One could say we are all part of the ethical problem... but I think we should really evaluate if its an actual problem or a temporary issue that often times resolves itself with more use and spring/summer growth.
    Checks feeds. Nope, none of my riding buddies are riding lately. They get it.

    If these things "often resolve themselves" then why do trails and areas get closed for rehabilitation? Because that's what I fear will happen here. These trails will end up getting closed because of lack of maintenance. You can point the finger at the Parks all you want, but the facts are they need maintenance because of the abuse.

    If this stuff is sanctioned and approved by FATRAC that's something I need to consider next time my membership is up. That fact that this activity is directly in conflict with our parent organization's guidelines is damning enough.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    Quite frankly, the high school kids are setting the example for our mountain biking community.
    Thank you for pointing this out. The High School MTB teams have spent most of this seasons rides on the pavement, in order to protect local trails. The TBF race was scheduled for HSMTB teams as a "practice race", but was cancelled after some coaches went and surveyed GB conditions on Saturday.

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    NorCal League has cancelled races due to wet conditions, but not at GB.

    Cycling Development (umbrella for 7 high school teams and about 70 kids) discouraged their athletes and coaches from participating in Sunday's race due to conditions.

    What are all you highest standard riders doing to set a good example for high school riders? They already are forbidden to poach. They have not been able to train on dirt much this season. They get trail etiquette rules drilled into their heads. They are required to do community service. And they'd show up to more trail maintenance days if there were some. A couple years ago they built a mile of sweet new trail for Placer Land Trust.

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