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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    You can't rely on the land managers to do it for you. A trail crew composed of cyclists is the only way to develop cycling friendly trails.


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    Well, when it comes to cutting new trails, you need a SWECO here. The adobe clay is like concrete right now.

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  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Well, when it comes to cutting new trails, you need a SWECO here. The adobe clay is like concrete right now.

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    Every area that I have ridden that is worth a damn has one and it's owned by the trail advocacy group. In an affluent area such as ours why does our local group not own one, or trying to raise funds to buy one? I have more than a few hours in the cab of a SWECO, and would put in a ton more if I had the chance.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Well, when it comes to cutting new trails, you need a SWECO here. The adobe clay is like concrete right now.

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    I thought we were talking about maintaining existing trails? It's beside the point I'm trying to make, which is that unless cyclists in the Bay Area develop a trail crew we won't have access to trails we enjoy using.

    It's not like we don't have examples of this working. Just look at what MBoSC is doing. It's super frustrating to see the same mistakes made over and over again in the Bay Area. All of the latest region 4 "wins" in Marin have the same issues with cattle and those trails will be destroyed the same way as the ones at Crockett. It may take a year or two but it will happen.


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  4. #204
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    is ebrpd open to having volunteers do the work?

    many successful areas have volunteers who do most of the on the ground work where a group is the organizer with permission from the land managers. only occasional oversight and coordination is needed.

    some areas have a mix of professional and volunteers. some have occasional volunteer work days, but led by professionals which means there still needs to be paid staff (scarce resource). these vary from good (often well staffed) to poor (the stories i've heard...).

    some failed ones have utter refusal by the land manager to allow any work to be done by volunteers. they have no professional staff (or just enough to cover the most urgent issues) but also no volunteers.

    i thought ebrpd was at the low quality end of the middle group--they might allow a volunteer group but only with so much staff overhead that it never happens.

  5. #205
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    What are the pragmatic options? Given that the cows are there for the foreseeable future, are there ways local riders can help? Or is the recurring damage bad enough that we should focus our trail work efforts elsewhere?

  6. #206
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    The recurring damage IS bad enough that we should focus our trail work efforts elsewhere, in my opinion.

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  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_510 View Post
    The recurring damage IS bad enough that we should focus our trail work efforts elsewhere, in my opinion.

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    Okay. Where?

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    There has been trail work days there, the Bicycle Trails Council of the East Bay(BTCEB.ORG) has worked with the EBRPD a couple of times and has been in contact with them for future days. The best way to find out when is to join Meetup.com ,the days will be posted there.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by P51mech View Post
    Okay. Where?
    Tamarancho or Downieville/Lost Sierra. I wouldn't waste my time groveling to EBRPD doing trail work on trails I can't legally ride.
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  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmtb View Post
    is ebrpd open to having volunteers do the work?

    many successful areas have volunteers who do most of the on the ground work where a group is the organizer with permission from the land managers. only occasional oversight and coordination is needed.

    some areas have a mix of professional and volunteers. some have occasional volunteer work days, but led by professionals which means there still needs to be paid staff (scarce resource). these vary from good (often well staffed) to poor (the stories i've heard...).

    some failed ones have utter refusal by the land manager to allow any work to be done by volunteers. they have no professional staff (or just enough to cover the most urgent issues) but also no volunteers.

    i thought ebrpd was at the low quality end of the middle group--they might allow a volunteer group but only with so much staff overhead that it never happens.
    I feel that the group that has tackled these issues in the past has turned into less of an advocacy group and more into a social group. They seem to focus on group rides and not so much on the maintenance side. That's one of the main reasons I quit showing up, or having any input. When I first signed up it was because I wanted to see if I could have any influence. I got tired of the "we got this" attitude. I think that to EBPD Crockett was a experiment to see how we the users would embrace the opportunity to build some bike specific trails. I just don't think that anyone ever sat down and took in that once you start building machine built trails that you need a machine to come back every year or two and groom them. One or two days a year with a crew of 20 with some hand tools is going to keep the trail in good shape. As I stated before other trail networks figured this out a long time ago. They had to go out and get the funds to buy the equipment to do so.

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_510 View Post
    Tamarancho or Downieville/Lost Sierra. I wouldn't waste my time groveling to EBRPD doing trail work on trails I can't legally ride.
    Crockett isn't legal?

  12. #212
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    A few token days a year isn't enough. Keeping a spot like Crockett going would mean actively closing the trail when it was too wet. Regular maintenance days of at least once a month. This is what the REMBA is doing at A-Dale and what MBoSC is doing in Santa Cruz. Why it can't be done in the Bay Area is beyond me.

    There are more trails in the Dallas area than all of the Bay Area. The system in the Bay Area is completely dysfunctional and Crockett is just a glaring exception of that.


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  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by rangeriderdave View Post
    There has been trail work days there, the Bicycle Trails Council of the East Bay(BTCEB.ORG) has worked with the EBRPD a couple of times and has been in contact with them for future days. The best way to find out when is to join Meetup.com ,the days will be posted there.
    How many total days in 2016? Short answer three a Joaquin Miller Park and one day a Crockett. That is not nearly enough to maintain the amount of trails in question. I'm not bashing BTCEB I'm just laying down the facts; 90% of what they do has to do with social interaction.

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    I'd be totally in favor of fund raising on a more serious scale... Great idea. The question I have is that even if we bought a sweco and had people to use it, would ebrpd even let us fix the place... They'd probably get flack from environmental groups and their unions about having outside labor in the parks on a bigger scale.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by cohenfive View Post
    I'd be totally in favor of fund raising on a more serious scale... Great idea. The question I have is that even if we bought a sweco and had people to use it, would ebrpd even let us fix the place... They'd probably get flack from environmental groups and their unions about having outside labor in the parks on a bigger scale.
    They allowed it to be built with a SWECO.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by cohenfive View Post
    I'd be totally in favor of fund raising on a more serious scale... Great idea. The question I have is that even if we bought a sweco and had people to use it, would ebrpd even let us fix the place... They'd probably get flack from environmental groups and their unions about having outside labor in the parks on a bigger scale.
    I'm quite certain that the trail group would have to hire a professional for the land manager to use a trail machine like a SWECO.

    After all Jim Jacobsen did the SWECO work at Crockett for EBRPD. So it is possible.

    Trail machines are the cart before the horse. A trail crew run by a volunteer org that was cycling oriented still needs to be in place. The model already exists. MBoSC and others are already doing this very well.

    I'm not seeing it anywhere else but REMBA in Santa Rosa...


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  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    A few token days a year isn't enough. Keeping a spot like Crockett going would mean actively closing the trail when it was too wet. Regular maintenance days of at least once a month. This is what the REMBA is doing at A-Dale and what MBoSC is doing in Santa Cruz. Why it can't be done in the Bay Area is beyond me.

    There are more trails in the Dallas area than all of the Bay Area. The system in the Bay Area is completely dysfunctional and Crockett is just a glaring exception of that.


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    I think that this was a swing in a positive direction and the only thing EBPD got out of it was a bunch of complaining how they weren't doing trail upkeep for us. We showed them we could build a good trail, but didn't show them that we could take care of it. I got the impression that people threw their hands up in the air and quit caring after the first winter. Even on the meetup page there was confusion and issues with registering for the work days. Put up a date and tell people where to meet. Using a third party registration site that works some of the time drove people away.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by P51mech View Post
    I think that this was a swing in a positive direction and the only thing EBPD got out of it was a bunch of complaining how they weren't doing trail upkeep for us. We showed them we could build a good trail, but didn't show them that we could take care of it. I got the impression that people threw their hands up in the air and quit caring after the first winter. Even on the meetup page there was confusion and issues with registering for the work days. Put up a date and tell people where to meet. Using a third party registration site that works some of the time drove people away.
    You can't just rely on people to show up. 90% of them have no idea what they are doing and make it worse. I could give a million examples of that.

    What the Bay Area needs is a trail crew. The model already exists in Santa Cruz. Just cut and paste it to the Bay Area. Sure there is a volunteer component but there is a core group that is not just volunteer. All that is needed after that is permission from the land managers. It would be time consuming to get, but it would happen if the trail crew could produce results.


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    [QUOTE=Davey Simon;13184634]You can't just rely on people to show up. 90% of them have no idea what they are doing and make it worse. I could give a million examples of that.

    What the Bay Area needs is a trail crew. The model already exists in Santa Cruz. Just cut and paste it to the Bay Area. Sure there is a volunteer component but there is a core group that is not just volunteer. All that is needed after that is permission from the land managers. It would be time consuming to get, but it would happen if the trail crew could produce results.


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    Briones would be an unbelievable canvas for a trailbuilding project. Not sure of the history and hurdles in doing something out there. Any work I've been involved with was USFS based which is a different animal entirely.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by P51mech View Post
    Crockett isn't legal?
    Crockett is legal, but my point was it's not worth the time investment to do work there, as it will be continually destroyed by cattle.

    As far as where else we should focus our trail work efforts? Not on any other EBRPD land, because (aside from Crockett) they don't offer any legal singletrack to bikes. What's my incentive for working on those trails? Limp d*ck EBRPD used to do maintenance on hiker and equestrian only trails in hopes that we'd show how eager we were and how hard we can work if given access. That obviously hasn't worked out for us...

    So I'd rather put in work somewhere that cyclists are valued or even prioritized - hence my suggestion of Tamarancho trail work day or helping the SBTS up in The Lost Sierra.
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  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    You can't just rely on people to show up. 90% of them have no idea what they are doing and make it worse. I could give a million examples of that.

    What the Bay Area needs is a trail crew. The model already exists in Santa Cruz. Just cut and paste it to the Bay Area. Sure there is a volunteer component but there is a core group that is not just volunteer. All that is needed after that is permission from the land managers. It would be time consuming to get, but it would happen if the trail crew could produce results.


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    Totally agree

  22. #222
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    The guys and girls that live and ride the trails maintain them in my area. Sometimes 3 or 4 will get together, but for the most part it's a solo thing. You have time, you go out and fix something. All the little somethings add up and your trails get better everyday.

    Yes we have cows and they FUBARed the trails. Already fixed.
    Lots of trees have fallen, big and little. All removed or rerouted.
    An electric weed-wacker can make short work of over grown trails.
    Rangers don't want to deal with trail work if it can be avoided. All user groups appreciate a well maintained trail so very little chance of getting turned in.
    Anyway, not technically legal so proceed at you own risk.

    I'm not going to work on Crocket as it too far away, but I do like to ride it occasionally.

  23. #223
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    If I recall correctly, trail work is part of the union contract in EBRPD.

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  24. #224
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    [QUOTE=chasejj;13184647]
    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    You can't just rely on people to show up. 90% of them have no idea what they are doing and make it worse. I could give a million examples of that.

    What the Bay Area needs is a trail crew. The model already exists in Santa Cruz. Just cut and paste it to the Bay Area. Sure there is a volunteer component but there is a core group that is not just volunteer. All that is needed after that is permission from the land managers. It would be time consuming to get, but it would happen if the trail crew could produce results.


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    Briones would be an unbelievable canvas for a trailbuilding project. Not sure of the history and hurdles in doing something out there. Any work I've been involved with was USFS based which is a different animal entirely.
    I'm going to start out small and concentrate on one park in my area that I think will be open to getting something started. It's city owned and they have a limited budget for trail work. They are going to need it after this last winter.

  25. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_510 View Post
    Crockett is legal, but my point was it's not worth the time investment to do work there, as it will be continually destroyed by cattle.

    As far as where else we should focus our trail work efforts? Not on any other EBRPD land, because (aside from Crockett) they don't offer any legal singletrack to bikes. What's my incentive for working on those trails? Limp d*ck EBRPD used to do maintenance on hiker and equestrian only trails in hopes that we'd show how eager we were and how hard we can work if given access. That obviously hasn't worked out for us...

    So I'd rather put in work somewhere that cyclists are valued or even prioritized - hence my suggestion of Tamarancho trail work day or helping the SBTS up in The Lost Sierra.
    Again... EBPD does not work on any trails for any user other than the roads. Things after the last election are starting to lighten up as one ranger stated "one funeral at a time". For the first time in many years the old guard is retiring or just passing away. This is the most opportune time to turn the tide. The Ranger at the park I ride at said he's not even enforcing the single track rules simply because the people that were twisting his arm to do so just aren't there anymore. It was the same way in Truckee when I moved there in 1995. It only took a few land mangers to retire or die and the door was wide open.

  26. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    The model already exists in Santa Cruz. Just cut and paste it to the Bay Area.
    This would leave Santa Cruz without a trail crew - what we need to do, is copy paste.
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  27. #227
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    So has anyone ridden here ridden Crockett lately? I went two days ago but broke my dropper on the initial climb to the bridge and decided to just head home after that.

  28. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    What the Bay Area needs is a trail crew.
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    For sure but I think the man power is available. The issue is permission mainly as you know.

    Efforts fizzle out year after year and then people just go back to being rogue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TraxFactory View Post
    For sure but I think the man power is available. The issue is permission mainly as you know.

    Efforts fizzle out year after year and then people just go back to being rogue.
    I think the tide is changing. I've been attending the meetings and they have a total different feel than they did even a year ago. There is a lot of new blood in the right places.

  30. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by P51mech View Post
    I think the tide is changing. I've been attending the meetings and they have a total different feel than they did even a year ago. There is a lot of new blood in the right places.
    What kind of meetings? Where? Can the general public attend?

  31. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Mackenzie View Post
    What kind of meetings? Where? Can the general public attend?
    Park board meetings. At this point a fly on the wall seeing who people are and how they operate. Check you local parks and rec for times and dates. All that I know of are open to the public.

  32. #232
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    The two new directors are not bike friendly.

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  33. #233
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    It's harder perhaps than other parks to do trail maintenance in CH because it's not the normal culprits that cause the damage....it's the bloody cows. At least right now it seems we can't hope to ever close trails due to weather from these creatures of mass destruction...and its dishearteningly hard to repair their damage without regrading or importing dirt to fill the divot fields.

    At one point it wasn't looking too bad to make normal user wear and tear repairs to 'Frog'...but once the cows got at it and caused deep divots, grade and berm failures, etc...and to know it will only happen again next wet season...! Who the heck in their right kind wants to throw away their time on that? Hard sell, to be sure, to any volunteers.

    There must be other trail systems in CA or elsewhere that have found a way to manage this level of destruction year after year, rain after rain...anyone have any ideas or contacts?

    As to BTCEB...if the Board needs new energy/juice/blood I have a hard time trying to evisusion another way to better make that happen other than creating some excitiement about the organization thru the use of rides and other such fun functions to raise the level of awareness and desired commitment and involvement. Are there other ways that could also be suggested? (So as not to hikack the thread, if you have ideas in this, please PM me and I will get the ideas to the Board...I go to the meetings fairly often)
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  34. #234
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    We went last Monday. They were working hard with heavy equipment to flatten out the cow damage. Sugar City was nice and maintained. Tree Frog Loop was garbage. Don't waste your time. If you do, cover up your legs and arms and wear eye protection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emjayel View Post
    It's harder perhaps than other parks to do trail maintenance in CH because it's not the normal culprits that cause the damage....it's the bloody cows. At least right now it seems we can't hope to ever close trails due to weather from these creatures of mass destruction...and its dishearteningly hard to repair their damage without regrading or importing dirt to fill the divot fields.

    At one point it wasn't looking too bad to make normal user wear and tear repairs to 'Frog'...but once the cows got at it and caused deep divots, grade and berm failures, etc...and to know it will only happen again next wet season...! Who the heck in their right kind wants to throw away their time on that? Hard sell, to be sure, to any volunteers.

    There must be other trail systems in CA or elsewhere that have found a way to manage this level of destruction year after year, rain after rain...anyone have any ideas or contacts?

    As to BTCEB...if the Board needs new energy/juice/blood I have a hard time trying to evisusion another way to better make that happen other than creating some excitiement about the organization thru the use of rides and other such fun functions to raise the level of awareness and desired commitment and involvement. Are there other ways that could also be suggested? (So as not to hikack the thread, if you have ideas in this, please PM me and I will get the ideas to the Board...I go to the meetings fairly often)
    Cows, snow/rain run off every trail system I've ever been part of has it's own set of issues. The solution is more maintenance at key times of the season. When the soil is more dig friendly. Waiting three months after the soil hardens to the consistency of concrete is an uphill battle. As stated several times in this thread other trail systems that we all enjoy are maintained by stewardships that maintain trails and fundraise. They don't do many group rides or social events.

    The issue I had was that BTCEB often did rides that had to limit numbers to avoid getting a permit. At one gala ride a bunch of cops showed up to make sure those that the number of riders didn't exceed that limit. That was the last day I ever attended a gala ride as a "guide" and was when I decided I was done with the group.

  36. #236
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    I am curious about the history of cattle ranching in the east bay parks. Are those cows used for beef or dairy and are these operations for-profit? Has anyone looked into the prior affiliations of the board members?
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  37. #237
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    Looks like I'll never ride there. Cows are self-driving beef trucks and the trails are their highways.

  38. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    I am curious about the history of cattle ranching in the east bay parks. Are those cows used for beef or dairy and are these operations for-profit? Has anyone looked into the prior affiliations of the board members?
    Beef for sure. Most of the time they are what we call stockers (weaned calves) or cow/calf operations.

    They are most definitely for-profit businesses although many would argue it's not all that profitable and a lot of ranchers have another career to stay afloat. Because the livestock offer benefits to the land, when managed properly, there are no issues with private benefit on public land.

    We went through many decades of hostility and fighting between environmentalists and ranchers. Both sides had good points and bad information. This last decade has seen a merge of science, ranching and environmental stewardship. We've made huge strides towards doing better for the environment and the ranching heritage BUT we haven't quite figured out the trails issue. See the CRCC website for more information on how we have come together. California Rangeland Conservation Coalition | Working to Keep Ranchers, Ranching!

    I'm still trying to figure out an equitable solution to the livestock vs. trails issue but I have not come up with a solution yet. You can bet I will be bringing it up at the next conservation conference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCWages View Post
    Beef for sure. Most of the time they are what we call stockers (weaned calves) or cow/calf operations.

    They are most definitely for-profit businesses although many would argue it's not all that profitable and a lot of ranchers have another career to stay afloat. Because the livestock offer benefits to the land, when managed properly, there are no issues with private benefit on public land.

    We went through many decades of hostility and fighting between environmentalists and ranchers. Both sides had good points and bad information. This last decade has seen a merge of science, ranching and environmental stewardship. We've made huge strides towards doing better for the environment and the ranching heritage BUT we haven't quite figured out the trails issue. See the CRCC website for more information on how we have come together. California Rangeland Conservation Coalition | Working to Keep Ranchers, Ranching!

    I'm still trying to figure out an equitable solution to the livestock vs. trails issue but I have not come up with a solution yet. You can bet I will be bringing it up at the next conservation conference.
    What about electric fences to protect the trails? Is this practical?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    What about electric fences to protect the trails? Is this practical?


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    No. Just electric fences to keep out the annoying silvertail hikers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    What about electric fences to protect the trails? Is this practical?


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    Unfortunately that would only work if the trail does not zig zag through main pasture paddocks. If the property was the right size and shape one could create paddocks based on the trail design but this can prove way too complicated and or expensive in terms of fencing costs min $5.50/ft and water infrastructure. I'm not saying it can't be done on some properties but it is usually way more difficult than most would consider just to appease us MTBrs. Paddocks need to be at least 50+ acres on average. The smaller you make them the more you have to move and manage the cattle which increases costs. Because of the low profit margin on beef the end result could be a loss for the rancher in which case then won't go for it. Not trying to shoot your idea down man. It has merit so keep them coming. We need a toolbox full of options to solve this problem. If I could somehow create hibernating cows I'd be on to something! LOL

  42. #242
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    Thanks for the info. I guess that's a no.


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    [QUOTE=JCWages;13189477]Beef for sure. Most of the time they are what we call stockers (weaned calves) or cow/calf operations.

    They are most definitely for

    You have to remember (at least in Briones) that the damages are on fireroads and wide open valleys (that may have short connector trails through them).
    Not hand built single track primo terrain.

    If we could build some primo terrain , It would probably be possible to provide some form of gate system to discourage bovine traffic. They like to take the easiest route to food,water and shelter (from sun/rain) so it is not rocket science to figure this out.
    I know the ranchers like to keep them penned in to certain areas to make it easier to watch and monitor them. It is a hassle when one of them gets to roaming around.

  44. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    I am curious about the history of cattle ranching in the east bay parks. Are those cows used for beef or dairy and are these operations for-profit? Has anyone looked into the prior affiliations of the board members?
    The land was ranch land to begin with. Part of that lands terms of acquisition was that it was to continue to be used to run cattle for a certain number of generations. Those contracts were written way before our sport even exsisted.

  45. #245
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    [QUOTE=chasejj;13189506]
    Quote Originally Posted by JCWages View Post
    Beef for sure. Most of the time they are what we call stockers (weaned calves) or cow/calf operations.

    They are most definitely for

    You have to remember (at least in Briones) that the damages are on fireroads and wide open valleys (that may have short connector trails through them).
    Not hand built single track primo terrain.

    If we could build some primo terrain , It would probably be possible to provide some form of gate system to discourage bovine traffic. They like to take the easiest route to food,water and shelter (from sun/rain) so it is not rocket science to figure this out.
    I know the ranchers like to keep them penned in to certain areas to make it easier to watch and monitor them. It is a hassle when one of them gets to roaming around.
    All these solutions seem to focus on what other people need to do, and not what can we do. It has been stated several times on this thread that you are not getting rid of the cattle any time soon. It's not up to the ranchers to provide us with good trails and roads. What we need is more trail crews in more areas. You can't count on four trial days a year that have an average of 10 people on the crew. That's a whole lot of trail for one group to deal with. Every place I've ever ridden has it's own unique issues when it come to trail damage. Snow/rain runoff, livestock, and other acts of nature beat up trails. Look at Demo Forest right now for example. Almost totally shut down because of this past winter. Not a cow in site! It's going to take their VERY LARGE trail crew most of the summer to get that back open.

  46. #246
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    Cows have destroyed the natural ecosystem here 150 years ago and are now used to limit vegetation growth. Plus, in the east bay, all new land that the district wants yo acquire belongs to ranchers. So, cows are here for at least our lifetime.

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  47. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Cows have destroyed the natural ecosystem here 150 years ago and are now used to limit vegetation growth. Plus, in the east bay, all new land that the district wants yo acquire belongs to ranchers. So, cows are here for at least our lifetime.
    After machines take over, no cows.

  48. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Cows have destroyed the natural ecosystem here 150 years ago and are now used to limit vegetation growth. Plus, in the east bay, all new land that the district wants yo acquire belongs to ranchers. So, cows are here for at least our lifetime.

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    Don't know how many time others have already stated that on this thread. Oh the cows destroyed the ecosystem? Ahhhhhh because all those houses condos and strip mall didn't harm a thing. I guess not since the cows destroyed it 150 years ago; it was already dead when we killed it.

  49. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by P51mech View Post
    Don't know how many time others have already stated that on this thread. Oh the cows destroyed the ecosystem? Ahhhhhh because all those houses condos and strip mall didn't harm a thing. I guess not since the cows destroyed it 150 years ago; it was already dead when we killed it.
    True enough, but while strip malls will never revert back to green belt status, one could expect that the park district would try to restore natural habitat somewhat in our parks.

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  50. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    True enough, but while strip malls will never revert back to green belt status, one could expect that the park district would try to restore natural habitat somewhat in our parks.

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    That would include you and I to continue to be banned. WE DIDN'T EXIST BACK THEN!

  51. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by P51mech View Post
    That would include you and I to continue to be banned. WE DIDN'T EXIST BACK THEN!
    That is just silly and illogical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    That is just silly and illogical.

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    Natural habitat excludes bikes. We are not natural. We came later as a user group. Natural habitat is close it all off to all users. Give it all back to the rancher that GAVE IT TO US?

  53. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by P51mech View Post
    Natural habitat excludes bikes. We are not natural. We came later as a user group. Natural habitat is close it all off to all users. Give it all back to the rancher that GAVE IT TO US?
    You win the internets debate today.

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  54. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by P51mech View Post
    Natural habitat excludes bikes. We are not natural. We came later as a user group. Natural habitat is close it all off to all users. Give it all back to the rancher that GAVE IT TO US?
    Hi Mike.

  55. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by iSlowpoke View Post
    We went last Monday. They were working hard with heavy equipment to flatten out the cow damage. Sugar City was nice and maintained. Tree Frog Loop was garbage. Don't waste your time. If you do, cover up your legs and arms and wear eye protection.
    Thanks for this post. I'm going to check it out today and report back. Hopefully they got to tree frog in the last couple weeks, too.

    UPDATE: OK, so I went yesterday (06/11) and the trail up to the tunnel was fine as expected.

    Once I got through the tunnel, I took the fire road up to the top of Sugar Hill. Sugar Hill was rideable, but very loose/slippery due to all the clippings/dried weeds in the trail. Easily my worst time going down it. Also there is a spot there that just eats your front wheel and took me OTB! It was still fun, though, but I wish I could have ridden faster and not had to worry about traction so much.

    Tree Frog, well, in a word it was TOTAL SH!T. Okay two words. In the covered areas, there was unbelievable weed infestation of the prickly purple flower kind. All over. Everywhere. I think I managed about 5mph the whole way down. And on the exposed parts of the trail, massive grass coverage made the singletrack invisible. A couple times I just lost the trail completely.

    I didn't even bother with Soaring Eagle; cows were sitting all over it and dealing with Tree Frog had already extended my ride longer than I planned to be out.

    Oh well.
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    The BTC recieved this from the park supervisor."We've gotten a lot done, but we are not yet done. In fact we have an ACE crew starting there tomorrow to do specific work on Sugar City and Tree Frog. They will be there from tomorrow thru the 22nd working. I believe we have finished mowing all the fire roads. The mowing crew was working on the lower side of the park today, but I'm not sure if they finished it".

    I hope that helps & I hope you enjoy your ride...where you decide to ride.

  57. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by rangeriderdave View Post
    The BTC recieved this from the park supervisor."We've gotten a lot done, but we are not yet done. In fact we have an ACE crew starting there tomorrow to do specific work on Sugar City and Tree Frog. They will be there from tomorrow thru the 22nd working. I believe we have finished mowing all the fire roads. The mowing crew was working on the lower side of the park today, but I'm not sure if they finished it".

    I hope that helps & I hope you enjoy your ride...where you decide to ride.
    That's great. Thanks for the feedback!

  58. #258
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    Rode here today.

    Soaring Eagle is really smooth now. Family grade, perfect for taking dog walks or bringing a baby in stroller.

    Sugar City you'll have to watch out in a few corners you're going to get whacked in the face with a weed unless you slow down to a walking speed where you'll still get brushed by the weed. It's kinda slippery because of all the mowed grass and not buffed flat anymore. Aside from the face whacking weeds I enjoyed it.

  59. #259
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    They made the DECISION to allow access. Thats not in any way our fault as a user group. Maybe it wasnt the right decision but a legal and binding decision just the same. Also cant you write off the appreciation of the land since youve allowed access? I mean youre all in defense of private land holders but you have to consider WHY they made the decision to allow access and how theyll benefit from it. They didnt see the foreseen risk in doing so.

  60. #260
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    Checked out conditions today. As noted above, Soaring Eagle is like new again. They ran a Sweco down it. You can see the tread marks. Between the gate where you pass under the road and the top of Sugar City. Flat. Four feet wide.

    Sugar City is better than it was, but still not its former self. This doesn't seem to be the result of repair work, but just usage. Many of the water-bar/speed-bump features were trampled flat through the center and they might as well not be there anymore. There's one place where a small landslide makes a dangerous shaped hump in the trail. At the bottom of SC where it was boggy, the trail now goes across the meadow in a new path seeking dry ground. That bogginess goes on for a long way!

    Tree Frog loop looks to have gotten some hand work to fill in the hoof holes with loose dirt. When you get to where it joins Warep trail, the work stops and the trail gets bumpy again.

    The official park website says Chorus Frog is closed off. The barrier they put up for this is just *before* the junction with the top of Tree Frog. Very ambiguous. There's nothing at the bottom of Tree Frog to deter you from climbing it...

    Whether smooth or bumpy, it's pretty dry everywhere. Still managed to pick up a tick. And the cows are still there, making pies.

    It was a good morning to get up there. Cloud cover the whole time. Temps never over 65. Sun was just starting to come out at noon in Crockett where we stopped post-ride for sandwiches at Valona Deli.

  61. #261
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    Anyone ride Crockett Hills recently? Conditions?

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    I was thinking the same thing...it is dry now, the question is whether trails have been weed whacked and other debris removed. I hope so, it is a little cooler over there than here in Lafayette.

  63. #263
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    You think if enough people ride Sugar City the trail will clean itself up?

    About Tree Frog did anyone else notice a new trail being cut coming off of it? Strava shows it as being Goldfinch Trail.

  64. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Mackenzie View Post
    You think if enough people ride Sugar City the trail will clean itself up?

    About Tree Frog did anyone else notice a new trail being cut coming off of it? Strava shows it as being Goldfinch Trail.
    On the conditions imrpoving with riding: IMHO, it's still going to take a lot of work to get that trail to even 50 percent of what it was in its prime. (Rode it last Friday).

    I know some folks here have written that place off for good, but for us local to that area, it was so nice to have a fun, legal trail system that didn't require lots of driving. I want to help –*even if the cows mess it all up again, it's worth the work to me even if we can eek a bit of decent riding out of Sugar City during the summer months.

  65. #265
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    Call me crazy but I sorta like it being slip 'n' slide on Sugar City. At least the rest of the trails are doing well though a bit too buffed.

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    Sounds like I need to head out there to check it out again! Maybe later this week...

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    OT for this thread but has to do with Crockett. Any suggestions for a sandwich shop in Crockett I can get lunch at after a ride?

  68. #268
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    There was a 250 acre grass fire on 80 on Saturday right up to the refinery tanks on the south/east side of the highway. I'm assuming it didn't reach Crockett, but the air might still be a bit smokey.

  69. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Mackenzie View Post
    OT for this thread but has to do with Crockett. Any suggestions for a sandwich shop in Crockett I can get lunch at after a ride?
    Valona Market. best in town.

  70. #270
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    I rode here again today. Sugar City has been swept clear of all the slippery grass/weed clippings. Was pretty fun today. Soaring Eagle is getting shat on by the cows again. I had a few cowpie induced drifts in the corners. IMO the trails are in pretty fun condition. Go ride.

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    I rode there Thursday. Yes lots of cows up and around Soaring eagle, but the trail is in much better shape now. Sugar city needs some work where there were small slides. The bottom of tree frog is in pretty bad shape, really needs some help. Otherwise ok, not like it was, but ok. It is still a fun ride, it is just a shame that ebrpd lets the park go to sh*t like it is now...
    Last edited by cohenfive; 07-24-2017 at 08:40 AM.

  72. #272
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    Rode here today. A little bit of cow shit on Sugar City and Tree Frog. Not a lot but I just find it annoying.

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    Has anyone been recently? Is it still overgrown in Tree Frog? How's Sugar Hill? Is the trail still covered with clippings and loose? Thinking of riding there tomorrow. TIA.

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  74. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryanus View Post
    Has anyone been recently? Is it still overgrown in Tree Frog? How's Sugar Hill? Is the trail still covered with clippings and loose? Thinking of riding there tomorrow. TIA.

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    I think I rode there last week or the week before. Conditions good IMO except a part of the trail is a mud stream on Sugar City and Tree Frog had a branch hanging down like right in the middle of the trail as you go round a corner. Obviously there's the typical tech features consisting of cow shit. Should still be fun unless anything drastic changed since I was there.

  75. #275
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    It's that rarified time of year, absent of cattle, riders have smoothed the cattle tracks and occasional light precipitation makes confusions fun. Get it now until the first big rain of the year. Then it will be terrible until next September.

    Same goes for the "new" trails in Marin County Open Space RTMP region 4. The trails will be in terrible condition 8-10 months of the year. Yet advocates are calling it a win. While it is mathematically a win it's all but useless to the cycling community and takes the place of useful wins.


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  76. #276
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    Thanks guys. If I hit it tomorrow I'll be back with a report.

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  77. #277
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    I just hit it a week ago was not pretty cows everywhere almost ran into one

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  78. #278
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    It looks like there was trailwork done on a few spots. The big hanging branch on Tree Frog is now gone. It's pretty leafy on that trail in a few spots so just be careful how you brake in some places. I had fun today. Looks like more people have been riding lately because I've been seeing more tire tread marks in the dirt. It's felt like I was the only person riding this past summer because most of the trails looked like bike tires haven't been touching any of them.

  79. #279
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    I rode Crockett yesterday. Trails are in MUCH better condition than earlier in the year. Soaring Eagle is in great condition and essentially back to where it was in 2015. Sugar City although much better than earlier this summer is still trashed in a few spots. Same goes with tree frog. Lots of cows and fecal matter. Also interesting to note that many cows are freely roaming in the 'wildlife preservation zone' at the bottom of Tree Frog. I suppose the cows are there to help with the preservation.

  80. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by meter-man View Post
    First time MTBR poster - psyched to join.

    Anyway, I rode Crockett Sunday early AM (March 20), and was appalled at the bovine devastation. That was only my second ride there, but the difference was shocking. I have been in communication with BTCEB, and they have in turn been in communication with EBRPD. Long story short: EBRPD may change up its trail maintenance calendar to address this section at the May 21 trail work day (Trail Work Day at Crockett Hills - Bicycle Trails Council of the East Bay (Berkeley, CA) - Meetup). This year's trail work will fix the short term problem, but there needs to be a long term fix/agreement with the ranchers to not graze that portion of the property during wet conditions.

    Anyway, the area affected is (sorry, I'm don't know the proper names) from the tunnel to the helipad - ~2 miles. Here is a map and some pics.

    Attachment 1058876
    Attachment 1058878Attachment 1058879Attachment 1058880Attachment 1058881Attachment 1058882Attachment 1058883Attachment 1058884Attachment 1058885Attachment 1058886Attachment 1058887Attachment 1058888Attachment 1058889
    If you put lipstick on a bovine, does it still destroy our trails like this?
    Lead by my Lefty............... right down the trail, no brakes.

  81. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by testa di cazzo View Post
    I suppose the cows are there to help with the preservation.
    That is the goal for most good land managers...

    Some insight into what we are doing in soil science and ranching.


    The Benefits of Livestock Grazing California's Annual Grasslands
    http://ucanr.edu/sites/BayAreaRangel...les/253136.pdf

    https://holisticmanagement.org/featu...-places-earth/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ9zlAYmzII

  82. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by meter-man View Post

    Anyway, the area affected is (sorry, I'm don't know the proper names) from the tunnel to the helipad - ~2 miles. Here is a map and some pics.

    Attachment 1058876
    Attachment 1058878Attachment 1058879Attachment 1058880Attachment 1058881Attachment 1058882Attachment 1058883Attachment 1058884Attachment 1058885Attachment 1058886Attachment 1058887
    Yes! Livestock benefits like these. I love it!

  83. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by testa di cazzo View Post
    Yes! Livestock benefits like these. I love it!
    MTB riders are low priority.

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    Rode my 'normal' 15+ mile loop yesterday afternoon. No changes really...the ride up to the culvert is fine, soaring eagle is good, sugar city is fun but trashed in spots, the bottom of sugar city doesn't exist so a ridearound has formed in the flats to get around the mud. Beginning of tree frog really doesn't exist any more either, you are mostly riding in some old dry ruts. Tree frog proper is trashed in spots with dry ruts but rideable, and in other spots it is in pretty good shape to the top. Some very soft spots from leaves and debris coming across the trail. I think a lot of this is coming from wild turkeys searching those hills for food, and they displace a lot of loose stuff that just falls onto the trail. It would be easy to clean this off. I do the big fireroad climb back up to the tables to get back to soaring eagle, and it is in better shape than it was after they graded it.

    Still the best legal singletrack in the area, but it could easily be so much better if ebrp would just let us fix it up again...

  85. #285
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    I can't believe people still try to ride there. I've completely given up on mountain biking in the bay area and leave town every weekend to ride now. Outside of Chaparral in Joaquin Miller (A very short 60-70 second long run), is there anywhere to ride in this place that isn't basic terrain or filled with sweat pants walkers who think they are hikers putting logs in the trail and jumping on their cell phones to call the LEOs when they see us having fun? I'd like to drive less to get my riding in...

  86. #286
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    Really, you won't ride CH? At least at CH you don't have crowds...yesterday was an amazing day and I saw about 5 mtn bikers and a couple of hikers. I saw more raptors than people there. The trails are still pretty good imo, just not what they were, and all are rideable. My beef continues to be that ebrp won't let us come back in and fix the trails...but then again, the cows will eventually mess them up again if we did. The place just needs constant attention, but is still a very fun ride imo.

  87. #287
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    it all sucks - stay away.

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    I'm not into XC terrain at all, although sugar city DH is good fun on the rigid bike, no doubt, but I just hardly ride the rigid bike. I went to Squamish and Whistler this summer, so everything in the bay area just seems flat and featureless to me currently...

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    You should probably move somewhere better then.

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    BTCEB is close to having an agreement with CH Rangers to have a tool box and tools permanently installed out there for us to use. Still some labor union push-back.

    We are just finishing up the 50' bridge across the stream in Tilden/Wildcat on Harvey Canyon Trail. Next bridge in the works, if rumor mill is correct, is for the swampy bit at the bottom of Sugar City in CH.

    It has been requested that we do NOT take the evolving path around the swamp, but instead walk the boards that are laid down. Make a mess. Apparently this will help drive the project timeline forward as it shows how great the need for the bridge is. Seems bassackwards to me, but I seem to know very little.

    I'm still not convinced there is much a crew of volunteers can do against the cows, but I'd sure like to be put to shame on that concern. Until the cow gate at the top of Sugar is reconfigured to actually keep cows out (apparently they've learned to navigate that style of grate), and a method developed to keep them from entering at the bottom, I'm not that interested in spending any sweat equity on that trail.

    The unions have done a stellar job of grading the fire roads, that's for sure! Not sure why they needed it...but that's another of those 'I'm clearly not intelligent enough to grasp the logic' issues.

    BTCEB Gala ride was there on Saturday and while the trails are not up to their former glory, they have improved from earlier in the season.

    And that bloody fireroad up to the start of Tree Frog with the false summits is still a soul crusher.
    Cheers!
    Mike
    Oakland, CA
    2005 Jamis Exile
    2011 Trek/Gary Fisher HiFi

  91. #291
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    Thanks for the info. Tried to +rep you but "have to spread it around" first.

  92. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by emjayel View Post
    We are just finishing up the 50' bridge across the stream in Tilden/Wildcat on Harvey Canyon Trail.
    Exellent! When do expect Havey Canyon will reopen?

  93. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by emjayel View Post

    And that bloody fireroad up to the start of Tree Frog with the false summits is still a soul crusher.
    Soul crusher for sure. But, the ride down is worth it.
    Um, actually the whole place is crap, people should stay away.....lol.

  94. #294
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    Crocket is pretty rad now! I know, I know, earlier in this thread I said I cant go there anymore, but my friend Andrew went there a few days ago and said its pretty solid now. So this morning I took my new Canfield Brothers Riot to Crocket Hills. Its all really good right now. Go get some! Sugar City is different now that the little 1 footer doubles are worn down (I liked them before, when bigger, but trail is faster now) They were installed to slow us down on DH so horses and hikers could deal with us. Anyway, some jumps are worn right through the middle, funny, but some that were at curve entries are gone, and thats a good thing. There is alot of pea gravel around, but its pretty darn good. Tree Frog is Rad as usual. The last whoops secton before final switchback, is post holed from cows for 100 yards, but even that is not too bad. The last high speed run to barn is a little vibraty, but super sonic if you have any legs left! Its real fast, and a ribbon of dust free adrenaline. The most interesting thing I noticed is that Soaring eagle has been scalped, about 6 inches of soil scraped off the top and if the wind is at your back, its super smooth, and fast as (F word). I wonder if the 6" cut edge is going to allow water to drain out of the topsoil from 1/4 mile above? And ruin new surface? Hmmmm, we will see if it ever rains. Good job to those that work on that trail system. Good job indeed. You are in a tough spot with cows. Finally, yes, those fire roads are really painfull to climb as the acsents pile up.

  95. #295
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    Crockett is sort of like a tiny bike park. Climb the fire road, ride the trail, repeat.

    Just think of the fire road as your lift, but there's a trainer in it that you pedal while it goes up.

  96. #296
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    Thanks, Hoolie! Based on your ride report I hit on Sunday and it was super fun! All the leaves covering Tree Frog the last time I was there were gone; almost like someone used a leaf blower to clear the singletrack!

    It was also much more tiring than I remember! lol. Hope the rains this week don't mess it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoolie View Post
    Crocket is pretty rad now!
    ShockWiz Rentals available at FeelTheBerm.com! Into Vintage? Check out my Rock Shox Judy XC/SL/FSX Decal Sets

  97. #297
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    Has anyone ridden CH since the latest rains? I'm wondering if it's still too wet for a mud weeny like me, or have the trails dried out in the past few days..

  98. #298
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    I rode it on Saturday and it was still a bit muckier then I'd like so I skipped Tree frog. The path up was okay and it should be better today.

    The field at the end of Sugar City is a swamp and likely won't dry out until summer.

    In general Crockett dries slowly I usually go 20 minutes further east to Rockville if its not had a week or so to dry out.

  99. #299
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    Thanks. I think I'll give it another week to dry out. Unfortunately I think it is going to be pretty warm and dry for at least that long.

  100. #300
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    Clicked on this expecting a video of a cow shredding crockett hills.
    Disappointed.

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