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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by BStrummin View Post
    If this stuff is sanctioned and approved by FATRAC ....That fact that this activity is directly in conflict with our parent organization's guidelines is damning enough.

    FATRAC has ZERO authority on what goes on re: TBF and State Parks permitting. This should be pretty obvious. If FATRAC cant get permission to cut back poison oak at GB(true story), ya think they have the power to sanction a race? Fuhgetaboutit

    As I understand it, FATRAC does not wish to be the 'trail police'of the region; theres little upside, if any, to that and it is, in my opinion, not the mission of the organization. I personally would not want my local club to tell people what how when where to ride.

    To their credit, TBF has indeed made financial contributions toward trail work, has rallied volunteers, and provided post work day grub and drinks on the rare occasion work has been officially allowed.
    Every trails a flow trail ifya would just learn how to ride-stop dumbing down the planet

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    What are all you highest standard riders doing to set a good example for high school riders? They already are forbidden to poach. They have not been able to train on dirt much this season. They get trail etiquette rules drilled into their heads. They are required to do community service. And they'd show up to more trail maintenance days if there were some. A couple years ago they built a mile of sweet new trail for Placer Land Trust.

    Quite frankly, the high school kids are setting the example for our mountain biking community.
    As they should, they should be taught the rules which apparently they are and holding to them. Yes we're all going to stray and explore as we get older. Slippery slope.

    Hell I don't know, it's all really bad right now regardless of conditions, horsies, access. I would love to take a trip somewhere dry right about now.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    NorCal League has cancelled races due to wet conditions, but not at GB.

    Cycling Development (umbrella for 7 high school teams and about 70 kids) discouraged their athletes and coaches from participating in Sunday's race due to conditions.

    What are all you highest standard riders doing to set a good example for high school riders? They already are forbidden to poach. They have not been able to train on dirt much this season. They get trail etiquette rules drilled into their heads. They are required to do community service. And they'd show up to more trail maintenance days if there were some. A couple years ago they built a mile of sweet new trail for Placer Land Trust.

    Quite frankly, the high school kids are setting the example for our mountain biking community.
    The Woodcreek Oaks Team (like the WHOLE team) was out doing laps on Stagecoach Trail this Saturday to keep up on their training. They stayed off the wet trails and each time we observed them riding by hikers and other riders they were super polite and I could hear coaches barking orders related to trail etiquette. #doingitright

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    I was joking about the famous and celebrated mud pit near the finish... along with a reference to the 2009(?) Coolest Race Against Cancer mud fest that caused Jimmy so many problems due to equestrians complaining about the damage bikes did to those fire roads
    I set that course and raced it as well. Those were legitimate gripes against Jim with regards to some of those trails. There were no complaints regarding the roads, but we were on social/ non system trails and they were in fact damaged.
    State Parks dropped the hammer on Jim and that was the end of it.
    Why is that not the case with TBF?
    We (the original Cool Race) operated under some weather restrictions in what trails I could use. Dry, I got to use some trail. Wet, not so much.
    Why does TBF have no such restrictions.
    A day of sunny weather prior to a race is fine in April or May. In January/February it's ridicules.

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  5. #55
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    Creating early season race routes in GB that only hit the lower spots that will be inundated by Folsom Lake at some point, along with fire roads seems do-able. If it's much shorter then add laps.

    The "fun" areas would be mostly off-limits, making the race less interesting and technical, but at least the early races could occur without so much damage.

    Clearly it won't make everyone happy but I think it is feasible. Thoughts?

    They already have an alternate route mapped out in case State Parks enforces the new rules re rain... so maybe just go with that next year.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm62 View Post
    Creating early season race routes in GB that only hit the lower spots that will be inundated by Folsom Lake at some point, along with fire roads seems do-able. If it's much shorter then add laps.

    ...
    Clearly it won't make everyone happy but I think it is feasible. Thoughts?
    ....

    -Adding laps to any route will only accelerate potential/imminent damage

    -Im fairly inclined to be very against changing the race route in that if racing is going to happen in poor conditions(or at all for that matter), keep it to the same/existing route. Id rather have one fubar section of trail and several, slightly less fubar'd sections.

    -The 'new rules re rain' from Parks is a fuggin joke, assuming what Ive heard is correct - route to be changed to add pavement sections(but not eliminate dirt) if rain is forecasted for the day of the event -IF I heard and recall correctly. A step in the right direction though.

    Even during an average winter, there are mud holes out there that persist for dayyyys after the most recent precipitation.
    Every trails a flow trail ifya would just learn how to ride-stop dumbing down the planet

  7. #57
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    Thanks for the input on FATRAC's position. We met at one of the meetings and I get that there are a mix of people involved. I sometimes forget that some of those folks have a financial stake in this (not necessarily a bad thing) compared to just some guy that rides occasionally like me. I'll try to remember that. And by "sanctioned and approved" I didn't mean to imply control, just that if you're a sponsor (?) and something not good is going on it's kind of your duty to be aware. That's all I was trying to say, and there will be differences of opinion on it for sure.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by BStrummin View Post
    Thanks for the input on FATRAC's position. We met at one of the meetings and I get that there are a mix of people involved. I sometimes forget that some of those folks have a financial stake in this (not necessarily a bad thing) compared to just some guy that rides occasionally like me. I'll try to remember that. And by "sanctioned and approved" I didn't mean to imply control, just that if you're a sponsor (?) and something not good is going on it's kind of your duty to be aware. That's all I was trying to say, and there will be differences of opinion on it for sure.

    Financial stake? Trust you me, aint nobody within FATRAC pulling in $ from anything lol.

    TBF has donated to trail work, and kudos to them for that, but that $ goes to trails, not necessarily FATRAC.

    I wouldnt say FATRAC 'sponsors' the event(s). A partner of TBF yes, but I dont think the club is engaged in what could be considered sponsorship; but even thats open to interpretation based on ones definition...
    Every trails a flow trail ifya would just learn how to ride-stop dumbing down the planet

  9. #59
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    ??? Shop owners? Managers of large well known sporting goods stores? Event organizers? I've met all of those people at FATRAC meetings. My point is, as mentioned above, these races support those businesses, and they have an interest in seeing them succeed. That's all I'm saying.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by BStrummin View Post
    ??? Shop owners? Managers of large well known sporting goods stores? Event organizers? I've met all of those people at FATRAC meetings. My point is, as mentioned above, these races support those businesses, and they have an interest in seeing them succeed. That's all I'm saying.
    Anything FATRAC touches is all about trail ettiquette, trail maintenance and trail building. FATRAC is rarely involved in any event, and only if it benefits trails. For example, FATRAC is a partner with Sac Valley Conservency at Deer Creek Hills, as that keeps the the trails open to riding at Deek Creek Hills. FATRAC might be at another event, but has no part in permits, permissions, etc.

    Any businesses attending FATRAC meetings are interested in quality trails, as that is good for business, and it is the appropriate venue.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by BStrummin View Post
    I'll believe this when I see data. How many people race at these events? Do you honestly believe the number of recreational riders = racers? I have never seen as many rec riders out there as there are racers when there is an event. You made the claim therefore the onus is on you to prove it.
    284 people raced on Sunday, according to the results, resulting in 736 laps.
    59 of those people uploaded their ride to Strava (20.7%... which is a reasonable estimate of the % of mt. bikers who use Strava)

    86 people have ridden from the bench downhill westbound this month and uploaded to Strava (which includes the 59 racers)... which calculates to roughly 409 total people, using the 21% Strava user percentage.... so that's about 125 non-racers using the trails in similar conditions.

    120 people have ridden eastbound up to the bench this month and uploaded to Strava (arguably not racers from Sunday).... which calculates to roughly 574 total people, using the 21% Strava user percentage. That's more than a race brings and all in similar conditions.

    In my opinion, 20-30 riders can turn a drainage crossing a trail into a mud bog. It doesn't take 284 racers to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BStrummin View Post
    Yes, heaven forbid they take responsibility for the resource (OUR public lands) they make money off of. And hello? Stewardship is a thing.
    If these trails were pristine, I'd agree with you 100%. After 25 years of races and every day use, parts of the trail are hammered and parts are perfect... and its a good venue for mt. bike racing, especially for those who don't mind spending time and money replacing trashed bike parts. Note that I haven't raced a TBF bike race in more than 15 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by BStrummin View Post
    Checks feeds. Nope, none of my riding buddies are riding lately. They get it.
    Props to your friends! They won't have to replace any bike parts! Meanwhile the ~171 people who have ridden Salmon Falls this month probably had some fun splashing through the puddles but not really hammering the trail.

    Quote Originally Posted by BStrummin View Post
    If these things "often resolve themselves" then why do trails and areas get closed for rehabilitation? Because that's what I fear will happen here. These trails will end up getting closed because of lack of maintenance. You can point the finger at the Parks all you want, but the facts are they need maintenance because of the abuse.
    I'm trying to think of a trail locally that has been closed for rehabilitation in the last 15 years. Some social trails and shortcuts have been decommissioned at Granite Bay, but not any system trails I can think of. What makes you think State Parks will close a trail for restoration when they don't do anything to maintain or repair their trails, or impose wet conditions closures?

    Quote Originally Posted by BStrummin View Post
    If this stuff is sanctioned and approved by FATRAC that's something I need to consider next time my membership is up. That fact that this activity is directly in conflict with our parent organization's guidelines is damning enough.
    I speak for myself. I'm not a board member of FATRAC or Cycling Dev. I'm just a trail busy-body who doesn't freak out at a mud pit at Granite Bay. If and when State Parks moves forward with the planned re-routes, hopefully the alignments address potential bogs and trail widening... but I could see some policy changes for TBF races by then. Right now it is what it is and it really isn't getting any worse -- just different -- and people still love to race it and ride it in their free time.

    Browns Ravine near MIAD... hammered by wheels, and pedestrians are wearing in a 2nd trail above it. 1/13/13
    Granite Bay trails conditions-img_0121.jpg

    Same spot a month later. Dried up and getting smoother. No trailwork done. Foot path gone. I can't find my 3 months later photo, but you wouldn't know it used to look like the first one.... although I'll bet it looks like that right now (I haven't been on that trail in 2+ months).
    Granite Bay trails conditions-img_0959.jpg

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Allan View Post
    I set that course and raced it as well. Those were legitimate gripes against Jim with regards to some of those trails. There were no complaints regarding the roads, but we were on social/ non system trails and they were in fact damaged.
    State Parks dropped the hammer on Jim and that was the end of it.
    Why is that not the case with TBF?
    We (the original Cool Race) operated under some weather restrictions in what trails I could use. Dry, I got to use some trail. Wet, not so much.
    Why does TBF have no such restrictions.
    A day of sunny weather prior to a race is fine in April or May. In January/February it's ridicules.
    I recall the fire road that runs along the larger pond/lake sorta closer to the start drew lots of complaints from the equestrianS, but I could be wrong.

    I know ASRA and FLSRA seem to run things fairly differently, and I really don't know the answer as to why TBF has free reign, especially when lots of mountain bikers and an insurance salesman named Kevin likely complain to them a lot... but I've never asked. My guess is they enjoy the revenue that the races bring in. Has anyone here ever actually asked State Parks? I don't feel like reading through the dozen or so threads on this topic to see if that's been answered before

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    NorCal League has cancelled races due to wet conditions, but not at GB.

    Cycling Development (umbrella for 7 high school teams and about 70 kids) discouraged their athletes and coaches from participating in Sunday's race due to conditions.

    What are all you highest standard riders doing to set a good example for high school riders? They already are forbidden to poach. They have not been able to train on dirt much this season. They get trail etiquette rules drilled into their heads. They are required to do community service. And they'd show up to more trail maintenance days if there were some. A couple years ago they built a mile of sweet new trail for Placer Land Trust.

    Quite frankly, the high school kids are setting the example for our mountain biking community.
    Kudos to their coaches, seriously. I don't know a lot about the development leagues, but I'm impressed by this.
    "When life gives you lemons...say f@%k it, and bail"

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    I'm trying to think of a trail locally that has been closed for rehabilitation in the last 15 years.....

    Murders Bar in Mammoth OHV has been closed for years now for 'restoration'.

    Grizzly was closed this past summer as well, but Ive heard its open again.

    Shady Trail at Lake Natomas was just shut down a few months ago for 'restoration' (tearing out biker built social trails)


    'Locally', the USFS routinely closes trail systems during the wet months for the purpose of erosion mitigation ie. Rock Creek and Foresthill OHV systems. Obviously a different agency, but just to point out the idea isnt far fetched....



    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    What makes you think State Parks will close a trail for restoration when they don't do anything to maintain or repair their trails, or impose wet conditions closures?

    It makes much more sense for a grotesquely inept bureaucracy in State Parks to abandon trails until they reach a point where they can be shut down altogether. Its alot less worry for them, dontcha think? The case could easily be made they have much more motive to shut down trails than to build/maintain them. I believe their actions support this theory pretty objectively....
    Every trails a flow trail ifya would just learn how to ride-stop dumbing down the planet

  15. #65
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    ^ I'd say OHV trails are managed differently than multi-use and equestrian/pedestrian trails, but that's just my opinion.

    Shutting down a trail in FLSRA has no chance of working. Cyclists are too determined to stay the course (as well as runners and hikers). The paved ARBT under the Orangevale bluffs is without a doubt closed and unrideable... and extremely dangerous. There's 2 more rockfall/landslides since the first one, yet people risk their lives to cross it!

    https://www.strava.com/segments/627770 -- 57 southbound daredevils this month (doesn't count the last week of January)... and if Strava users represent a generous 21% of all riders, possibly 271 people have gone across the debris field.

    https://www.strava.com/segments/5891656 -- 90 northbound daredevils... so possibly 428 total daredevils.


    jasonmason - Cycling Developement is a non-profit that manages 8 local high school MTB programs so kids can do this fun biking stuff. (Teams). Granite Bay HS, Folsom HS, Woodcreek HS and Placer Foothills HS are strong enough on their own (e.g., great adult volunteers) and operate independently. I've been trying to leverage the high school program for expanded access and new trails in FLSRA since 2009, but to no avail. FLSRA is a blackhole when it comes to mountain biking. The kids can get pretty bored with GB after 20 practices there... but it is the closest place that has loops and all levels of riders can hack it.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    jasonmason - Cycling Developement is a non-profit that manages 8 local high school MTB programs so kids can do this fun biking stuff. (Teams). Granite Bay HS, Folsom HS, Woodcreek HS and Placer Foothills HS are strong enough on their own (e.g., great adult volunteers) and operate independently. I've been trying to leverage the high school program for expanded access and new trails in FLSRA since 2009, but to no avail. FLSRA is a blackhole when it comes to mountain biking. The kids can get pretty bored with GB after 20 practices there... but it is the closest place that has loops and all levels of riders can hack it.
    It doesn't get said enough, and I know I'm guilty of that as well. Thank you to yourself, and all the other folks who have a positive influence on the next generation of cyclists.

  17. #67
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    I call BS TBF. Go build some quick bridges out of 2x4 to place over the couple mud holes for the race. Dig tiny water trenches while marking the course to drain puddles. The state won't even know. People can justify it all they want, but when using public lands where people are already trying to drive out mtbing why give them a reason? Seems idiotic to hold a race there with the trails in that condition.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by prozach0215 View Post
    I call BS TBF. Go build some quick bridges out of 2x4 to place over the couple mud holes for the race. Dig tiny water trenches while marking the course to drain puddles. The state won't even know. People can justify it all they want, but when using public lands where people are already trying to drive out mtbing why give them a reason? Seems idiotic to hold a race there with the trails in that condition.
    I think if you had read thru the posts it was mentioned several times that the State will not let TBF(Cal Con Corps maybe but not any private entity I believe) do any alterations to the trail system. Rangers are onsite what makes you think they wouldn't know who had done what you have proposed? Who do you think would be liable for someone's injuries crashing on that temp 2x4 duckboard ramp?

    So much for inquiring about trail conditions up there. My apologies to TBF for the rants and flaming that followed.
    Last edited by JMac47; 02-14-2017 at 09:48 PM. Reason: Typo
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMac47 View Post
    I think if you had read thru the posts it was mentioned several times that the State will not let TBF(Cal Con Corps maybe but not any private entity I believe) do any alterations to the trail system. Rangers are onsite what makes you think they wouldn't know who had done what you have proposed? Who do you think would be liable for someone's injuries crashing on that temp 2x4 duckboard ramp?
    I read it. All tbf cares about is money. Its not their property they don't care if it's destroyed as long as they get their$$$. I have never seen a ranger even once on those trails. They could easily drain most of the water on the course if they cared. Hell, kids have full on dirt jump parks built out there. Pretty sure they don't have approval. The state doesn't even care enough to take them down. On paper, sure the state doesnt want work done, but would they turn a blind eye to someone spending 5 minutes to draining a problem area? I'm sure they would! They sure as shit aren't going to go through any hassle to figure out who did it.

    And for the record I don't care. Trail will repair themselves for the most part. Just think it's silly to not take small steps to not make it worse than it needs to be.
    Last edited by prozach0215; 02-14-2017 at 11:44 PM.

  20. #70
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    ^ I think there were far more trail gnome activities the last couple years vs. this year. Not sure why... we could have used it this season. But still lots of complaining the past couple years.

    One of the better throwback threads : Insurance salesman says "Mountain Bikers Are Destroying Trails In Granite Bay"

  21. #71
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    Mountain bikers going at each other (in a public forum) over one of the few "open" trails is frustrating. A lot of the sentiments expressed here and on Facebook are probably being printed out to be used against ALL local riding by the local anti-bike crowd, which is expanding by the way.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm62 View Post
    Mountain bikers going at each other (in a public forum) over one of the few "open" trails is frustrating. A lot of the sentiments expressed here and on Facebook are probably being printed out to be used against ALL local riding by the local anti-bike crowd, which is expanding by the way.
    Oh no, they might see that some of us ARE concerned about trail damage. Can't see how that would hurt any worse than TBF posting images of the conditions they helped make worse, and then deleting and blocking people (it wasn't just me) asking questions. This is a conversation that needs to be had. The "anti-bikes" folks are probably having it too I would guess. Part of protecting our access includes talking about activities that may be damaging it, and if we don't do it amongst ourselves then the ONLY voices doing it are the outside ones.

    Also Parks is aware of the event and the pictures. According to Rich Preston the permit for the event states that when there is or more rain forecast 24 hours prior to or the day of a mountain bike event it should be canceled. This is going to be "reviewed".

    Again to reiterate I'm not calling for a suspension of all racing out there and I don't think anyone else is, and I certainly have expressed that in my communications with Parks. Just asking for some consideration to take place about trail conditions, and if TBF won't do it then it falls back on the permit approving agency. And who knows, maybe this could help kick start (rehabilitate?) the conversations with Parks about maintenance.

  23. #73
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    Keep in mind that the anti-bike coalition associated with FLSRA (and ASRA) is 95% equestrian, and they don't give a rats arse about trail conditions... because that would be like the pot calling the kettle black. They exclusively play the safety card when it comes to bikes... and expanded access. I can't recall any anti-bike chatter from them in the past few years that even mentions trail damage.

    I wouldn't hold my breath on getting Parks to jump start trail work. Ranger Greg Wells, who has already retired once is apparently about to retire again. Without him and some FATRAC legends like Sean Allan and Jim HS, there might not be GB trails, Sweetwater, Darrington, Connector and FHDL. A Trail Coordinator is supposed to be hired, but who knows when that'll happen.

    I personally think Prozach has the right attitude, but it cannot be TBF doing it as that would risk their entire business. P.S. I'm pro small business... especially businesses that serve the mtb/running/athletic community!

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silent_G View Post
    The main problem is State Parks. They rubber stamp these events without even reading the permits. I know this because I held permits out there for High School races where we were setting up the race completely different than TBF, I had the permit approved then when I did the site inspection with the State Parks they started freaking out at all the things they had approved in the permit! "We thought you were working with TBF", permit application never said TBF anywhere, State Parks person admitted to me she never read the permit, just approved it. Also, there is no language in the permit addressing foul weather or trail damage mitigation. TBF makes money on these races and puts nothing back to the trails that we all own. We have to fault State Parks, TBF is just following the "rules". We need to get the message to the transition team at State Parks that this needs to change. More importantly, the process to move dirt on trails needs to change.
    But TBF will claim they're members of FatTrac so they're involved in trail upkeep. I call BS......I haven't seen anything advertised stating they do trail days. I've been out there after the events to see the trail damage and leftover race garbage. But their are other commercial users that treat the trail the same way.........I think the State Parks needs to look past the $$$$$$$$ sign.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    I personally think Prozach has the right attitude, but it cannot be TBF doing it as that would risk their entire business. P.S. I'm pro small business... especially businesses that serve the mtb/running/athletic community!
    This. Between State Parks ineptitude and TBF's exposure nothing will get done.

    Read between lines. There just needs to be some drainage nicks cut to pull the water off the trail before the race.

    This guy will do it.
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  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P View Post
    This. Between State Parks ineptitude and TBF's exposure nothing will get done.

    Read between lines. There just needs to be some drainage nicks cut to pull the water off the trail before the race.

    This guy will do it.
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    You're absolutely correct. But no matter how committed to a person might be to trail preservation, its awfully tough to give up an afternoon hike with a shovel instead of riding, and risk getting busted by the Rangers, all to make TBFs business run better. Lots of risk and effort for somebody else's payday.

  27. #77
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    ^ There lies the rub.

    Maybe people should be complaining that the trail gnomes aren't doing their jobs!!

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    Hi...I'm late to this thread. I live about 400 yards from the turn that starts Middle Trail at GB. In the Fall I do add a few "trail nicks" in places to aid drainage but I'd like to do a lot more "legal" trail maintenance partnering/volunteering with Fatrac and others to solve the deep ruts at 4 corners, the drop into Beeks Bite parking lot, etc.

    The damage done recently will heal. I was walking my dog on Pioneer Express yesterday and the horses have hammered it as well. Not to say this is all ok but the real solution is for State Parks to allow maintenance to take place.

    As for TBF, they and any promoter are easy targets, especially when conditions turn bad. All users add to the trail wear and as noted in a set of photos previously posted of the other side of the lake, those at GB will look much different once they dry and the spring vegetation grows.

    Cheers!

    PS: With all the rain and the lake filling (later this Spring) I'm predicting a bumper crop of PO and snakes.........
    Team Kinetic Cycles/Fat Bikes Rule!

  29. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbne1 View Post
    As for TBF, they and any promoter are easy targets, especially when conditions turn bad. All users add to the trail wear and as noted in a set of photos previously posted of the other side of the lake, those at GB will look much different once they dry and the spring vegetation grows.
    But not all users make $$$$$ from the usage of the trail. Only the commercial users! That's the rub...........commercial users should be held accountable for mandated trail work. It's not just TBF their are other commercial users that make $$$$$$ from using our trail.

    I agree State Parks stands in the way of groups being more active in maintaining the trail.

  30. #80
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    I talked to Heath S. Yesterday and he filled me in on some of the issues TBF faced from State Parks. It seems like they did try to minimize damage but were forced to stick to the original routes. TBF is an ally to our cause so I'm a bit ashamed I questioned their motives earlier in the thread. Thanks to Patrick, Ryan and others for adding some facts to the thread. I plan on contacting Mark to see how I can help.

    We are gaining more allies in Parks. It's definitely a good time to make contact and offer solutions and assistance.

  31. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCWages View Post
    I talked to Heath S. Yesterday and he filled me in on some of the issues TBF faced from State Parks. It seems like they did try to minimize damage but were forced to stick to the original routes. TBF is an ally to our cause so I'm a bit ashamed I questioned their motives earlier in the thread. Thanks to Patrick, Ryan and others for adding some facts to the thread. I plan on contacting Mark to see how I can help.

    We are gaining more allies in Parks. It's definitely a good time to make contact and offer solutions and assistance.
    So as I understand it -

    1. TBF requested that they be allowed to change the route, due to concerns over trail damage.

    2. The Park said no, they had to stick to their original route.

    3. TBF ran the races without a reroute, cognizant of the trail damage the races would inflict.

    This seems more damning to me than if they hadn't requested a reroute. Please explain to me how this makes them an ally.
    "When life gives you lemons...say f@%k it, and bail"

  32. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker4life View Post
    But not all users make $$$$$ from the usage of the trail. Only the commercial users! That's the rub...........commercial users should be held accountable for mandated trail work. It's not just TBF their are other commercial users that make $$$$$$ from using our trail.

    I agree State Parks stands in the way of groups being more active in maintaining the trail.
    Has anybody ever investigated the financials of the guy that leads horse back rides through GB every day? He takes groups of 5 -10 horses through the trail system every day, regardless of trail conditions. I'm sure he has done far more trail damage than TBF has ever thought of, and has probably made more money, spread out over the year, than TBF.
    If everybody is so anti-capitalist and wants to take down the evil profiteers, how about we start with the people that don't even share our values and hobby?
    Its all Shits and Giggles until somebody Giggles and Shits

  33. #83
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    @jasonmason - Just curious... which organized and permitted trail maintenance days have you participated in since 2010? I kinda want to know if you're new at this or another frazzled veteran.

    @Brewtality: Rack him!

  34. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewtality View Post
    Has anybody ever investigated the financials of the guy that leads horse back rides through GB every day? He takes groups of 5 -10 horses through the trail system every day, regardless of trail conditions. I'm sure he has done far more trail damage than TBF has ever thought of, and has probably made more money, spread out over the year, than TBF.
    If everybody is so anti-capitalist and wants to take down the evil profiteers, how about we start with the people that don't even share our values and hobby?
    Stop deflecting because it's apparent you're a defender TBF for some reason. Your comparison is not valid to what we're talking about.........commercial users. And nobody is against capitalism but being responsible stewards of a trail system weighs heaver on company that is making money off said trail system. For example, every time I ride out there my first lap is a garbage pick up lap...just doing my part.

    The Mtn Bike community will never win against the horse community......so unless you can prove this guy is operating a business without a license then is pointless to bring it up.

  35. #85
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    I just received an email from TBF and they are using their "Rain Course" this Sunday. It encompasses the park roads and the 4x4 trails below that are primarily within the confines of the upper lake bottom. It will be good for the race to stay off the trails to not only let them heal but to reduce the negative press TBF has received especially lately regarding trail damage.
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  36. #86
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    Let's be careful who we malign in these forums. TBF is not the enemy. These circular firing squads are not good for our community.
    Consciousness, that annoying time between bike rides.

  37. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    @jasonmason - Just curious... which organized and permitted trail maintenance days have you participated in since 2010? I kinda want to know if you're new at this or another frazzled veteran.

    @Brewtality: Rack him!
    I only moved up here in late 2012, but took place in the IMBA trailbuilding seminar and rerouting/construction of a portion of the Pioneer trail in 2015. Did some trail work days in SoCal previously with SHARE and the Warrior's Society. I ride more gravel than singletrack these days, but still am happy to help when I can. Been somewhat busy working on trails on my own property of late.

    I don't claim to be anywhere near the trail steward some of you are; I do try to do what I can, when I can. Not every act of trail maintenance/repair is on an organized trail day.

    I don't see how this changes the TBF trail abuse argument.
    "When life gives you lemons...say f@%k it, and bail"

  38. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCWages View Post
    I talked to Heath S. Yesterday and he filled me in on some of the issues TBF faced from State Parks. It seems like they did try to minimize damage but were forced to stick to the original routes. TBF is an ally to our cause so I'm a bit ashamed I questioned their motives earlier in the thread. Thanks to Patrick, Ryan and others for adding some facts to the thread. I plan on contacting Mark to see how I can help.

    We are gaining more allies in Parks. It's definitely a good time to make contact and offer solutions and assistance.
    Heath, my man! Good call JW, its easy to pile on someone. The rain has us all fit to be tied!

  39. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonmason View Post
    So as I understand it -

    1. TBF requested that they be allowed to change the route, due to concerns over trail damage.

    2. The Park said no, they had to stick to their original route.

    3. TBF ran the races without a reroute, cognizant of the trail damage the races would inflict.

    This seems more damning to me than if they hadn't requested a reroute. Please explain to me how this makes them an ally.
    I know...several days late on this...but reading through the thread I too think there is something hinky here. In the breakdown of the actions jasonmason posted, I think there should have been the following:

    ************************************************** **************************
    1. TBF requested that they be allowed to change the route, due to concerns over trail damage.

    2. The Park said no, they had to stick to their original route.

    3. Faced with the confusing refusal by State Parks of their request for reroute, TBF decides running the race would cause too much damage, decides to take the high-ground and acts like good stewards of the land by postponing or cancelling the race (even though it may mean taking a hit in their profit.)
    ************************************************** *************************

    Everyone should be good trail stewards and not ride when they could cause damage...those who are taking advantage of public lands to turn a profit should be held even more accountable. TBF had the chance to do the right thing, in my and others opinion, and they blew it. I think they would have received some major positive public image points/good karma if they had cancelled/postponed the race. It clearly looks like it was profit over stewardship here....I base that statement of seeing this occur year in year out.

    I wish someone from TBF would come in to this thread and plead their case, to let us know if they decided to take the Nuremberg Defense (an order is an order/just following orders) when State Parks stupidly said they could not re-route, or if they just did not give a damn about the trails when considering the potential loss of profits.

    *********************************

    Pissed off trail user: "TBF, why did you still run the race even though you knew it would mess up the trails?"
    TBF: "It was the State Parks! I was just following orders!! I hear nothing, I see nothing, I know nothing!"

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  40. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bokchoicowboy View Post
    Everyone should be good trail stewards and not ride when they could cause damage...those who are taking advantage of public lands to turn a profit should be held even more accountable. TBF had the chance to do the right thing, in my and others opinion, and they blew it. I think they would have received some major positive public image points/good karma if they had cancelled/postponed the race. It clearly looks like it was profit over stewardship here....I base that statement of seeing this occur year in year out.

    I wish someone from TBF would come in to this thread and plead their case, to let us know if they decided to take the Nuremberg Defense (an order is an order/just following orders) when State Parks stupidly said they could not re-route, or if they just did not give a damn about the trails when considering the potential loss of profits.


    I think TBF should NOT come into this thread, but rather TBF join us in a private QA thread, that fc could arrange. We don't need to display dissension in the ranks.

  41. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackies Pasture View Post
    I think TBF should NOT come into this thread, but rather TBF join us in a private QA thread, that fc could arrange. We don't need to display dissension in the ranks.
    Good point...I defer to your wisdom.
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  42. #92
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    Guess what?!

    Its Tuesday, 2/20. about 1.5" rain has dumped on the already saturated Sacramento Valley in the past 48 hours, with more rain forecast for Tues and Weds.....

    Theres a race scheduled for this Sunday, 2/26.

    But, if less than 1/2" rain is forecast for Sat/Sun, State Parks new 'rain rule(s)' will not apply...

    Last edited by ryanxj; 02-21-2017 at 12:19 PM.
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  43. #93
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    So who has spoken with State Parks about this in the past week in search of answers and action? Who has spoken with TBF, asking them to stick to the rain course this weekend?

  44. #94
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    The 2/26 race isn't linked on their TBF "race page" now... although the page still exists. I'm trying to find out if they cancelled it.

    Main race page: Races | TBF Racing

    Race page: MTB Madness Cross-Country Mountain Bike Racing | TBF Racing

    Rain course: http://totalbodyfitness.com/site/cou...ain-course.pdf

  45. #95
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    Yep, as mtbne1 was told the race is on, but definitely will be on the "rain course" on Feb. 26.

  46. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    So who has spoken with State Parks about this in the past week in search of answers and action? Who has spoken with TBF, asking them to stick to the rain course this weekend?
    I have spoken with Parks, apparently several others have also. They are going to be "reviewing" the rain rule. Also I made a request via the California Public Records Act and now have a copy of their race permit. Nothing new in it and the rain language is on the first page, underlined and bolded: If a 1/2" inch of rain is forecasted 24 hours prior to the event or the day of the event, the event shall be cancelled.

    I think I can legally post it to dropbox but I don't know that I need to. If someone wants to see it pm me.

    TBF blocked me on fb just for asking questions that I thought were pretty reasonable, so good luck there.

    Also where did this "they asked to reroute" thing come in? Parks has not mentioned that in my communications with them. Some verification on that would be good.

  47. #97
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    GB is definitely going to be getting >1/2" before race time on Sunday according to CNRFC - California Nevada River Forecast Center (which I use as a professional and is pretty accurate).

  48. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by BStrummin View Post
    ...Also where did this "they asked to reroute" thing come in? Parks has not mentioned that in my communications with them. Some verification on that would be good.
    I paraphrased it from the post by JCWages regarding his discussion with a Heath S., which is as follows:

    "I talked to Heath S. Yesterday and he filled me in on some of the issues TBF faced from State Parks. It seems like they did try to minimize damage but were forced to stick to the original routes..."

    That indicates that a re-route was desired, otherwise sticking to the original routes wouldn't have any relevance. It certainly implies there was a conversation regarding routing, and that the State parks was the sticking point. JCWages did not follow up to contradict any of that, and others proceeded with that supposition, so I assume it was correct.
    "When life gives you lemons...say f@%k it, and bail"

  49. #99
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    The rain route looks like a road criterium course. Any reason not to ride a road bike?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonmason View Post
    I paraphrased it from the post by JCWages regarding his discussion with a Heath S., which is as follows:

    "I talked to Heath S. Yesterday and he filled me in on some of the issues TBF faced from State Parks. It seems like they did try to minimize damage but were forced to stick to the original routes..."

    That indicates that a re-route was desired, otherwise sticking to the original routes wouldn't have any relevance. It certainly implies there was a conversation regarding routing, and that the State parks was the sticking point. JCWages did not follow up to contradict any of that, and others proceeded with that supposition, so I assume it was correct.
    Oh yeah, sorry, that was lazy of me. I need more coffee.

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