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  1. #1
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    Cyclist strikes and kills pedestrian in SF


  2. #2
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    No, a cyclist that mad a bad decision kills. Even if he was going for the top of the leaderboard on Strava, he still CHOOSES to do that. That could be his motivation, but he still chooses.

    So, Strava is no more at fault than the bike company that made the bike.

    If there was ever a decent case for disk brakes on a road bike, this may have been it.
    Lead by my Lefty............... right down the trail, no brakes.

  3. #3
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    Hmm, I wonder if Strava stats are admissible in court.

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    Strava has a few kills on it's record that past 3 years, I think the others could be considered suicides and not homicides like this one. People will be dumb, you can't change that.

  5. #5
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    Sad indeed. That guy must've been flying down the hill if he couldn't stop in time...that intersection is enormous.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beancrew49 View Post
    Hmm, I wonder if Strava stats are admissible in court.
    I would think it's possible. However, the whole proof of device ownership, IP addresses, timestamps and such. It could get ugly, but could provide some circumstantial evidence.
    Lead by my Lefty............... right down the trail, no brakes.

  7. #7
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    He was only going 35mph. what's the speed limit on that road?
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

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    Not sure how many have been following this story. Wonder how many people assumed it was a fixie riding SF hipster with no brakes?

    Also, I don't think disc brakes on road bikes make one bit of difference for these types of incidents. An idiot behind the bars is still an idiot.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    He was only going 35mph. what's the speed limit on that road?
    25 mph. It's a bit of a downhill which leads to one of the largest and busiest intersections in the city. Major crossing area for cars, Muni buses and streetcars, and lots and lots of pedestrians.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by tburger View Post
    Not sure how many have been following this story. Wonder how many people assumed it was a fixie riding SF hipster with no brakes?

    Also, I don't think disc brakes on road bikes make one bit of difference for these types of incidents. An idiot behind the bars is still an idiot.
    He's an honorary hipster for riding like such a doooosh
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

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  11. #11
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    Read the story in the IJ and replace "bicycle" with "car". It really is no different. Sad and so avoidable.
    "It's just that nobody likes Cornfish." francois

  12. #12
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    Title should say "Stupid kills". Not Strava, they didn't for the d1ckbag to kill another human.
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  13. #13
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    How long does it take for a road bike to stop from 30mph?

  14. #14
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    Admitted to speeding and running a red in public? He's screwed. The last guy this happened to just got probation for his offense though.

  15. #15
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddy View Post
    Admitted to speeding and running a red in public? He's screwed. The last guy this happened to just got probation for his offense though.
    He did not admit running a red. He insists on entering on yellow. May be the case, but sure as hell he should have slowed down.

  16. #16
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    Im sorry for the pedestrian that was just walking across the street and gets wiped out too. I ride in sf all the time and stopped running red lights when I realized that the peds just step out when the light changes and on a bike, they can be 10 people deep by the time you get across.
    What an idiot, I cant believe he posted all that on a website, he basically has no defense now. I dont know why people do this on websites like facebook, or send texts, its all saved and you cant take it back.
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    I don't see how Strava...

    ... contributed to the accident, but it did collect evidence. Don't go changing around the headline to imply that he was trying to beat some sort of Strava record. That is just dishonest.

    That said, 35.8 mph is not that fast, IMO.... not so fast you can't stop in an intersection if your brakes are at all reasonably working well... and if he was riding a no-brake fixie, that is way too fast to still be in the pedals. If your brakes don't work that well, you have no business going 35+ mph.

    IMO, the cyclist made a REEAAALLLY bad decision and tried to blow through the red light at a busy intersection, and that bad decision killed somebody. I hope they try him.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    He did not admit running a red. He insists on entering on yellow.
    OK, it's been a while since I took drivers ed - but I remember the definition of running a red light as being in the intersection at all when it turns red (entering on yellow makes no difference).

    Of course these days running a red means entering the intersection at least 2 seconds after it's fully red!

  19. #19
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    His personal account of the whole situation is documented in the Mission Cycling google group. He dedicated the post to his dead helmet wtf!

    http://mobile.sfgate.com/sfchron/db_41685/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=YG08h3rY

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by locoyokel View Post
    OK, it's been a while since I took drivers ed - but I remember the definition of running a red light as being in the intersection at all when it turns red (entering on yellow makes no difference).
    Driver handbook says:

    Solid Yellow A yellow signal light means "CAUTION." The red signal is about to appear. When you see the yellow light, stop if you can do so safely. If you cannot stop safely, cross the intersection cautiously.
    Seems quite clear that you can in fact enter the intersection on yellow. Says nothing about where you must be once it turns red.

    21453. (a) A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication to proceed is shown, except as provided in subdivision (b).
    If you are past those limit lines, my interpretation is that you have to proceed.

    IANAL, obviously.

  21. #21
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    When I had my business in SF in 2000 it was a ticketable offence to go through an intersection on a yellow.
    I don't rattle.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beancrew49 View Post
    Hmm, I wonder if Strava stats are admissible in court.
    Yes it can

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Driver handbook says:



    Seems quite clear that you can in fact enter the intersection on yellow. Says nothing about where you must be once it turns red.



    If you are past those limit lines, my interpretation is that you have to proceed.

    IANAL, obviously.

    You can cross into the intersection on a yellow. If you are in the intersection when it turns red, you must continue through the intersection, but it is not illegal to do so. Some people say you need to be 50% through the intersection when it turns red, but this is really hard to document unless there are cameras.

    I learned this the hard way after getting a camera-enforced traffic light violation in SF (to the tune of $550.) Basically you can enter the intersection as long as it is yellow, but the minute it turns red you are guilty if you cross the line (which is what I did because SF lights are almost 1 second shorter than those on the peninsula.)

    The cyclist was in his legal right if he was in the intersection while it was yellow and if he could provide reasonable doubt that he could stop safely. I'm sure there are other ways he can be tried in court.


    That said, pedestrians should ALWAYS look both ways, even if their signal says "go." There are far too many people in SF that think they always have the right-of-way, even when cars are buzzing past. The moms with strollers are the ones that really bother me...are you really going to prove that you have the right of way even if your baby gets hit???

  24. #24
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    I disagree with Jmartino. It is different in SF.
    I don't rattle.

  25. #25
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    Such an inflammatory and irresponsible title...

    https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...w=1282&bih=773

    fc

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Such an inflammatory and irresponsible title...

    fc
    Edit it.

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    If you are in the intersection at all when the light turns yellow, your fine to continue through. Jamartino is correct. Even if you only acrross the limit line 1 inch, you cannot be cited, technically. This is the law throughout the state of Ca, not any different in SF. Sucks that the ped died and this guy has to live with this forever. A tragedy for all involved.
    They never made the "Slowster"

  28. #28
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    Something doesn't make sense here. 35 mph is about 50 feet per second. If you are in the middle of the intersection when the light turns red, the pedestrians only have about 1/4 a second to step out in front of you. How can there already be a line of pedestrians blocking your way?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmarshall View Post
    If you are in the intersection at all when the light turns yellow, your fine to continue through. Jamartino is correct. Even if you only acrross the limit line 1 inch, you cannot be cited, technically. .
    but you always have to be in control and operate in a safe manor

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    How can there already be a line of pedestrians blocking your way?

    It happened in SF.
    My guess is some number of the pedestrians were already partially in the street when the light started changing yellow.

  31. #31
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    I edited the title. Be careful about these specially when there's death involved.

    fc

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    I edited the title. Be careful about these specially when there's death involved.

    fc
    I meant no offense to the people involved in this tragic event. Just wanted to share with the forum because it was the first time I had seen Strava used in print in my local paper.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by FKFW View Post
    I meant no offense to the people involved in this tragic event. Just wanted to share with the forum because it was the first time I had seen Strava used in print in my local paper.
    Right on man. I've done the same. But Google changes the issue when someone searches for a term and these forum titles are the first that show up.

    fc

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by tburger View Post
    Not sure how many have been following this story. Wonder how many people assumed it was a fixie riding SF hipster with no brakes?
    That was my initial guess before having read the articleit was the logical thing to do (my initial assumption, that is).
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    On a side note, not to derail this thread. I feel horrible for the deceased. My parents are right in that age group, and it would take everything in me not to unload 10 rounds of .30 carbine into this a-hole.

    Anyway...

    My wife doesn't like me trying to mess with Strava. I have congenial hypertension, which is controlled with medication and diet - but she is concerned that trying to mess with PR's and stuff will leave me dead on the side of the trail. Or worse, having a stroke and making me a vegetable staring at mylar balloons.

    I have a sh0t-load of insurance to cover these situations (long term disability, long term care and enough life insurance to make her very rich), but I still don't mess with Strava. The point is, is sometimes riders may push themselves into stupid ego-based decision making. Blasting down a hill to beat a record could be considered as such. In the end, it's up to the individual to make those decisions whether sacrificing safety for a number on the screen is worth it. It's not to me.

    I wonder if this rider was in a group or two or more, if he would've stopped for the peds. I know when I'm in a group, the general consensus is safety, so in ped vs. bike situations, we usually back off and let the pads have the right away.

    Anyhow - rider is a d00ch. Involuntary manslaughter punishable by imprisonment, please. If that doesn't get him, his wages will be garnished for the rest of his life through a civil suit. What an idiot.

  36. #36
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    Strava is a powerful drug. You start with just a little, then it becomes more and more. Then all you want to do is ride more with it. Soon you become less social. Not wanting to ride with friends and hoping there is no one on the trail ahead to interfere with you time. Plus when riding with friends, you are only going to stop when you know it's safe to stop and it wont mess up the segment you were just on.

    And yes, I am a Stravidian. Help me!

  37. #37
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    Walk sign or not, I always look both ways before stepping off the curb. In Chicago I had a walk light and had I not looked I would have stepped out in front of the 18 wheeler barreling down Ashland at 50+ that did not see the light at all nor slow down one bit.

    I will have to avoid reading the comments in SFGATE about this due to their probably vile nature, however people should know that cars coming down that part of Market routinely are going 45-50mph, despite the 25mph posted limit.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    Something doesn't make sense here. 35 mph is about 50 feet per second. If you are in the middle of the intersection when the light turns red, the pedestrians only have about 1/4 a second to step out in front of you. How can there already be a line of pedestrians blocking your way?
    Agreed here. If I'm not mistaken, from lights I've watched on road while waiting to cross, there's a bit of delay from when it turns red and the "walk" sign appears.

    Quote Originally Posted by rho View Post
    It happened in SF.
    My guess is some number of the pedestrians were already partially in the street when the light started changing yellow.
    Even so, that would have been even more visible, especially for someone who rides in SF. I still don't think it adds up, I think he ran the red when he saw the trickle of the early walkers and then the crowd when the walk light turns.

    Personally, I hope he gets charged. He made a bad choice and was completely irresponsible and showed no remorse online, except for his gear. Never mind the trail of blood he mentioned. A-hole.

    Bucchere ends his account by dedicating the story "to my late helmet."

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    I disagree with Jmartino. It is different in SF.
    What do you mean? Entering the intersection on yellow is not illegal in the state of California. If you speed up to enter the intersection on a yellow, you can be cited for reckless driving. Additionally, you can be cited for "gridlocking" if you are stopped in the middle of the intersection if the light turns red.

    But if you enter an intersection on a yellow, and the light turns red, you will not be cited (nor will the traffic cameras take your picture.)

    According to California vehicle code 21452:

    "21452. (a) A driver facing a steady circular yellow or yellow arrow signal is, by that signal, warned that the related green movement is ending or that a red indication will be shown immediately thereafter. "

    That does not mean you cannot enter the intersection on yellow. Here's a law firm's website that gives a bit more explanation:

    California Motor Vehicle Code 21452 - The Sign to Slow Down - DMV - BISNAR | CHASE Law Firm

  40. #40
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    The guy shouldn't be going that fast if he can't slow down, 35 is not that fast. That said, peds need to take responsibility for themselves and look before they cross. The situation sucks, but was definitely avoidable.

    I jaywalk all the time and have almost gotten a couple people hit when they blindly crossed into the street 5-10ft behind me. It's amazing what people will do without looking.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    How long does it take for a road bike to stop from 30mph?
    Much longer than a car[1], it really depends on the skills of the rider. Unless it's something you've practiced, there's no way you can make effective front wheel panic stops w/o flipping the bike. At those speeds the rear brake is largely useless and just causes you to lose control[2]. You have to get your weight back and take the front wheel to just short of skidding. It's pretty tricky since if you skid the front wheel, you're either flipping or going down.

    [1]- Ratio of Speed to Stopping Distance

    A car stops 43 feet after you press the brake at 30 mph. That's roughly 10 bike lengths. For a car most of the stopping distance at 30 mph is reaction time (i.e. it takes 66 feet to react and 43 feet for the brakes to stop the car. )

    [2]- The harder you brake the more weight shifts to the front wheel and the less effective braking on the rear wheel becomes. Classic beginner mistake is to brake hard on the back wheel, wheel breaks loose and the bike instantly high sides.

  42. #42
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    assuming you keep the car/bike pointed in the direction of motion

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by FKFW View Post
    Strava is a powerful drug. You start with just a little, then it becomes more and more. Then all you want to do is ride more with it. Soon you become less social. Not wanting to ride with friends and hoping there is no one on the trail ahead to interfere with you time. Plus when riding with friends, you are only going to stop when you know it's safe to stop and it wont mess up the segment you were just on.

    And yes, I am a Stravidian. Help me!
    it's not a drug. sometimes people just have a problem with self control and make bad decisions. you can't blame a web service. if you don't talk to your friends because you are trying to do something online you probably have some issues with your priorities. i understand the i'm-going-to-give-it-some-extra-effort-because-someone-is-watching thing, but really.. you are the master of your universe. take responsibility for yourself.

    i don't know what happened here. the outcome is most unfortunate. i'm sure there are people that go down castro faster whether they are tracking their time online or not (for what it's worth, his fastest avg speed down the segment people are talking about was 17.4mph and that is around 21% slower than the fastest tracked speed of 22mph) furthermore, on average 16 pedestrians are killed by cars in sf every year (source) that's not to diminish this tragedy in anyway, just a bit of perspective. my condolences to the family of the deceased. and i hope this person learns something from this and if nothing else is held responsible for the outcome of his actions and the crass nature of his comments.

  44. #44
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    Agreed there are a lot of people who don't look and step out into traffic. BUT, in this situation, according to the evening news interview with the widow, her husband always waited a second or two before crossing. Her statement was that the light turned green for them, and everyone started walking, except her husband. He was lagging behind. She heard the screams and crash, turned around, and saw her husband on the ground bleeding profusely. He was 71. She is slightly younger. In my experience, elderly folks are not the ones to step out into the crosswalk early.

    Combine this with the statement the bicyclist made, that he was already too committed to stop, and aimed for the thinnest part of the crowd to plow through.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnmark View Post
    The guy shouldn't be going that fast if he can't slow down, 35 is not that fast. That said, peds need to take responsibility for themselves and look before they cross. The situation sucks, but was definitely avoidable.
    Agreed and an unfortunate situation for sure. I've noticed that in bigger cities, the pedestrians tend to look less and just go by the signal, almost like the christmas tree lights at a drag race track. After spending some time in South America some time back, I learned to for sure look before crossing, even with a green light at a crosswalk. Sure, you might have the legal right of way, but the laws of physics might have a different "legal opinion".

  46. #46
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    You guys need to understand the intersection we are talking about here. Cyclist was traveling southbound crossing Market Street. It's a downhill approach, so you can pick up speed pretty quickly. Okay, so he entered while the light was yellow, and then it turned red while he was in the middle of the intersection. He crossed 4 lanes of Market Street and tried to weave through the pedestrians who already started to walk. The collision occurred on the southern crosswalk.


    View Larger Map

    Cyclist Who Struck Pedestrian At Castro: "I Just Plowed Through The Crowded Crosswalk": SFist: San Francisco


    The cyclist who struck a 71-year-old pedestrian who later died from his injuries at Castro and Market Streets last week allegedly took to the Internet on the day of the incident to tell his side of the story. In a message posted on the Mission Cycling Club forum, member Chris Bucchere apparently identified himself as the cyclist responsible for the crash in an incredibly detailed post describing his early morning ride from San Francisco to the Marin headlands and back. From Bucchere's post on March 29th:

    [Emphasis, ours]
    Around 8 a.m. I was descending Divisadero Street southbound and about to cross Market Street. The light turned yellow as I was approaching the intersection, but I was already way too committed to stop. The light turned red as I was cruising through the middle of the intersection and then, almost instantly, the southern crosswalk on Market and Castro filled up with people coming from both directions. The intersection very long and the width of Castro Street at that point is very short, so, in a nutshell, blammo.
    The quote/unquote 'scene of the crime' was that intersection right by the landmark Castro Theatre - it leads from a really busy MUNI station to that little plaza where The Naked Guy always hangs out. It was commuter hour and it was crowded as all getup. I couldn't see a line through the crowd and I couldn't stop, so I laid it down and just plowed through the crowded crosswalk in the least-populated place I could find.

    I don't remember the next five minutes but when I came to, I was in a neck brace being loaded into an ambulance. I remember seeing a RIVER of blood on the asphalt, but it wasn't mine. Apparently I hit a 71-year-old male pedestrian and he ended up in the ICU with pretty serious head injuries. I really hope he ends up OK."

    The posts on Mission Cycling Club's message board have since been removed and SFPD still has yet to officially identify the cyclist involved in the incident, so there are still some doubts here, but the DA's office is already looking in to the connection.

    According to both the Marin Independent Journal and the Guardian, however, a map of Bucchere's ride recorded by GPS app Strava allegedly showed him doing 35 mph while crossing Market. That ride record has also been deleted, but was referenced by other members of the Mission Cycling forum SF2G forum.

    In the end, Bucchere says his bike was confiscated by the cops. Although he expressed some well wishes for the elderly victim who was expected to survive at the time but later died, Bucchere ended his note with an ode to his headgear, writing: "In closing, I want to dedicate this story to my late helmet. She died in heroic fashion today as my head slammed into the tarmac... The moral of this little story is: WYFH." Or, in other words: Wear your ****ing helmet a sentiment other commenters doubted, responding: "I'm not sure that's the moral of the story."

  47. #47
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    My guess is that he was running red lights at the fat intersection.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by tburger View Post
    Or, in other words: Wear your ****ing helmet a sentiment other commenters doubted, responding: "I'm not sure that's the moral of the story."
    This is it. Pedestrians in San Francisco should wear helmets. I think city council should issue an ordinance.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    This is it. Pedestrians in San Francisco should wear helmets. I think city council should issue an ordinance.
    "A walking helmet is a good helmet." From the Danish Road Safety Council.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    This is it. Pedestrians in San Francisco should wear helmets. I think city council should issue an ordinance.
    Don't put ideas in their head. They probably will, maybe body armor too.

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    If what he says is true and he could not safely stop before the limit line and he entered under a yellow light, that is NOT against the law in the State of California, doesn't matter if you are Eureka or San Francisco...They might bust him for speeding if they can prove he was doing 35 in a 25..Could that morph into vehicular homicide then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sjvalleydave View Post
    If what he says is true and he could not safely stop before the limit line and he entered under a yellow light, that is NOT against the law in the State of California, doesn't matter if you are Eureka or San Francisco...They might bust him for speeding if they can prove he was doing 35 in a 25..Could that morph into vehicular homicide then?
    In the other recent cyclist involved pedestrian fatality the cyclist ran a red light and got off with a misdemeanor and community service

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    Quote Originally Posted by IAmHolland View Post
    Don't put ideas in their head. They probably will, maybe body armor too.
    I'm more worried about incidents like this causing laws to be passed requiring cyclists to carry liability insurance. I have read several stories worldwide of cyclists hitting and killing pedestrians. AFAIK, all of the victims were elderly. I think one happened in New York, one in Britain, and I don't know where the others happened.

    This incident and the rider's comment about the "late helmet" only give cyclist-hating motorists more ammunition to attempt to get anti-cycling laws passed. I would hate to see cyclists forced to carry insurance. The bicycle is often the only way the homeless and other low-income people can move about independently other than walking.

    Most of the people I see riding around town who are low-income can barely make ends meet. There's no way they would be able to afford liability insurance. Look at the number of uninsured drivers out there. I'll bet many of them are barely surviving too.

    SF is one of those places where I don't let my speed get too high. There's just too many people, and most intersections have red lights and stop signs anyway.

    I won't even speed on my bike in downtown Sacramento. Any densely-populated area is dangerous to speed through on any vehicle, bicycles included.

    My condolences to the victim and his family.

  54. #54
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    Back on topic: cyclists account

    Online post recounts how bicyclist hit pedestrian


    "...I was already way too committed to stop," the post states. "The light turned red as I was cruising through the middle of the intersection and then, almost instantly, the southern crosswalk on Market and Castro filled up with people coming from both directions. ...I couldn't see a line through the crowd and I couldn't stop, so I laid it down and just plowed through the crowded crosswalk in the least-populated place I could find."

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    I feel so badly for the widow and her family. My prayers go with them.

    I guess it's not stated but I'm wondering if he was on a fixie. If so, those bikes should be required to have brakes. I think that is just one of the stupidest things to not have brakes, especially in an urban area. In this incident, however, it may be that even if he had brakes he may not have been able to stop in time anyhow.

    My neighbor was hit by a cyclist while hiking at Santa Teresa park. The rider just sped blindly down one of the hills coming around a turn and knocked her down. She was walking down the hill and had no idea he was coming since he was obviously going way to fast to control his speed and she got hit from behind.

    I was almost hit from a rider going downhill at speed also at Santa Teresa. I stopped after noticing him and thought I was in his sight, but I guess he was not looking ahead. It wasn't until I yelled to warn him of my presence did he slow down and veer right but came very close to hitting me.

    Another friend of mine was nearly hit by a group of speeding riders at Saratoga Gap.

    Now I'm all for speed limits and ranger patrol on shared-use trails. And yes, I love to bomb down hill as fast as possible, but not at the cost of safety of others.
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  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnmark View Post
    The guy shouldn't be going that fast if he can't slow down, 35 is not that fast. That said, peds need to take responsibility for themselves and look before they cross. The situation sucks, but was definitely avoidable.

    I jaywalk all the time and have almost gotten a couple people hit when they blindly crossed into the street 5-10ft behind me. It's amazing what people will do without looking.
    It wasn't like one guy was in the intersection and he hit him he said it was so full he had no clear line, that means people from both sides had already met in the middle, he was way late, ran the light, hit an old guy and killed him and was a total dick about it, they should take his bike away for good and send him to jail for a few weeks, he's a piece of ****
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    I heard all about this issue a lot on KCBS radio yesterday. The big stink is the cyclist casually 'blogged' about it and 'seemed more concerned about his broken helmet.' Strava was up too. I think the blogging occured before the injured passed away on Monday. Then all hell broke loose.

    Lawyers, city, SF Bike coalition are involved now. There is a whole lot of hurt coming for the cyclist here and cyclists in general. I heard SF Bike Coalition was out there on the street corners showing a presence and openly condemning the actions of this person.

    Blogging/forum posting/mailing list seem to be all considered as one these days so I'm not exactly sure which one was used.

    fc

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    Would Any

    Would any of this even be a topic of discussion here or in the greater media if the fatality hadn't involved a bicycle? If it had been a car/driver that had killed the pedestrian, I doubt this story would have received the attention and generated the outrage, and elicited the opinions it has. This is a tragic case of a "man bites dog story", and the media is feeding the anti-cycling segment of it's readership with it.

    Everyone makes mistakes, sometimes it's the consequences that make them remarkable and tragic. This incident is awful for all concerned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    Title should say "Stupid kills". Not Strava, they didn't for the d1ckbag to kill another human.
    Where are you guys seeing 'Strava' in a headline? - Am I missing something?
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post
    Where are you guys seeing 'Strava' in a headline? - Am I missing something?
    This thread was originally titled 'Strava Kills!?!'

    fc

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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    This thread was originally titled 'Strava Kills!?!'

    fc
    ahh ok - I missed where you edited the title - I was pretty confused reading the 1st page

    thanks fc
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post
    ahh ok - I missed where you edited the title - I was pretty confused reading the 1st page

    thanks fc
    After reading the various news accounts, watching the vidoes and seeing chris bucheres youtube page bombarded with negative, hateful comments - this whole thing reminds me of the trayvon martin incident.

    The public and the media is way to quick to pass judgement without having both sides of the story.

    It's just sad.
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  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    It wasn't like one guy was in the intersection and he hit him he said it was so full he had no clear line, that means people from both sides had already met in the middle, he was way late, ran the light, hit an old guy and killed him and was a total dick about it, they should take his bike away for good and send him to jail for a few weeks, he's a piece of ****
    People jump on intersections before lights turn green for them all the time. It is certainly feasible that he in fact entered on yellow.

    He should have able to stop anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pmarshall View Post
    If you are in the intersection at all when the light turns yellow, your fine to continue through. Jamartino is correct. Even if you only acrross the limit line 1 inch, you cannot be cited, technically. This is the law throughout the state of Ca, not any different in SF. Sucks that the ped died and this guy has to live with this forever. A tragedy for all involved.
    Exactly the same situation as this incident, but with cars, happened to my wife when driving in SF. She was stopped the light, but full view of the intersection was blocked by a construction truck on the island next to her.

    After the light turned green, my wife started out. But an older lady in a Mercedes "ran the light" and rammed smack into the driver's side of our wagon. Our wagon was totaled and my wife almost lost my third girl she was pregnant with.

    Amazingly, the Mercedes that "ran" the red light and hit my wife was in the clear, as a witness said she entered on the yellow. (Like here, we question how the light had time to change to red, then to green for my wife, and then for my wife to start out, all while the Mercedes is still barreling across the road?)

    Not only was the Mercedes driver cleared by the police, she then SUED US, and my insurance paid off. They said my wife should have looked to make sure the intersection was clear before she took off, even though she had the green. (And in spite of her view being obstructed.)

    By this same proven argument, the biker should be totally clear. Furthermore, he should able to successfully sue the deceased 71 yo pedestrian's estate for not looking both ways and damaging his bike and breaking his beloved helmet!!

    [EDIT: Just to be clear, the last paragraph is angry sarcasm due to how we were treated in this same situation. I think the biker is at fault if he had to hit pedestrians, regardless of law.]
    Last edited by BigLarry; 04-07-2012 at 05:24 PM.
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  65. #65
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    Speed limits are not the answer. The answer should be to have ranger sting operations that catch inconsiderate users that endanger others on the trail.

    As for the accident, if the blog posting is accurate, it seems that the light timing is pretty screwed up for someone to go through an intersection at 35 mph and still meet pedestrians crossing on the other side. Pretty sad.
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    Nobody needs to argue foremost - this is tragic.

    I've spent this past week in SF (1st time) and noticed a few things - it is very common for pedestrians to A. Jump the signal and start walking, or B. Leave late and still be in the street long after they should be on the other curb.
    As someone new to the city - I noticed the behavior after walking the city for an hour... someone who rides here every day should have anticipate that long before I would and therefore know to either be prepared to stop or head way into the middle of the street to avoid stragglers or people jumping the light.

    I wasn't there so I can't say who was at fault, but I do know what I've observed in walking every where this week from the embarcadero to the presidio - and that's that everyone is trying to get somewhere a little bit faster - whether they're using a GPS to prove it or not, there's some strava going on in all their heads...

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    Hey... I know this is 'armchair-quarterbacking' but, do you think if he had yelled "LOOK OUT!!! AAAHH!!"
    that peds would've dodged him?
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLarry View Post
    Exactly the same situation as this incident, but with cars, happened to my wife when driving in SF. She was stopped the light, but full view of the intersection was blocked by a construction truck on the island next to her.

    After the light turned green, my wife started out. But an older lady in a Mercedes "ran the light" and rammed smack into the driver's side of our wagon. Our wagon was totaled and my wife almost lost my third girl she was pregnant with.

    Amazingly, the Mercedes that "ran" the red light and hit my wife was in the clear, as a witness said she entered on the yellow. (Like here, we question how the light had time to change to red, then to green for my wife, and then for my wife to start out, all while the Mercedes is still barreling across the road?)

    Not only was the Mercedes driver cleared by the police, she then SUED US, and my insurance paid off. They said my wife should have looked to make sure the intersection was clear before she took off, even though she had the green. (And in spite of her view being obstructed.)

    By this same proven argument, the biker should be totally clear. Furthermore, he should able to successfully sue the deceased 71 yo pedestrian's estate for not looking both ways and damaging his bike and breaking his beloved helmet!!

    [EDIT: Just to be clear, the last paragraph is angry sarcasm due to how we were treated in this same situation. I think the biker is at fault if he had to hit pedestrians, regardless of law.]
    That's very frustrating. So the SF traffic engineers basically said that they time the lights so people can't clear the intersection in time? That's nuts. It reeks of stupidity.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Blogging/forum posting/mailing list seem to be all considered as one these days so I'm not exactly sure which one was used.

    fc
    IIRC, it was a Google+ list for Mission Cycling (or Cycles or something like that).

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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Speed limits are not the answer. The answer should be to have ranger sting operations that catch inconsiderate users that endanger others on the trail.

    As for the accident, if the blog posting is accurate, it seems that the light timing is pretty screwed up for someone to go through an intersection at 35 mph and still meet pedestrians crossing on the other side. Pretty sad.
    There are a few other forums out there discussing this particular intersection and other very close calls. It seems this intersection has a short yellow light.
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  71. #71
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    Strava plus testosterone = clouded judgement?

    I think Strava and other such GPS apps are pretty neat but they're also just another enticement to push boundaries a little too far. The degree to which Strava played a part in this tragedy may never be known.

    One thing I'm seeing here is that the cyclist "rung his bell" pretty good in the crash ("I don't remember the next five minutes but when I came to, I was in a neck brace being loaded into an ambulance"); what he remembers of the crash and his judgement of what he posted about it later should all be taken with a grain of salt. He's his own worst witness.

    For an excellent armchair experience go to Street View in Google Maps and view the intersection from up Castro a ways. It's got bad written all over it. You can't even see the nearest signal, it's blocked by "no left turn" signage. The people in the far sidewalk are mere specks; as would an approaching cyclist be to them.

    I know if I was blowing into that intersection on a yellow I'd mostly be checking left and right for approaching (encroaching?) auto traffic; I'd then be focusing attention on "my" lane. It only takes a second of looking away for something bad to happen.
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  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by FKFW View Post
    Strava is a powerful drug. You start with just a little, then it becomes more and more. Then all you want to do is ride more with it. Soon you become less social. Not wanting to ride with friends and hoping there is no one on the trail ahead to interfere with you time. Plus when riding with friends, you are only going to stop when you know it's safe to stop and it wont mess up the segment you were just on.

    And yes, I am a Stravidian. Help me!
    I don't think you're alone.

    Even me at my slow speed, as I lost weight a couple years ago, I got shorter personal times on standard routes, I got addicted to improving my time, along with all the poor attitudes you mentioned above. I no longer paid attention to the beautiful scenery around me. Worse of all, biking I'd always loved was becoming less fun.

    Then I gained weight again. Got slower. Stopped worrying about times. Started enjoying the trails and ride again. Go Figure.

    Not sure I'd recommend my cure. But relaxing and focus on enjoying the ride, the trails, and what's around you would probably help the affliction.

    On topic, it's not clear this accident is a result of Strava from anything I seen. It's just that the bicyclist self-incriminated by putting his tracks onto Strava so everyone could see he was speeding at 35 MPH in a 25 MPH zone. Then he can't slow for the light? GUILTY!
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  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by IAmHolland View Post
    That's very frustrating. So the SF traffic engineers basically said that they time the lights so people can't clear the intersection in time? That's nuts. It reeks of stupidity.
    We're thinking the witness was confused. We went back and timed it ourselves and found ~10 seconds from yellow one way, then red, then to green the other. So it wasn't overly short, even to clear the six lane road. Our insurance wouldn't let us argue it in court as it was cheaper for them to pay off.

    Still, I can understand it is the responsibility of the driver entering the intersection to make sure it's clear first. We see this every day. Someone turning left without a left turn lane has to wait for oncoming traffic to stop at the yellow/red before they can clear the intersection. You can just ram them and say you have the right of way with a green light.

    And in our case, it may have been the fault of the construction truck blocking the view of the intersection. He moved it before the police/ambulance showed up.

    Maybe it's the same for pedestrians? Jumping into the intersection, even with a green or Walk light, before it's clear may be against the law? Certainly not safe.
    It's not slow, it's doing more MTB time.

  74. #74
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    Try this. There are number of google results like this. In SF they are pretty hard on this law; I don't care wht the CA Vehicle code says:

    A yellow light legally means 'Clear the intersection'.

    Legally it is enforced as "1.) If you're in the intersection when a yellow light comes on, get out of (clear) the intersection." AND AND AND... "2.) If you're not in the intersection, treat the yellow light as a red light on DO NOT ENTER"

    The reason a yellow light violation is enforcable is mainly the second part is what people violate.

    If you are way back and the light turns yellow, and you punch the gas 'hoping' to beat the light, you can still be ticketed, EVEN if you do beat the light. You violated part 2.

    Now, if you run a yellow, then it turns red, and say you were then stuck in the middle of the intersection because your lane stopped moving and you CANT clear the intersection, you can also be cited for blocking an interseciton.

    It is this part (blocking an intersection) that yellow light violation laws are on the books.

    The method to the maddness is traffic laws exists to keep you from blocking the intersection, and yellow lights exist to warn you to NOT ENTER the intersection, so it can remain clear.
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  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    Try this. There are number of google results like this. In SF they are pretty hard on this law; I don't care wht the CA Vehicle code says:

    A yellow light legally means 'Clear the intersection'.

    ....

    The method to the maddness is traffic laws exists to keep you from blocking the intersection, and yellow lights exist to warn you to NOT ENTER the intersection, so it can remain clear.
    You're trying to argue that you can't enter an intersection on a yellow in SF?


    You're mistaken. The law was clearly explained to me in court when I went to contest my traffic camera ticket. And CA vehicle code governs all streets in the state so you should probably care what it says .

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    A yellow light legally means 'Clear the intersection'.
    Where the heck does it say so?

    Legally, what I am supposed to know is California Driver handbook. That is what a reasonable person uses to make decisions on a road.

    It says.

    Solid Yellow A yellow signal light means "CAUTION." The red signal is about to appear. When you see the yellow light, stop if you can do so safely. If you cannot stop safely, cross the intersection cautiously.
    How the heck can you interpret that any differently than what it says?

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    here we go gross negligence , good chance upping it to felony

    "Police sources tell us the file forwarded to the district attorney includes the name and number of a motorist who reported seeing Bucchere and another cyclist fly through several red lights and stop signs before the deadly Castro district crash
    sfgate

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    I used to do the trek from Twin Peaks -> Market -> work on lower Market (4th and Market) quite a bit, many moons ago. The two entities that caused me the most risk were Muni and other cyclists. Fixies/messengers/riders like this guy being amongst the worst.

    If you are biking on a busy city street, especially coming down a hill where peds, other cars, etc. are likely to be, you better be riding at a speed where you can stop as needed when the unexpected happens. The above note about the motorist seeing negligent behavior, I hope the guy gets the book thrown at him.

    People like this are the ones that make it more dangerous for other cyclists on the road.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Where the heck does it say so?

    Legally, what I am supposed to know is California Driver handbook. That is what a reasonable person uses to make decisions on a road.

    It says.


    How the heck can you interpret that any differently than what it says?
    Yep, thank you. +1. SF is not special regarding its yellow light laws...they are the same everywhere (although the timing may be slightly different from area to area.)

    Quote Originally Posted by natrat View Post
    here we go gross negligence , good chance upping it to felony

    "Police sources tell us the file forwarded to the district attorney includes the name and number of a motorist who reported seeing Bucchere and another cyclist fly through several red lights and stop signs before the deadly Castro district crash
    sfgate


    Quote Originally Posted by grumblingcrustacean View Post

    People like this are the ones that make it more dangerous for other cyclists on the road.
    Absolutely.


    But what gets me is the fact that the intersection is absolutely huge. I've driven and ridden through it many times. You have plenty of time to stop before you get to the other side, even at 35 mph.

    Sounds like he was trying to race through the red, and didn't make it.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtmartino View Post
    Sounds like he was trying to race through the red, and didn't make it.
    Agreed. This whole discussion on "yellow light" laws may be moot as I suspect "yellow light" is just the favorite excuse for "red light".

    And Bucchere was running red lights just before. And running his mouth off on the web. Only smart thing he's done so far is hire himself a top law firm. Maybe they'll explain to him how to behave. Or a few years in prison to reflect may help.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtmartino View Post
    But what gets me is the fact that the intersection is absolutely huge. I've driven and ridden through it many times. You have plenty of time to stop before you get to the other side, even at 35 mph.

    Sounds like he was trying to race through the red, and didn't make it.
    Unfortunately, there is no simple way for the biking community to pass on the message of "we are really sorry for your loss, please don't judge all bikers. this particular individual is an a-hole, please stick it to him in every way possible".

    Sad thing is, even as this story makes it's way around the cycling community, there are people that pull the same **** -- running reds/stop signs/etc. from SF down to SCruz -- that won't connect this situation with possibilities around their own actions.

    -j

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    Quote Originally Posted by ziscwg View Post
    I would think it's possible. However, the whole proof of device ownership, IP addresses, timestamps and such. It could get ugly, but could provide some circumstantial evidence.
    I would think GPX data would be too inaccurate. I've had Strava log me up to 70km/h on some downhills when I know I didn't go anywhere near that fast. A good defense lawyer would tear Strava evidence to bits.

  83. #83
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    I guess I won't be running any lights on my commute this week.

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    Quick note: KQED Forum on this subject starting at 9:05am. 88.5 FM here. Can listen online at KQED.org.
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    The next time I go to SF and plan to walk I think I'll bring my helmet.
    :wq

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    Quote Originally Posted by IP_Ale View Post
    As it should be. Bikes are Vehicles under the code and as such should be treated the same way as a car and its driver. Nothing pisses me off more that riders that want to be treated well by cars/drivers "Share the Road" then blatantly blowing off every stop sign and red light. Let the trial make the final determination.
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  90. #90
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    Re: Cyclist strikes and kills pedestrian in SF

    Bicycles much safer than cars. Look at the difference in mass. Thats a ridiculous statement

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    Sort of Buzz, but not quite. Bikes can ride on sidewalks unless prohibited, they have to stay on the far right of the road and are allowed on the road at speeds that would get autos pulled over by the CHP, etc.

    Everything points to a moron biker blasting through stop signs, stop lights, etc just to get a Strava record...but even so, a bike killing a pedestrian is so rare that even with all those blatant violations the biker didn't expect to be capable of killing someone - so unlikely to get much of a sentence even if convicted. Just look at how few drivers get much of any sentence for killing a bicyclist or pedestrian in SF.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by locoyokel View Post
    Sort of Buzz, but not quite. Bikes can ride on sidewalks unless prohibited, they have to stay on the far right of the road and are allowed on the road at speeds that would get autos pulled over by the CHP, etc.

    Everything points to a moron biker blasting through stop signs, stop lights, etc just to get a Strava record...but even so, a bike killing a pedestrian is so rare that even with all those blatant violations the biker didn't expect to be capable of killing someone - so unlikely to get much of a sentence even if convicted. Just look at how few drivers get much of any sentence for killing a bicyclist or pedestrian in SF.
    read the whole section CA Codes (veh:21200-21212)

    Local governments can make modification in a local area allowing bicycles to use a sidewalk otherwise they cannot.

    VEHICLE CODE
    SECTION 21200-21212



    21200. (a) A person riding a bicycle or operating a pedicab upon a
    highway has all the rights and is subject to all the provisions
    applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this division, including,
    but not limited to, provisions concerning driving under the influence
    of alcoholic beverages or drugs, and by Division 10 (commencing with
    Section 20000), Section 27400, Division 16.7 (commencing with
    Section 39000), Division 17 (commencing with Section 40000.1), and
    Division 18 (commencing with Section 42000), except those provisions
    which by their very nature can have no application.
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    DMV handbook and website says otherwise - sidewalks open to bikes unless posted close. Unless it's changed lately, I don't have time to look it up now but I did a few months back.

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    The guy obviously was playing bike racer doing a TT on a busy public street in apparent disregard of whatever he figured didn't matter to his own little world. Suddenly gets shifted into consensual reality as he collides with someone in an intersection. All the debate about yellow lights and traffic law matters little in light of this bozos unconscious riding. I still bet he gets a bigger shaft than the sleeping sherrif who mowed down the group ride in Cupertino.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by pedalitup View Post
    The guy obviously was playing bike racer doing a TT on a busy public street in apparent disregard of whatever he figured didn't matter to his ow I still bet he gets a bigger shaft than the sleeping sherrif who mowed down the group ride in Cupertino.
    I'd take that bet, but there is NO money in it.
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by locoyokel View Post
    DMV handbook and website says otherwise - sidewalks open to bikes unless posted close. Unless it's changed lately, I don't have time to look it up now but I did a few months back.
    Vehicle code would trump it, although it is a pretty poor case for anyone to try and enforce. Most places prohibit riding a bicycle on the sidewalk. A few have given out tickets for it.
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  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Where the heck does it say so?

    Legally, what I am supposed to know is California Driver handbook. That is what a reasonable person uses to make decisions on a road.
    Sometimes people get confused because other states have radically different laws. In AZ you can pull into an intersection all day if the light is yellow, and if it goes red while you are in there, it's everyone else's responsibility to not enter until you clear it. You "own" the intersection until you clear it, which is helpful for many of their unprotected left hand turns. Then there's the rule that if a pedestrian is not in the half of the crossing closest to you, you can blaze through there, no need to stop. So the point is people get these misperceptions because laws really are significantly different in other places often.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Dirtball did something stupid, he's paying the price.

    I agree with Buzz - a lot of cyclists flaunt the whole "share the rode, I am a vehicle" thing and then blow through stop signs and the like. The two items aren't related, beyond the overall attitude of entitlement.

    Personally, I hate riding road. Sometimes circumstances (weather/wife/etc) dictate a road ride. When we do, avoiding busy roads, but respecting the rules is the rule.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by grumblingcrustacean View Post
    Dirtball did something stupid, he's paying the price.

    I agree with Buzz - a lot of cyclists flaunt the whole "share the rode, I am a vehicle" thing and then blow through stop signs and the like. The two items aren't related, beyond the overall attitude of entitlement.

    Personally, I hate riding road. Sometimes circumstances (weather/wife/etc) dictate a road ride. When we do, avoiding busy roads, but respecting the rules is the rule.
    To me stop LIGHTS and stop signs (use your discretion) in low-traffic areas are two different animals.

    I will run stop-signs in my neighborhood all day long (provided the cross-traffic is clear). If there is a car, I will stop - and from my observation, in my area, most do (95%?)

    A lot of the cager misconception has to come from while possibly being behind a cyclist who is not slowing for a right, or proceeding through an intersection; when it was totally safe to do so
    - cagers don't have the advantage of awareness like cyclist's do, so they think that we are scoffing laws, but it really makes sense ... even, scientifically

    Why Cyclists Blow Through Stop Signs: It's Physics : TreeHugger
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  100. #100
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    And you think that no one sees you, but they do, and you contribute to the problem. Lots of people rationalize it. Few have any good reasons for it. The more we do it, the more no one follows any rules.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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