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  1. #1
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    E bikes at Demo? Wtf?

    Rolled up to Demo this morning and what do I see? A guy with a massive quasi-motorcycle Santa Cruz e-bike. I guess this is the new normal? We should expect the trails to be torn up?
    "Whereas Motoman's bike looks like an industrial, TinkerToy experiment gone horribly wrong." - Aquaholic

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  2. #2
    Captain One Lung SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoman711 View Post
    Rolled up to Demo this morning and what do I see? A guy with a massive quasi-motorcycle Santa Cruz e-bike. I guess this is the new normal? We should expect the trails to be torn up?
    If it is a normal e-bike I doubt it will get trashed. I watched a guy on a Hai Bike e-bike fly up the hill between Butcher and 3rd Divide this weekend. He didn't tear anything up but he was riding like there was no hill. It was pretty incredible!

  3. #3
    middle ring single track
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    Photos or it didn't happen.
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  4. #4
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    Every time I climb up Sulfur Springs, I wish I was on an e-bike

  5. #5
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    The lack of outrage is disappointing.
    "Whereas Motoman's bike looks like an industrial, TinkerToy experiment gone horribly wrong." - Aquaholic

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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoman711 View Post
    The lack of outrage is disappointing.
    a 250w Pedal Assist ebike will not have enough torque to spin the rear tire loose on a climb.... so the idea of it "tearing up the trail" on the way up the hill is not a valid one.

    On the way down it is not really heavier than someone who shuttled up with a heavy DH bike and rode down it.

    You said Santa Cruz eBike.... did you happen to find out how much wattage it had, was it pedal assist or thumb throttle? Need more info.
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  7. #7
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    Im sorry that seeing other people riding their bikes in the forest ruined your day

  8. #8
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    Tear up what, the fire road climbs?
    Demo is already rose by a million people every weekend.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    You said Santa Cruz eBike.... did you happen to find out how much wattage it had, was it pedal assist or thumb throttle? Need more info.
    What am I missing, I didn't think Santa Cruz ever made an e bike. My primary concern with people on e-bikes is their shitty attitudes, not what they're riding.

    Granted my encounters with them have been limited, but I'd had better trail interaction/ettiqute from horse people than e-bike riders.

  10. #10
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    Ok, where do we set the line on wattage? 500? 3000? Powered bikes will tear up the trails more. Anybody who has ridden a motorcycle off road knows that. Heavier bikes going down also cause more trail damage as they have to brake harder and generally tear more stuff up. I thought hollister hills was designated for motor-cycles
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  11. #11
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    I dont see anything wrong with pedal assist bikes eventhough i have no desire for one at this time. Some ppl have no choice due to age, health issues, or injury. If an ebike allows them to be outdoors and riding then why not. Sure, PRs will goto shit but who cares. Too many ppl worry about what others are doing too much.

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  12. #12
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    Unless you're a gimp e-bikes are still outlaw in Demo.

    If one cares to do the math e-bikes are about 15% more deteriorating to trails.

    "About 15%" is fairly insignificant; but what needs to be taken into account is that Joe Blow on an e-bike might be able to session a loop 3 or 4 times whereas while on a honest bike Joe Blow might only do one lap.

    (Where like at Demo to repeat a section climbing is required)

    (3 or 4 minus 1) X 1.15 = 2.3 to 3.45 times more wear and tear. Very significant.
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  13. #13
    middle ring single track
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jukas View Post
    What am I missing, I didn't think Santa Cruz ever made an e bike. My primary concern with people on e-bikes is their shitty attitudes, not what they're riding.

    Granted my encounters with them have been limited, but I'd had better trail interaction/ettiqute from horse people than e-bike riders.
    Might be something like this E-Bike Pic Thread



    FWIW that kit (motor, controller, etc.) costs about $350 and between 3 to 5 benjamins will get you the battery. Not a legal California e-bike.
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  14. #14
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    that is the beast exactly. Those mid-drive motors are available up to 1000 watts IIRC
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  15. #15
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    ^^ I miss seeing Aquaholic at Noble!

    I don't hate e-bikes. I just feel better when they're not around.

    They'll be flocking like locusts to Demo, legal or not. Maybe Calfire will contract out to Midpen. Radar guns, tickets, and tazers will take care of the problem!
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  16. #16
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    Not an e-bike hater at all. I am happy to see people riding them around on the road. I have actually considered getting a kit for my cargo bike. However, I don't think motorized bikes should be used on mountain bike trails.
    "Whereas Motoman's bike looks like an industrial, TinkerToy experiment gone horribly wrong." - Aquaholic

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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by griz View Post
    Every time I climb up Sulfur Springs, I wish I was on an e-bike
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  18. #18
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    Motoman- I'm with ya, brother. People who say "so what" either haven't done any advocacy work and/or aren't concerned with the big picture. E-bikes are already being used to keep us off trails, e.g., wilderness parks. Also, they're already being altered to produce more watts, and they'll just get lighter/faster in the future. Bah!

    Also, if you're giving people with health issues a free pass how are they going to get themselves out when their bike dies? Call in an e-heli?! Everybody doesn't get to do everything everywhere forever. A good man always knows his limitations.

    In other news: BMX is on ESPN right now (X Games)!
    Last edited by dirtvert; 07-14-2017 at 12:19 PM.
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  19. #19
    ol'guy who says hi &waves
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    Lots of opinions and speculation. This 65yr old mtbr wants some stand up in court evidence of trail destruction or a shuttle ride to the top.
    .

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoman711 View Post
    that is the beast exactly. Those mid-drive motors are available up to 1000 watts IIRC
    750 - 7500w commonly.

    I think that's a 3kw Cyclone in the pic, but I could be mistaken.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoman711 View Post
    that is the beast exactly. Those mid-drive motors are available up to 1000 watts IIRC
    Not seeing the other side it's hard to be sure but AFAIK that unit is stock 3000 watts with a 72 volt battery. Of course it could just as easily be programmed (with an option) to be a legal 750 watt unit. (not likely)

    Still illegal unless operated by a gimp (who BTW needs to have a letter from the forest manager). I suppose if rider was said gimp with said letter then 3KW might be legal as an OPDMD at Demo.
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  22. #22
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    That is a monster. https://lunacycle.com/cyclone-XL-7500w-ebike-middrive/ 7500 watts equates to ~ 10HP. You absolutely would not need to pedal with that on your bike. I didn't even know that existed.
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  23. #23
    Paper or plastic?
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    Based on the erosion on ridge trail over the last 10 years, regular bikes can do plenty on their own.

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  24. #24
    Fat Skis/Fat Tires
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    You're in California. Everything that is good and sane is or will be outlawed; everything asinine and unsustainable is or will be embraced...there's no sense in fighting it.

  25. #25
    Beer Please! SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by rangerbait View Post
    You're in California. Everything that is good and sane is or will be outlawed; everything asinine and unsustainable is or will be embraced...there's no sense in fighting it.
    Funny I hear that sort of thing from many who have never been to this state. Most that visit love it here and come back, many of those end up moving here.... It is worth a few odd laws the flyover states don't like.
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  26. #26
    middle ring single track
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    What would be preferred:

    Shuttle Smith given access to the the bottom of Demo Flow?

    E-bike concessionaire(s) staged at the bottom of Sulfur?

    Or something like this:

    E bikes at Demo? Wtf?-demoyarderlift.jpg
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoman711 View Post
    The lack of outrage is disappointing.
    I'm outraged that I'm the 1st person to call out the irony that a guy named motoman711 is the guy who is most against motorized bikes!

    That aside, I don't like the idea of other people riding e-bikes at Demo, but I know I would love it if it was me.

  28. #28
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    Why don't you ask him?
    https://www.strava.com/athletes/18300541
    https://www.strava.com/activities/1083176887

    (coincidentally, this is the same guy that posted in the e-bike thread: E-Bike Pic Thread- Mtbr.com)

  29. #29
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    All great options... Of course we all could just ride the trails we are capable of riding. If we aren't fit enough to get to the top of the hill then we build fitness by riding other trails until we are ready.
    I don't know about you guys but I don't ride Demo to ride on silky smooth trails and get pushed to the top of the hill by a 3000 watt (!!!!!!!) motor. Pay with the pain
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  30. #30
    Paper or plastic?
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoman711 View Post
    All great options... Of course we all could just ride the trails we are capable of riding. If we aren't fit enough to get to the top of the hill then we build fitness by riding other trails until we are ready.
    I don't know about you guys but I don't ride Demo to ride on silky smooth trails and get pushed to the top of the hill by a 3000 watt (!!!!!!!) motor. Pay with the pain
    Good for you! When I am too old to ride under my own power I will get a pedal assist ebike.

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  31. #31
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    Of course he Strava'd it
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  32. #32
    middle ring single track
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoman711 View Post
    Of course he Strava'd it
    Do you want to flag the ride or should I? Strava does have an e-bike category which is where he should have posted. Probably blissfully unaware of his transgressions; perhaps ESL?
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  33. #33
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    I take back my comment. These guys are all douches. Let's hit them with an EMP gun.

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  34. #34
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    Slap a speaker on that bike for ultimate douchebaggery.
    I'm not sure how this works.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    Do you want to flag the ride or should I? Strava does have an e-bike category which is where he should have posted. Probably blissfully unaware of his transgressions; perhaps ESL?
    It's charitable to even call it an ebike, and I'm sure he doesn't have a clue.

    Not the same bike, but a similar setup.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VF0WS0Ph94

  36. #36
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    Im not familiar with the ego kit. Is it a pedal assist or is it straight up motorized? 3400w sounds high.

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  37. #37
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    Exactly my point... That guy should not have been on those trails.
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  38. #38
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    I almost got hit by an e-biker on some local trails a few weeks ago. The guy comes cruising out of a covered portion of trail into an opening as I am approaching. He is not looking up, bike is cruising then he sees me. He had no idea what to do. He started to swerve one way then another. I had enough time to swing out of the way as he passed without a word.

    I don't mind that these people will cruise trails faster than me and I do not feel we will see mad erosion from the heavier bikes but I do fear that people that have little to no idea of trail etiquette can move at a pace that their skill sets cannot match. That type of behavior puts the rest of us in danger and also does not look at all good for the biking community as a whole. An e-biker that buzzes by equestrians or folks out hiking is still a biker to them and will continue to fuel their dislike for our sport.

  39. #39
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    A pro cyclist can sustain 400-500 watts while climbing. The sprinters this week were hitting 1800 watts at the end of one of the sprint stages in the TdF. There is no need to pedal that bike other than trying to save the battery.
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  40. #40
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoman711 View Post
    Ok, where do we set the line on wattage? 500? 3000?
    I say under 750 is OK.

    Quote Originally Posted by motoman711 View Post
    That is a monster. https://lunacycle.com/cyclone-XL-7500w-ebike-middrive/ 7500 watts equates to ~ 10HP. You absolutely would not need to pedal with that on your bike. I didn't even know that existed.
    That is not an e-bike. That is an electric motorcycle.

    Still better than a regular motorcycle, but that should not be on the non-motorized trails.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    I say under 750 is OK.
    666

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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Funny I hear that sort of thing from many who have never been to this state. Most that visit love it here and come back, many of those end up moving here.... It is worth a few odd laws the flyover states don't like.
    I'm 5th generation CA, broski...lived there for 38 of my 41 years.

  43. #43
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoman711 View Post
    Pay with the pain
    That is not a good argument.

    Impact and danger to others is an argument. E-bikes pass it, motorcycles don't.

  44. #44
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    LOL, Love it. I used to ride Motocross, Hare Scrambles, Desert Races. I rode at the Tillamook Burn for years and years. That's why I know about trail erosion. The ruts can get seriously nasty.
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    It's charitable to even call it an ebike, and I'm sure he doesn't have a clue.

    Not the same bike, but a similar setup.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VF0WS0Ph94
    That thing has got the most annoying sound i have ever heard! Soon that's all you'll hear in the nice peaceful woods, whining e-bikes but whatever looks like they are here and getting more popular, as granddaddy always said, too each their own!

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoman711 View Post
    Ok, where do we set the line on wattage? 500? 3000? Powered bikes will tear up the trails more. Anybody who has ridden a motorcycle off road knows that. Heavier bikes going down also cause more trail damage as they have to brake harder and generally tear more stuff up. I thought hollister hills was designated for motor-cycles
    So by this logic my friend that weighs 260lbs shouldn't be allowed to ride because he causes more trail damage?

    Just for the record I'm not against pedal assist bikes on our trails, just motorized bicycles.
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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacksonlui View Post
    Im not familiar with the ego kit. Is it a pedal assist or is it straight up motorized? 3400w sounds high.

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    It's just got a throttle, one you get past a certain point, no one bothers with PAS. Even with legal (<750w) kit bikes, many people run both.

    Basically, high powered ebikes are noisy, lower powered ones are not, so I wouldn't expect to hear very many.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spokeman View Post
    That thing has got the most annoying sound i have ever heard! Soon that's all you'll hear in the nice peaceful woods, whining e-bikes but whatever looks like they are here and getting more popular, as granddaddy always said, too each their own!
    I agree. That's damn annoying, but I also hate loud freewheels that you can hear a mile away. Best mod to my bike is my Onyx hub. Blissful silence while bombing down a trail!
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    It's charitable to even call it an ebike, and I'm sure he doesn't have a clue.

    Not the same bike, but a similar setup.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VF0WS0Ph94
    I doubt he's clueless. His rides have been flagged so many times I bet he just doesn't give an eff.

  50. #50
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    Banned for showing Boobies.

  51. #51
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    Should comment on his strava.

    I9 hubs ftw. Like it loud

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  52. #52
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    Have no problem with ebikes as long as they aren't the noisy motorized type and not posting that shit to Strava.

    Strava and ebikes seem to be the most argued subjects on this forum, but both have their purpose. One of the selling points for Strava is the ability to compare your performance and challenge yourself to ride better and harder. ebike posts to strava dilute the value.

    And to all those snide remarks that not liking an ebike means you hated a guy today who was on his bike in the forest ... pretty ****ing please, not everyone on a bike should be put on a pedestal cuz they're out enjoying nature. Getting on a bike is not carte blanche to be a big douchebag.

  53. #53
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    In regards to the 3KW e-moto guy riding at Demo and posting on Strava; his ride was flagged (not by me) and before it was taken offline Mr Fantastic commented something like "oops I had meant to log that ride as private".

    B.S.

    Yeah, well log to Stava as an e-bike activity and you can publicly bask in all the glory that provides.
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  54. #54
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    I did some more reading on the 3.4kw ego kit and this isnt an ebike. Its a motorized vehicle. It shouldnt be and not supposed to be allowed on trails. This thing can go over 40mph.

    That kind of speed can really hurt someone.

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  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by FullBladdy View Post
    I don't mind that these people will cruise trails faster than me and I do not feel we will see mad erosion from the heavier bikes but I do fear that people that have little to no idea of trail etiquette can move at a pace that their skill sets cannot match. That type of behavior puts the rest of us in danger and also does not look at all good for the biking community as a whole. An e-biker that buzzes by equestrians or folks out hiking is still a biker to them and will continue to fuel their dislike for our sport.
    A well-reasoned and thoughtful concern.

    Not to worry though, the pro e-bike crowd will just ignore it.
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  56. #56
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacksonlui View Post
    I did some more reading on the 3.4kw ego kit and this isnt an ebike. Its a motorized vehicle. It shouldnt be and not supposed to be allowed on trails. This thing can go over 40mph.

    That kind of speed can really hurt someone.

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    I agree that that is not an ebike, but on the other hand, even I can exceed 40mph on some downhills.

  57. #57
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    Pretty much every concern raised sounds like the same BS that we hear from the equestrians, et. al. When MTBrs complain about how other MTBrs ride their MTBs.. well, who needs equestrians.
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    The problem I have with E bikes/mopeds and even shuttling in general is they may not do that much more damage than a pedal bike per run but the rider would make more runs than he would if he/she would do if they had to earn their turns and thus it is not only a heavier bike but also one not capable of necessarily getting to the goods with out assist using the trails. It just isn't mountain biking, if they are at a resort or somewhere you can ride a moto than all the power to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trespinero View Post
    The problem I have with E bikes/mopeds and even shuttling in general is they may not do that much more damage than a pedal bike per run but the rider would make more runs than he would if he/she would do if they had to earn their turns and thus it is not only a heavier bike but also one not capable of necessarily getting to the goods with out assist using the trails. It just isn't mountain biking, if they are at a resort or somewhere you can ride a moto than all the power to them.
    In other words, you are saying that too many bikes create erosion. Sounds like a bike hater argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by burndtjamb View Post
    Why don't you ask him?
    https://www.strava.com/athletes/18300541
    https://www.strava.com/activities/1083176887

    (coincidentally, this is the same guy that posted in the e-bike thread: E-Bike Pic Thread- Mtbr.com)
    Considering he rides his motorcycle about 10X less than I ride my bicycle, I don't care about this guy. He's just another fat guy with more money than time. The motorcycle industry should try to make a few bucks off him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiskare View Post
    Pretty much every concern raised sounds like the same BS that we hear from the equestrians, et. al. When MTBrs complain about how other MTBrs ride their MTBs.. well, who needs equestrians.
    First, e-bikes are not MTBs---they're electric bicycles if they meet certain California guidelines. Otherwise they're just motorcycles of some flavor. I happen to like motorcycles but they're not appropriate for just anywhere. (Kind of like wanting to run a Jetski on a 1 acre lake in a city park)

    But let's for a minute pretend that e-bikes are MTB's; and a certain land manager has drawn a line that stipulates that MTBs with motors are not permitted on certain trails. Should not the MTB community work with the land manager? Call out the scofflaws until such time rules might be changed?

    The dude in the OP has a "MTB" with 10X the power of the base rating of a Levo. Are you saying he shouldn't be ostracized? (Where not even Levo's are permitted?)
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    In other words, you are saying that too many bikes create erosion. Sounds like a bike hater argument.

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    Too many of any users create wear and tear on trails; accepting the truth doesn't make one a hater. Rather than playing the hater card it would be better support trail maintenance activities. Like in this case give something to MBoSC.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    I agree that that is not an ebike, but on the other hand, even I can exceed 40mph on some downhills.
    Now imagine a guy coming uphill at 40mph when you are coming down the same trail.
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    I do not get this whole ebike thing what a lazy generation

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    It's charitable to even call it an ebike, and I'm sure he doesn't have a clue.

    Not the same bike, but a similar setup.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VF0WS0Ph94
    Wow, is that rider clueless! Now he has more power though and can shred the gnar!

    I remember back in the halcyon days of mountain biking when magazines would have pictures of families riding in picturesque mountain meadow. But reality was harsh as very few found it interesting enough to pay the price to get up to those elevations.

    I had no problem with peoples express and freddy laker, etc...as the air travel system was a government protected monopoly for the rich and business travelers. Opening it up to the "rabble" was justified and a benefit to the public. But this is like the worst in a opposite sense, i.e., taking away any incentive to try hard or compete for those who are otherwise able-bodied. However, If they stick to motorized trails I have no problem at all--go for it, at least you are outside.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Now imagine a guy coming uphill at 40mph when you are coming down the same trail.
    Plenty of trails where motos are legal, and I have not heard about actual accidents of that nature.

    But as I said, there is an easy and clear distinction of what is an ebike, and what is electric motorcycle, and I agree that motorcycles should not be on most busy recreational trails.

    And if land manager sets other restrictions, they certainly should not be publicly flaunted.

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    If you want a great place to ride an e-bike try Hollister Hills not sure if they're allowed but it's an awesome place to ride a motorcycle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Plenty of trails where motos are legal, and I have not heard about actual accidents of that nature.

    But as I said, there is an easy and clear distinction of what is an ebike, and what is electric motorcycle, and I agree that motorcycles should not be on most busy recreational trails.

    And if land manager sets other restrictions, they certainly should not be publicly flaunted.
    Most OHV areas moto ST is directional; and yes I have been involved in a head-on in spite of this.

    I thought it was amusing enough to tell the story here Blind corners
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insaneduane View Post
    If you want a great place to ride an e-bike try Hollister Hills not sure if they're allowed but it's an awesome place to ride a motorcycle

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    Ebike is not a motorcycle and would not ride well on those trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Ebike is not a motorcycle and would not ride well on those trails.
    I fully understand that but like the sign say on some of these Trails no motorized vehicles.

    Mountain bikers are taking enough crap and sooner or later someone's going to get run over and hurt bad, or worse. And what do you think the response will be from the authorities when this happens? My guess would be no more mountain bikes.

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  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    Most OHV areas moto ST is directional; and yes I have been involved in a head-on in spite of this.

    I thought it was amusing enough to tell the story here Blind corners
    Low power ebikes do not behave any different from regular ones.

    I do not own one, nor do I plan to own one in the foreseeable future, but I firmly believe that access decisions must be made based on actual measurable impact and risk, not on perceptions and feelings. As the latter is used against regular human powered recreation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Plenty of trails where motos are legal, and I have not heard about actual accidents of that nature.

    But as I said, there is an easy and clear distinction of what is an ebike, and what is electric motorcycle, and I agree that motorcycles should not be on most busy recreational trails.

    And if land manager sets other restrictions, they certainly should not be publicly flaunted.
    Yes, and you can hear them a lot easier than a brushless electric motor.

    Not to mention many OHV trails are directional.
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  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    Too many of any users create wear and tear on trails; accepting the truth doesn't make one a hater. Rather than playing the hater card it would be better support trail maintenance activities. Like in this case give something to MBoSC.
    Just saying that using the ebike (not the motorcycle contraption in this thread) creates too much erosion because you do more laps argument is self defeating. That's the exact argument used by haters against us. The only thing that really worries me is newbies getting in over their head and having no etiquette. Older experienced riders will be fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Just saying that using the ebike (not the motorcycle contraption in this thread) creates too much erosion because you do more laps argument is self defeating. That's the exact argument used by haters against us. The only thing that really worries me is newbies getting in over their head and having no etiquette. Older experienced riders will be fine.

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    I'd disagree based on my real world experience, not just speculation. More laps per rider is significant to the land mangers I deal with, they already completely rely on volunteers for all maintenance.

    I've never heard it used as an argument against bikes and I've heard a lot of them. Number 1 is speed, number 2 is speed + being silent startles other users.

    It's not super recent, but it provides insight into what concerns the people that actually make the decisions.

    http://b.3cdn.net/bikes/8834549e2b0e..._qum6b48z6.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    I'd disagree based on my real world experience, not just speculation. More laps per rider is significant to the land mangers I deal with, they already completely rely on volunteers for all maintenance.

    I've never heard it used as an argument against bikes and I've heard a lot of them. Number 1 is speed, number 2 is speed + being silent startles other users.

    It's not super recent, but it provides insight into what concerns the people that actually make the decisions.

    http://b.3cdn.net/bikes/8834549e2b0e..._qum6b48z6.pdf
    More laps per user is equal to more users. So now we're saying that we don't want more cyclists?

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  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    More laps per user is equal to more users. So now we're saying that we don't want more cyclists?
    Exactly. We should not be making arguments that are not just a conjecture, but can also be used essentially verbatim against cycling access.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    Should not the MTB community work with the land manager? Call out the scofflaws until such time rules might be changed?

    No, unless the person is otherwise a douchebag. In that case he should be 'called out' regardless.

    Are you saying he shouldn't be ostracized? (Where not even Levo's are permitted?)
    Yes, he should not be ostracized. Who made you the judge?

    As soon as we become more about the rules than the experience we lose what has always been awesome about MTBrs. Remember folks, we were hated too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    More laps per user is equal to more users. So now we're saying that we don't want more cyclists?

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    Nope, I'm saying you're now quickly forced to manage the impact of more users. If 5 years from now, 25% of the riding population is on ebikes and riding 2 x 3 times as far on a typical ride, you need to figure out how to deal with that. Some people think emtbs will also bring significant new riders into the sport, but like you, I think the vast majority will be existing riders. I don't think there will be a huge influx of new riders. It's naive to think that riders of emtbs will be any different than mtb riders, there won't be a big uptick in volunteers or donations, a very small percentage of any user group helps out, and if it's the same mtb guys who don't help now riding emtbs, nothing will change.

    My point is, to ignore that impact and pass it along to the people that are already doing the work, who in most cases can barely cope as it is, is a failed policy and will only lead to land mangers saying no. Why would they bother?

    Personally, I wouldn't mind less people on the trails, it's pretty crowded around here. We keep building more trails and those get filled up too.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiskare View Post
    Yes, he should not be ostracized. Who made you the judge?

    As soon as we become more about the rules than the experience we lose what has always been awesome about MTBrs. Remember folks, we were hated too.
    I'm the judge because I have the exact same set-up on an e-moto as the dude in the OP. That rig falls in the motorcycle category. At some point if a enough MTBers don't follow the rules we lose Demo as a riding area. That's already been hinted at by the land manager. We "were" hated? Think again.
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    I don't think they're ever going to accept mountain bikes on their precious Trails.

    But regardless of this they do need to share just like we need to be more cautious when riding these trails.

    My idea is to have odd and even days one day the parks open to the mountain bikers only, and the next day it's open to hikers only. Imagine being at demo forest with absolutely no hikers in it how fun would that be? same thing would go for the hiker a day at demo with no mountain bikes around.
    I think this could work out well. Cuz let's face it bicycles and hikers don't mix even if you are courteous.

    Do you guys think this is a crazy idea?

    Duane out

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    Quote Originally Posted by Insaneduane View Post
    I don't think they're ever going to accept mountain bikes on their precious Trails.

    But regardless of this they do need to share just like we need to be more cautious when riding these trails.

    My idea is to have odd and even days one day the parks open to the mountain bikers only, and the next day it's open to hikers only. Imagine being at demo forest with absolutely no hikers in it how fun would that be? same thing would go for the hiker a day at demo with no mountain bikes around.
    I think this could work out well. Cuz let's face it bicycles and hikers don't mix even if you are courteous.

    Do you guys think this is a crazy idea?

    Duane out

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    Huh?
    I have never once seen a hiker on Braille or Flow.

  82. #82
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    I ran into one on Cinderella yesterday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Based on the erosion on ridge trail over the last 10 years, regular bikes can do plenty on their own.

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    Can anyone educate me on how minimal mtb erosion is relevant in a forest logged with heavy machinery? I am not being cynical, I just don't get it. I can't stop thinking about sawpit (and other trails, if they even existed).

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    I've been hitting Joaquin Miller a lot and I don't remember Chaparral being so bad, plus all the stairs that are in it now back in the late eighties that trail used to flow
    And then there are sections that are all rocks now pretty sure hikers didn't cause that.
    Cinderella doesn't have as much damage but there are jumps there that were never there before. But it too has taken a beating. But think about it every time you skid your back tire you dig a hole you loosen dirt that dirt stays there loose on top of the hard pack, then the rains come and wash that dirt down the hill that is if it's deep enough to flow otherwise its sits as mud and hopefully gets repacked.
    I used to ride Mount Tam more than any other place because all my friends lived in Marin I have not been back there since the early nineties so I can't tell you what that place looks like.

    I will probably be going soon.

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    Just got back from demo and saw the decked out V10s...actually got passed by them as they were hauling up the fire road. Just doesn't seem like they deserve to be there since they're not earning their vertical. Demo is already crowded enough, but I know some people stay away because of the long climbs. If everyone had these motorized bikes, I'm sure it would get more crowded.

    But I think what bothers me most about those bikes is the threat they pose to our trail access. I think that is the biggest issue with NorCal riding, and these too damn fast uphill bikes bug me as a mountain biker. I can foresee potential head-on collisions with other bikers on two way trails, with reaction times shrinking from unexpected fast climbing speeds. It seems likely that this will only give more fuel to the non-mtb public to restrict trail access further. Would suck to lose demo...only legal single track in SC county that actually has cool jumpy features.

    I did happen to see a CaFire truck heading down the fire road on the way home. Stopped to ask them if ebikes were legal and they said no, but also said they don't have authority to issue tickets. So probably up to us to police this.

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    Thats what i was referring to. On out and back trails, the climber is slow and the descender is fast. There is usually enough reaction time. If both are going fast, head on collisions will occur and that annoying motor sound will prevent them from hearing bells.

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    As a hiker, mountain bikers' closing speed up and down is faster than us hikers. Someone is going to get hurt. I'm sure hikers have been struck and injured or died. And there are a lot of new and old mountain bikers who don't know trail etiquette, which makes everything unsafe. And some of the mountain bikers might get deep in the woods and if their bike breaks, they are stuck. Who is paying for that search and rescue? I'm concerned that people riding bikes will get all people banned from trails. Ban bikes from hiking places. Ban bike riding off pavement everywhere.

    p.s. Thank you bikers for helping me polish my arguments against off road bicycling

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    ^that

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    Quote Originally Posted by OS-KR View Post
    Can anyone educate me on how minimal mtb erosion is relevant in a forest logged with heavy machinery? I am not being cynical, I just don't get it. I can't stop thinking about sawpit (and other trails, if they even existed).
    Excellent point Oscar I think everybody just gets all worked up when ebikes are mentioned.

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    I think motoman711 might get some socks out of this thread???
    Last edited by griz; 07-15-2017 at 05:14 PM. Reason: Typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by griz View Post
    I think motoman71 might get some socks out of this thread???
    Nah, this is just a repost thread. I can guarantee there was already an e-bikes at demo thread a few months ago.

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    OS-KR: Demo gets logged because it's a working forest, basically a tree farm. But being a demonstration forest they also try to balance the logging with recreational opportunities. Environmental erosion issues are, I think, more of an issue at state parks, national forests, Midpen, etc.

    But basic erosion negatively affects all trails over time. Lots of bay area trails--or at least sections--are drastically different than they were years ago. I'm not sure what the answer is but we all need to either do trailwork or financially support the people that do.
    Last edited by dirtvert; 07-15-2017 at 09:05 PM.
    Friends don't let friends ride e-"bikes" on dirt.

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  93. #93
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    Lotsa chicken little in gnarcal

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtvert View Post
    OS-KR: Demo gets logged because it's a working forest, basically a tree farm. But being a demonstration forest they also try to balance the logging with recreational opportunities. Environmental erosion issues are, I think, more of an issue at state parks, national forests, Midpen, etc.

    But basic erosion negatively affects all trails over time. Lots of bay area trails--or at least sections--are drastically different than they were years ago. I'm not sure what the answer is but we all need to either do trailwork or financially support the people that do.
    In the specific case of demo, a place with regular trail maintenance, not too many trails density, little poaching, little shuttling, etc,
    I think mtb erosion is pretty well managed, and we should talk more about normal usage wear/maintenance.

    Then one day it rains, close to where the bulldozers have replaced the single tracks, and a whole section of the fireroad and hill gets washed out

    I also wonder why single track design is so critical for erosion, but fireroads design, pavement and grazing are not.

    Lets go back to the ebikes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    I'm the judge
    I didn't know you were the judge. Well then, carry on. I'm sure you know better than everybody else about how things ought to be.

    Hey, maybe they will give you a radio so you can be in direct contact with the authorities whenever you see an infraction. I bet you would enjoy that!
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  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiskare View Post
    I didn't know you were the judge. Well then, carry on. I'm sure you know better than everybody else about how things ought to be.

    Hey, maybe they will give you a radio so you can be in direct contact with the authorities whenever you see an infraction. I bet you would enjoy that!
    Only replying to this because I'd like to see Motoman get some socks.

    Nah, at Demo cell service is pretty good and I could phone it in. But yes at Henry Coe I do carry a radio, a requirement for volunteers on patrol. Occasionally I'll call in an infraction (like a campfire where there shouldn't be one), but mostly it's to report a park visitor needing aid due to injury or illness. I did report a couple of gas motos inside of Coe's gates this year. (After a brief chase by the responding ranger they got away)

    I certainly don't know it all but I do know how advocacy works; too many scofflaws and it gets shut down. If a user group can't/won't control their own from within then the control will come from outside.

    Anarchy is a fun concept from a philosophical point of view; in reality not so much.
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    If this discussion thread reflects the future of mountain biking and how we all will get along for the benefit of the sport then we might just be screwed.

  98. #98
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    Class one ebikes are less of a concern for me, but they are still breaking the law and I don't like them on our trails. I'm not going to call in someone on one.
    Class 4 moto ebikes are the same as ICE motos and I will harass and call them in. There are places where you can ride them and places you can't. Demo is such a gem. The advocacy and hard work that has gone into it needs to be protected. If we as a community don't help protect it, the powers that be will either take it away or be out enforcing. Neither of which I want. It's sucks and I'm not territorial about my trails, but I don't want the extra attention and for land managers to think of us as a hassle.

    We want the image of mountain bikers to be positive. When trail maintenance is needed we need to step up. If your park is busy on the weekends, avoid the crowds by going off peak. I strive for only positive interactions.

    With that being said class 1 ebike face a hard road as it's impossible to police and the added cost of doing so makes it easy for land managers to just issue a blanket ban.

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    It's amazing how these threads keep springing up. Kind of like a wildfire that sits there smoldering for days when you think it's out and then bursts back to life. And even more amazing how everyone needs to post the "What really concerns me about ebikes is ..." as if they've just come to this amazing insight that nobody else has had before, and we all need to know about it.

    It does make for good entertainment though, carry on!

  100. #100
    mtbr member
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    Quote Originally Posted by nilswalk View Post
    It's amazing how these threads keep springing up. Kind of like a wildfire that sits there smoldering for days when you think it's out and then bursts back to life. And even more amazing how everyone needs to post the "What really concerns me about ebikes is ..." as if they've just come to this amazing insight that nobody else has had before, and we all need to know about it.

    It does make for good entertainment though, carry on!
    yes, it is just an approved access issue. get your stakeholder group formed, get a seat at the table, and work for access. i am happy to share trails with user groups that the trails can accommodate. but all the disingenuous nonsense and free-riding on access of other distinct groups is nonsense and the main reason it stirs up such a debate here. lazy is as lazy does, or stupid is as stupid does...whichever is applicable to the "it's just a mountain bike nonsense" should expect a healthy opposing view on a mountain bike site.


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