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  1. #1
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    Culvert Trail: WTF Happened?!

    Returned from AZ for the first time in two years and rode Culvert the other day.

    Jesuz, WTF happened? Thanks to the volunteers and all, but who the fock owned the new design? It is *horrid*. Took out everything fun I loved with the old trail. Any reason it had to be constructed like a bowling alley on acid? Whats wrong with rocks & roots?

    Someone else better design the next project in Auburn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hubcentric View Post
    Returned from AZ for the first time in two years and rode Culvert the other day.

    Jesuz, WTF happened? Thanks to the volunteers and all, but who the fock owned the new design? It is *horrid*. Took out everything fun I loved with the old trail. Any reason it had to be constructed like a bowling alley on acid? Whats wrong with rocks & roots?
    The more a trail sucks the less a spode does.
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  3. #3
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    A few others have posted in previous threads that they are not as fond of the new, improved Culvert...of course 'ya can't please everyone, and naturally not everyone shares your opinion.
    I now live near and ride Culvert a few to several times a month and really enjoy the trail and am appreciative of all the volunteers that made it happen.
    Here is a link to the agencies responsible if you really want to voice your opinion directly to them. Culvert Trail Project - Quick update
    and How to build a Culvert Trail berm just right!

    Who knows, maybe based on your impassioned plea they may rework it and painstakingly restore it to its original condition, just for you.

    Good Luck and welcome to the forum.
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  4. #4
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    The trend does seem to be less rocks and roots and more smoothness.
    I like to ride bikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hubcentric View Post
    Returned from AZ for the first time in two years and rode Culvert the other day.

    Jesuz, WTF happened? Thanks to the volunteers and all, but who the fock owned the new design? It is *horrid*. Took out everything fun I loved with the old trail. Any reason it had to be constructed like a bowling alley on acid? Whats wrong with rocks & roots?

    Someone else better design the next project in Auburn.
    you are entitled to your opinion of course, and I love rocks and roots too, but I happen to really enjoy the new design. I find I can get my rock & root fill elsewhere, and now on Culvert I have a place to get my berm & flow fix too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    you are entitled to your opinion of course, and I love rocks and roots too, but I happen to really enjoy the new design. I find I can get my rock & root fill elsewhere, and now on Culvert I have a place to get my berm & flow fix too.
    That's a good point. I bet there are more rock and root trails than there are burm and flow trails.
    Personally I learned to ride in New England. When I first moved to CA I was super excited to get away from all the rocks and roots. Now I miss the rocks and roots and will go out of my way to find them. But mostly I end up at Demo.
    I like to ride bikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    you are entitled to your opinion of course, and I love rocks and roots too, but I happen to really enjoy the new design. I find I can get my rock & root fill elsewhere, and now on Culvert I have a place to get my berm & flow fix too.
    +1

    p

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    Quote Originally Posted by otis24 View Post
    That's a good point. I bet there are more rock and root trails than there are burm and flow trails.
    Personally I learned to ride in New England. When I first moved to CA I was super excited to get away from all the rocks and roots. Now I miss the rocks and roots and will go out of my way to find them. But mostly I end up at Demo.
    Murder's trail is a stupid fun alternate route if you need a rock fix. And it's tech makes the old Culvert look like a smooth "bowling alley on acid" (which it pretty much was).

    P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P View Post
    Murder's trail is a stupid fun alternate route if you need a rock fix. And it's tech makes the old Culvert look like a smooth "bowling alley on acid" (which it pretty much was).

    P
    I agree, Murderers (not Murders) is a good tech trail in the area, but even it has been a bit "sanitized" in the last few years. Also, the old Culvert was hardly smooth unlike the new Culvert.

    Even though I'm no fan of so called flow trails (read:smooth ribbons), I have no objections to them being built. What I DO object to is replacing old established trails with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbnutty View Post
    Even though I'm no fan of so called flow trails (read:smooth ribbons), I have no objections to them being built. What I DO object to is replacing old established trails with them.
    *exactly*

  11. #11
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    Culvert Trail: WTF Happened?!

    I for one have really grown to love the new Culvert trail. I've been riding that trail for 15 years and always enjoyed its roughness. I was skeptical of the changes at first, but now that I've learned how to ride a flow trail properly, I've grown to love the new Culvert.

    With that said, I still love good rocky and techy trails and Auburn has plenty of them. A recent fav of mine is Grizzly trail. Auburn is great, you can link a bunch of trails together and get everything from long easy climbs, hard techy climbs, gnarly rocky scary DH, and fast flowy trails with a few fun features. All in one ride. Pretty awesome if you ask me.

    I don't miss the old Culvert anymore.


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    The old culvert was a "rough" trail? Seriously? Has anyone ever seen ANY technical riding? Rough and technical, the old culvert was not. Fun and fast, it was. Sure, there were a few rocks within and places to air off of, but it was hardly "rough". In the end, people are lazy and it's far easier to build a flat/smooth trail with a trail dragon than hack out interesting singletrack by hand for the most part.
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.O.B. View Post
    A few others have posted in previous threads that they are not as fond of the new, improved Culvert...of course 'ya can't please everyone, and naturally not everyone shares your opinion.
    I now live near and ride Culvert a few to several times a month and really enjoy the trail and am appreciative of all the volunteers that made it happen.
    Here is a link to the agencies responsible if you really want to voice your opinion directly to them. Culvert Trail Project - Quick update
    and How to build a Culvert Trail berm just right!

    Who knows, maybe based on your impassioned plea they may rework it and painstakingly restore it to its original condition, just for you.

    Good Luck and welcome to the forum.
    if your being sacrastic, I can't tell......................he has a seriously good reason to complain, anyone who didn't know it was reworked into the beginner trail that it is now would be right to come to a local section of a forum to ask wtf?? Yeah, it's ok now, the more you ride it, but really, it's much worse than it was.............S curves on flat with tiny burms do not a fun trail make.............
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  14. #14
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    Just have to appreciate it for what it is and it isn't so bad.

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    saw some guys on road bikes riding it a few weeks back.

    lold

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    nice video, proves how slow the trail is by how much you're having to pedal.........again, it's not a bad trail, it's just so much worse than before, and with all that space had such potential. It's truly and example of how not to design a trail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich H. View Post
    Just have to appreciate it for what it is and it isn't so bad.

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    Culvert Trail: WTF Happened?!

    Quote Originally Posted by digthemlows View Post
    nice video, proves how slow the trail is by how much you're having to pedal.........again, it's not a bad trail, it's just so much worse than before, and with all that space had such potential. It's truly and example of how not to design a trail.
    You don't have to pedal, maybe two short spots. It shows that he was hauling (or maybe that I'm really slow)
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    yeah, you don't "have" to pedal, but given the descent and length, you shouldn't need to, the trail doesn't "flow", you can't really "pump" ..............and I know, people will tell me how they can, etc etc............but it's not as good as it could be.......and it's not as fast as it was..............it's ok, I don't ride it anymore, I stick with the trails into Mammoth ...... things change, and I'm not looking for someone to do anything, I just hope this kind of thing doesn't happen again, a GREAT opportunity was screwed up with whomever designed this new trail
    Master of Nothing, but dammit if I don't try..............

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by digthemlows View Post
    ...and it's not as fast as it was...
    No Shit! That was part of State Parks requirements for the realignment that State Parks requested!


    Quote Originally Posted by digthemlows View Post
    ...I just hope this kind of thing doesn't happen again, a GREAT opportunity was screwed up with whomever designed this new trail
    I'm glad that you can state the you don't like the trail, therefor the designer screwed up the trail. Nice sense of entitlement.

    The trail was executed to fit certain design criteria. The old Culvert was so ruined and fast, it was asked to be changed. It was changed within the requests of State Parks. The trail is professionally built and sustainable - and for State Parks, safer for riders and multiuse.

    I'm ok with e-whining that you don't like it. But you can't say the designer "screwed up". Because they didn't. They did what was required.

    I thought we had covered all of this in the other thread...

    P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P View Post
    No Shit! That was part of State Parks requirements for the realignment that State Parks requested!

    I'm glad that you can state the you don't like the trail, therefor the designer screwed up the trail. Nice sense of entitlement.

    The trail was executed to fit certain design criteria. The old Culvert was so ruined and fast, it was asked to be changed. It was changed within the requests of State Parks. The trail is professionally built and sustainable - and for State Parks, safer for riders and multiuse.

    I'm ok with e-whining that you don't like it. But you can't say the designer "screwed up". Because they didn't. They did what was required.

    P
    Are you the designer?? why are you hurt over this?? Really, the current way it was done is the "ONLY" way huh? I don't believe that, but that's ok......it's obvious that a lot of people don't like it, I hope that's taken into consideration the next time the opportunity comes up to rebuild a trail. I'm not personally attacking the designer, I am attacking the design.......I don't care what the back story is, or that it had to comply with something or other........i'm merely stating it isn't fun and could have been better...whatever person, people, or agency kept it from being good, I hope they listen.........if they dont, whatever, it's not the only trail around, it's just a shame, that's all.............
    Master of Nothing, but dammit if I don't try..............

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P View Post

    safer for riders and multiuse.


    P
    Judging from the video posted above, this new trail most certainly accomplishes that.................
    Last edited by mtbnutty; 05-17-2013 at 01:48 PM.

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    Personally, I really like the work Greg Wells did with FATRAC, Sean Allan and others on the Connector Trail years back. It would be good to bring in Greg's design expertise to future projects if he is available (I know he retired, but he used to consult). The Connector Trail is a well-loved trail from what I've observed.

    Also, the Sierra Buttes Trail Stewardship does great trail design/building and has a licensed/insured mechanized crew + big volunteer base available for projects just like this. They produce excellent work.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich H. View Post
    Just have to appreciate it for what it is and it isn't so bad.

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    Knee pads and moto goggles, really?
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbnutty View Post
    Judging from the video posted above, this new trail most certainly accomplishes that.................
    Can you go that fast on that trail?

    I can't.

    Neither can you. And the vast majority of other riders.

    That is why that video is so impressive.

    Try again.

    P

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    Knee pads and moto goggles, really?
    Hellz yeah brah, toad-alley helps when you're shreddin' gnar fire roads!

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by digthemlows View Post
    Are you the designer?? why are you hurt over this?? Really, the current way it was done is the "ONLY" way huh? I don't believe that, but that's ok......it's obvious that a lot of people don't like it, I hope that's taken into consideration the next time the opportunity comes up to rebuild a trail. I'm not personally attacking the designer, I am attacking the design.......I don't care what the back story is, or that it had to comply with something or other........i'm merely stating it isn't fun and could have been better...whatever person, people, or agency kept it from being good, I hope they listen.........if they dont, whatever, it's not the only trail around, it's just a shame, that's all.............
    I'm not the designer.

    But there are plenty of designers, builders and volunteers reading these threads.

    Who, now, will want to volunteer to work on a pre-existing trail with all the whining?

    Don't lift a shovel or a phone, but run to MTBR saying the design sucks. That sends a good message to all those who spent many hours of their own time volunteering, working on this trail and trails to come.

    Nobody is getting rich off this.

    This is not a product you are purchasing, this was built by people who gave up their time and effort for the MTB community.

    Be thankful for what you have.

    If you are not... Contribute to make it better.


    Infighting will kill us.

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    Are we having a pissing contest now? The OP stated the trail isn't as good as it was...........we got a video of a sponsored Enduro rider going fast.........what the hell are you being snarky about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P View Post
    Can you go that fast on that trail?

    I can't.

    Neither can you. And the vast majority of other riders.

    That is why that video is so impressive.

    Try again.

    P
    Master of Nothing, but dammit if I don't try..............

  28. #28
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    But you are the one fighting..........I think that most people agree, it's not as good as it was, and I've heard from pro builders that it could have been better. And do you know if I ever help, participate, or do anything past coming here?? No, you do not..........I don't want to argue, but if my opinion isn't allowed because it might hurt someones feelings on the internet, well that's just laughable........I'm glad you like the trail........I do not...........And for anyone that designs and volunteers..........thanks, but if your build something be prepared for not everyone to bow down to you if it's not fun..........I've built crap before, and people have let me know, and I'm glad, that way I can learn from my mistakes.........and yeah, you can't please everyone, but in the case of Culvert, I'd say it's not a small number that are bothered...........I'll bow out from this, as we're going in circles........OP, you are not alone in your thoughts. and MrP thanks for volunteering

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P View Post
    I'm not the designer.

    But there are plenty of designers, builders and volunteers reading these threads.

    Who, now, will want to volunteer to work on a pre-existing trail with all the whining?

    Don't lift a shovel or a phone, but run to MTBR saying the design sucks. That sends a good message to all those who spent many hours of their own time volunteering, working on this trail and trails to come.

    Nobody is getting rich off this.

    This is not a product you are purchasing, this was built by people who gave up their time and effort for the MTB community.

    Be thankful for what you have.

    If you are not... Contribute to make it better.


    Infighting will kill us.

    P
    Master of Nothing, but dammit if I don't try..............

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P View Post
    Can you go that fast on that trail?

    I can't.

    Neither can you. And the vast majority of other riders.

    That is why that video is so impressive.

    Try again.

    P

    Good god man, you completely missed the point. Let me make this simple.

    You stated that the trail is "safer for rider and multiuse".

    Well, the a$$hat in the video clearly demonstrates otherwise.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbnutty View Post
    Good god man, you completely missed the point. Let me make this simple.

    You stated that the trail is "safer for rider and multiuse".

    Well, the a$$hat in the video clearly demonstrates otherwise.
    My god man, that is one rider... a pro... none of us can get close to being that fast.

    Are there hundreds of pros railing down the trail?

    No.

    P

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by digthemlows View Post
    I think that most people agree, it's not as good as it was, and I've heard from pro builders that it could have been better.
    The most people I've spoken with dig it, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

    I'm ok that you don't like it.

    And feel free to express it, just do it through better channels (email the builder!)

    MTBR is not the place for it. (too much hiding behind keyboards & forums induce people to say things they would not normally say... and it's public, which can be used against us)

    Think about the bigger picture of future builds, designers, builders, volunteers, land managers, opposing groups...

    P

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P View Post
    My god man, that is one rider... a pro... none of us can get close to being that fast.

    Are there hundreds of WANNABE pros railing down the trail?

    ahem, YES

    P
    Fixed it for ya. Over and out....................

  33. #33
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    Culvert Trail: WTF Happened?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P View Post
    I'm not the designer.

    But there are plenty of designers, builders and volunteers reading these threads.

    Who, now, will want to volunteer to work on a pre-existing trail with all the whining?

    Don't lift a shovel or a phone, but run to MTBR saying the design sucks. That sends a good message to all those who spent many hours of their own time volunteering, working on this trail and trails to come.
    This is the norm when dealing with local trail work. Happens every time a major trail modification is done. Nothing new about it at all.
    A bunch of armchair quarterbacks that do nothing more than ***** and moan about work they did nothing for.


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  34. #34
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    Personally, I think its OK for people to share perspective about trails, both old and new. What they like and dislike. And I think it is very important that feedback should be heard from the user base.

    I like how in another thread John Svahn of the Truckee Donner Land Trust stated that he helped build a trail that received less than stellar reviews. He was honest, humble and accepting of it.

    John S is a super great trail builder, btw and I've had the privilege of working with him on Donner Lake Rim Trail and other Truckee projects. I hope we can work together again on the DLRT this summer with FATRAC, MBOSC and others.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by digthemlows View Post
    Are you the designer?? why are you hurt over this?? Really, the current way it was done is the "ONLY" way huh? I don't believe that, but that's ok......it's obvious that a lot of people don't like it, I hope that's taken into consideration the next time the opportunity comes up to rebuild a trail. I'm not personally attacking the designer, I am attacking the design.......I don't care what the back story is, or that it had to comply with something or other........i'm merely stating it isn't fun and could have been better...whatever person, people, or agency kept it from being good, I hope they listen.........if they dont, whatever, it's not the only trail around, it's just a shame, that's all.............
    NOT FUN! I loved the old trail, but to say it's not fun is a joke! I have not heard 1person say it is not fun. It's not fun for you probably because you can't ride anything but a straight line and that's ok! You should practice some and you will enjoy mountain biking even more.
    How can riding your bike in auburn not be fun!!

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    Two things:

    1) If you are disappointed in the design of the new trail and say so, it does not make you a hater/whiner/lazy/monday AM quarterback/instigator/troublemaker. Dismissing people like this is WEAK. We (the users) are gonna talk, and you should listen... even if you don't like what we say.

    2) Look at the reaction to the design of the Tamarancho trail. People love it. Why? Because it was designed right.

    Hoping the next trail is designed by another. That is all.

  37. #37
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    Culvert Trail: WTF Happened?!

    Quote Originally Posted by memine View Post
    Personally, I really like the work Greg Wells did with FATRAC, Sean Allan and others on the Connector Trail years back. It would be good to bring in Greg's design expertise to future projects if he is available (I know he retired, but he used to consult). The Connector Trail is a well-loved trail from what I've observed.

    Also, the Sierra Buttes Trail Stewardship does great trail design/building and has a licensed/insured mechanized crew + big volunteer base available for projects just like this. They produce excellent work.
    Interesting that you bring up both Greg Wells and Sierra Buttes Trail Stewardship.
    They both participated in a trail work day at Granite Bay yesterday.
    It was my understanding that we will be seeing both of them working in the Folsom/Auburn area a lot more in the near future.


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  38. #38
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    Culvert Trail: WTF Happened?!

    This is a cool thread. I rode the old culvert trail. I haven't ridden the new one.

    Just a quick take on things.

    It's hard to hurt trail builders feelings. There is so much going on people don't realize. I often hear people complain and the more I learn the more the complaints sound well sophomoric. The challenge of a trail builder is to make a complainer a volunteer.

    The best way to change a trail you don't like is to volunteer. It is a powerful thing. If you dedicate yourself and commit to an area you can have a real impact but don't expect it all to change overnight. The upside is the path will make you a better rider and a better person.

    The irony is that once you are down the path far enough sooner or later someone will be trash talking "your trail". The wheel of life goes round and round like mountain bike wheels.

    New trails are rare. Getting permission to redo an old trail is way easier. In fact this is where most of the action will be in the future for a lot of reasons. Get ready for change. Trails will change with changing riding styles.

    Speaking of constant change. Trails are always changing. If you don't like it wait a winter or two. Wait less if you volunteer and you can direct the change. Trails are not museums. Well maybe in Marin they are. In my opinion trails that are changing due to hard work indicate a healthy mountain bike community. Change that favors bikes should make us all proud. Even if it isn't the change you want.

  39. #39
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    Well for what it's worth, me and a few of my buddies started at the divide trail and rode up and then all the way down to the Culvert/Confluence. It was all our first time riding the Culvert since the re-build, and every single one of us was VERY satisfied with the changes they made. I have been reading threads like this and wasn't sure what to expect, but it was unanimous that we all loved it. No question, my 4 buddies and I are all fans, so... yeah.

  40. #40
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    As part of my volunteer work on the new Scott's Flat Trail near Nevada City, I've surveyed the new trail in preparation for the trail easement (my work is not quite done yet).

    I think people will be very pleased with how the SFT project is turning out once it opens officially. Very different than Culvert. Some of the same people from FTA worked hard on both trails (from what Steve Minnear tells me, FTA heavily influenced the much-discussed design of the Culvert Trail).

    The Scott's Flat Trail benefitted from the hard work of Dieter, Matt, Randy and some other great people (BONC, YBONC) not as closely tied to the Culvert project and that may have made the difference on how well it is turning out (?), who knows. In any case, thanks to everyone who has worked on SFT, both on and off the dirt.

    A bunch of people on the SFT project put in lots and lots of hours (think 100+ hours) but never moved any dirt. Their kind of effort is crucial but often overlooked when credit is handed out, which is too bad.

    Even though the new Culvert design does not appeal to me at all, I thank those who volunteered on the project. As I said before, it will likely evolve quickly and hopefully for the best.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewtality View Post
    Interesting that you bring up both Greg Wells and Sierra Buttes Trail Stewardship.
    They both participated in a trail work day at Granite Bay yesterday.
    It was my understanding that we will be seeing both of them working in the Folsom/Auburn area a lot more in the near future.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Dude, what happened out there?? I rode that section and it was totally ruined! That used to be my favorite trail!
    All out of S**** and down to my last F***

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzaro View Post
    Dude, what happened out there?? I rode that section and it was totally ruined! That used to be my favorite trail!
    I saw you checking things out.

    Good luck on riding that line any time soon.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewtality View Post
    I saw you checking things out.

    Good luck on riding that line any time soon.


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    Sorry, meant that as a joke in reference to all the ongoing trail work drama. I was chatting with Empty about the work being done out there and the WST/TS100 drama. I appreciate the work being done on the trails I enjoy.
    All out of S**** and down to my last F***

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzaro View Post
    Sorry, meant that as a joke in reference to all the ongoing trail work drama.
    I know. I don't get many smileys to work with on Tapatalk so everything comes across way too serious.
    Still, you should have grabbed a Pulaski and ripped up some dirt with us.


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    wow, what an ass you are.........you don't know me, nor my riding, so if you are somehow hurt by what I post on the internet, leave it be man..........don't attack my ability it has nothing to do with the content of this thread, thanks......

    Quote Originally Posted by napa View Post
    NOT FUN! I loved the old trail, but to say it's not fun is a joke! I have not heard 1person say it is not fun. It's not fun for you probably because you can't ride anything but a straight line and that's ok! You should practice some and you will enjoy mountain biking even more.
    How can riding your bike in auburn not be fun!!
    Master of Nothing, but dammit if I don't try..............

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by memine View Post
    As part of my volunteer work on the new Scott's Flat Trail near Nevada City, I've surveyed the new trail in preparation for the trail easement (my work is not quite done yet).

    I think people will be very pleased with how the SFT project is turning out once it opens officially. Very different than Culvert. Some of the same people from FTA worked hard on both trails (from what Steve Minnear tells me, FTA heavily influenced the much-discussed design of the Culvert Trail).

    The Scott's Flat Trail benefitted from the hard work of Dieter, Matt, Randy and some other great people (BONC, YBONC) not as closely tied to the Culvert project and that may have made the difference on how well it is turning out (?), who knows. In any case, thanks to everyone who has worked on SFT, both on and off the dirt.

    A bunch of people on the SFT project put in lots and lots of hours (think 100+ hours) but never moved any dirt. Their kind of effort is crucial but often overlooked when credit is handed out, which is too bad.

    Even though the new Culvert design does not appeal to me at all, I thank those who volunteered on the project. As I said before, it will likely evolve quickly and hopefully for the best.
    I went back through this thread and counted 9 that like the trail and 5 that don't like it.

    FTA is very proud of the work we did on the Culvert, as we should be, we worked our butts off. But it wasn't only because of dirt moved or berms shaped, or designs executed, It was also because we had a positive work relationship with ASRA, FATRAC, and the different local riders who cared enough to pitch in. And it wasn't easy, there were alot of design disagreements that we had to work through. Remember, trail builder's have criteria to follow if they want to get a trail built, yet alone be invited to build more. You have to consider the land and how it will be impacted. You need to consider user groups, bikes, hiker's, etc you need to consider what the land manager's want. This might come as a surprise, but excitement for riders doesn't top the list. It makes sense then that FTA was chosen, because we have a consistent track record of good working relations with land manager's and different user groups, as well as designing and building fun and engaging trails that try to strike a balance within the guidelines that we need to adhere to. Remember the days of the old Culvert trail were numbered, and something needed to happen.

    As far as Scott's is concerned,I am fully aware of volunteer hours and also the amount of hours I spent working on this project. The credit for me, and the other volunteers that I work with, is not only the incredible new trail that we will soon have in our community, but also the prospect of building more trails. Both the Culvert and Scott's is a positive step in the right direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewtality View Post
    Interesting that you bring up both Greg Wells and Sierra Buttes Trail Stewardship.
    They both participated in a trail work day at Granite Bay yesterday.
    It was my understanding that we will be seeing both of them working in the Folsom/Auburn area a lot more in the near future.
    Very cool. I am trying to get them involved with local Land Trust projects as well.

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    Sure, changes to Culvert were needed, they just needed to be not crap changes that sanitized the trail. If you don't understand that, maybe you shouldn't be driving trail machinery and paving wide a** flat trails and calling yourself an "elite trailbuilder".

  49. #49
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    Easy Johnny, take your Ritalin, your starting to foam at the mouth. what's done is done. Next time do what most concerned, mature individuals do when they want to affect a change, get involved. Stop whining like a spoiled little privileged brat and go help an old lady cross the street or something. I tried in my earlier post to address you like an adult, but I guess my perception was a little off. Well, That tends to happen when you can't look at the person you are talking to. We have heard your 1/2 cents worth of criticism, can we move on now?


    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubcentric View Post
    Sure, changes to Culvert were needed, they just needed to be not crap changes that sanitized the trail. If you don't understand that, maybe you shouldn't be driving trail machinery and paving wide a** flat trails and calling yourself an "elite trailbuilder".

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    I enjoy the Culvert improvements and greatly appreciate the efforts of those improving trails for cycling. There are several trail access issues that have troubled me lately from equestrians, State Parks, and other restrictions on cycling. Yet, I have the opportunity ride several local trails purpose built for cycling such as FDLT, connector, and other various trails from Auburn to the Sierras. Additional cycling trails are coming online such as Culvert improvements, Scott's Flat, and Hidden Falls. I do what I can to support these efforts, and appreciate the dedication and results of the the devoted advocates.

  51. #51
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    Nice try, but while you paved over Culvert, I was in AZ helping on some great new trail rebuilds. If my crew replaced a well known fun technical-but-unsustainable trail with a boring sustainable one, we'd get the same blowback your getting right now.

    Easy enough for you to say "whats done is done". You don't live in Auburn do you? You don't have to live with the new wide, best-on-a-road-bike version of Culvert.

    Don't worry I'm gonna continue to volunteer, but I'll be far, far away from trail sanitation projects.

    - Zach



    Quote Originally Posted by mossterioso View Post
    Easy Johnny, take your Ritalin, your starting to foam at the mouth. what's done is done. Next time do what most concerned, mature individuals do when they want to affect a change, get involved. Stop whining like a spoiled little privileged brat and go help an old lady cross the street or something. I tried in my earlier post to address you like an adult, but I guess my perception was a little off. Well, That tends to happen when you can't look at the person you are talking to. We have heard your 1/2 cents worth of criticism, can we move on now?


    ...

  52. #52
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    Had a rain day today from work and a chance to get caught up. I am going to feed the bear here and attempt to share my perspective. For what it is worth.


    FTA was invited to assist the local ranger and user group to address critical issues on the Culvert. At the top of the list was erosion. Safety was also an consideration.

    We have had quite a bit of work in the real world working with state parks and other land managers. We have spent the time taking federal trail trainings that cost $1000s of dollars, working with landmanagers and building legal trail. All so we could better understand the considerations and guidelines placed by all land managers whose #1 issue is environmental damage.

    We were part of a dialog and even though the Ranger called the shots, there was a lot of creativity and flexibility applied to keep the trail engaging. Trail closures to mtn bikes is pretty common, especially in state parks. There is a current effort to review every trail with sight lines and other issues considered to determine if cyclists are appropriate. I praise the fwd thinking of the Ranger and his willingness to contribute his personal time and creativity to accomplish a solution. So rare.

    Culvert Trail is a Multi Use Trail. While we were working on the trail, we encountered runners, hikers and many cyclists other than your long travel hammer types. The tight turn at the very bottom we replaced that had major erosion occurring had two people out of 60+ riders one day we were there who rode it without walking or skidding at slow speed. I think the outcome of Culvert turned out sweet and perhaps people who want more gnarly should pay to ride north star etc...who spends major $$$ managing trail wear and has insurance to manage that level of risk. Public and multi use trails are different, adjust your expectations and you will be happier.

    Everyone from FTA volunteered. We were compensated for our equipment which we reinvested into Scott's Trail. We contributed to solution based dialog. We have many types of members and trails we build. Our vision is about investing in getting volunteers more educated with trail considerations and sharing in the cost of equipment. Trails we build for us (like Scotts and FC) may look different to projects we do to raise funds because... we are not in charge and we are there in service.

    Trails are important. All types. But more important are the people willing to build them. It is very frustrating when some use this type of forum to take out their personal vendettas like MEMINE and his other AVATARS. This dude got kicked from BONC when he called the Culvert Ranger at home day one and tried to get FTA kicked from the Project. I am not surprised to see him continuing to stomp on our efforts while promoting the land trust he hides behind now which has never built a bike friendly trail. He claims to be volunteering on the Scotts but he has never supported this project. In fact, he kicked me from the BONC list when I asked for help finding the alignment three years ago and has aggressively attempted to undermine it since.

    I personally accept that part of what I do may attract criticism, heck I do my best and I learn new things every year. Part of the risk. But please consider, many of the other volunteers who are considering working rather than riding don't thrive on personal attacks. STFUYWPOS

    We were able to built 9 miles of trail for free last year. Sweet flowy trail. If you want to see MEMINE's example of trail...look no farther than their latest project, Hirschman's Trail in NC. $220,000 of public funds for two miles of trail. Turns so tight when completed you had to get off your bike. This is a great contribution to our community as all trails are, but the standards, politics, flow(lack of) and cost of the trail were a miss. Scott's is our attempt to design and build a flowy fun multi use trail, for and by our community of trail lovers and at a cost that will make getting way more trail built a reality.

    Peace.

  53. #53
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    Culvert Trail: WTF Happened?!

    What I got from MTBR: some cool friends and a lot of cool volunteers...

    What I learned from MTBR: don't feed the bear!

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by zachi View Post

    Trails are important. All types. But more important are the people willing to build them. It is very frustrating when some use this type of forum to take out their personal vendettas like MEMINE and his other AVATARS. .
    I have no horse in this race, still kinda new and just trying to following along. So are memine, hubcentric and Auburn-o-rama all the same person? At least the last two are new to the forum, yet seem to have a single agenda, which would lead one to believe they are a current member.

    Regardless, I am grateful for all new and (dare I say) improved trails and I completely understand that trails on public lands do need to be reworked at times to address a variety of issues. So I am thankful for whomever spearheads these projects and the volunteers who assist. I did a quite a bit of trail work in NC at numerous trails (volunteer grunt); fortunately we did not have the division (or is it passion?) that exists here...but whatever. I still look forward to riding all trails (flowy, technical or somewhere in-between; we really are blessed in this area. And I hope you trail gnomes continue to bring new and/or improved trails to NorCal for us all to enjoy.
    Thanks.
    I no longer deserve a signature.

  55. #55
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    [QUOTE=zachi;10427434]Had a rain day today from work and a chance to get caught up. I am going to feed the bear here and attempt to share my perspective. For what it is worth.


    personal attacks. STFUYWPOS

    Can you clarify what the W stands for? I think the rest is obvious.

  56. #56
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    [QUOTE=Huck Pitueee;10428258]
    Quote Originally Posted by zachi View Post
    Had a rain day today from work and a chance to get caught up. I am going to feed the bear here and attempt to share my perspective. For what it is worth.


    personal attacks. STFUYWPOS

    Can you clarify what the W stands for? I think the rest is obvious.
    Hey Mr. Huck Pitueee,

    I'm without a dog in this fight as well!

    However, I'm voting for "whiny" in this instance. What's your best guess?

    Take care and have fun however you get dirty,

    Michael
    If you can't keep the rubber side down......at least smile for the camera!

  57. #57
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    Culvert Trail: WTF Happened?!-pancake_bunny.jpg
    Banned for showing Boobies.

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    [QUOTE=michaelsnead;10428293]
    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Pitueee View Post

    Hey Mr. Huck Pitueee,

    I'm without a dog in this fight as well!

    However, I'm voting for "whiny" in this instance. What's your best guess?

    Take care and have fun however you get dirty,

    Michael
    LOL!!! It was a toss up between Whimpy, Whining, and Wussy. These counter attacks are standard procedure when anyone doesn't agree with the cult leader.

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    Well, this is my perspective: within one week, there will be almost 30 miles of new singletrack within 25 minutes of my home. This includes Environs Trail, Hidden Falls and Scotts Flat Trail. This is AMAZING. Some areas don't see that much trail construction in a generation.

    I am nothing but grateful to all the volunteers for all they've accomplished. Some of these people are good friends of mine and I've personally thanked them as well.

    All of these new projects involve solid trails which are fun to ride. So I am going to celebrate by riding ALL of it in the next week, plus participate in the Bear Yuba Land Trust National Trails Day events.

    Not only that, much of the high country has melted out PLUS we just got some rain in NorCal so the trails are in near-perfect condition. It really does not get better than this.

    Go get some!

  61. #61
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    Someone else

    Quote Originally Posted by Hubcentric View Post

    Someone else better design the next project in Auburn.
    95% of bikers do not volunteer for trail maintance, so trails have to be designed to hopefully eliminate erosion AND have sight of line for safety.

    All lands have land managers (public or private) have the final say whether you can bike there or even build a trail.

    All public lands near urban centers have OTHER users that use the trails.

    So you come to town and start bashing without really thinking before you open your mouth and demand "Someone else better design".

    Welcome to California, AZ must be a different place...

    - no reply requested from Mr. BIG Travel.

  62. #62
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    Again, he posted his opinion, which we are all allowed to do.........and when you post yours expect that other people have a different one......I'll state again that my opinion is this was a poor design and could have been done better even within the "strict" policies of all involved. People need to get tougher skin or stop building if they can't handle the critique. I'm glad people love it, I know lots that dont...........no offense, I just think it was poorly done.........oh and I'm not pro, I ride for fun, and I'm not hiding behind my computer, anyone who wants to talk about this in person, or go out and ride can PM me and we'll hang out......if the OP is a troll, that sucks, if you are serious, well I'm sorry you've been bashed for your opinion, but it's what MTBR has become, there's alot of whiney dudes afraid their trails are gonna get taken away, and really it's a valid concern considering what's happened in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
    95% of bikers do not volunteer for trail maintance, so trails have to be designed to hopefully eliminate erosion AND have sight of line for safety.

    All lands have land managers (public or private) have the final say whether you can bike there or even build a trail.

    All public lands near urban centers have OTHER users that use the trails.

    So you come to town and start bashing without really thinking before you open your mouth and demand "Someone else better design".

    Welcome to California, AZ must be a different place...

    - no reply requested from Mr. BIG Travel.
    Master of Nothing, but dammit if I don't try..............

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by IAmTheAvatar View Post
    I am the Avatar. I am an ethereal being. I see all, know all, participate in all trail work ever and can ride a nose wheelie on my cross bike down a rock garden. But mostly, I Don't-Give-a-Sh*t-What-You-Think ™.

    digthemlows you are a heretic! Blasphemer! You will be condemned to Eternal Pinch Flats unless you repent!

    To avoid this fate, you must become join the One True Faith, whose principles include:

    1) All wisdom and greatness extends from the Unbelievable One: the MeZiah. All good coming from trail projects are an extension of His Unbelievableness, all failures are the fault of the mean old land manager and people and bike clubs who did not give the MeZiah enough money.

    2) The standard by which all trail building will be judged is this: it must be ridable by a monkey on a tricycle. This means no roots, no rocks, no challenge of any kind. This is what we call "gnar". Tiny berms are necessary so monkeys can corner on three wheels. Monkeys on tricycles are currently an under served segment of the community and we must commit to this least common denominator.

    3) Speaking of monkeys, you must join the cult of the One True Faith. This entails the three Ss of the faithful: Suck, Stroke and Swallow. All three are important, but mostly, you *must* swallow. And post stupid sh*t online when people disagree with you.

    4) For all trail projects, all monies collected must be funneled to the One True Faith as a tithe. No other partner is allowed to collect money. It's just like a lot of churches, see?

    So stop the heresy! It is not too late. Be part of a larger greatness and surrender yourself.

    I am the Avatar and I Don't-Give-a-Sh*t-What-You-Think ™.

    Wow.
    Quoting only for truth and posterity. I have no horse in this fight. I've never met Zachi and as far as I know he is a great guy.
    However Avatar here has three strikes against him, sock puppet, flaming and trolling. I would expect him to soon join the banned.
    Its all Shits and Giggles until somebody Giggles and Shits

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    Ever hear of intellectual paralysis? Uppity "Professional" trail builders have it. The best stuff is usually scratched out by poachers, then ridden in, while everyone else argues about the best angle for the sun to hit painstakingly positioned rocks.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  65. #65
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    First timer Wednesday for the Trifecta, Auburn is great! I had great 4 hour ride, pretty hard up hills near the end but a great place! If you are in Bay Area like me, you gotta' check this out. I was amazed at how flowey and smooth trails are without 3 million knuckleheads around. Berm and jump area similar to Tamarancho, but faster speed. I feel your pain about sanitized trails. Same at Tamarancho in some spots.

  66. #66
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    Auburn is GREAT.....Glad you liked it, and yeah, I have a friend in the city and anytime I visit him, the riding in the Marin Area is crazy with people.....Auburn, even when crowded is a great network of trails!!
    Master of Nothing, but dammit if I don't try..............

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  68. #68
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    ^^^

    And for future posts (and we all know they will come):

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    I no longer deserve a signature.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubertrail View Post
    Yeah... the point was that I did help (first line of my post). Some others did too who feel as I do. Maybe next time we'll have some different talent at the top of these rebuilds.
    I didn't quote you. It was more a reference to the OP and the tone of the thread in general.

    Just a word to the wise. It takes some time to get "in with the in crowd". Even then you can arrange a work day with a project list and have the ideas railroaded. Or even ask to start an entire trail project and watch as another trail builder takes control of the routing, without even so much as introducing himself and plague the entire project with snide remarks and shoddy building that needs to be reworked by hand.

    I'm guessing the culvert trail and every other committee designed project has dynamics like this. I'm sure this is why places like B.C. have such great trails. An area is logged or not scheduled for logging and one or two guys can take charge. It won't likely happen in CA. At least not at a sanctioned venue.

    The most important thing is to not give up. Keep going to the volunteer days and one day you will find yourself in charge of a project with 20 guys asking you what to do or even worse trying to take charge without a clue. If you are lucky one day you may get to hear your work being hated on at the local pub by someone who has never taken part in the build and has no idea how many compromises you had to make.

    Also keep in mind that the best results are achieved when you keep it fun...

    Good luck.

  70. #70
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    kept hearing rumors, jokes, and the like about taking road bikes down. I think a 23c tire just can't suck up the chatter to keep speeds up very well.

    A 28c road tire or a full cx bike would probably be a pretty damn fun time

    Culvert Trail: WTF Happened?!-1010725_10200867921876599_1939606045_n.jpg

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by redmr2_man View Post
    kept hearing rumors, jokes, and the like about taking road bikes down. I think a 23c tire just can't suck up the chatter to keep speeds up very well.

    A 28c road tire or a full cx bike would probably be a pretty damn fun time
    Looks like a good time!

    I rode a Trek Fuel Fuel down the Vista side of NorthStar all day, all runs. And that was the 3" travel, 71* HA, rim brake Fuel.

    It was slower, I didn't catch much air, but it was fun. Probably kinda like a CX bike on the Culvert. (I've seen them go down the Confluence too )

    Don't worry about it getting rough, there are plenty of braking bumps forming... ...in the turns, lol.

    Just give it some time. Riders will ride it while it's thick with mud, ruts will reform, rocks will be exposed, the grasses will grow in to tighten it up. It will take a few years, but it will roughen up. The original wasn't built rough. It will get there.

    P

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