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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphic View Post
    The rain route looks like a road criterium course. Any reason not to ride a road bike?


    That's another topic in itself now, how many roadie/cx bikes will show up...

  2. #102
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    [QUOTE=Empty_Beer;13051763]So who has spoken with State Parks about this in the past week in search of answers and action? Who has spoken with TBF, asking them to stick to the [URL="http://totalbodyfitness.com/site/course
    I contacted state parks. They replied by stating that they have received numerous complaints about the trail conditions, and they will be reviewing their rain policy for races due to the abnormally wet season.

  3. #103
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    I'm impressed people went to the source! Nice job! Keep up the dialogue and regularly inquire about trail repairs and maintenance. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

    With policy review, I wonder if we'll start seeing wet conditions/trail closure regulations (which are not uncommon in other parks) in FLSRA someday. Seems pointless with the lack of clay in our trail soils, but it would make some people happy

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphic View Post
    The rain route looks like a road criterium course. Any reason not to ride a road bike?
    It looks like mostly Park Road with a mile or two of sandy/gravel paths that are parallel to it. I'm gonna check it out Thursday or Friday afternoon and see if I can figure it out before race day.

    The sandy/gravel portions would be non road-bike friendly but very cross bike friendly imo.

    UPDATE: TBF posted on Facebook that "road bikes and cyclocross bikes will not be allowed for this Sunday."
    Last edited by markm62; 4 Weeks Ago at 08:16 PM. Reason: Updated Info

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm62 View Post
    UPDATE: TBF posted on Facebook that "road bikes and cyclocross bikes will not be allowed for this Sunday."
    ^That is kinda funny because you can use a 'cross bike on their regular non-rain venues if you wanted.

    (not that I'll be racing, but just saying)

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm62 View Post
    ....
    UPDATE: TBF posted on Facebook that "road bikes and cyclocross bikes will not be allowed for this Sunday."
    Thanks to TBF for doing the right thing

  7. #107
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    110 people raced TBF's rain course today. Looks like about 35 of them up uploaded to Strava (31%.... 10% more than the last TBF race).

    Meanwhile, 42 people uploaded their GB ride on the normal trails on Strava today. If these riders represent 31% of all people who rode GB's trails, then about 135 people were "destroying" GB trails today.

    TBF's the problem???


  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    110 people raced TBF's rain course today. Looks like about 35 of them up uploaded to Strava (31%.... 10% more than the last TBF race).

    Meanwhile, 42 people uploaded their GB ride on the normal trails on Strava today. If these riders represent 31% of all people who rode GB's trails, then about 135 people were "destroying" GB trails today.

    TBF's the problem???

    how many from the 42 were residual TBF racers out putting in more pedal time? If its 42 different riders whats the count or avg for each sunny sunday? The races attract non-race riders cheering on, organizing. Plus your regular contingent of weekend warriors. Not taking sides here, just offering another viewpoint based on those numbers. In the grand scheme of things its not that big a number, 42.

    Somewhere lost in the thread im sure there is reference (god i hope) about TBF hosting/organizing a trail work day. Or is this FATRACS job? Their website is out of date only shows past events. TBF site shows only upcoming races. I wont ride GB until it dries more after maintenance and after the dust settles (here). If I can help with repairs I will. As long as both orgs have a plan in place for repairs then I have no complaints when they hold races.

  9. #109
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    You're missing the point that the weather held out so they probably didn't have the big mud pits that was what this conversation was really about from my perspective.

    Also in my opinion you can't really compare those numbers as recreational riders (even in groups) don't tend to try to pass each other all that often or cut corners to do so, widening the path from singletrack to the big rutted out sections we have now. At least my crew doesn't ride that way. You get 20 high school kids racing in a group and there is all sorts of that stuff going on. I've seen it. It's part of racing. Combine it with a lot of moisture and the damage is compounded.

    And the oversimplification - "and TBF is the problem?" is not what it's about either. It's a culmination of issues primarily centered on a large number of users (of which the racing is a significant portion) and the inability by those groups to perform in their capacity of stewards due to Parks inaction on maintenance. I have hope that the attention that was drawn to trail conditions/precipitation/user load through our communications with State Parks about this will spur some action on their part to at a minimum pay attention to what they are doing. It seems that it has based on my conversations with them.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by dchester View Post
    Somewhere lost in the thread im sure there is reference (god i hope) about TBF hosting/organizing a trail work day. Or is this FATRACS job?
    It's neither organizations "job" but both have been working with Parks about doing maintenance. I know that FATRAC's efforts at times are solely focused on getting permission to do so. The trail armoring effort out near the point was a project of theirs (and apparently TBF's too?). Granite Bay Trail Restoration Project

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by BStrummin View Post
    It's neither organizations "job"
    Maybe responsibility was the proper term. Either case - as long as there are plans to repair any such damage, from natural cause or other, I'd say there is a strong chance a good size crew is ready to assist.

    This goes for any trail - squeaky wheel gets the grease. Or is it a squeaky headset goes weeks before Darin realizes its not his cables making the noise...

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post

    TBF's the problem???

    I spoke to one of the TBF owners on Friday. He stated there is something in the works to allow trail work to be done soon after each race... involving CCC, Sierra Buttes, FATRAC and TBF. He thought maybe in 2 years it will be implemented. There may be some new "bike legal" sections added as well. They will need input from local mountain bikers for sure.

    I think the "rain route" was a success. Definitely easier for TBF to set up.

    The race was fun even though it was approximately 60/40 pavement to dirt. The dirt was mostly lake bottom with a small section of seldom-ridden singletrack and the western end of Beeks to Dotons singletrack.

    I think all (both?) sides have some valid points regarding trail erosion and damage but I've concluded the Trails Be Fixable regardless of whether the damage is accumulated over years or caused by a race in "too wet" conditions.

  13. #113
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    Unfortunately, Granite Bay has some unique issues that make trail maintenance/building difficult.

    1) Nearly the entire existing system was done without guidance or proper building techniques. It was built connecting ex. user built trails with little thought given to design or sustainability. There was no paperwork, no environmental work, no nothing, just a few old guys out there digging trail in bad places without any supervision. It "might" have been fine if the use was 5-10% of what it is currently.

    2) Because of #1, most of the trail system is really destined to go away. Much of the trail has subsided below the surrounding surface and there is little chance of getting water off without MAJOR dirt work. A new, properly designed trail system is what's really needed. The IMBA trail care crew that visited the park were really speechless in many areas, reroute was the common word that day. When I ride out there, the trailbuilder in me gets very disheartened.

    3) Because of 2, nothing will ever happen. Getting State parks to commit the resources to merely do the paperwork required of this mammoth effort is likely to never happen. I have heard talk of work being done out there for years, nearly decades, yet nothing even budges.

    So while some might adopt the Trails be Fixable logic, really, the chances of that are pretty slim. I hope I'm wrong about the chances for change out there, but it is a project for which State Parks has never really had the willingness or aptitude to make happen, especially in the last 10 years.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    110 people raced TBF's rain course today. Looks like about 35 of them up uploaded to Strava (31%.... 10% more than the last TBF race).

    Meanwhile, 42 people uploaded their GB ride on the normal trails on Strava today. If these riders represent 31% of all people who rode GB's trails, then about 135 people were "destroying" GB trails today.

    TBF's the problem???

    Stop and think about those strava uploads though - while your average rider will be traversing each section of trail likely once over the course of a day's trip, racers are running multiple laps. Not only is their mileage concentrated on specific potions of trail, it occurs in a very short window of time. Simple logic dictates that a greater incidence of travel over a shorter period of time will create a greater impact. I invite you to explain how that would not be the case.

    TBF is the problem in that they present the image that riding in wet conditions is by-and-large acceptable. There very well might be the same exact number of individuals riding in GB on a given wet weekend, but there is a huge difference in perception if that action is presented as sanctioned.
    "When life gives you lemons...say f@%k it, and bail"

  15. #115
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    Darin - 42 is the number of Strava uploads on Sunday (clockwise and counterclockwise riders)... which is likely 20-30% of all recreational riders on Sunday. Do the math. Feel free to cross check riders on Strava, but the non-racing numbers aren't much different than on a non-race Sunday lately.

    Bstrummin- the big mud pits aren't from passing. They are from riders not wanting to get wet or muddy... just like on every trail in the country. If State Parks was worried about trail conditions, I'd expect them to close GB trails to all bikes and horses in wet conditions, just like Hidden Falls does. But due to public complaining, they made TBF run a pavement mtb course while more people actually rode the main trails (assuming my math is somewhat accurate). Reminder: I don't work for TBF and I have not raced a TBF mtb race in over a decade.

    markm62 - interesting. I wonder if FATRAC is in the loop?

    Sean - BAM! Thanks for the historical background and reality reminder! I just can't believe people lose their minds over a decades old clapped out but still the best twisty-turny-climby-descendy-loop in the FLSRA. Greg W. flagged the extensive reroutes 2-3 years ago. The ribbons are still visible if you look. User groups were brought out to see and discuss the reroutes. Greg is apparently retiring again any day now. As you stated, nothing will ever be done as long as certain folks are still running the FLSRA program.

    P.S. Welcome to bird nesting season, everyone! It lasts until September 1st. State Parks will not allow any trail advocacy group to trim back the poison oak and other flora that's about to explode due to all this rain... without reviewing the trail(s) first. They seem to really struggle finding and funding a wildlife biologist to review each trail. So stock up on Technu and other poison oak remedies!

    Oh wow! A California State Park (Millerton SRA) that allows an IMBA chapter to fix storm damaged trail!

    https://www.facebook.com/ccorc/posts/10155051585609334

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonmason View Post
    Stop and think about those strava uploads though - while your average rider will be traversing each section of trail likely once over the course of a day's trip, racers are running multiple laps. Not only is their mileage concentrated on specific potions of trail, it occurs in a very short window of time. Simple logic dictates that a greater incidence of travel over a shorter period of time will create a greater impact. I invite you to explain how that would not be the case.

    TBF is the problem in that they present the image that riding in wet conditions is by-and-large acceptable. There very well might be the same exact number of individuals riding in GB on a given wet weekend, but there is a huge difference in perception if that action is presented as sanctioned.
    I acknowledged more racer "laps" earlier in the thread. I also expressed my opinion that 30-40 individual riders going through and around a mud bog area do the "damage" that stresses people on this thread out. 400 more laps doesn't make the first 40 mud bog avoidance impacts look much different.

    "...but there is a huge difference in perception..."

    Public land use policy shouldn't ever be based on perception. As a mt biker, I trust you understand that. Policy needs to be based on facts, science and as little politics as possible.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    Public land use policy shouldn't ever be based on perception. As a mt biker, I trust you understand that. Policy needs to be based on facts, science and as little politics as possible.
    I completely agree that policy should not be based upon perception and politics, and solely on solid facts and science...but I also realize that while you and I (and many others here) agree with this, we're not the ones making policy. That's why I feel that perception by the general public cannot and should not be ignored.
    "When life gives you lemons...say f@%k it, and bail"

  18. #118
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    Soooo, is Granite Bay still too muddy to ride for an upcoming ride this Thursday/Friday or should I avoid it?

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASiameseCat View Post
    Soooo, is Granite Bay still too muddy to ride for an upcoming ride this Thursday/Friday or should I avoid it?
    Go ride. There will be a few muddy parts and most of the short steep sections are washed out in some form or fashion. Some sections will look different than they did last year... or five years ago... or definitely 50 years ago.

    Soak in Technu 1st!

  20. #120
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    My body is ready for the poison oak.

  21. #121
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    FYI the gate from Cavitt Junior High to the levies and trails was locked today.


  22. #122
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    Was it during school hours?

  23. #123
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    Granite Bay trails conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by mestapho View Post
    FYI the gate from Cavitt Junior High to the levies and trails was locked today.

    From a CD coach:

    "Yeah, they lock it during the day(school hours) to keep people from wandering on to the campus. The day janitor forgot to unlock after school got out. My wife got the night janitor to unlock it this evening. All good"

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    From a CD coach:

    "Yeah, they lock it during the day(school hours) to keep people from wandering on to the campus. The day janitor forgot to unlock after school got out. My wife got the night janitor to unlock it this evening. All good"
    Thanks Jeff

  25. #125
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    Some of the trails sure were beat up. Jedi looked like a whole different trail and all the old ruts are much deeper now. I just cleaned my DT Swiss ratchets not too long ago and it already needs another cleaning after one ride at GB haha.

  26. #126
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    ^ Why were you riding GB in such poor conditions and destroying the trails?


  27. #127
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    Buddy and I rode Sunday am. I didn't know TBF was going to be there but I guess I should have checked or just assumed. Still lots of muddy crossings and some very wide sections of trail. Some really deep ruts too - like a couple seemed almost 2' deep. Tree down on the lower section below four corners. Lots of very friendly (not at all) spandex. When I'm keeping up with you, you don't need to yell BIKE BIKE BIKE at me. Just sayin.

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