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Cyclist strikes and kills pedestrian in SF
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No, a cyclist that mad a bad decision kills. Even if he was going for the top of the leaderboard on Strava, he still CHOOSES to do that. That could be his motivation, but he still chooses.
So, Strava is no more at fault than the bike company that made the bike.
If there was ever a decent case for disk brakes on a road bike, this may have been it.
Lead by my Lefty............... right down the trail, no brakes.
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Hmm, I wonder if Strava stats are admissible in court.
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Strava has a few kills on it's record that past 3 years, I think the others could be considered suicides and not homicides like this one. People will be dumb, you can't change that.
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Sad indeed. That guy must've been flying down the hill if he couldn't stop in time...that intersection is enormous.
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 Originally Posted by Beancrew49
Hmm, I wonder if Strava stats are admissible in court.
I would think it's possible. However, the whole proof of device ownership, IP addresses, timestamps and such. It could get ugly, but could provide some circumstantial evidence.
Lead by my Lefty............... right down the trail, no brakes.
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Originally Posted by FKFW
He was only going 35mph. what's the speed limit on that road?
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Not sure how many have been following this story. Wonder how many people assumed it was a fixie riding SF hipster with no brakes?
Also, I don't think disc brakes on road bikes make one bit of difference for these types of incidents. An idiot behind the bars is still an idiot.
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Originally Posted by iheartbicycles
He was only going 35mph. what's the speed limit on that road?
25 mph. It's a bit of a downhill which leads to one of the largest and busiest intersections in the city. Major crossing area for cars, Muni buses and streetcars, and lots and lots of pedestrians.
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Originally Posted by tburger
Not sure how many have been following this story. Wonder how many people assumed it was a fixie riding SF hipster with no brakes?
Also, I don't think disc brakes on road bikes make one bit of difference for these types of incidents. An idiot behind the bars is still an idiot.
He's an honorary hipster for riding like such a doooosh
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Read the story in the IJ and replace "bicycle" with "car". It really is no different. Sad and so avoidable.
"It's just that nobody likes Cornfish." francois
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Title should say "Stupid kills". Not Strava, they didn't for the d1ckbag to kill another human.
15 Yeti ASR-c
14 Yeti ARC
16 Bianchi Specialissima
15 Echo Big Deal
15 Roubaix S-Works
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How long does it take for a road bike to stop from 30mph?
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Admitted to speeding and running a red in public? He's screwed. The last guy this happened to just got probation for his offense though.
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddy
Admitted to speeding and running a red in public? He's screwed. The last guy this happened to just got probation for his offense though.
He did not admit running a red. He insists on entering on yellow. May be the case, but sure as hell he should have slowed down.
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Im sorry for the pedestrian that was just walking across the street and gets wiped out too. I ride in sf all the time and stopped running red lights when I realized that the peds just step out when the light changes and on a bike, they can be 10 people deep by the time you get across.
What an idiot, I cant believe he posted all that on a website, he basically has no defense now. I dont know why people do this on websites like facebook, or send texts, its all saved and you cant take it back.
I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone
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I don't see how Strava...
Originally Posted by FKFW
... contributed to the accident, but it did collect evidence. Don't go changing around the headline to imply that he was trying to beat some sort of Strava record. That is just dishonest.
That said, 35.8 mph is not that fast, IMO.... not so fast you can't stop in an intersection if your brakes are at all reasonably working well... and if he was riding a no-brake fixie, that is way too fast to still be in the pedals. If your brakes don't work that well, you have no business going 35+ mph.
IMO, the cyclist made a REEAAALLLY bad decision and tried to blow through the red light at a busy intersection, and that bad decision killed somebody. I hope they try him.
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Originally Posted by Axe
He did not admit running a red. He insists on entering on yellow.
OK, it's been a while since I took drivers ed - but I remember the definition of running a red light as being in the intersection at all when it turns red (entering on yellow makes no difference).
Of course these days running a red means entering the intersection at least 2 seconds after it's fully red!
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His personal account of the whole situation is documented in the Mission Cycling google group. He dedicated the post to his dead helmet wtf!
http://mobile.sfgate.com/sfchron/db_41685/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=YG08h3rY
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Originally Posted by locoyokel
OK, it's been a while since I took drivers ed - but I remember the definition of running a red light as being in the intersection at all when it turns red (entering on yellow makes no difference).
Driver handbook says:
Solid Yellow– A yellow signal light means "CAUTION." The red signal is about to appear. When you see the yellow light, stop if you can do so safely. If you cannot stop safely, cross the intersection cautiously.
Seems quite clear that you can in fact enter the intersection on yellow. Says nothing about where you must be once it turns red.
21453. (a) A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication to proceed is shown, except as provided in subdivision (b).
If you are past those limit lines, my interpretation is that you have to proceed.
IANAL, obviously.
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When I had my business in SF in 2000 it was a ticketable offence to go through an intersection on a yellow.
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Originally Posted by Beancrew49
Hmm, I wonder if Strava stats are admissible in court.
Yes it can
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Originally Posted by Axe
Driver handbook says:
Seems quite clear that you can in fact enter the intersection on yellow. Says nothing about where you must be once it turns red.
If you are past those limit lines, my interpretation is that you have to proceed.
IANAL, obviously.
You can cross into the intersection on a yellow. If you are in the intersection when it turns red, you must continue through the intersection, but it is not illegal to do so. Some people say you need to be 50% through the intersection when it turns red, but this is really hard to document unless there are cameras.
I learned this the hard way after getting a camera-enforced traffic light violation in SF (to the tune of $550.) Basically you can enter the intersection as long as it is yellow, but the minute it turns red you are guilty if you cross the line (which is what I did because SF lights are almost 1 second shorter than those on the peninsula.)
The cyclist was in his legal right if he was in the intersection while it was yellow and if he could provide reasonable doubt that he could stop safely. I'm sure there are other ways he can be tried in court.
That said, pedestrians should ALWAYS look both ways, even if their signal says "go." There are far too many people in SF that think they always have the right-of-way, even when cars are buzzing past. The moms with strollers are the ones that really bother me...are you really going to prove that you have the right of way even if your baby gets hit???
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I disagree with Jmartino. It is different in SF.
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Originally Posted by francois
Such an inflammatory and irresponsible title...
fc
Edit it.
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If you are in the intersection at all when the light turns yellow, your fine to continue through. Jamartino is correct. Even if you only acrross the limit line 1 inch, you cannot be cited, technically. This is the law throughout the state of Ca, not any different in SF. Sucks that the ped died and this guy has to live with this forever. A tragedy for all involved.
They never made the "Slowster"
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Something doesn't make sense here. 35 mph is about 50 feet per second. If you are in the middle of the intersection when the light turns red, the pedestrians only have about 1/4 a second to step out in front of you. How can there already be a line of pedestrians blocking your way?
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Originally Posted by pmarshall
If you are in the intersection at all when the light turns yellow, your fine to continue through. Jamartino is correct. Even if you only acrross the limit line 1 inch, you cannot be cited, technically. .
but you always have to be in control and operate in a safe manor
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Originally Posted by beanbag
How can there already be a line of pedestrians blocking your way?
It happened in SF.
My guess is some number of the pedestrians were already partially in the street when the light started changing yellow.
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I edited the title. Be careful about these specially when there's death involved.
fc
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Originally Posted by francois
I edited the title. Be careful about these specially when there's death involved.
fc
I meant no offense to the people involved in this tragic event. Just wanted to share with the forum because it was the first time I had seen Strava used in print in my local paper.
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Originally Posted by FKFW
I meant no offense to the people involved in this tragic event. Just wanted to share with the forum because it was the first time I had seen Strava used in print in my local paper.
Right on man. I've done the same. But Google changes the issue when someone searches for a term and these forum titles are the first that show up.
fc
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Originally Posted by tburger
Not sure how many have been following this story. Wonder how many people assumed it was a fixie riding SF hipster with no brakes?
That was my initial guess before having read the article—it was the logical thing to do (my initial assumption, that is).
QUOTE from MTBR.COM: You have given Brewtality too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.
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On a side note, not to derail this thread. I feel horrible for the deceased. My parents are right in that age group, and it would take everything in me not to unload 10 rounds of .30 carbine into this a-hole.
Anyway...
My wife doesn't like me trying to mess with Strava. I have congenial hypertension, which is controlled with medication and diet - but she is concerned that trying to mess with PR's and stuff will leave me dead on the side of the trail. Or worse, having a stroke and making me a vegetable staring at mylar balloons.
I have a sh0t-load of insurance to cover these situations (long term disability, long term care and enough life insurance to make her very rich), but I still don't mess with Strava. The point is, is sometimes riders may push themselves into stupid ego-based decision making. Blasting down a hill to beat a record could be considered as such. In the end, it's up to the individual to make those decisions whether sacrificing safety for a number on the screen is worth it. It's not to me.
I wonder if this rider was in a group or two or more, if he would've stopped for the peds. I know when I'm in a group, the general consensus is safety, so in ped vs. bike situations, we usually back off and let the pads have the right away.
Anyhow - rider is a d00ch. Involuntary manslaughter punishable by imprisonment, please. If that doesn't get him, his wages will be garnished for the rest of his life through a civil suit. What an idiot.
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Strava is a powerful drug. You start with just a little, then it becomes more and more. Then all you want to do is ride more with it. Soon you become less social. Not wanting to ride with friends and hoping there is no one on the trail ahead to interfere with you time. Plus when riding with friends, you are only going to stop when you know it's safe to stop and it wont mess up the segment you were just on.
And yes, I am a Stravidian. Help me!
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Walk sign or not, I always look both ways before stepping off the curb. In Chicago I had a walk light and had I not looked I would have stepped out in front of the 18 wheeler barreling down Ashland at 50+ that did not see the light at all nor slow down one bit.
I will have to avoid reading the comments in SFGATE about this due to their probably vile nature, however people should know that cars coming down that part of Market routinely are going 45-50mph, despite the 25mph posted limit.
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Originally Posted by beanbag
Something doesn't make sense here. 35 mph is about 50 feet per second. If you are in the middle of the intersection when the light turns red, the pedestrians only have about 1/4 a second to step out in front of you. How can there already be a line of pedestrians blocking your way?
Agreed here. If I'm not mistaken, from lights I've watched on road while waiting to cross, there's a bit of delay from when it turns red and the "walk" sign appears.
Originally Posted by rho
It happened in SF.
My guess is some number of the pedestrians were already partially in the street when the light started changing yellow.
Even so, that would have been even more visible, especially for someone who rides in SF. I still don't think it adds up, I think he ran the red when he saw the trickle of the early walkers and then the crowd when the walk light turns.
Personally, I hope he gets charged. He made a bad choice and was completely irresponsible and showed no remorse online, except for his gear. Never mind the trail of blood he mentioned. A-hole.
Bucchere ends his account by dedicating the story "to my late helmet."
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Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike
I disagree with Jmartino. It is different in SF.
What do you mean? Entering the intersection on yellow is not illegal in the state of California. If you speed up to enter the intersection on a yellow, you can be cited for reckless driving. Additionally, you can be cited for "gridlocking" if you are stopped in the middle of the intersection if the light turns red.
But if you enter an intersection on a yellow, and the light turns red, you will not be cited (nor will the traffic cameras take your picture.)
According to California vehicle code 21452:
"21452. (a) A driver facing a steady circular yellow or yellow arrow signal is, by that signal, warned that the related green movement is ending or that a red indication will be shown immediately thereafter. "
That does not mean you cannot enter the intersection on yellow. Here's a law firm's website that gives a bit more explanation:
California Motor Vehicle Code 21452 - The Sign to Slow Down - DMV - BISNAR | CHASE Law Firm
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The guy shouldn't be going that fast if he can't slow down, 35 is not that fast. That said, peds need to take responsibility for themselves and look before they cross. The situation sucks, but was definitely avoidable.
I jaywalk all the time and have almost gotten a couple people hit when they blindly crossed into the street 5-10ft behind me. It's amazing what people will do without looking.
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Originally Posted by Axe
How long does it take for a road bike to stop from 30mph?
Much longer than a car[1], it really depends on the skills of the rider. Unless it's something you've practiced, there's no way you can make effective front wheel panic stops w/o flipping the bike. At those speeds the rear brake is largely useless and just causes you to lose control[2]. You have to get your weight back and take the front wheel to just short of skidding. It's pretty tricky since if you skid the front wheel, you're either flipping or going down.
[1]- Ratio of Speed to Stopping Distance
A car stops 43 feet after you press the brake at 30 mph. That's roughly 10 bike lengths. For a car most of the stopping distance at 30 mph is reaction time (i.e. it takes 66 feet to react and 43 feet for the brakes to stop the car. )
[2]- The harder you brake the more weight shifts to the front wheel and the less effective braking on the rear wheel becomes. Classic beginner mistake is to brake hard on the back wheel, wheel breaks loose and the bike instantly high sides.
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assuming you keep the car/bike pointed in the direction of motion
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Originally Posted by FKFW
Strava is a powerful drug. You start with just a little, then it becomes more and more. Then all you want to do is ride more with it. Soon you become less social. Not wanting to ride with friends and hoping there is no one on the trail ahead to interfere with you time. Plus when riding with friends, you are only going to stop when you know it's safe to stop and it wont mess up the segment you were just on.
And yes, I am a Stravidian. Help me!
it's not a drug. sometimes people just have a problem with self control and make bad decisions. you can't blame a web service. if you don't talk to your friends because you are trying to do something online you probably have some issues with your priorities. i understand the i'm-going-to-give-it-some-extra-effort-because-someone-is-watching thing, but really.. you are the master of your universe. take responsibility for yourself.
i don't know what happened here. the outcome is most unfortunate. i'm sure there are people that go down castro faster whether they are tracking their time online or not (for what it's worth, his fastest avg speed down the segment people are talking about was 17.4mph and that is around 21% slower than the fastest tracked speed of 22mph) furthermore, on average 16 pedestrians are killed by cars in sf every year (source) that's not to diminish this tragedy in anyway, just a bit of perspective. my condolences to the family of the deceased. and i hope this person learns something from this and if nothing else is held responsible for the outcome of his actions and the crass nature of his comments.
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Agreed there are a lot of people who don't look and step out into traffic. BUT, in this situation, according to the evening news interview with the widow, her husband always waited a second or two before crossing. Her statement was that the light turned green for them, and everyone started walking, except her husband. He was lagging behind. She heard the screams and crash, turned around, and saw her husband on the ground bleeding profusely. He was 71. She is slightly younger. In my experience, elderly folks are not the ones to step out into the crosswalk early.
Combine this with the statement the bicyclist made, that he was already too committed to stop, and aimed for the thinnest part of the crowd to plow through.
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Originally Posted by mtnmark
The guy shouldn't be going that fast if he can't slow down, 35 is not that fast. That said, peds need to take responsibility for themselves and look before they cross. The situation sucks, but was definitely avoidable.
Agreed and an unfortunate situation for sure. I've noticed that in bigger cities, the pedestrians tend to look less and just go by the signal, almost like the christmas tree lights at a drag race track. After spending some time in South America some time back, I learned to for sure look before crossing, even with a green light at a crosswalk. Sure, you might have the legal right of way, but the laws of physics might have a different "legal opinion".
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You guys need to understand the intersection we are talking about here. Cyclist was traveling southbound crossing Market Street. It's a downhill approach, so you can pick up speed pretty quickly. Okay, so he entered while the light was yellow, and then it turned red while he was in the middle of the intersection. He crossed 4 lanes of Market Street and tried to weave through the pedestrians who already started to walk. The collision occurred on the southern crosswalk.
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Cyclist Who Struck Pedestrian At Castro: "I Just Plowed Through The Crowded Crosswalk": SFist: San Francisco
The cyclist who struck a 71-year-old pedestrian — who later died from his injuries — at Castro and Market Streets last week allegedly took to the Internet on the day of the incident to tell his side of the story. In a message posted on the Mission Cycling Club forum, member Chris Bucchere apparently identified himself as the cyclist responsible for the crash in an incredibly detailed post describing his early morning ride from San Francisco to the Marin headlands and back. From Bucchere's post on March 29th:
[Emphasis, ours]
Around 8 a.m. I was descending Divisadero Street southbound and about to cross Market Street. The light turned yellow as I was approaching the intersection, but I was already way too committed to stop. The light turned red as I was cruising through the middle of the intersection and then, almost instantly, the southern crosswalk on Market and Castro filled up with people coming from both directions. The intersection very long and the width of Castro Street at that point is very short, so, in a nutshell, blammo.
The quote/unquote 'scene of the crime' was that intersection right by the landmark Castro Theatre - it leads from a really busy MUNI station to that little plaza where The Naked Guy always hangs out. It was commuter hour and it was crowded as all getup. I couldn't see a line through the crowd and I couldn't stop, so I laid it down and just plowed through the crowded crosswalk in the least-populated place I could find.
I don't remember the next five minutes but when I came to, I was in a neck brace being loaded into an ambulance. I remember seeing a RIVER of blood on the asphalt, but it wasn't mine. Apparently I hit a 71-year-old male pedestrian and he ended up in the ICU with pretty serious head injuries. I really hope he ends up OK."
The posts on Mission Cycling Club's message board have since been removed and SFPD still has yet to officially identify the cyclist involved in the incident, so there are still some doubts here, but the DA's office is already looking in to the connection.
According to both the Marin Independent Journal and the Guardian, however, a map of Bucchere's ride recorded by GPS app Strava allegedly showed him doing 35 mph while crossing Market. That ride record has also been deleted, but was referenced by other members of the Mission Cycling forum SF2G forum.
In the end, Bucchere says his bike was confiscated by the cops. Although he expressed some well wishes for the elderly victim who was expected to survive at the time but later died, Bucchere ended his note with an ode to his headgear, writing: "In closing, I want to dedicate this story to my late helmet. She died in heroic fashion today as my head slammed into the tarmac... The moral of this little story is: WYFH." Or, in other words: Wear your ****ing helmet — a sentiment other commenters doubted, responding: "I'm not sure that's the moral of the story."
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My guess is that he was running red lights at the fat intersection.
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Originally Posted by tburger
Or, in other words: Wear your ****ing helmet — a sentiment other commenters doubted, responding: "I'm not sure that's the moral of the story."
This is it. Pedestrians in San Francisco should wear helmets. I think city council should issue an ordinance.
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Originally Posted by Axe
This is it. Pedestrians in San Francisco should wear helmets. I think city council should issue an ordinance.
Don't put ideas in their head. They probably will, maybe body armor too.
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