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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by emjayel View Post
    Okay, here are some of the posts and videos that, in my opinion, are inflammatory and disingenuous, and do not put forth our best efforts but instead give the opposition more reason to dislike us.

    Post #2, Larry 'losing his mind'. Yeah, he's being dumb and using something that happened 15 years ago, once, to make a point...and clearly he's lying about his mtbiking prowess, but 'losing his mind'? No, don't see that at all. He's not ranting or being belligerent or yelling.

    Post #9, Jean threatening 'to destroy bench' in 'her' Meadow and 'threatens to vandalize...' She doesn't say it's her Meadow...doesn't even insinuate it that I could tell...and she threatens to remove it, not destroy or vandalize. While some would contend it's paramount to the same thing, the choice of words like vandalize and destroy are being used deliberately to inflame the situation.

    Post #22, Connie. She's the biggest bike hater in 'North America, possibly the world'. How is that NOT inflammatory? Additionally, the post suggests that Connie is using the term 'white guys' in a way that's elitist (at the least), and then builds on that statement to say she is a vampire and will be at your funeral (I assume to dance on my grave?). Well, she didn't say those words! She was quoting Mark Eller of IMBA. See article here: https://www.imba.com/blog/mark-eller...-eating-itself. So, here again, the post seems to be quite inflammatory and disingenuous.

    Post #23, Connie on ADA and Ebikes. Post states 'Connie attacks ...' And the title of the video is, in part, '...does not want Ebikes for disable...' I don't actually hear her say disabled people (though I'll admit she's rambling and not very coherent). If she means disabled people then I think she voices a concern that people are going to take advantage of the ADA allowance (’unqualified people' in her parlance) to ride Ebikes on the trails. Can't fault this thinking, and she's certainly not attacking ADA people. She's attacking liars and cheats of the ADA system...and they need to be called out!

    Post #38, Linda '...makes scathing anti-bike comments...' And 'advocates for a better reporting system'. Where is the scathing anit-bike comment? She is calm and cool and unthreatening. She doesn't want illegal trails to be built or rebuilt (gee, that seems fairly reasonable....and even if not, it's certainly not 'scathing' and 'anti-bike'). She wants the board to let the public know how to use the online reporting mechanism and that they (the board) want the public input. I don't hear her say she wants a 'better reporting system'. Again, the uses of 'scathing anti-bike' and 'advocate for a better reporting system' are clearly overstating the reality of what she says and, in the case of the better reporting system, just a misrepresentation of the facts.

    Page two, Post #8, Barbara 'flaunting the fact that her organization will sue..' and 'dropping the hammer'. I've listened to the video 8 times and still don't hear her ever say the word 'sue'. Please tell me where she says it. So there's no 'hammer dropping' and no threats of filing suit. Just more inflammatory video titles and commentary.

    Page two, Post #29, Linda's letter, post states the 'letter is threatening' and video title reads '...2nd threat of lawsuit'. I've read the letter. There's no threat of a lawsuit. There are no threats in the letter nor in the video. There are requests and suggestions, but no threats and the words sue and lawsuit are never used or uttered. So, more inflammatory verbiage use by the poster.

    That's it, I can't go on. I think there is at least one more, but I think, even if you don't agree with all of my observations, it's hard to deny that enough of them hold water to prove my point.
    LOL, Mike! Your well-written and thoughtful points are WAY too on-point for this board! You'd have better luck bringing reason and logic into a Trump rally! Take your moderation somewhere else--this ain't the place for it.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by rk_parker View Post
    LOL, Mike! Your well-written and thoughtful points are WAY too on-point for this board! You'd have better luck bringing reason and logic into a Trump rally! Take your moderation somewhere else--this ain't the place for it.
    Wow you've been a member of MTBR for 26 minutes and this is your first post?

    FYI I started with the introduction forum. It makes you seem like less of a troll. Because a roadie from SC barking about MTB politics in Marin County is well, not classy.

    Also serious question: do you really feel the MCL, Footpeople and MAS would work with the cycling community?

    Have you read their letters?

    At what point do we move on and marginalize groups who are 100% opposed to change?

    And by change I mean change the fact 94% of trails are currently off limits for bikes. That's about 30 miles of bike legal trail out of over 350, if you cared.

    But it's fairly obvious you don't.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    So today I'll just address one of the issues you mention:

    Lack of notice on the RTMP.

    These issues have been vetted since 2009 and all of the videos you call inflammatory are the comments being made on the RTMP process. I've only recorded what they have been saying for about a year. Because it's been so insane lately.

    This is year 7 of the process and I've been attending meetings for all 7 of those years to attempt to drown out the chorus of bike hatred flowing from the 4-6 members of the Footpeople.

    Honestly your post is so ill informed that I'm not certain it is worth addressing your concerns about inflammatory language.

    In fact one much more level headed off road cycling advocate than myself called the 3 letters the "nuclear option." Meaning that the 3 groups have really screwed themselves.

    I hope the groups who wrote the 3 letters are as ignored by govt going forward as you sir are as ignorant of the history and issues regarding this matter.

    A history that is over 30 years old....
    Wow, I had no idea so spiteful a campaign has been going on for so long from Footpeople and their cohorts!

    I bet if I was still fighting the same fight after 7 years and had to deal with these folks for so long with seemingly little end in sight, I might get bitter and upset enough to start posting videos with descriptions like we have here as well.

    When I first read this thread, without understanding the background, it just comes across as somewhat radicalized and slightly crazy. And, in the face of that, my thinking was that perhaps if we were to seem the less crazy of the two camps in the room, that our point of view and requests/suggestions might carry more weight with the governing bodies.

    Sounds like that time may have come and gone and it's far too late to try and find a middle ground in Marin.

    I appreciate you hearing me out, Davey, and responding with civility to my 'uninformed observations'. I do hope you understand that I'm not criticizing the fight you and yours are crusading. On that point I am very much in agreement with you. I was ONLY trying to shed light on some of the tactics being used in this thread and how it could be damaging to the cause rather than contributing to its success.

    Sorry for the intrusion into your campaign. Soldier on!
    Cheers!
    Mike
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    Wow you've been a member of MTBR for 26 minutes and this is your first post?
    RK_Parker is a troll name.

    This person has troll accounts on facebook, twitter, disqus and instagram. The entire account on MTBR is set up to troll.

    The troll accounts are YEARS old, so:

    1) Professional troll.

    2) We probably will recognize the person's real name.

    3) ...workin' on it.....

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by emjayel View Post
    Wow, I had no idea so spiteful a campaign has been going on for so long from Footpeople and their cohorts!

    I bet if I was still fighting the same fight after 7 years and had to deal with these folks for so long with seemingly little end in sight, I might get bitter and upset enough to start posting videos with descriptions like we have here as well.

    When I first read this thread, without understanding the background, it just comes across as somewhat radicalized and slightly crazy. And, in the face of that, my thinking was that perhaps if we were to seem the less crazy of the two camps in the room, that our point of view and requests/suggestions might carry more weight with the governing bodies.

    Sounds like that time may have come and gone and it's far too late to try and find a middle ground in Marin.

    I appreciate you hearing me out, Davey, and responding with civility to my 'uninformed observations'. I do hope you understand that I'm not criticizing the fight you and yours are crusading. On that point I am very much in agreement with you. I was ONLY trying to shed light on some of the tacts being used in this thread and how it could be damaging to the cause rather than contributing to its success.

    Sorry for the intrusion into your campaign. Soldier on!
    It isn't easy to distinguish between the obvious trolls commenting here and people who are so oblivious to the issues at hand and the history that they really feel my language is inflammatory.

    The MCL, MAS and the Footpeople. Have all used the nuclear option of litigation to halt all trail projects. This is after so throughly dominating all aspects of the RTMP process that the document stands as one of the most restrictive trail plans used by a public land manager.

    Specifically there is a prohibition on "extreme" or cycling. Something that could easily be used to restrict bike access going forward. The EIR scoring process means a net loss of trails best case. Worst is the scoring system all but completely halts any new trail constriction barring the removal of a fire road. A proposition out of Parks control and firmly in the wheelhouse of Fire.

    Despite all this restriction advocates and the public managed to win a few miles of social trail to public trail conversion for a greater number of social trail eradication. Not a great deal but advocates ran with it. Now all the anti groups are using the nuclear option to stop all trail work.

    My criticism of MCBC was that their partners had no such intention of compromise and would only screw them at the last minute. Considering Tom's last public statement, he seems surprised. When I spoke with Parks they didn't consider all three anti bike groups using the nuclear option.

    Up until this week I seemed completely unreasonable. Now we will wait to see what happens in regions 1 and 2. The true test of the RTMP is being tested by the total failure of Trail Partners to compromise on allowing one inch of multi use trail.

    Remember these are not even new trails.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by squareback View Post
    RK_Parker is a troll name.

    This person has troll accounts on facebook, twitter, disqus and instagram. The entire account on MTBR is set up to troll.

    The troll accounts are YEARS old, so:

    1) Professional troll.

    2) We probably will recognize the person's real name.

    3) ...workin' on it.....
    Thanks I'm guessing based on the number of trolls this thread has the attention of many. This is wonderful news.

    Please let us know what you find out. Should be interesting.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    Thanks I'm guessing based on the number of trolls this thread has the attention of many. This is wonderful news.

    Please let us know what you find out. Should be interesting.
    7187 view(s) in two hours, just of "rk_parkers" post

  8. #108
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    We should probably take this conversation over to the super sekret forum, it's called /b/ on 4chan. There we can discuss how to take over the trails once and for all.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGordo View Post




    Sent from somewhere out there.

    -I'm PISSED that I must spread around some Rep. to other's before heaping moar on GoGo!!

    Something MUST be done Francois!!!
    "There's two kinds of people in this world - Walkers and Talkers." Which one are you?

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMFT View Post
    -I'm PISSED that I must spread around some Rep. to other's before heaping moar on GoGo!!

    Something MUST be done Francois!!!
    I done did it for you.
    "...rhetorical hyperbole..."

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayPee View Post
    We should probably take this conversation over to the super sekret forum, it's called /b/ on 4chan. There we can discuss how to take over the trails once and for all.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    Sank u.
    Sank u veddy much.




    Sent from somewhere out there.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
    I done did it for you.

    THANKS Finchie!
    "There's two kinds of people in this world - Walkers and Talkers." Which one are you?

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
    I done did it for you.
    Tanks Gary!!
    Now #figgityfig****thefootpeeps.com!!

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
    I done did it for you.
    Tanks Gary!!
    Now #figgityfig f u c k thefootpeeps.com!!

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
    I done did it for you.
    Tanks Gary,and DMFT!!
    Now #figgityfig f u c k thefootpeeps.com!!
    REBEL!!

  17. #117
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    And I don't know who the Troll emjayel is but, your in the wrong forum dood.
    Beat it.

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    Rep dat beeatchas.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGordo View Post
    And I don't know who the Troll emjayel is but, your in the wrong forum dood.
    Beat it.

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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKD View Post
    Some Marin folks are a special kind of weird. I had a septuagenerian cross 15 feet of fire road and take a swing at me with a hiking pole for no reason whatsoever while I was grinding up Coastal (the 20% grade part out of Tennessee Valley). I had a horse rider give me all of two feet when she passed me, at a gallop, climbing up Marincello. I had a co-worker tell me she'd stick a hiking pole in my spokes if she saw me on any trail, and that was back when I was still rehabbing from an ACL reconstruction.
    Everyone gets along and says 'hi' where I ride, so it's really an alien idea to me. I almost want to go ride there as a kind of safari. Maybe that's a tourism / economic development angle.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    Everyone gets along and says 'hi' where I ride, so it's really an alien idea to me. I almost want to go ride there as a kind of safari. Maybe that's a tourism / economic development angle.
    That's the problem, on the trails there is almost no animosity or incidents of any kind. They have done two park surveys and 98% had a good or great experience in the parks. It's this group of haters that somehow the BOS bows down to.


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  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    Everyone gets along and says 'hi' where I ride, so it's really an alien idea to me. I almost want to go ride there as a kind of safari. Maybe that's a tourism / economic development angle.
    In fairness, that's one "incident" and one ******* on horseback, and one person I don't work with anymore. In ten years of riding Marin pretty regularly. Most people I encounter (horse folk included) are cool.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    That's the problem, on the trails there is almost no animosity or incidents of any kind. They have done two park surveys and 98% had a good or great experience in the parks. It's this group of haters that somehow the BOS bows down to.


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    -We have virtually the same thing going on down here on the Central Coast.
    Although our Parks Dept. and B.O.S. are not bowing down.
    "There's two kinds of people in this world - Walkers and Talkers." Which one are you?

  23. #123
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    Oh, gogo, really I'm not a troll. Honestly was speaking my mind and when Davey took the time to speak frankly and intelligently to me about it, I inderstood better the stupendous and aggravating things he's been chronicalling and battling.

    I'm ever so sorry I managed to get your panties into such a twist. The only guy that has any real reason to be pissed at me is Davey...and I think we left it in a fairly amicable spot.

    Please leave my mom out of it. It's just childish and, honestly, last decade cliche.

    Can we get back to the more important stuff now? Just replaced my brake pads and itchin to hit the trails tomorrow and find some moon dust to plow through. And ponder trail access in Marin.
    Cheers!
    Mike
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  24. #124
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    Get to know your Marin County mountain biker hater

    Quote Originally Posted by emjayel View Post
    Oh, gogo, really I'm not a troll. Honestly was speaking my mind and when Davey took the time to speak frankly and intelligently to me about it, I inderstood better the stupendous and aggravating things he's been chronicalling and battling.

    I'm ever so sorry I managed to get your panties into such a twist. The only guy that has any real reason to be pissed at me is Davey...and I think we left it in a fairly amicable spot.

    Please leave my mom out of it. It's just childish and, honestly, last decade cliche.

    Can we get back to the more important stuff now? Just replaced my brake pads and itchin to hit the trails tomorrow and find some moon dust to plow through. And ponder trail access in Marin.
    I think he just got you mixed up with another poster on the tread. The one who was an MTBR member for 26 min. First post with an ad holmium attack. Pretty much defining troll.

    You were just asking questions. With a cursory glance and no background I'm sure what I write about the anti cycling community seems inflammatory.

    But all one needs to realize is that this has been happening since the late 1970s.

    All starting with Point Reyes and the NPS and their philosophy on how to manage cycling in the Phillip P Burton Wilderness area.

  25. #125
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    TL;DR I conclude Marin is a sh!t hole.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  26. #126
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    Hey! My local bike haters gave Davey some ink and promoted this thread!

    Audubon Society prepares to sue Marin County over the Marin Road and Trail Management Plan, hundreds of small creatures killed on the trails - MOTHER LODE TRAILS

    Mother Lode Trails was formerly known as Park Watch Report and is controlled and mostly operated by the lifelong anti-bike advocate, Jaede Miloslavich. (Hi Jaede! Several of your fellow equestrian peers say you could really work on your horsemanship instead of trying to control everything around you!)

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    Hey! My local bike haters gave Davey some ink and promoted this thread!

    Audubon Society prepares to sue Marin County over the Marin Road and Trail Management Plan, hundreds of small creatures killed on the trails - MOTHER LODE TRAILS

    Mother Lode Trails was formerly known as Park Watch Report and is controlled and mostly operated by the lifelong anti-bike advocate, Jaede Miloslavich. (Hi Jaede! Several of your fellow equestrian peers say you could really work on your horsemanship instead of trying to control everything around you!)
    Oh boy....
    The S h i t sh o w continues.
    I wish someone would do a documentary about all this.


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  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    Hey! My local bike haters gave Davey some ink and promoted this thread!

    Audubon Society prepares to sue Marin County over the Marin Road and Trail Management Plan, hundreds of small creatures killed on the trails - MOTHER LODE TRAILS

    Mother Lode Trails was formerly known as Park Watch Report and is controlled and mostly operated by the lifelong anti-bike advocate, Jaede Miloslavich. (Hi Jaede! Several of your fellow equestrian peers say you could really work on your horsemanship instead of trying to control everything around you!)
    I see Jaede had trouble with the formatting on the "Rail" newsletter as well.

    So no more park watch report? Why the name change? No one likes them?

  29. #129
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    Yeah, as soon as I read the article I was thinking to myself...if you are such a large and formidable and nationwide organization why aren't you employing people that can proofread?

    The strange formatting, though (if that's what you are referring to, Davey), is a result of 'justification' applied to the text. It's normal.

    It does illustrate the disdain Jaede holds for us that she felt she needed to insert the reference to our forum and this thread. It adds not one single thing of any substance to the article but to exacerbate the animosity between our camps. Sadness.
    Cheers!
    Mike
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  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    I see Jaede had trouble with the formatting on the "Rail" newsletter as well.

    So no more park watch report? Why the name change? No one likes them?
    One of the rabid bike haters (Janet Peterson) took over (bought?) Park Watch and turned it into a business, shopping the technology to various parks, counties and land managers around the country. Jaede renamed her interest Mother Lode Trails.

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    One of the rabid bike haters (Janet Peterson) took over (bought?) Park Watch and turned it into a business, shopping the technology to various parks, counties and land managers around the country. Jaede renamed her interest Mother Lode Trails.
    Yes the Marin Conservation League is working very hard to bring the Park Watch Report app to Marin County public lands. I was hoping the whole thing fell apart when it was discovered the project is a completely biased scam.

    but no I guess.

    Very similar to the "Trail Partners" program in Marin. A requirement of CEQA to ease some of the negativity facing trail users. The program has been completely hijacked by one of the principal founders: The Marin Conservation League.

    Pamela Reaves, a board member of the MCL used her position to make false statements in the local paper about a cyclist allegedly assaulting her. The most outrageous, she was lifted overhead by the cyclist and thrown down the hill. She even claimed to have it all on film if only she could find her phone. Also thrown down the hill by the cyclist (allegedly).

    Turns out after 3 months of negative press and even getting MCBC to make a statement that this cyclist should come forward, the incident never happened.

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    One of the rabid bike haters (Janet Peterson) took over (bought?) Park Watch and turned it into a business, shopping the technology to various parks, counties and land managers around the country. Jaede renamed her interest Mother Lode Trails.
    You mean Mother load Trolls don't you?


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  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    Hi Jaede! Several of your fellow equestrian peers say you could really work on your horsemanship instead of trying to control everything around you!
    There are some that won't even attend local equestrian events because she's involved.
    All out of S**** and down to my last F***

  34. #134
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    ^ Yep. She's not well liked by most in the horse community she insists on representing, nor is she respected whatsoever by anyone that knows how to ride horses. State Parks is fed up with her too, but they try to play nice. But she sells the fear factor and there are plenty of ladies who buy into it. Like many of the Marin haters, she/they have invested so much time and money into demonizing bicycling, there is no way they will ever stop... until they are dead. #alifewasted

    But things are changing slowly.... a buddy (who posts here) told me last night he was on a defacto multi-use trail and came upon some equestrians, including one in a patrol shirt. Instead of berating him, she gleefully asked him to take a photo of them on their horses... and the other gal asked if he wouldn't mind tightening up the buckle on her saddle (under the horse). :-)

  35. #135
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    I ride my bike from my house to the trails - and yet I am harmful to the environment. But if you ride a horse that's littering the trails with horse droppings - you're more environmentally friendly? What a load of crap!

    Get to know your Marin County mountain biker hater-img_2946.jpg
    Life is short - enjoy the ride!

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by matuchi View Post
    I ride my bike from my house to the trails - and yet I am harmful to the environment. But if you ride a horse that's littering the trails with horse droppings - you're more environmentally friendly? What a load of crap!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    -That would make a good T-Shirt. Although I think the MPG is more like 8 than 12!
    "There's two kinds of people in this world - Walkers and Talkers." Which one are you?

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMFT View Post
    -That would make a good T-Shirt. Although I think the MPG is more like 8 than 12!
    I'm guessing more like 8 pulling that trailer full of horses.
    Life is short - enjoy the ride!

  38. #138
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    If it's a Chevy Duramax diesel, it probably gets 12-14 MPG with a trailer load. If it's gas powered, 8-10 with a load is probably about right.

  39. #139
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    If we want to talk about the hypocrisy of the horse crowd and their environmentalism then we should really talk about the negative impacts of having horses out in the environment. This is from the National Park Service:

    https://www.nps.gov/pore/learn/manag...ure_060718.pdf

    Not only is this study put out by the NPS, it was done in the Bay Area by Dominican University in San Rafael!!!

    A search shows many articles about how horses spread invasive species. Hmmm, last time I crapped in the woods while riding I had not eaten invasive species....nor did I do it within 100 feet of water....

    Hope you guys win here. I'm kinda busy getting the move to Oahu done but would love to see fair trail access here if I ever move back!
    I never said most of the things I said - Yogi Berra

  40. #140
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    For those of us that have lived in Marin for more than a few years, we've sadly become accustomed to the meager 3 or 4 miles of [watered down] bike legal single track that are thrown our way every ten years or so. In about 100 years, we'll have doubled our access to bike-legal singletrack.

    Sorry, I don't have the time participate in political processes like this one that are being held hostage by a very vocal and small number of zealots. Perhaps it's time we consider a new paradigm in how we approach trail access... if you get my drift.

  41. #141
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    I just came across this thread and had to respond. I have been biking on and off in Marin for the last 20 years, though my "mountain biking" has been mostly limited to occasional rides on local fire roads. I just got a nice mountain bike, but then I became pregnant and had a baby... I am hoping to get back to riding again soon. I haven't posted on MTBR before, but read the forums occasionally.

    The folks mentioned in this thread are not just against mountain biking - they are against almost any type of recreational use of land in Marin... I live in a house in East Corte Madera that my grandpa bought in the early 1960's. He worked a blue collar job for many years and saved money so he could buy a house with water access because he loved going fishing in the bay. After about 10 years, the water way needed to be dredged, but Marin Audubon opposed this because it would negatively impact the Salt Marsh Harvest Mouse. My grandpa and his neighbors went to city council meetings for many years to advocate for dredging, but the rights of the mouse won out over the rights of the homeowners... The house I live in has a huge boat ramp and dock and neither of them are usable. Our back yard floods completely during high tide in winter. Some of our neighbors were so upset, they sold their houses and moved away. My grandpa sold his boat, gave up on the one hobby he loved and spent the rest of his life hating environmentalists...

    About 30 years later, I am living in the house he bought and spent some years bike commuting to several jobs - one in SF and one in Terra Linda. My experience bike commuting has convinced me that narrower multi-use paths (MUPs), such as the one by the Village shopping center and the Mill Valley-Sausalito path need to be widened to safely accommodate the amount of bike and pedestrian traffic they get. I had a lot of safety problems on the East Corte Madera MUP. The final straw for me occurred when two dogs on retractable leashed darted in front of me when I was riding to work. I was pregnant and on a road bike when this happened... Luckily, I avoided a crash. I have been advocating for widening narrow MUPs since then.

    I am a member of MCBC and spoke with MCBC staff last year. I was told that MCBC staff had advocated for widening the Mill Valley path, but Marin Audubon opposed this because widening the path would impact the habitat of the endangered mouse... There have been high-profile problems of bike-ped conflict on the Mill Valley MUP. Marin Audubon even opposed the placement of a sign which would display the current speed of cyclists - because predator birds could perch on the sign and then swoop down to eat the mouse easier! I think this is ridiculous and I am starting to understand some of the republicans who want to abolish the EPA...

    I think all MUPs should have speed display signs. I have had pedestrians yell at me for going to fast when I am going well under the speed limit and I am sick of that. The problem is that they have headphones on or get distracted and don't hear "on your left."

    Aside from protesting dredging, boating, mountain bike trail access and MUP widening, Marin Audubon opposed the SMART train and they have been protesting parts of the North-South Greenway which would run parallel to SMART. They are opposed to night lighting pretty much everywhere - including local high schools who wanted to use athletic fields at night. I was at a Corte Madera town council meeting to support a new bike path which would help kids from East Corte Madera bike to schools on the other side of the Freeway and guess who was there opposing it? Marin Audubon, of course... I stopped bike commuting in winter because I had people yell at me for using a bike light at night. I spent tons of money on a wide-beam light that would would be less annoying to pedestrians facing me and still got yelled at. Not sure if it was because of conservation concerns...

    The deep irony about Marin Audubon's opposition to widening the Mill Valley MUP is that the mouse habitat is most threatened by rising sea level. If we increase transport by bike and decrease transport by car, this would minimize CO2 levels that contribute to sea level rise... They are choosing to protest a minor habitat impact (a wider MUP path that people use for walking and biking), even though this could help reduce the real threat that rising sea level has on all humans and animals that reside in SF bay marsh land areas.

    Sorry for the long rant, but I feel very passionate about this issue. I feel that Marin Audubon has prevented multiple generations of my family from actually being able to travel safely, recreate, use the house we have for the reason it was purchased, etc. From an environmental perspective, the marsh area in East Corte Madera probably never should have been developed, but it was. If they want to offer market value for the house and turn it into a sanctuary for the endangered mouse, that is fine with me. But, I have a major problem with being stripped of my rights to bike safely or being forced to not use a boat ramp and dock while I am still residing in the home. There are now solar boats, hybrid boats, etc. and boat travel would also be a way to get a car off the congested highways.

  42. #142
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    Best. First post. Ever.

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    Thanks! I forgot to add another important point...

    I was riding down Railroad Grade from the east peak last year when I encountered over 10 hikers hiking uphill who purposely blocked me from passing. They were all in their 60's and had hiking poles. They were purposely trying to force mountain bikers going downhill to ride very slow and/or stop. Because they refused to move or talk to me when I politely requested to pass, I wound up getting off my bike and standing at the edge of an exposed drop. Given how wide Railroad Grade is, this was an absurd situation... As woman riding by myself, I found it scary to have a large group of people purposefully block me from moving and refuse to speak to me.

    I knew those hikers were likely people from MCL, Footpeople, Marin Audubon, etc. I wrote a letter about all the issues I noted above and the Railroad Grade incident and sent a copy to Steve Kinsey on the BOS, Open Space staff, etc. I also wrote directly to Marin Audubon and Footpeople (they have an email I found on Google). I expressed particular concern about the impact of anti-cycling sentiments and activism on women and children traveling by bike. This was right after the booby trap with rusty nails was discovered in Fairfax. Steve Kinsey was pretty supportive and I received no response from Marin Audubon. I received snarky and hostile responses from Nona and Larry of the Footpeople, but they did respond.

  44. #144
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    Marin's anti-cycle groups are their own kind of stupid. So busy hating on the fun that others have, I think they've forgotten why they like being outside in the first place.

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by halcyon99 View Post
    Thanks! I forgot to add another important point...

    I was riding down Railroad Grade from the east peak last year when I encountered over 10 hikers hiking uphill who purposely blocked me from passing. They were all in their 60's and had hiking poles. They were purposely trying to force mountain bikers going downhill to ride very slow and/or stop. Because they refused to move or talk to me when I politely requested to pass, I wound up getting off my bike and standing at the edge of an exposed drop. Given how wide Railroad Grade is, this was an absurd situation... As woman riding by myself, I found it scary to have a large group of people purposefully block me from moving and refuse to speak to me.

    I knew those hikers were likely people from MCL, Footpeople, Marin Audubon, etc. I wrote a letter about all the issues I noted above and the Railroad Grade incident and sent a copy to Steve Kinsey on the BOS, Open Space staff, etc. I also wrote directly to Marin Audubon and Footpeople (they have an email I found on Google). I expressed particular concern about the impact of anti-cycling sentiments and activism on women and children traveling by bike. This was right after the booby trap with rusty nails was discovered in Fairfax. Steve Kinsey was pretty supportive and I received no response from Marin Audubon. I received snarky and hostile responses from Nona and Larry of the Footpeople, but they did respond.
    The actions of those miscreants on Railroad Grade were not just a minor thing. They violated your right to free and safe passage.

    In blocking your ability to safely pass they may have committed an act of unlawful restraint, which is a criminal offense. Admittedly it could be a long-shot for a prosecutor to make such a charge stick in a Marin County court as said court is more sympathetic to these trail-Nazis than mountain cyclists...but such a crime is prosecuted successfully in other areas of California...I do not know if anyone has successfully used the following described Penal Code sections for someone blocking a mountain biker from accessing or using a trail or fire-road (establishing precedent) but these sections of law have been charged/prosecuted/sentenced against in many other circumstances for years.

    Unlawful restraint comes under the section of California state law covered by Penal Code section 237(a) and 236, which is also called false imprisonment (which is not really a good descriptive title of this law...unlawful restraint is the better term and is used pretty interchangeably.)

    For 237(a), a misdemeanor, these elements must exist: 1) The suspect(s) intentionally and unlawfully restrained, detained or confined another person; and 2) The suspect(s) made the person stay or go somewhere against that person's will.

    For 236, a felony, these elements must exist: 1) The suspect(s) intentionally and unlawfully restrained, detained or confined anoter person by using violence or menace; and 2) The suspect(s) made the person stay or go somewhere against that person's will.

    Does this apply in the OP's circumstance? My opinion is yes.

    What can you do with this? For any mountain biker who experiences this you may request law enforcement investigate and/or arrest the suspects for this crime. In many cases you will deal with hostile law enforcement who will not make the arrest on their own, instead making you perform a citizens arrest. Worth it do do so.

    Go Pro/action camera footage can help sort this out immensely. Pays to ride with such an evidence gathering device.

    At the very least a mountain biker that is detained by such acts can, at the time of the action occurring, advise the suspects that they are in violation of such laws, subject to misdemeanor or felony arrest, and that they are being recorded (if you are running an action cam). Don't commit any act of physical contact against the miscreants (or law enforcement will blow the whole thing off as a mutual combat at a minimum or make you the bad-guy and instigator at the very worst), just do your best to record/write down/remember every detail and figure our how to safely pass or turn around and go back the way you came. Report the problem to the correct authority. If you get the run-around by law enforcement and they don't want to take a crime report, you have the right to make an "information only report" that will get assigned an official report number and be filed with that days crime reports (don't let them talk you into only submitting a "log note" or a CAD/Computer Aided Dispatch incident notation or report....you demand a written report.) Once something is on file, suspect/subject names are in (at least the local) database, which upon further reports of criminal activity be searched against and used as evidence in investigation or prosecution.

    This is a way to fight back legally, take advantage of it.
    "You're messing with my zen thing, man!"

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bokchoicowboy View Post

    What can you do with this? For any mountain biker who experiences this you may request law enforcement investigate and/or arrest the suspects for this crime. In many cases you will deal with hostile law enforcement who will not make the arrest on their own, instead making you perform a citizens arrest. Worth it do do so.


    This is a way to fight back legally, take advantage of it.
    Your advice is always welcome.

    If you could post a link to a source instructing a person how to successfully and legally perform a "Citizens Arrest", I think it would be appreciated

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKD View Post
    Marin's anti-cycle groups are their own kind of stupid. So busy hating on the fun that others have, I think they've forgotten why they like being outside in the first place.
    My uncle told me a joke:

    "whats the difference between an environmentalist and a developer?

    the environmentalist already has a cabin in the woods."

    MAS, MCL, MHC, the Footpeople they all all pushing for the status quo. Defacto private access to public land for an equestrian stable, dumping tons of horse **** every year into the salmon habitat. "Oh, that's tradition."

    Kid riding his bike on the trails trying to make a connection that doesn't involve his cell phone?

    HERETIC!!!! BURN THE WITCH!!! the army of (6) old ladies come out with their pitch forks sharpened and torches to room 330 to show their displeasure.

    Even worse are those who abuse their power to get a good deal for themselves and exclude others. They already have the cabin in the woods and no, don't come riding on my trails on your bikes.

    Never mind the trails are all on land we pay for. NIMBY means something special in Marin, because it has been honored for so long and the environment is just the excuse.

    In fact I'd make a strong case that this new breed of citizen science is just an extension of NIMBYism. The developers and land barons of the future will all have environmental science degrees, or at least make special deals for those who do.

  48. #148
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    They are trying to outlaw leaf blowers in my neighborhood for being a major hazard to public health. Nothing here surprises me anymore. You have to laugh it off at some point.

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  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bokchoicowboy View Post
    The actions of those miscreants on Railroad Grade were not just a minor thing. They violated your right to free and safe passage.

    In blocking your ability to safely pass they may have committed an act of unlawful restraint, which is a criminal offense. Admittedly it could be a long-shot for a prosecutor to make such a charge stick in a Marin County court as said court is more sympathetic to these trail-Nazis than mountain cyclists...but such a crime is prosecuted successfully in other areas of California...I do not know if anyone has successfully used the following described Penal Code sections for someone blocking a mountain biker from accessing or using a trail or fire-road (establishing precedent) but these sections of law have been charged/prosecuted/sentenced against in many other circumstances for years.

    Unlawful restraint comes under the section of California state law covered by Penal Code section 237(a) and 236, which is also called false imprisonment (which is not really a good descriptive title of this law...unlawful restraint is the better term and is used pretty interchangeably.)

    For 237(a), a misdemeanor, these elements must exist: 1) The suspect(s) intentionally and unlawfully restrained, detained or confined another person; and 2) The suspect(s) made the person stay or go somewhere against that person's will.

    For 236, a felony, these elements must exist: 1) The suspect(s) intentionally and unlawfully restrained, detained or confined anoter person by using violence or menace; and 2) The suspect(s) made the person stay or go somewhere against that person's will.

    Does this apply in the OP's circumstance? My opinion is yes.

    What can you do with this? For any mountain biker who experiences this you may request law enforcement investigate and/or arrest the suspects for this crime. In many cases you will deal with hostile law enforcement who will not make the arrest on their own, instead making you perform a citizens arrest. Worth it do do so.

    Go Pro/action camera footage can help sort this out immensely. Pays to ride with such an evidence gathering device.

    At the very least a mountain biker that is detained by such acts can, at the time of the action occurring, advise the suspects that they are in violation of such laws, subject to misdemeanor or felony arrest, and that they are being recorded (if you are running an action cam). Don't commit any act of physical contact against the miscreants (or law enforcement will blow the whole thing off as a mutual combat at a minimum or make you the bad-guy and instigator at the very worst), just do your best to record/write down/remember every detail and figure our how to safely pass or turn around and go back the way you came. Report the problem to the correct authority. If you get the run-around by law enforcement and they don't want to take a crime report, you have the right to make an "information only report" that will get assigned an official report number and be filed with that days crime reports (don't let them talk you into only submitting a "log note" or a CAD/Computer Aided Dispatch incident notation or report....you demand a written report.) Once something is on file, suspect/subject names are in (at least the local) database, which upon further reports of criminal activity be searched against and used as evidence in investigation or prosecution.

    This is a way to fight back legally, take advantage of it.
    Thanks for the info. - I will at least file a police report if something like that ever happens again. I did report the incident to staff at MCBC.

  50. #150
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    Yeah, NIMBY-ism in Marin is unique and supposedly rooted in environmental concern...

    I have noticed a lot of NIMBY-ism and anti-bike sentiment on NextDoor. Another reason I have been advocating for wider MUPs in Marin is due to how much hostility I have read from pedestrians about cyclists riding on local MUPs. There is major controversy in the Corte Madera and Mill Valley neighborhoods about the possibility of Alto Tunnel being opened, as part of the North-South Greenway. There are a few local residents who frequently post about their opposition to the Alto Tunnel on NextDoor. One guy even threatened to "find" some endangered species in the Alto Tunnel area so that there would be more environmental hurdles to deal with...

    Given how bad the highway 101 commute can be at certain times, it boggles my mind that people would oppose the North-South Greenway - something that could really help reduce traffic and pollution in Marin.

  51. #151
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    Marin Audubon and the footpeople are not professional wildlife biologists. They don't design studies and submit papers to scientific journals. They're just an interest group that is ruthlessly fear-mongering.

    They're opportunist, egomaniacal, misanthropic people. They see themselves as moral compasses and defenders of the Earth, justified using whatever Machiavellian tactics are convenient. Their opinions are usually not supported by logic, facts or statistics, but emotion. If they can run up project costs and delay projects, they will, as this allows them to deter or suppress other users. They DO NOT act in good faith, b/c they see themselves as the source of all moral authority.

    Their sanctimonious bs is so tired. To hear them rant about wildlife like lizards being killed by bikers is hilarious when you consider the extent of road kill in Marin.

  52. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by squareback View Post
    Your advice is always welcome.

    If you could post a link to a source instructing a person how to successfully and legally perform a "Citizens Arrest", I think it would be appreciated
    For reference, the law covering arrests in California is found in CA Penal Code sections 833-851.90, with section 837 covering "Citizens Arrest":

    837. A private person may arrest another:
    1. For a public offense committed or attempted in his presence.
    2. When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not
    in his presence.
    3. When a felony has been in fact committed, and he has reasonable
    cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it.
    As far as how to go about and perform a Citizens Arrest...there is a lot of stuff out on the 'net that talks about this (most of which I would be careful about, as some of it is wrong advice and could expose you to civil lawsuit), but at the most basic level the process is as follows for any crime you want someone arrested for that you are willing to pursue prosecution of by way of arresting that person yourself. In most cases, this is how it will be done:

    1) Contact law enforcement, advise them you wish to make a citizens arrest for violation of "x" crime.
    2) LEO will be dispatched to contact you...they will hear your story and advise you of your options, including going forward with the citizens arrest.
    3) IN MOST CASES you will have to go with the LEO to contact the suspect. The LEO will most likely listen to the suspect's side of the story. LEO will probably again ask you what you wish to do.
    4) You have to advise the suspect (preferably verbally) they are under arrest by you and what the arrest is for.
    5) Except in the cases of some misdemeanors and felonies, or if there is a problem with violence, other charges such as warrants, or a question of identification of the suspect, the suspect will not be taken to jail. The LEO will produce a notice to appear (citation, ticket) containing the information describing the crime and legal code section the arrest is for, have you sign as the arresting officer (the officer usually will also sign) and have the suspect sign the promise to appear.
    6) Suspect will be released upon that promise to appear and everyone goes on their way, to meet again later in court (usually no less than 30 days out). Meanwhile you will be contacted by the DA so you can work with them to prosecute the case. You may also be contacted by the assisting/co-arresting law enforcement department if further investigation is needed.

    In practice that is about how things go down. There actually is a lot more involved, especially if there is violence, the suspect has left the scene, you are unable to personally contact and arrest the suspect, etc. A good write up of the process, including the legal background and logic of the process complete with legal references, was created by the Alameda County District Attorney...it is pretty good reading if you would like to know more about the process, and it is one of the best "common language" explanations of the process and laws that I have seen (plus it is a trustworthy and accurate source): http://le.alcoda.org/publications/fi...ZENSARREST.pdf
    "You're messing with my zen thing, man!"

  53. #153
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    Yeah I'm sure this would go well

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  54. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by DriverB View Post
    Yeah I'm sure this would go well

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk
    Talk like that is defeatist. Doesn't help.

    Citizens arrests happen every day...in fact many of the misdemeanor arrests officers make during the course of their daily shift have the reporting party signing the cite for arrest. It is a tried and true process that works well.

    The problem is that most mountain bikers do not realize that they have the ability and right to do this. Or like you they may have the attitude that it will be useless.

    Change happens when someone stands up and does something. Best if it is done by way of the legal processes we have in place as opposed to obnoxious vigilante or mob methods that stand outside of the law. These Footpeople and other trail-Nazis use the legal process all the time when they go and b*tch and moan about mountain bikers in the Government hearings this thread has been discussing. Why should we not do the same and exercise our right to pursue prosecution of these people when they violate the rights and freedoms guaranteed us by the law of this country?

    Think about this...these people have been the squeaky-wheel and therefore what they want gets done. What if mountain bikers started prosecuting these people when they pull anything that is in violation of the law. It is said these people will do whatever they can to complicate the government/environmental processes just to make things difficult....how difficult do you think it will become for them instead if they have to appear in court for violating a law? Waste their time, perhaps cause them to sacrifice cash or even face jail?

    If these people start getting arrested for things, do you think their credibility in these government hearings and meetings will start to be affected?

    What mountain bikers need to do in Marin is study up on the laws that govern the areas they ride in, including laws in the code of the Marin Municipal Water District, County of Marin county code, local city municipal codes, State of California Penal/Vehicle/and other codes as well as the State Parks district orders etc., and even Federal statutes (to cover the Golden Gate Recreation Area and Point Reyes National Seashore, etc.) With that information then one would know what is a crime and could affect a citizens arrest.

    I am talking about stuff like these miscreants did to halcyon99, where they blocked her path on the fire road on Tam. Say you encounter one of the asshats and they decide to touch you in any way without your consent...that at a minimum is a battery, section 242 of the Penal Code...an arrestable offense. Lets say they are verbally abusive...you decide that you are "in fear for your well being"...that is an assault...240 of the Penal Code. Lets say you encounter one of the trail-Nazis boobytrapping a trail or fire-road...that would be covered as a crime under one of the laws...how about one of the trail-Nazis altering the trail (dig, remove rocks, etc.) without permission from the local authority...that would be a violation of a law/code or district order. You could probably think of a lot more from any interactions you may have had with them or seen stuff they have done out on the trail. You should get the idea...there is a lot that they are doing that should be reported and prosecuted.
    "You're messing with my zen thing, man!"

  55. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by halcyon99 View Post
    Thanks for the info. - I will at least file a police report if something like that ever happens again. I did report the incident to staff at MCBC.
    Great first post BTW. I grew up on Paradise drive, near the Marin Country Day School. Not to be a wet blanket, but MCBC likely will never follow up on a complaint about other trail users.

    Sadly, I've only seen complaints about cyclists followed up on from MCBC. Also their letter writing leaves much to be desired. As they seem to find a cyclist to blame for every incident in Open Space. The latest being the 680 incident. Even though the authorities were aware that Pamela Reaves was lying. MCBC still wrote a letter condemning the cyclist and calling for him to come forward (even though he called 911). Now MCBC is claiming they can not correct the record or even issue a press release that they may have been mistaken and Pamela Reaves. I guess they can only make a cry for someones head on a platter using rumor and conjecture if that someone is a mountain biker?

    I hope that MCBC gets out of the off road cycling arena and sticks with trying to do something like open the Alto Tunnel or create a functional path next to the SMART train. Rather than a non continuous series of paths that dead end with a stop sign and another sign commanding cyclists to walk their bike.

  56. #156
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    Davey - did you ever do a FOIA request for the police reports on the 680 incident? Could be really interesting to bring any police records of false reporting to the MarinIJ.

    Let's keep the focus of this thread where it belongs - on the asshats that want to kick bikes off trails. MCBC may not be militating for turning White's Hill into Whistler, but they're moving the needle in the right direction, and are a useful "good cop" to have working the process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKD View Post
    Davey - did you ever do a FOIA request for the police reports on the 680 incident? Could be really interesting to bring any police records of false reporting to the MarinIJ.

    Let's keep the focus of this thread where it belongs - on the asshats that want to kick bikes off trails. MCBC may not be militating for turning White's Hill into Whistler, but they're moving the needle in the right direction, and are a useful "good cop" to have working the process.
    Well AKD, I'd allege at this point after 10 years of dedicating much of my free time to this issue that MCBC has to fund their on road program with grants from the county, this makes them very accommodating to watering down the off road program.

    Anyway...

    This letter was sent into the Marin County S.O. by someone other than myself. There was no response from the S.O. At this point I need a law degree, because no other cycling advocates will follow up. I placed a direct phone call to Jim Elias the ED of MCBC and he also refused to follow up as well:

    August 2, 2016

    Director of Records
    Marin Sheriffs Department
    1600 Los Gamos Dr. #200, San Rafael, CA 94903
    RE: Public Records Act Request

    Greetings,

    Pursuant to my rights under the California Public Records Act (Government Code Section 6250 et seq.), I herby request a copy of the following, which I understand to be held by your agency: The Sherriff’s incident report SO 15-0161 regarding an alleged assault on or about February 26, 2015 on Luiz Ranch Fire Road in the Terra Linda-Sleepy Hollow Divide Preserve on Marin County Open Space District lands, and any associated documents, reports, or findings by the Marin County Sheriffs Department in relation to or involving this same incident.

    I only request the findings of the investigators in this case and would accept —and prefer— that any identifying information of any and all parties involved be redacted from the reports(s). This information will not be used commercially and is in the best interest of the citizens of Marin County in regards to the their use of public lands.

    The California Public Records Act requires a response within ten business days. If access to the records I am requesting will take longer, please contact me with information about when I might expect copies or the ability to inspect the requested records.

    If you deny any or all of this request, please cite each specific exemption you feel justifies the refusal to release the information and notify me of the appeal procedures available to me under the law.

    If I can provide any clarification that will help expedite your attention to my request, please contact me at XXXXXXXXXX If possible, please mail or e-mail these records to me at: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XX

    Thank you for your time and attention to this matter.

    Sincerely,

  58. #158
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    To be fair, I don't think that the folks in the MCBC off road program are lawyers (as a lawyer, imho that's a good thing). Let me poke around a bit and see what I can find.

  59. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKD View Post
    To be fair, I don't think that the folks in the MCBC off road program are lawyers (as a lawyer, imho that's a good thing). Let me poke around a bit and see what I can find.
    It doesn't take a lawyer to correct a letter written in error. Read the words from Jim Elias the ED of MCBC:

    The Marin County Bicycle Coalition is both saddened and outraged by the news that a woman was recently assaulted on a trail by a man riding a mountain bike.

    Apparently, a bad encounter escalated into inexcusable behavior when a man ultimately physically attacked the female hiker. We can only hope that the individual will come forward and take responsibility for his actions.

    Violent behavior of this sort can have multiple effects, in addition to having harmed someone who was simply out hiking. It can have the broader effect of making people feel unsafe while on open space preserves and parkland.

    It can also cast a negative light on the mountain bike community as a whole; however, the behavior does not accurately reflect on the spirit of mountain biking or those who enjoy it.

    Mountain bikers range in age from 8 to 80, and as a whole, care about the environment and practice good trail etiquette. Most seek the same experience as other trail users, including exercise and being immersed in nature.

    The coalition believes that education and stewardship must go hand in hand with the opportunity to enjoy trails in Marin’s parks. We partner with all Marin land managers on trail maintenance and habitat restoration projects.

    We install free bike bells at trailheads and show people how to use them.

    In partnership with the Marin Horse Council, we offer Tails and Tires, a free workshop to train young bicyclists how to properly interact with equestrians on the trails.

    The friendly and respectful interactions that the coalition is working so hard to promote are undermined by this recent incident.

    The coalition position is simple: If you can’t play nice, please stay out of our shared public lands.

    — Jim Elias, executive director, Marin County Bicycle Coalition

    Jim continues his rant on the off road cycling community here. Including the words "play nice or stay out".

    Hiker-biker clash reignites tension on Marin trails

    Keep in mind this was months after the incident by that time it was well know that Pamela Reaves was no longer telling the truth. To this day charges have never been filed. Yet this incident generated so much negativity it completely changed the trajectory of the RTMP process. What has been lost to the off road cycling community will never be known.

    Sorry AKD, when the advocates act like adversaries I start pointing fingers and I wont stop until these adversaries either apologize or correct the record. Ideally both.

  60. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    Great first post BTW. I grew up on Paradise drive, near the Marin Country Day School. Not to be a wet blanket, but MCBC likely will never follow up on a complaint about other trail users.

    Sadly, I've only seen complaints about cyclists followed up on from MCBC. Also their letter writing leaves much to be desired. As they seem to find a cyclist to blame for every incident in Open Space. The latest being the 680 incident. Even though the authorities were aware that Pamela Reaves was lying. MCBC still wrote a letter condemning the cyclist and calling for him to come forward (even though he called 911). Now MCBC is claiming they can not correct the record or even issue a press release that they may have been mistaken and Pamela Reaves. I guess they can only make a cry for someones head on a platter using rumor and conjecture if that someone is a mountain biker?

    I hope that MCBC gets out of the off road cycling arena and sticks with trying to do something like open the Alto Tunnel or create a functional path next to the SMART train. Rather than a non continuous series of paths that dead end with a stop sign and another sign commanding cyclists to walk their bike.
    You have a very good point about the 680 incident - it seems like that could have been handled a lot better.

    I think MCBC has been working too hard to be collaborative with groups like MCL, Marin Audubon, etc. - even when it is clear that those groups generally won't engage in meaningful collaboration and compromise. I understand why they want to do and say what seems like politically correct public discourse - they have to try and engage government agencies, apply for grants, etc.

    In some cases, I think the collaborative approach is helpful - like offering trail etiquette classes where cyclists and horseback riders can interact and horses get a chance to get used to bikes. In other cases, I think the collaborative approach is a real cop-out.

    The Share the Path campaign on the Mill Valley path is a cop-out. Reducing the speed limit to 10mph is a very bad solution to a problem of bad infrastructure design. It sends the message that cyclists who want to bike for transportation don't belong on MUPs. I am fine with biking on roads with bike lanes, but I do prefer to avoid roads without bike lanes when possible. There are drunk drivers, distracted drivers, elderly drivers who may not see you, people struggling to see as they drive into a setting sun... In order to bike for transportation, you need to be able to cycle at a decent speed, typically 10 - 15 mph, on average. I wrote to Open Space staff that oversee the Mill Valley path and they acknowledged that a wider path would be much safer for the public.

    A very good article on this here:

    A view from the cycle path: Shared Use Paths create conflict and cause complaints about "speed"

    I did speak with Alisha from MCBC last year and I did express my concern that MCBC seemed to be prioritizing the safety of pedestrians over the safety of cyclists on MUPs. She was receptive to this concern, though I read that she is now working with the Sonoma bike coalition. It would be great if MCBC sought more feedback from members about advocacy priorities. I would hesitate to withdraw support, because they are the biggest group advocating for cyclists generally.

  61. #161
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    Here's a quick reaction. Police reports and investigative files may be exempted from disclosure, but the police cannot withhold the basic facts (who, what, when, where, why) of requests for assistance and incidents. There's case law supporting the required disclosure of this (County of Los Angeles v. Superior Court, 18 Cal.App.4th 588 (1993)) but I haven't dug into it to see how current it is.

    I've excerpted the relevant Gov Code language below, but any future public records act request should very clearly call out Cal. Gov. Code section 6254 (f)(2) and seek this basic info. The lack of a response from the Marin County sheriff's office is BS, but send it again in a narrower construction (and maybe a copy to your supervisor so the MCSO takes it seriously) and see if you get better results?



    6254. Except as provided in Sections 6254.7 and 6254.13, this
    chapter does not require the disclosure of any of the following
    records
    :

    ...

    (f) Records of complaints to, or investigations conducted by, or
    records of intelligence information or security procedures of, the
    office of the Attorney General and the Department of Justice, the
    Office of Emergency Services and any state or local police agency, or
    any investigatory or security files compiled by any other state or
    local police agency,
    or any investigatory or security files compiled
    by any other state or local agency for correctional, law enforcement,
    or licensing purposes. However, state and local law enforcement
    agencies shall disclose the names and addresses of persons involved
    in, or witnesses other than confidential informants to, the incident,
    the description of any property involved, the date, time, and
    location of the incident, all diagrams, statements of the parties
    involved in the incident, the statements of all witnesses, other than
    confidential informants, to the victims of an incident, or an
    authorized representative thereof, an insurance carrier against which
    a claim has been or might be made, and any person suffering bodily
    injury or property damage or loss, as the result of the incident
    caused by arson, burglary, fire, explosion, larceny, robbery,
    carjacking, vandalism, vehicle theft, or a crime as defined by
    subdivision (b) of Section 13951, unless the disclosure would
    endanger the safety of a witness or other person involved in the
    investigation, or unless disclosure would endanger the successful
    completion of the investigation or a related investigation. However,
    this division does not require the disclosure of that portion of
    those investigative files that reflects the analysis or conclusions
    of the investigating officer.

    Notwithstanding any other provision of this subdivision, state and
    local law enforcement agencies shall make public the following
    information
    , except to the extent that disclosure of a particular
    item of information would endanger the safety of a person involved in
    an investigation or would endanger the successful completion of the
    investigation or a related investigation:
    ...
    (2) Subject to the restrictions imposed by Section 841.5 of the
    Penal Code, the time, substance, and location of all complaints or
    requests for assistance received by the agency and the time and
    nature of the response thereto, including, to the extent the
    information regarding crimes alleged or committed or any other
    incident investigated is recorded, the time, date, and location of
    occurrence, the time and date of the report, the name and age of the
    victim, the factual circumstances surrounding the crime or incident,
    and a general description of any injuries, property, or weapons
    involved
    . The name of a victim of any crime defined by Section 220,

  62. #162
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    Davey,

    We've had this discussion many times before. MCBC would have lost a ton of credibility if they had said bikes weren't at fault (the evidence at the time was overwhelmingly to the contrary). I would have preferred that they said "we await the police investigation, and, if a bike was at fault, then they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law" but they were in a bad situation and arguably came out with more credibility from the government. Yes, they lost some within the mountain bike community, but Jim came on here and talked about it with all of us, which you have to respect even if you don't agree with him. MCBC may have gotten it wrong here, but it didn't cause lasting damage - the MarinIJ's one-sided coverage of all things bike is mostly to blame in that regard.

  63. #163
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    halcyon99,

    I've been screamed at on a number of occasions by motorists for not using the path. Then yelled at again for riding too fast on the MUP, the same day. When I was younger and racing road bikes my former baseball coach, Pete a Tiburon police officer used to pull me over and tell me to ride on the Tiburon bike path. Not on Paradise Drive. This was in the late 80s or early 90s. Nothing has changed in the realm of on road advocacy, IMO.

    The only thing that changed is that MCBC is saying the wrong thing about off road cycling and creating an even worse situation. MCBC, by joining trail partners is giving groups like the MCL real legitimacy even though Pamela Reaves a board member of the MCL is the one who created the 680 incident.

    How we as cyclists can not see how the "trail partners" program a requirement of CEQA and the RTMP, has been corrupted by allowing the group that created the 680 incident, is beyond me.

    "Trail partners" is a mandate and the RTMP process is entirely dependent on the MCL, MHC and MCBC maintaining a dialogue. The fact this dialoge has become completely one sided to address aggressive cyclists is entirely due to the complete failure of MCBC to stand up for not only their own members, but for the simple truth.

  64. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKD View Post
    Davey,

    We've had this discussion many times before. MCBC would have lost a ton of credibility if they had said bikes weren't at fault (the evidence at the time was overwhelmingly to the contrary). I would have preferred that they said "we await the police investigation, and, if a bike was at fault, then they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law" but they were in a bad situation and arguably came out with more credibility from the government. Yes, they lost some within the mountain bike community, but Jim came on here and talked about it with all of us, which you have to respect even if you don't agree with him. MCBC may have gotten it wrong here, but it didn't cause lasting damage - the MarinIJ's one-sided coverage of all things bike is mostly to blame in that regard.
    I would have preferred that as well and we must send a message to MCBC that they can not handle the next incident in the same, completely incompetent way.

  65. #165
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    I also want MCBC to stop claiming they represent mountain bikers in Marin. They do good work, no doubt, on the transportation side of things. However, people need to realize they are NOT an organization whose main priority is to promote recreational cycling (Mountain or road cycling). They are focused on bikes as transportation and using them as a means to an end: getting funding for bike infrastructure and promoting livable communities. The efforts they do to promote the recreational side of cycling are secondary.

    So, what good is their credibility with decision makers if the off road policies they advocate and support are counter-productive? They have legitimized "groups" opposed to mountain biking on singletrack, reinforced the assumption that mountain biking is dangerous, and undermined other pro-mountain bike forces in the County. Not good.

    I know people feel like ANY incremental progress is beneficial (and therefore MCBC is a force for good), but MCBC's participation comes at a great expense--helping our opponents to control the political debate about bikes on Open Space in Marin.

    The cynical side of me believes that MCBC has used the controversy over the RTMP to build political capital with decision makers at the expense of increased access for mountain bikers. I know that MCBC is hyper concerned with their County, city, and other professional relationships, and hyper focused on their public image and messaging. I doubt MCBC would have put out any public statements or press releases without a strategic calculation on how it can help them achieve their goals with their East-West and North-South Greenway campaigns as well as SMART.

  66. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syncro View Post
    I also want MCBC to stop claiming they represent mountain bikers in Marin. They do good work, no doubt, on the transportation side of things. However, people need to realize they are NOT an organization whose main priority is to promote recreational cycling (Mountain or road cycling). They are focused on bikes as transportation and using them as a means to an end: getting funding for bike infrastructure and promoting livable communities. The efforts they do to promote the recreational side of cycling are secondary.

    So, what good is their credibility with decision makers if the off road policies they advocate and support are counter-productive? They have legitimized "groups" opposed to mountain biking on singletrack, reinforced the assumption that mountain biking is dangerous, and undermined other pro-mountain bike forces in the County. Not good.

    I know people feel like ANY incremental progress is beneficial (and therefore MCBC is a force for good), but MCBC's participation comes at a great expense--helping our opponents to control the political debate about bikes on Open Space in Marin.

    The cynical side of me believes that MCBC has used the controversy over the RTMP to build political capital with decision makers at the expense of increased access for mountain bikers. I know that MCBC is hyper concerned with their County, city, and other professional relationships, and hyper focused on their public image and messaging. I doubt MCBC would have put out any public statements or press releases without a strategic calculation on how it can help them achieve their goals with their East-West and North-South Greenway campaigns as well as SMART.
    Your theory is exactly what a former employee told me...

  67. #167
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    We've got really different impressions of what MCBC is. Yes, it's a broad organization with multiple goals. And the focus seems to be more on road/commute/kid safety (demographically, that makes sense). But the off-road program (let by our own NinerTom) isn't a sacrificial lamb. The people who work that program like singletrack just as much as the rest of us. The gains are slow, but not for lack of good faith.

    The real obstacle here is the willingness of a very small percentage of the population (footpeople, MAS, etc.) to sue local government agencies over open space decisions they don't like. MCBC worked really hard to bulletproof the RTMP process - to make sure it abided by open meeting laws, environmental laws, etc. I can't begin to tell you how much of a pain in the ass that had to be, and my hat's off to them for helping make it so. The RTMP may not create hundreds of miles of singletrack, but the gains should prove resistant to the usual bike hater attack.

  68. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKD View Post
    Here's a quick reaction. Police reports and investigative files may be exempted from disclosure, but the police cannot withhold the basic facts (who, what, when, where, why) of requests for assistance and incidents. There's case law supporting the required disclosure of this (County of Los Angeles v. Superior Court, 18 Cal.App.4th 588 (1993)) but I haven't dug into it to see how current it is.

    I've excerpted the relevant Gov Code language below, but any future public records act request should very clearly call out Cal. Gov. Code section 6254 (f)(2) and seek this basic info. The lack of a response from the Marin County sheriff's office is BS, but send it again in a narrower construction (and maybe a copy to your supervisor so the MCSO takes it seriously) and see if you get better results?



    6254. Except as provided in Sections 6254.7 and 6254.13, this
    chapter does not require the disclosure of any of the following
    records
    :

    ...

    (f) Records of complaints to, or investigations conducted by, or
    records of intelligence information or security procedures of, the
    office of the Attorney General and the Department of Justice, the
    Office of Emergency Services and any state or local police agency, or
    any investigatory or security files compiled by any other state or
    local police agency,
    or any investigatory or security files compiled
    by any other state or local agency for correctional, law enforcement,
    or licensing purposes. However, state and local law enforcement
    agencies shall disclose the names and addresses of persons involved
    in, or witnesses other than confidential informants to, the incident,
    the description of any property involved, the date, time, and
    location of the incident, all diagrams, statements of the parties
    involved in the incident, the statements of all witnesses, other than
    confidential informants, to the victims of an incident, or an
    authorized representative thereof, an insurance carrier against which
    a claim has been or might be made, and any person suffering bodily
    injury or property damage or loss, as the result of the incident
    caused by arson, burglary, fire, explosion, larceny, robbery,
    carjacking, vandalism, vehicle theft, or a crime as defined by
    subdivision (b) of Section 13951, unless the disclosure would
    endanger the safety of a witness or other person involved in the
    investigation, or unless disclosure would endanger the successful
    completion of the investigation or a related investigation. However,
    this division does not require the disclosure of that portion of
    those investigative files that reflects the analysis or conclusions
    of the investigating officer.

    Notwithstanding any other provision of this subdivision, state and
    local law enforcement agencies shall make public the following
    information
    , except to the extent that disclosure of a particular
    item of information would endanger the safety of a person involved in
    an investigation or would endanger the successful completion of the
    investigation or a related investigation:
    ...
    (2) Subject to the restrictions imposed by Section 841.5 of the
    Penal Code, the time, substance, and location of all complaints or
    requests for assistance received by the agency and the time and
    nature of the response thereto, including, to the extent the
    information regarding crimes alleged or committed or any other
    incident investigated is recorded, the time, date, and location of
    occurrence, the time and date of the report, the name and age of the
    victim, the factual circumstances surrounding the crime or incident,
    and a general description of any injuries, property, or weapons
    involved
    . The name of a victim of any crime defined by Section 220,
    FYI - One of the reasons the SO records division may not have responded might be that the request was not submitted in the correct manner. Law enforcement agencies have procedures the public must follow to obtain copies of records, under FOI or other access rights. Even though, as it has been stated, that they are required to respond within a certain amount of time if the request was not submitted in the correct manner they will consider themselves not bound by the governing code response time requirement (I have seen this stand in court in Placer County...I am sure it has happened elsewhere). Agencies may require a specific form to be submitted, a specific person be contacted, whatever...just a letter (such as the example Davey posted) may just be so much noise to the SO if they have a different manner in which the request must be submitted.

    Also, there will be a fee for the records requested. There is tried and true case law that allows for law enforcement to refuse fulfilling requests for records unless they have been paid for. This is another wrinkle that can keep the records from being released.

    Finally, be advised that when you request records from a law enforcement department and you are not a party to the incident recorded in the report (victim, suspect, defense, insurance company) in most cases all you may end up getting, under the requirements and provisions of the laws quoted by AKD, simple information that is no more informative than what has already been posted on the MTBR forums and published in the Marin IJ. There is a lot of leeway written into the laws, and the courts interpretations of those laws, that allow for redaction of almost the entire written incident report. Many requesters of police reports are quite surprised when they get back copies of reports with pages and pages of black marker covering all the juicy details and all they get is pretty much info contained in the dispatch log....stuff that would be broadcast over the air on the radio.

    Need to know, right to know...the FOI act doesnt always ensure you will get the whole story.
    "You're messing with my zen thing, man!"

  69. #169
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    For the record, I was the one that wrote and submitted the FOIA request that Davey copied above. Marin S.O. did respond —by phone— and told me that they would not release the findings of the investigation pursuant to those sections of code cited by AKD above. They were willing to release the "media" incident report; that being what was given to the Marin IJ and other media outlets at the time of the incident. As we already know the details of what the "victim" Pamela Reeves, said happened, it would have been a useless document. I told them I'd take it anyway and they said they'd leave a copy at the Records office, but after returning from out of town after 2 weeks, there was no copy waiting for me.

    Since we know what's on it, and having done quite a few FOIA's with federal and state agencies before —although none with a law enforcement organization or office— I suggested to other local advocates and riders that someone with legal knowledge take up the effort to obtain the full investigative report. There are legal methods to do so, but they are beyond my ability to perform. The one other person that said that they'd take a stab at it never returned my emails, and to date, no one else has stepped up. As I lack the legal expertise, and more importantly, the time, to deal with it, the effort is dead unless someone else takes over.

  70. #170
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    If I read the latest posts in this thread, my head might explode. I can't do it. Out.

    We just want to pedal our bicycles on singletrack trails. Is that so wrong??

  71. #171
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    The Marin Audubon Society is back at it again. Still saber rattling about a lawsuit:

    http://www.marinaudubon.org/pdf/The-Rail-Oct-2016.pdf

    The MCL is busy writing nasty grams and opposing recreation oh and bikes in wilderness:

    http://www.conservationleague.org/im...016_forweb.pdf

    The Marin Horse Council is opposed to anything involving a bicycle and would rather have bikes mix it up with cars on Sir Francis Drake than rerouted through their "private" public trails that are adjacent to a commercial stable.

    https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...-+Web+site.pdf

    Just another month in Marin county...

  72. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    Since we know what's on it, and having done quite a few FOIA's with federal and state agencies before —although none with a law enforcement organization or office— I suggested to other local advocates and riders that someone with legal knowledge take up the effort to obtain the full investigative report. There are legal methods to do so, but they are beyond my ability to perform.
    Of what methods do you speak? Seems to me from reading the Gov Code that we need the cyclist involved in the incident to request the full report, with the justification being his umbrella insurance policy needs to know there's no pending claim against him. Happy to throw my JD into the arena if that helps, but I'm not all that experienced with public records act requests.

  73. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKD View Post
    Of what methods do you speak? Seems to me from reading the Gov Code that we need the cyclist involved in the incident to request the full report, with the justification being his umbrella insurance policy needs to know there's no pending claim against him. Happy to throw my JD into the arena if that helps, but I'm not all that experienced with public records act requests.
    My understanding is that records can be released if the petitioner can claim that doing so would be to the benefit of the public. In this case, it could be argued that the release of the final investigation report of an incident that has exacerbated tensions among users of public lands in Marin County, and had led to further restrictions of access to a portion of the public would be beneficial; especially if —as has been hinted at by employees of MCOSD and/or the local LEO community— the investigation found that the alleged victim's account was fabricated or repeatedly altered during the investigation. Attorneys representing media and other entities in public policy have used such arguments successfully to obtain similar reports, or at least that is my understanding...

  74. #174
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    Davey, can you post that lady that said " I don't want to look out my window and see a teddy bear and a white cross" from another child being killed on the trail. She also said we all have braces on our brains, whatever that means. That was classic. The lady that said we are all drunk and stoned was good too but I feel a little sorry for her, shes old.
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  75. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    My understanding is that records can be released if the petitioner can claim that doing so would be to the benefit of the public. In this case, it could be argued that the release of the final investigation report of an incident that has exacerbated tensions among users of public lands in Marin County, and had led to further restrictions of access to a portion of the public would be beneficial; especially if —as has been hinted at by employees of MCOSD and/or the local LEO community— the investigation found that the alleged victim's account was fabricated or repeatedly altered during the investigation. Attorneys representing media and other entities in public policy have used such arguments successfully to obtain similar reports, or at least that is my understanding...
    Simply claiming the release of information in a police incident report would be of benefit to the public is not a legal reason for release of records in California. Release of exempt information from incident reports does get released sometimes upon direction of the court, but that actually does not happen as often as you might think.

    All of this is covered in California Government Code sections 6250-6270.5. Section 6254 covers the exemptions.

    I grabbed this from one of the larger law enforcement offices in the state, as it was readily available online and I did not wish to type everything up myself:

    GC 6254 specifies exemptions in order to balance the individual's right to privacy with the public's need for information. Items that will most likely be redacted from ***** Police Department public records are:

    Identifying juvenile information
    Identifying victim information associated with crimes to Penal Code Sections 261,264,264.1,273a,273d,286,288 or 289
    Identifying confidential informant information
    Criminal offender record information
    Information that may endanger the safety of a witness or the other person
    Information that may jeopardize an investigation, related investigation or law enforcement proceeding
    Any portion of the report that reflects analysis, recommendation or conclusion of the investigating officer
    Information that may disclose investigative techniques
    Information that may deprive a person of a fair trial
    Preliminary drafts, notes, or memorandums which are not retained in the ordinary course of business
    Records pertaining to pending litigation to which the city is a party until the litigation is adjudicated or settled
    Personnel, medical or similar files
    As I said before, most of what you will get when you make a records request and you are not a direct party to the incident report, their legal representation, or their insurance company will be "name, rank, serial number"....this includes the media. They will take the few facts they can obtain and report on it, fleshing out their story with conjecture....nothing to stop the media from doing that...they make sh*t up all the time.

    The one exception that many departments use to keep most report content from the public is the one that states "Any portion of the report that reflects analysis, recommendation or conclusion of the investigating officer" and if there is followup the one that states "Information that may disclose investigative techniques"...these just about cover all the content in a police incident report except for the what crime happened (code section), where it occurred, what date and time, victim name (unless under 18 or protected by code), factual circumstance of the incident, and if anyone was arrested who that person was and the arrest details(this is an interesting piece of info, as it changes over time, as the suspect arrest info usually can be released until the incident/crime/arrest has been adjudicated, afterward it becomes part of that subject's criminal history and therefore cannot be released.)
    "You're messing with my zen thing, man!"

  76. #176
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    Yeah, that has been my understanding. However there are instances where media has been able to access these reports through the courts. Thus my call for someone with the legal savvy to take a go at it, as I have neither the knowledge or time to do so. Thanks for the clarification though. I hope it gives others the knowledge they need if they face a similar situation.

  77. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    The Marin Audubon Society is back at it again. Still saber rattling about a lawsuit:

    http://www.marinaudubon.org/pdf/The-Rail-Oct-2016.pdf

    The MCL is busy writing nasty grams and opposing recreation oh and bikes in wilderness:

    http://www.conservationleague.org/im...016_forweb.pdf

    The Marin Horse Council is opposed to anything involving a bicycle and would rather have bikes mix it up with cars on Sir Francis Drake than rerouted through their "private" public trails that are adjacent to a commercial stable.

    https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...-+Web+site.pdf

    Just another month in Marin county...
    My advice?
    Keep poaching.
    Carry on...


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  78. #178
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    Hey Davey, if you know, exactly what trail does the Equestrian Newsletter refer to that was going to be the temporary re-route while work was taking place on the Old Railroad Grade fire road in that area? I've been doing some net searches but can't seem to hit on the magic combo of words to find any official announcements, etc, regarding this 'incident'.
    Cheers!
    Mike
    Oakland, CA
    2005 Jamis Exile
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  79. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by emjayel View Post
    Hey Davey, if you know, exactly what trail does the Equestrian Newsletter refer to that was going to be the temporary re-route while work was taking place on the Old Railroad Grade fire road in that area? I've been doing some net searches but can't seem to hit on the magic combo of words to find any official announcements, etc, regarding this 'incident'.
    It's old news. During the plunge reroute the county tried to find a way to get bikes from White Hill School to Brown Bridge, without using SFD blvd.

    There are some great connective trails near the plunge that would have served as excellent connectors. But of course the equestrians can't share...

    The county responded by not being complete a-holes about the route being closed during construction/seasoning post build. Completely unlike the process with 680...

    Closed for a year after completion? I think?

  80. #180
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    That would have been the Baywood Canyon Stable Trail, which was contemplated during installation of the bridge over the plunge, right?

    If so...good lord these horse folk are ridiculous. That's across SFD from the Porcupine exit from T-Ranch. I know the step-down at the very end of the trail is a good place to get a little rad (excellent sight lines, very little traffic, good run-out), but hucking all the way across SFD is extreme, even for our own Davey Simon.

  81. #181
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    You are correct AKD. Ridiculous alright!

  82. #182
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    It isn't ridiculous at all. It is what happens to people when they are entitled and have been given a better deal than the rest of the public. Exclusive access to public property from private property on public trails, that are in fact defacto private.

    Even though the public helps pay to construct and maintain these trails on public property the pubic is not authorized to use the trail. There is no parking for foot traffic and no access for bikes.

    Additionally equestrians behave poorly when asked to share not only because they have always been at the top of the food chain when it comes to access, right of way parking and private property access to public land. They behave poorly because land managers have treated them as a special class of trail user for the last 30 years or more.

    Consider the following direct message I received from a MCOSD law enforcement ranger, XXXXXXXXXXXXX

    Davey Simon
    7/31, 2:26am
    Davey Simon
    Nothing. Only one stable has a permit and they are the ones in big trouble with NPS.
    So you can see why I think there is a slight bias at Marin County Parks?
    And I'm being totally sarcastic when I say slight bias

    XXXXXXXXXXX
    7/31, 2:29am
    XXXXXXXXXXX
    Yeah. I didn't want to say it publicly but our old Assistant Directors who left this previous year or so were totally on horse side. So much so then restricted the Rangers from doing things

    They are gone now thank god Up until 2006 the Rangers couldn't cite for a horse violation


    Davey Simon
    7/31, 2:30am
    Davey Simon

    It is completely obvious. The more they claimed fairness the more I became a skeptic.
    That was pretty obvious too...
    Last edited by Davey Simon; 10-16-2016 at 09:48 PM.

  83. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    It isn't ridiculous at all. It is what happens to people when they are entitled and have been given a better deal than the rest of the public. Exclusive access to public property from private property on public trails, that are in fact defacto private.

    Even though the public helps pay to construct and maintain these trails on public property the pubic is not authorized to use the trail. There is no parking for foot traffic and no access for bikes.

    Additionally equestrians behave poorly when asked to share not only because they have always been at the top of the food chain when it comes to access, right of way parking and private property access to public land. They behave poorly because land managers have treated them as a special class of trail user for the last 30 years or more.

    Consider the following direct message I received from a MCOSD law enforcement ranger, Michael Warner:


    Davey Simon
    7/31, 2:26am
    Davey Simon
    Nothing. Only one stable has a permit and they are the ones in big trouble with NPS.
    So you can see why I think there is a slight bias at Marin County Parks?
    And I'm being totally sarcastic when I say slight bias

    Michael Warner
    7/31, 2:29am
    Michael Warner
    Yeah. I didn't want to say it publicly but our old Assistant Directors who left this previous year or so were totally on horse side. So much so then restricted the Rangers from doing things

    They are gone now thank god Up until 2006 the Rangers couldn't cite for a horse violation


    Davey Simon
    7/31, 2:30am
    Davey Simon

    It is completely obvious. The more they claimed fairness the more I became a skeptic.
    That was pretty obvious too...
    Sooo...what that back and forth with Ranger Warner tells us that the Assistant Directors were directing the rangers to practice selective enforcement of laws....which is pretty much an illegal act....
    "You're messing with my zen thing, man!"

  84. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bokchoicowboy View Post
    Sooo...what that back and forth with Ranger Warner tells us that the Assistant Directors were directing the rangers to practice selective enforcement of laws....which is pretty much an illegal act....
    I've been kicking my own ass for not going to law school for the last 6 months or so...

    I'd be all over this. Between "trail partners", a requirement of CEQA having a member group that intentionally faked an assault to create more trail conflict and MCOSD staff illegally directing rangers to selectively enforce laws. I'd think something legally could be done. Or am I incorrect? Are we just hostage to any whim of a land manger. Can bias run public land?

    In addition the illegal designation of Edgewood trail as a no bikes trial without a public process should be looked at in great detail.

  85. #185
    AKD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    I've been kicking my own ass for not going to law school for the last 6 months or so...
    I think you made the right choice. We all wish we were pilots.

  86. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    It isn't ridiculous at all. It is what happens to people when they are entitled and have been given a better deal than the rest of the public. Exclusive access to public property from private property on public trails, that are in fact defacto private.

    Even though the public helps pay to construct and maintain these trails on public property the pubic is not authorized to use the trail. There is no parking for foot traffic and no access for bikes.

    Additionally equestrians behave poorly when asked to share not only because they have always been at the top of the food chain when it comes to access, right of way parking and private property access to public land. They behave poorly because land managers have treated them as a special class of trail user for the last 30 years or more.

    Consider the following direct message I received from a MCOSD law enforcement ranger, Michael Warner:


    Davey Simon
    7/31, 2:26am
    Davey Simon
    Nothing. Only one stable has a permit and they are the ones in big trouble with NPS.
    So you can see why I think there is a slight bias at Marin County Parks?
    And I'm being totally sarcastic when I say slight bias

    Michael Warner
    7/31, 2:29am
    Michael Warner
    Yeah. I didn't want to say it publicly but our old Assistant Directors who left this previous year or so were totally on horse side. So much so then restricted the Rangers from doing things

    They are gone now thank god Up until 2006 the Rangers couldn't cite for a horse violation


    Davey Simon
    7/31, 2:30am
    Davey Simon

    It is completely obvious. The more they claimed fairness the more I became a skeptic.
    That was pretty obvious too...
    So the Rangers are tools of these a s s hats too???
    I mean I knew, but not to this extent.
    Absolutely disgusting.
    How can you fight this when the whole establishment is against us???

  87. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGordo View Post
    So the Rangers are tools of these a s s hats too???
    I mean I knew, but not to this extent.
    Absolutely disgusting.
    How can you fight this when the whole establishment is against us???
    You can't. That is why only 6% of the narrow trails are open to bikes in Marin.

  88. #188
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    Okay, so...bear with me a moment, please...Monte Kruger in his equestrian newsletter states "We need to push the point that user safety is second only to environmental protection . I know I keep harping on these points, but this issue is important for all equestrians even if you are not a trail rider, and I’ll explain why . Last week a message went out to Baywood Canyon Equestrian Center that Marin County Parks would like to temporarily re-route the Old Grade fire road for mountain bikes as the Parks Department was going to be working on the road and wanted to give the mountain bikers an alterative route as they exited from Tamarancho . The alternative route would have dropped mountain bikes down a steep grade right on top of Baywood Canyon’s outdoor arena where jumping lessons and arena riding take place and where horses are turned out in paddocks ."

    Q: From the map at any rate, Tamarancho is not at all near to the trail and barn he's referring to so why would mtbikers be re-routed across SFD so far away from Tamarancho boundaries in order to be dropped into Fairfax?

    Also, while I haven't been to the trail in question, the map certainly looks like it does a number of switchbacks and is not designed such that it would 'drop mtbikers down a steep grade' nor 'right on top of' in a fashion that would cause perilous harm to anyone. Is this the case or does the map not tell the whole story?

    My point here is to continue to try and educate myself on the mysterious goings on of the minds of the opposed.
    Cheers!
    Mike
    Oakland, CA
    2005 Jamis Exile
    2011 Trek/Gary Fisher HiFi

  89. #189
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    The reroute affected an important route to Tamarancho. Not everyone drives to the trailhead. This was a crucial route for riders that wanted to get to Brown bridge from Fairfax. It avoids a major road and is indeed a route to T-ranch. I used the route to access the San Geronimo valley when I lived in Fairfax as well. Needless to say it is a very important connector.

    I've never used the trail in question as I have no desire to wind up on the front page of the MarinIJ. I loathe being near the stables, for a variety of reasons. Apparently the trail is quite nice. In a typical public land management situation it would likely be a shared trail, at least a even/odd one.

    But now we have the plunge reroute and pimp ass bridge, which I view as one of the few beneficial adds from Measure A money.

    Anyway if you lived out here likely you'd understand the reality on the ground a bit better. Most of the Measure A money has been spent on law enforcement and new toys for said law enforcement. The incident log is record of that. 2006-2011 there were 4 bike citations. In 2014 there were 94 according to the Footpeople report. A huge increase but a very small number of tickets overall. There were over 400 off leash dog citations in 2014 alone.

    The MHC newsletter is important. It seems that the equestrians continue to have defacto private access to trails on public land. It gets worse when one considers that even in the case of a temporary safety issue such as a reroute of a popular trail forcing bike traffic onto a major road, the equestrians are still given exclusive access and preferential treatment.
    Last edited by Davey Simon; 10-15-2016 at 10:40 AM.

  90. #190
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    MMWD actual crime stats for September:

    STATS
    Reports
    38 Crime reports/ Incidents taken
    23—
    Vandalism 4—
    Medical
    5—
    Misc.
    PC 1—
    Alleged Assault
    5—other
    Citations: 98 citations issued
    12– Dog Off Leash
    1– Swimming
    6– Bike on Trail
    7– Comply with Signs
    72– Vehicles
    Additionally
    2 searches for missing hikers.

    Found here page 8:

    http://www.marinwater.org/AgendaCent...a/10182016-385

    As you can see cycling is one of the very small issues affecting MMWD space. The amount of emphasis that MMWD peace officers and S.O. deputies spend running around Portero Medow, Bootjack and Northside trail, sometimes as late as 930pm or even later is completely unwarranted.

  91. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKD View Post
    These folks won't negotiate, and they don't see that they're about to go down in flames while they destroy whatever public support they have left.
    Unfortunately they do not even care much about public support, as we found out dealing with local Sierra Club and Audubon and Green Hills misantropes while working on SFPUC watershed access (https://www.facebook.com/opentheSFwatershed/) - which unlike Marin is completely closed off, even fireroads..
    They worked their way in, and mooch off established brands to push their petty, misguided, and myopic anti-access agendas. Threat of incessant litigation was enough for SF supervisors to back off applying some pressure on SFPUC.

  92. #192
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    If Park Watch Report, The Footpeople's Incident Report form, MCOSD's incident report form and MMWD's incident hotline are not enough: this crap pops up on my radar.

    Parks and Open Space Concerns
    Parks and Open Space Deputy Matt Larson from Marin County Sheriff's Office · 1m ago

    Good morning. I wanted to take a minute to introduce myself. My name is Matt Larson and I am your deputy sheriff assigned to protect the Marin County Parks and Open Space District Lands. My primary duty is resource protection and keeping our open spaces safe. My partner Michelle Wagner and I are here every day. If you run across concerns regarding anything related to our trails, please don't hesitate to call the Sheriff's Office at 415-473-2311 or 911 to get our response. There is no issue too big or too small. If one of us isn't nearby, one of the nine Open Space District Rangers is likely nearby to provide assistance. Thanks and please enjoy our incredible parks and trails in this beautiful county.
    Shared with Marin County Sheriff's Office in Crime & Safety


    Emphasis added by me on the resource protection safety mission of LEOs assigned to MCOSD land. Seems like more selective enforcement of rules. What happened to MCOSD's recreation mission?

    Sheriff Matt Larson is soliciting Next Door and asking users to report issues? Has he sent this email out to the A4B list? Nope not that I know of.

    Ya'll know who is on Next Door correct? This person:

    Get to know your Marin County mountain biker hater-5bc.jpg
    Last edited by Davey Simon; 10-17-2016 at 06:23 AM.

  93. #193
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    I'm sure this will be used to maintain the status quo of zero narrow trail access on MMWD property:

    https://ww2.kqed.org/science/2016/10...and-a-warning/

    Zero narrow trail access for bikes, 60% plus for equestrians including stables with defacto private access trails into public space.

    Yeah no double standard there...

  94. #194
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    The report found the single biggest long-term threat facing Mt. Tam is climate change.

  95. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by vernonator View Post
    The report found the single biggest long-term threat facing Mt. Tam is climate change.
    And the biggest issue in 2009 facing MCOSD open space according to the RTMP survey, was off leash dogs. The incident log showed there were no reported incidents of trail conflict from 2006-2011. We vote in measure A to provide funds for recreation access and:

    look what MCOSD has been doing over the last 7 years. LIDAR guns for off leash dogs? Nope those LIDAR guns are for you Vernon and all the student athletes on the San Dominico team. I've seen the Redwood NICA team stopped because of speed measured by the measure A LIDAR guns and I can say it was the worst use of measure A funds I've seen so far.

    I'm sure One Tam will find some way to claim that putting the bike on the back of my car and driving to Tahoe to go off road cycling on a narrow trail, is somehow good for global warming. Because you know, we are "loving the mountain to death."

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