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  1. #101
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    I think I just joined BTCEB - via memberplanet...gave them $30, but the process was weird. Got directed here: bicycletrailscouncil but I thought the main page was here: bicycletrailscouncil. Only got email confirmations that were memberplanet branded. Did I just get ripped off? Sorry for the off-topic post, but I want to help and if I found that process potentially shady other people are probably having a similar experience. Where is the resource on trail maintenance days?

  2. #102
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    This is the response that the BTC received fromn the parks : Iím not confident that Soaring Eagle will be repaired by May 14th. Could you take the fire road to connect the lower section to the new trail system? Park staff said that the section does look a little bit better, and that often the pocks work themselves out as things dry up. I have not had the opportunity to get out that direction, but plan to within the next 2 weeks to see if there is progress. Our crew who operates the Sweco is pressed with several emergency water line and road repairs (there have been multiple major slides and breaks with the rains this past winterÖnot that Iím complaining!) and cannot get to the trails at this time. We are trying to work with Park staff and Operations to develop a plan that is cost effective. Let me know if you have any questions or concerns regarding a reroute onto the road.

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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlizard43 View Post
    I think I just joined BTCEB - via memberplanet...gave them $30, but the process was weird. Got directed here: bicycletrailscouncil but I thought the main page was here: bicycletrailscouncil. Only got email confirmations that were memberplanet branded. Did I just get ripped off? Sorry for the off-topic post, but I want to help and if I found that process potentially shady other people are probably having a similar experience. Where is the resource on trail maintenance days?
    Likely no. They updated the system. I had to relogin even though I joined a little while back. Not like I cared. It took about 3 seconds or so. Just about the length of my attention span...

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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlizard43 View Post
    As a consumer I have the opportunity to voice my opinion through highlighting a PR concern for a private business that negatively impacts my life. It's not my role, or certainly my expertise, to find solutions but to simply put pressure on the private business to engage in good faith with the entities that have the expertise to find solutions (EBRPD). I am completely ignorant of grazing practices and the economic realities of running cattle, but that should not mean that my interests, and the interests of the local taxpaying community should be ignored under the pretense of being superseded by a contract. If EBRPD has their hands tied due to bureaucratic arrangements and has persistently failed in making effective change, voicing concerns through other channels seems like it could only help. Again, I am ignorant of the arrangements, but this seems like a systemic problem that is given a band-aid fix approach through free labor trail maintenance. Perhaps the cattle companies can sponsor the trail maintenance days, offer staff and tools, etc. These are the ideas I come up with as a reaction to trying to ride my local trails and running into bovine damage and reading up on the discussion, but more than anything I am ignorant of how the arrangements between the ranchers and EBRPD are negotiated and if EBRPD has any leeway at all within the contracts they have. I also understand the notion that making it more difficult for the ranchers may have a negative impact on acquiring new space, but I can't work from a no-we-can't stance.
    Hmmm

    It's a bidding process to obtain a grazing contract and it is market driven. One stipulation employed by most land owners is that ranching operators are responsible for fence maintenance and repairs. Maybe we should start including trail maintenance as well? Because trails have specific designs for features the rancher may not be able to do it him or herself but the fees could be increased such that it pays a trail contractor for annual cleanup. It's not economically feasible for a lot of rancher but maybe it is for some. It's worth throwing out the idea.

    Thanks for the thoughts!

  5. #105
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    In regard to the "could you take the fire road" instead comment embedded above. The group I was with took that on our return leg out and it was just as bad.

  6. #106
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    I know I've seen another thread on Crockett, but just want to bump this one. I "rode" it on Friday on my way back from Sac. I probably won't stop there again.

    Soaring Eagle's pock marks have hardened and smoothed somewhat since March (when I posted those pics on Page 1), but they still have transformed a formerly smooth and flowy ridgetop trail into a bone-rattling ride. Some folks in this thread said the bovine devastation would smooth out from the riding all summer long. Nope. The pocks aren't 8 inches deep anymore, but the trail is nowhere near "smooth."

    Worse yet, the cows have had their way with the Sugar City flow trail. It's a pocked, bone-rattling mess that's a mere shadow of its former glory.

    The cows were jammed up all the way over to Tree Frog (name of the southern loop), but I had to jam before I could do that outer loop.

    If I was the land manager who paid for these trail improvements and constructed the flow trail, I would be livid. Or better yet, I'd like to have some recompense for the destruction. I don't know what the grazer's conditions of use of the land are, but I highly doubt that the lease allows the grazer to cause property damage -- which plainly would extend to the damage caused to these trails -- without any consequence. Further, the community of Crockett stands to lose from the mountain bikers that won't be coming back and spending money in town. Too bad.

  7. #107
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    Amazing how quickly this went from the 'jewel in the crown' of EBRPD parks for mtn bikers to just another cattle grazing area...I haven't ridden there in a while, but if they have destroyed some of the other singletrack, that is a really bad outcome.

  8. #108
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    I also rode there very recently and had to avoid cows on sugar city dh, which is a ruined mess not worth riding. I bumped into a man in a truck who was working for the cattle ranchers and had a polite conversation with him. He said they are trying to work it out but I took this as pure placation due to the state of the trail, the multiple cows on Sugar city and the duration of time with no change in conditions. It was the closest OK trail by my house and it is 100% dead and buried now. RIP, I won't go back. I am a member of BTCED and will gladly do trail work if there is a contractual agreement that would maintain that the trails would not be destroyed by cattle without time-based repercussions. I'd love to be in the loop on such a development.

  9. #109
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    Amazing the land manager is so lame about letting people work on the trails. This could all be sorted with a little rain and a plate compactor. Change is good for trails. Add new features. Fix stuff that wasn't dialed the first time around. But only if people that care are allowed to volunteer.


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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    Amazing the land manager is so lame about letting people work on the trails. This could all be sorted with a little rain and a plate compactor. Change is good for trails. Add new features. Fix stuff that wasn't dialed the first time around. But only if people that care are allowed to volunteer.


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    How would you keep volunteers interested when their work would demonstrably just get destroyed?

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlizard43 View Post
    How would you keep volunteers interested when their work would demonstrably just get destroyed?
    Good question. These will also be good questions for Marin County Parks for Region 4 of the RTMP process.

    One would hope that East Bay Parks could pay for a bit of fencing to keep the cows of the trails?


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  12. #112
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    One has to wonder at the wisdom of a parks department that lets cattle run roughshod over hill and dale and won't allow cyclists on narrow trails.

    What exactly is their motivation? Makes no sense.
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  13. #113
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    The problem from what I've been told is that Crockett like Briones was sold by the ranch families that owned them for years with provisions that the land had to be leased back for grazing for so many years. Ive heard a number of 50 and also 100 yrs, not sure if it is correct or not. The rancher at Briones told me he moves his cattle multiple times a month to limit over grazing in any one area, which makes sense but unfortunately during wet times the cattle destroy the trails. It is not just an issue for us as the main trails get so thrashed even hikers can't use them..
    The type of soil in both parks make the damage so much harder to fix when the rains end, the clay soil dries into cement!

    Funny the only trails that don't get destroyed by the cattle, at least in Briones seem to be the illegal ones.

  14. #114
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    "Worse yet, the cows have had their way with the Sugar City flow trail. It's a pocked, bone-rattling mess that's a mere shadow of its former glory."

    It's so true. I ride in Crockett a lot (more of a local carido ride than destination given where I live), and have witnessed firsthand how that park went from something special to a cow-trampled disappointment. Even last fall/winter, at least, the cows were kept off Sugar City. Fast forward to last weekend and on my favorite section of that trail, I had to dodge cow-dung left and right (not to mention the other issues). It's why I tell my friends not to make the drive.

    The sad thing is, awhile back, I would have said it was the perfect place to introduce somebody to MTB. A short-ish ride with a fun, all-skills friendly downhill, great views and a cool town to grab in beer or a bite to eat in afterward. Now, I wouldn't risk brining somebody new there.

  15. #115
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    Is there a way to make the town aware of the destruction, and the likely negative economic impact this will have?

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by cohenfive View Post
    Is there a way to make the town aware of the destruction, and the likely negative economic impact this will have?
    I'm not a local, but maybe a letter sent to both the Crockett Board (Crockett Community Services District, CA - Board of Directors) and the Crockett Chamber of Commerce (Crockett Chamber of Commerce - Home), with CC to EBRPD.

  17. #117
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    Damn I just rode Crockett on my hardtail two weeks ago and had a lot of fun on the previously mentioned trails. It was a day after some trailwork was done though. Trails were in great condition that day. Does anyone have pics of damage? Would be good to see if it's actual damage in that short time or if people just want it to be a nice smooth family grade multi use path.

  18. #118
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    I also rode Crockett a couple weeks ago and thought it was in pretty good shape. Tree Frog dirt was in perfect condition, but too many wet oak leaves on the ground, looked like it hadn't been ridden that much? Made it a little sketchy. Sugar city was pretty beat up I suppose, although not that bad considering how some of these cattle trails can get.

    EBRPD really doesn't seem to give a sh*t what cyclists think or want, and I guess the hikers don't complain enough about how cattle impact trail conditions (and equestrians are part of the problem), so I'm pretty not much will change in these parts.
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  19. #119
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    My biggest complaint with Sugar Shitty is that one mud slop near the end. It's been there since summer. Kind of ruins the flow and people have just been cutting across the field instead of following the trail. Otherwise that's such a perfect trail for a hardtail. I'd say the whole park is prime hardtail riding. It's no Santa Cruz but find me something better nearby Crockett? Actually don't find me something better because I already know where it is.

  20. #120
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    I almost went there today, so glad I did a road ride. That's saying something (road ride was probably less fun than those hoof marks). I feel really bad for all of the volunteers that made those trails. They are pretty good when smooth, especially Soaring Eagle. Soaring Eagle is just kind of a nice smooth "from here to there" trail that is fun if the wind is at your back. I caught it a few months ago after being trampled by cows, and it was washboard hell. I too will pass by Crocket, and head to Skyline Napa and Rockville. RIP

  21. #121
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    Unfortunately its standard for EBRPD parks, I have seen this for many years on various trails. Everything seems to be an after thought. Eventually the trails will get better and hopefully they will allow a real crew in there to shore things up.

    Good thing suspension is so great these days. Crockett is like some weird land managers experiment it seems...

  22. #122
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    I wonder if it would make sense to spend some time (I'd volunteer) working on Tree Frog. That trail could be really nice with a bit more maintenance and the cows don't hit it so hard. Have seen a few turkeys on there but they don't seem to leave the same prints....

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    One has to wonder at the wisdom of a parks department that lets cattle run roughshod over hill and dale and won't allow cyclists on narrow trails.

    What exactly is their motivation? Makes no sense.

    Cows are not mechanized! They belong here! La la la! I can't hear you!

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Cows are not mechanized! They belong here! La la la! I can't hear you!
    We cannot be sold to a slaughterhouse for their profit and are therefore irrelevant. Because of this attitude by 'land managers', and my advancing age, I will ride and build illegal trails out of public view until the Coppers take me down.

  25. #125
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    Damn, I also rode Crock about 2 weeks ago, and thought Sugar and Tree Frog were great. The last part of Tree Frog had some erosion and needed some work, though. It did look like cows had a dance dance revolution party on Soaring Eagle.

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by DH40 View Post
    ...I will ride and build illegal trails out of public view until the Coppers take me down in a hail of gunfire (that's the word on the street).
    Fixed. And rep given!

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  27. #127
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    I'm thinking of going this Sunday (Dec 4th). I was there about a month ago and it was pretty good IMO. But it's rained heavily in the past few weeks and I know first hand what it was like earlier this year after the cows trampled it. Has anyone been there this past week or maybe going tomorrow? Please chime in!

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  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryanus View Post
    I'm thinking of going this Sunday (Dec 4th). I was there about a month ago and it was pretty good IMO. But it's rained heavily in the past few weeks and I know first hand what it was like earlier this year after the cows trampled it. Has anyone been there this past week or maybe going tomorrow? Please chime in!

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  29. #129
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    I'd love to hear how CH is holding up as well. I'd like to find some good east bay trail conditions if they exist anywhere, am staying off Briones for a while (my local park). CH isn't too far from me if it's not too muddy.

  30. #130
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    OK I hit Crockett this afternoon and it was great. The trails were surprisingly dry. There were some pockets of mud, but only a couple.

    The first section of trail from the lot was wet/damp, but not muddy. Nothing sticking to my tires and once I was in the covered sections up to the tunnel it was perfect.

    I took the fire road to the top of Sugar City and that was surprisingly dry, with only minor cow tracks which were already pretty knocked down.

    Sugar City was excellent, but there was one puddle at the very beginning which had two cows tending to right in the middle of the trail; I went around them and didn't encounter any more the rest of the way.

    Tree Frog was equally excellent with only one section that I would say was a little muddy at the bottom towards the end as you are coming out to the stable. That section usually holds onto wetness so it wasn't any worse than it usually is.

    After Tree Frog, I took the fire road back up and I was amazed that the section back to the top of Sugar City was totally rideable. Last Spring this section was a muddy, hoof-y mess, but today it was smooth and barely damp.

    Finally, I took Soaring Eagle back down to the tunnel and again, just minor cow tracks, and IMO, totally normal in terms of roughness. I would say the same as it was the last time I was there at the beginning of Nov.

    Considering the amount of rain we had the past couple weeks I am really surprised it dried out so much.

    Crockett is 100% rideable and 100% fun! Go for it!
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  31. #131
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    Bryanus, thanks for the update. Now I think I want to reverse my opinion of RIP, a few posts above, and ride it again. Standard over reaction from me. Haha. I do wish the cattle situation would improve long term. The trails out there are such a GREAT start. It seems with that much land, tens of miles could be added. Shame. I will try to hit it up before chance of rain on Thur.

  32. #132
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    The riders who complain about Crockett conditions probably want trails to look more like what happened to the trail in this thread: Saratoga Gap singletrack paved and sanitized.

  33. #133
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    No, I'd say we would like a bit more thought taken before letting cows destroy newly built singletrack...and also let us come in and fix things without a massive amount of administrative hassles. This wasn't trail sanitization done on purpose by the land manager, this was trail destruction done by cows who could have been better managed on the property....imo.

    I am hoping to get back out on CH this week, glad to hear it isn't too muddy. I still like it even after cow damage....

  34. #134
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    I posted a few [warning: boring!] videos of my ride yesterday. Keep the volume off, it's a windstorm:

    Sugar City: https://youtu.be/zaE9VHrxTnc
    Tree Frog: https://youtu.be/F2tOCPSaX1M
    Soaring Eagle: https://youtu.be/sUhmCfPm9DM
    Back to Lot: https://youtu.be/ajYSqpQ98Es
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  35. #135
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    Thanks, the videos tell the tale! I'll be riding there maybe this afternoon if it warms back up. I think what you are calling sky trail is soaring eagle...which is still pretty bumpy from the cows, but at least is rideable.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by cohenfive View Post
    I think what you are calling sky trail is soaring eagle...which is still pretty bumpy from the cows, but at least is rideable.
    Ahh, yes, that's Soaring Eagle. Sky Trail was in my head for some reason. Corrected! It's bumpy, but pretty "normal" for that trail from my experience. Nothing compared to how trashed it was from the cows last Spring, which took a pretty long time to get knocked down and rideable again.
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  37. #137
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    Thanks for posting - I could get my friend in Richmond out there and back into the game, hopefully. What are the preferred routes to the top?



    Quote Originally Posted by bryanus View Post
    I posted a few [warning: boring!] videos of my ride yesterday. Keep the volume off, it's a windstorm:




    Sugar City: https://youtu.be/zaE9VHrxTnc
    Tree Frog: https://youtu.be/F2tOCPSaX1M
    Soaring Eagle: https://youtu.be/sUhmCfPm9DM
    Back to Lot: https://youtu.be/ajYSqpQ98Es

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by DH40 View Post
    Thanks for posting - I could get my friend in Richmond out there and back into the game, hopefully. What are the preferred routes to the top?
    From the parking lot gate, take the left-hand trail. You will come to a fairly steep climb. Climb it and then you will see a trail off to the right. Take that all the way to the top. If you watch my "Back to Lot" video, that trail is the same one, but I am coming down it.

    When you reach the top after the last bit of climb, take a right and continue a short climb to the tunnel. Cross through the tunnel. Once you exit the tunnel you can either take the fire road to the left or "Soaring Eagle" to the right. I tend to take the fire road to save some energy for Soaring Eagle on the way back.

    Either one will get you to the top of Sugar City and the livestock feeding/watering platform. The entrance to Sugar City will be visible as a fenced area/gate. They added a neat ramp to enter the trail without having to get off your bike; you can just roll into it.

    Have fun!
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  39. #139
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    Thanks! I've been riding with the cows in Wildcat Cyn lately nursing a broken arm, and this looks like the kind of mellow EB spot I need for a few more weeks.

  40. #140
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    If you want to do all the good trails at CH, when you get to the bottom of Sugar City, take the fire road to the left through the valley, and look for a beat up old cattle area on the left..that singletrack on the left is called Tree Frog. It winds its way for a couple of miles up to another peak, and is a blast to descend.

    Speaking of which, I decided to ride CH this afternoon. The above descriptions of trail conditions are all accurate. Trails are in very good shape from a mud standpoint. Cows have been on everything except for that first climb to the tunnel. Sugar city isn't as smooth as it was, but it is still good. One bad spot right near the top, and the bottom section that holds water has been completely destroyed by cows. You have to walk or ride around it now, but no big deal. Tree frog has also seen cows, but while bumpier than it used to be, it isn't bad. Lots of leaves in spots in the woods however, just be careful. As for soaring eagle, it isn't as smooth as it used to be, but it is a lot better than it was this summer.

    So all in all (at least until it rains again Wednesday), CH is pretty decent right now...bumpier yes but still a ton of fun..at least until the cows do their thing again.

  41. #141
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    Has anyone ridden CH after all the rains we had? Itching pretty bad for a ride.

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  42. #142
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    [QUOTE=bryanus;12997140]Has anyone ridden CH after all the rains we had? Itching pretty bad for a ride]

    Yeah, I almost went there today, But not without a report, anyone? I got stuck doing a road ride. They closed road for 20 min to bulldoze some mud, and I got stuck in a group of 20 roadies when they let us through. I definitely like Mt Bike people better.

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryanus View Post
    Has anyone ridden CH after all the rains we had? Itching pretty bad for a ride.

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    I'm going to check it out on Tuesday...got rain coming after that though.

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    I fully admit to being a mud weeny, but if you are having problems doing road rides, clearly the answer is to stay off the trails for an extended period. I ride CH a lot, and can imagine all the places that hold water there...so I'm not doing any dirt riding in the east bay for quite a while, the trails will be damaged by those who do imo.

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by cohenfive View Post
    I fully admit to being a mud weeny, but if you are having problems doing road rides, clearly the answer is to stay off the trails for an extended period. I ride CH a lot, and can imagine all the places that hold water there...so I'm not doing any dirt riding in the east bay for quite a while, the trails will be damaged by those who do imo.
    Well then...it looks like I won't check out Crockett Hills on Tuesday. Thanks for the heads up

  46. #146
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    I bet it's still slop. The cow holes hold water and the clay takes a while to dry out. Haven't been up there since my last post, so YMMV.
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  47. #147
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    We should lurk around on hiker or equestrian forums to see if they discuss Crocket Hills conditions. It's just a little far from my house to drive there, ride a little bit, only to be skunked by too much mud (trail damaging mud, I'm cool with mud on me). I really hope that during the end of winter, we ride that place at the right time to smooth out the hoof marks. Damn cows can't read "no hoof prints" sign

  48. #148
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    Will there be trail work anytime soon? I'd like to help out if anyone does.

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    Go o Meetup.com ,look for the Bicycle trails council of the east bay . When we do a trail work day ,it will be posted there. I don't know of anything coming soon.

  50. #150
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    So, I stopped at Crockett Hills today...hiking out of the parking lot was a chore; that place is slippery. I can't imagine it will be rideable before June

  51. #151
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    Every hoof print is a mini waterfall I guess. Wasted day.

    1,000,000 little waterfalls destroying the trail 5 inches at a time.Attachment 1121094

  52. #152
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    What you dont see, is the entire grassy area is also post holed. Those cows are very destructive up there. What a shame. Trails on north side of Cummings Skyway are pretty nice, considering all the rain. Seems like a small amount of trail meassaging would get the water off of Soaring Eagle, but I will never volunteer up there until they fence off that trail from cows. Why do ranchers get to have that land? And I live in a tiny apt. Damn.

  53. #153
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    The bikes aren't helping either. That place needs a lot of time to dry out, not just a couple of days...imo.

  54. #154
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    I was actually thinking about that alot today, and i think the bikes do help flatten the hoof holes, especially the 2 inch bumps. I was thinking how great it would work to have 100 people on bikes steam roll those singletrack trails. Of course its a bad idea where i took my photo, thats why I commented "...small amount of trail messaging would get water off of Soaring Eagle." Bikes are the least of the problem. I hope somebody comments on Sugar City. Some guys were riding there, but I stayed out of the mud after the picnic table.

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    Wasn't trying to call you out, and it's an individual decision of course. For me, I'm a mud weeny and will stay off dirt trails completely for a while now...just too wet imo. As far as CH goes, I hear what you are saying..it's like we need a one foot wide steam roller to go through some of the CH trails while soft (maybe not while they are flowing) and flatten out some of the cow damage. I've been on my mtn bike once in 2017..

  56. #156
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    Went out yesterday because my buddy is a new rider, lives in Martinez, and wanted to check it out. Man... what a wreck. Poison oak infestations abound, especially on Tree Frog, where there's also a couple large downed trees.

    Sugar city is overgrown, cow chopped, and has a couple spots with "eat your front tire mud".

    The lower Edwards loop trail is the best trail there right now. If I were to return, I'd turn around at the tunnel and just do laps. Everything else is crap, and will remain that way, unless something changes with their grazing management.
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  57. #157
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    Anyone ride Crockett Hills recently? Is it still a mess?
    Thanks!

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    Gonna guess everything about my post above is just worse, and add ticks.
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  59. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by testa di cazzo View Post
    Anyone ride Crockett Hills recently? Is it still a mess?
    Thanks!
    I went for a quick hike around there with my girlfriend on Saturday. I was going to show her at least the beginning of Sugar City to comment on how it was once a gem of a trail for us in the deep East Bay, but it was so overgrown you couldn't even see where the trail began after the cow bridge/entrance.

    There was evidence of work on Soaring Eagle as the grass had been trimmed back and any of the cow tramplings/ruts had been "rototilled" out (hopefully that's a work in progress, because it was hard to find traction in spots with running shoes, let alone an MTB tire).

    Man, what a difference from two years ago:

    New Mountain Bike Friendly Multi-Use Trails at Crockett Hills Regional Park

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    Everyone needs to chill the f -out.
    1) The land is only undeveloped because of the terms of the owners who deeded it to EBRPD. It is historically ranch land and you get to ride it by their generosity.The rancher who runs all the cattle is a super cool guy, btw.
    2) The cows do screw it up and good when we have heavy rain. This year is the worst ...maybe ever. Deal with it . I do. You have to pick the right trails and stay out of the valleys. Cross drainage is an issue and makes some climbs a challenge.
    3) The cows damage it all up when wet and once dry the knock down the high spots making it better again. Patience.
    4) Ride a FS bike and leave it in descend, all the cow postholes just add a little challenge to maintaining speed.
    When you can do something about the dbag snowflakes with their purse sized dogs and the angry silvertails walking around like zombies let me know.

  61. #161
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    Crockett Hills - EXTREME bovine trail trashing!

    This will likely be the outcome for the region 4 RTMP trail additions in Marin. We will hear to no end about how great all the new trails are and x number of miles added. But after the first winter the reality of cattle and rain added to the equation will settle in.


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  62. #162
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    Is that generosity, or getting to ranch on land without paying taxes for it?

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    The generosity is by the original landowners and EBRPD. Long term lease by the rancher includes certain conditions and fees paid to the trust.
    Just be happy you get to ride on it at all. Stir enough shit and they can take it all away. It's not your land.
    Coexist with other users. You aren't entitled to perfect trails. Organize a work group and let's try and build more MTB trails . The ones you are on now are probably 90% cow constructed trails anyway , since they make ideal trails on hillsides due to their lazy nature.

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    Wow!!


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  65. #165
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    Chasejj, always defending the ranchers, telling us we have to deal with crap trails and that we're lucky we have anything at all to ride on, lol
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  66. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasejj View Post
    The generosity is by the original landowners and EBRPD. Long term lease by the rancher includes certain conditions and fees paid to the trust.
    Just be happy you get to ride on it at all. Stir enough shit and they can take it all away. It's not your land.
    Coexist with other users. You aren't entitled to perfect trails. Organize a work group and let's try and build more MTB trails . The ones you are on now are probably 90% cow constructed trails anyway , since they make ideal trails on hillsides due to their lazy nature.
    While I harbor no resentment against ranchers - I think this thread is clear. The MTB community has organized to build trails in Crocket - and the cows ruined them.

    This is like a sysyphusian struggle. We could go on forever rebuilding trails and having the cows destroy them.
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  67. #167
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    It's the same at Briones park. All the parks in the area have been hit hard. Add cows to wet trails and they just get destroyed. I understand that we share these areas and have no problems doing so. I wish that the cows would be keep off sensitive areas when the mud is 1 foot deep. FYI cows never smooth out trails, even dry ones get post holed.

  68. #168
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    It does remind one that mountain biking used to be about riding over whatever trail surface was there. I understand flow trails and buff singletrack...love that rollercoaster-flow feeling riding that kind of trail, but one of the earmarks of mountain biking that drew me to it back in it's infancy was that you could take a bike and ride...didn't matter if the surface was paved, dirt, sand, rock, etc or what condition it was in. Obstacles, even cow trampling of the expected trail surface, were just something to overcome and when you did it was with a feeling of accomplishment.

    I do draw the line at steaming piles of equestrian sh*t...as that doesn't belong anywhere but a corral or horse pasture (even so, still good for practicing last-second-panic-bunnyhopping!) but with the point of view I am seeing now I will no longer complain about the local horsey riders letting their mounts wreck the trail surface near where I live. I will just consider it a trail surface challenge and figure out how to ride over it. Like chasejj states in his posting: deal with it.
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  69. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasejj View Post
    The generosity is by the original landowners and EBRPD. Long term lease by the rancher includes certain conditions and fees paid to the trust.
    Just be happy you get to ride on it at all. Stir enough shit and they can take it all away. It's not your land.
    Coexist with other users. You aren't entitled to perfect trails. Organize a work group and let's try and build more MTB trails . The ones you are on now are probably 90% cow constructed trails anyway , since they make ideal trails on hillsides due to their lazy nature.
    If they are not paying taxes on it, it is our land. Original owners had been compensated.

  70. #170
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    I "deal with it" by riding elsewhere. And that's really too bad for Crockett Hills, City Of Crockett and any other entity that benefited from the influx of Mt. Bikers

  71. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bokchoicowboy View Post
    It does remind one that mountain biking used to be about riding over whatever trail surface was there. I understand flow trails and buff singletrack...love that rollercoaster-flow feeling riding that kind of trail, but one of the earmarks of mountain biking that drew me to it back in it's infancy was that you could take a bike and ride...didn't matter if the surface was paved, dirt, sand, rock, etc or what condition it was in. Obstacles, even cow trampling of the expected trail surface, were just something to overcome and when you did it was with a feeling of accomplishment.

    I do draw the line at steaming piles of equestrian sh*t...as that doesn't belong anywhere but a corral or horse pasture (even so, still good for practicing last-second-panic-bunnyhopping!) but with the point of view I am seeing now I will no longer complain about the local horsey riders letting their mounts wreck the trail surface near where I live. I will just consider it a trail surface challenge and figure out how to ride over it. Like chasejj states in his posting: deal with it.
    I don't care about a few bumps. What is annoying is hearing the same people who defend ranching complain about "erosion" from mountain bikes.

    After many orienteering races in local parks I got to see this away from bike trails - some areas are pulverized.

  72. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bokchoicowboy View Post
    It does remind one that mountain biking used to be about riding over whatever trail surface was there. I understand flow trails and buff singletrack...love that rollercoaster-flow feeling riding that kind of trail, but one of the earmarks of mountain biking that drew me to it back in it's infancy was that you could take a bike and ride...didn't matter if the surface was paved, dirt, sand, rock, etc or what condition it was in. Obstacles, even cow trampling of the expected trail surface, were just something to overcome and when you did it was with a feeling of accomplishment.

    I do draw the line at steaming piles of equestrian sh*t...as that doesn't belong anywhere but a corral or horse pasture (even so, still good for practicing last-second-panic-bunnyhopping!) but with the point of view I am seeing now I will no longer complain about the local horsey riders letting their mounts wreck the trail surface near where I live. I will just consider it a trail surface challenge and figure out how to ride over it. Like chasejj states in his posting: deal with it.
    Have you seen the pictures? I don't need buff single track and enjoy challenging terrain. This is constant unrelenting chatter. Going down will knock the fillings out of your teeth. Trying to ride up 20% grades that have been destroyed is almost impossible. A lot of time and effort was put into these trail. It's sad to see them destroyed.

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    Seems to me the real issue is that the land manager won't allow anyone to work on the trails after they have been trashed.

    Since the community is effectively neutered and doesn't have a similar trail crew to MBoSC or TAMBA, they can't offer to help.

    The same situation exists in Marin County.


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  74. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    If they are not paying taxes on it, it is our land. Original owners had been compensated.
    That's not how it works...

  75. #175
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    Meanwhile... have you guys seen the destruction the horse wagon wheels did on the Oat Hill Mine Trail in Napa??? You could lose fillings going down that... and most people I know have to walk up it. Stupid wagons...

  76. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCWages View Post
    That's not how it works...
    The way it works in the east bay is:
    - district buys ranches
    - ranchers secure leases
    - if ranchers don't get leases, others won't sell to park district
    - park district keeps issuing leases, despite the obvious damage, to make sure they can keep buying more ranch land
    - rinse repeat

    Unofficially, district is not a fan of cows on its land but puts up with it due to above.

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    1st thing , I guess I am not surprised that most sentiments seem to role quickly to the feeling that anyone is entitled to a specified trail condition.
    News flash . You aren't . We just went through the muddiest season maybe ever. Stop whining.
    #2- No cows and horses and you are back to driving to Marin to deal with those a-holes. No thanks.
    #3-Not sure of the tax situation and it does not ENTITLE you to anything regardless.
    #4- I spoke with some of the people working on maintenance when I was at Briones recently. They are well aware of the areas needing attention and are scheduling work, but it pretty much confined to maintaining vehicle access throughout the park. So if it is not a dbl track . I seriously doubt anyone will touch it.

  78. #178
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    Seems like BTCEB should be put in contact with the land manager to arrange a work day on the non-doubletrack. Something you can do, chasejj?

  79. #179
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    The point isn't entitlement! The point is that with some forethought a lot of the damage could have been avoided. We are taking about 1000's of man hours to fix. We are all trying to share these public lands. I don't ride like an ass hat skidding around every corner and yelling STRAVA! Cows, horses, bikes and even hikers should avoid the wet trails. I did my part, did you?

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    nobody is talking about entitlement.

    except maybe on the rancher's part.

    you see, when bikes and trail work are prohibited because they will cause 'environmental damage', but cattle is allowed because of money or history or something, we just call ********.

    either environmental damage is important, in which case you'd restrict cattle.

    or it's not, in which case you'd not restrict bikes.

    there of course may be seasonal concerns or other reasons for restrictions, but those still apply to both classes of users. and this has nothing to do with how nice or mean the rancher is.

  81. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKD View Post
    Seems like BTCEB should be put in contact with the land manager to arrange a work day on the non-doubletrack. Something you can do, chasejj?
    He's an expert, at everything except achieving something positive for the off road cycling community.


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  82. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    The point isn't entitlement! The point is that with some forethought a lot of the damage could have been avoided. We are taking about 1000's of man hours to fix. We are all trying to share these public lands. I don't ride like an ass hat skidding around every corner and yelling STRAVA! Cows, horses, bikes and even hikers should avoid the wet trails. I did my part, did you?
    I seriously doubt 90% of the trails have any MTB generated damage even in mud.The cows pretty much obliterate anything we can do. The singletrack I ride in Briones is unaffected by any users or cows. Most of it stays dry even after heavy rains as it is steep.
    I often wonder why I have never seen any effort to construct some new trails (official) on Briones. The terrain would definitely provide some fun vertical runs. I have never seen a club off road ride either. Need an organization of volunteers. I'm out of the loop on club stuff , not much of a club oriented person. I would participate if a work plan was put together. Could probably get some HS football players to donate time as well.

  83. #183
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    Hey Chase. There has been club rides in Briones. It has been a couple years and the last one I went to was a horse/bike ride. The idea was to interact with this user group. There is a dedicated group that works hard maintaining the trails in Briones. This is an illegal activity even if it benefits the park and all user groups. Most trails have been effected by the cows and time has been invested to fix it. I wish that legally constructed trails for mountain bikes was a possibility, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmtb View Post
    nobody is talking about entitlement.


    except maybe on the rancher's part.

    you see, when bikes and trail work are prohibited because they will cause 'environmental damage', but cattle is allowed because of money or history or something, we just call ********.

    either environmental damage is important, in which case you'd restrict cattle.

    or it's not, in which case you'd not restrict bikes.

    there of course may be seasonal concerns or other reasons for restrictions, but those still apply to both classes of users. and this has nothing to do with how nice or mean the rancher is.
    You clearly do not understand the business relationship that allows you to ride on these lands nor the ranching business.
    The beauty of this area is its lack of controls and management. The minute you demand more control and controls ugly cousin (LE) you creep into the Marin model of BS.
    Sounds like you'd like that. Be careful for what you wish for, you just may get it.
    You guys realize that once it dries out and gets the high edges knocked down , it's all good. I've been riding these trails for 25 years. It's just a seasonal thing.

  85. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCWages View Post
    That's not how it works...
    Property is public, what they have is a long term contract to use it. It is not unreasonable to expect them to try to play nice with others.

    Though obviously a bigger problem is the current public landowner not caring about our use case that much. Unrelated to any cows.

  86. #186
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    Is Hilride still involved in the project?

    I know it's been a wet winter, but it sounds like this place could use some sort of sustainability audit. Suggestions for improving the drainage would be good, since I don't think much can be done about the cows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hiphopopotamus View Post
    Is Hilride still involved in the project?

    I know it's been a wet winter, but it sounds like this place could use some sort of sustainability audit. Suggestions for improving the drainage would be good, since I don't think much can be done about the cows.
    Drainage=Money
    No money in the pot with all the BS that JB funds with my taxes and all the cheapskates parking offsite to avoid the $3 fee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chasejj View Post
    You clearly do not understand the business relationship that allows you to ride on these lands nor the ranching business.
    The beauty of this area is its lack of controls and management. The minute you demand more control and controls ugly cousin (LE) you creep into the Marin model of BS.
    Sounds like you'd like that.
    No, I want less controls, not more.
    Simple rule: if cattle are allowed to do something, so are humans.

  89. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasejj View Post
    Drainage=Money
    No money in the pot with all the BS that JB funds with my taxes and all the cheapskates parking offsite to avoid the $3 fee.
    With measure ww, there us plenty of money for improvements. User fees are a tiny fraction of park budget.

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  90. #190
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    [QUOTE=zorg;13162901]With measure ww, there us plenty of money for improvements. User fees are a tiny fraction of park budget.

    Sent from my LG

    Have you seen the culvert failures and washouts this season?. Not to mention the drainage ruts and rock needed to repair the fireroads? That is lots of money. Probably in the $500K range just in areas of Briones I've seen.
    Fireroad access takes precedence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Thanks for posting photos. Really brings home the issue here. Looks like the weather is about to turn sunny and really harden all those ruts. Bad news.
    You really need to understand this park. Everyone freaking out over a very transitory condition.The drying of the damage is then knocked down by the same cattle who created it. It makes boring buff singletrack into something way more fun. IMO.
    If you use the parks frequently here you would understand this. I am out there 2-4 times a week for 25 years. It is a process. Deal with it.
    I was in Briones last night and they have already bladed several access roads. Wash out areas will require much more work.
    Some valley areas are still a swamp. Most is dried out and the cows are already knocking down the nasty stuff.

  92. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasejj View Post
    You really need to understand this park. Everyone freaking out over a very transitory condition.The drying of the damage is then knocked down by the same cattle who created it. It makes boring buff singletrack into something way more fun. IMO.
    If you use the parks frequently here you would understand this. I am out there 2-4 times a week for 25 years. It is a process. Deal with it.
    I was in Briones last night and they have already bladed several access roads. Wash out areas will require much more work.
    Some valley areas are still a swamp. Most is dried out and the cows are already knocking down the nasty stuff.
    Man I had no idea there were such trail maintenance experts here. I guess next winter I'll just have the cows walk all over the flow trail at Tamaracho and call it done. Problem solved!


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  93. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasejj View Post
    You really need to understand this park. Everyone freaking out over a very transitory condition.The drying of the damage is then knocked down by the same cattle who created it. It makes boring buff singletrack into something way more fun. IMO.
    If you use the parks frequently here you would understand this. I am out there 2-4 times a week for 25 years. It is a process. Deal with it.
    I was in Briones last night and they have already bladed several access roads. Wash out areas will require much more work.
    Some valley areas are still a swamp. Most is dried out and the cows are already knocking down the nasty stuff.
    yes, cattle are great for trails. I say CalFire should start running cattle out at Demo and would offer big improvements to the trail system.

  94. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasejj View Post
    It is a process.

    As much as it sucks its pretty much true for EBMUD riding areas...The cows do eventually knock it down, sometimes better sometimes worse.

    We will even jump in on certain sections and fill in the really bad post holes when things start firming up, helps alot.

    Best way to keep wandering cows off the trail is to keep em steep.

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    I've been in Briones a lot lately, and some of the fire roads are in pretty bad shape...a couple look like scale models of the grand canyon from water erosion. The cattle damage seems about like normal, but as others have said it is worse because of the water damage as well. I wouldn't know about the singltrack since none of it is bike legal.

    As for CH, I think what most are complaining about is that the first year with the new trails, they were just amazing. Basically everything you could want out of the east bay. Now, and maybe it was wishful thinking that they would stay that way, it seems that they are never going back anywhere near where they were. We had real swoopy and fast singletrack, and now the best we can hope for is knocked down cattle posts. That's a bummer as far as I am concerned. That being said, I rode CH all last year (after it dried) and didn't mind the bumpiness too much. I haven't headed there yet this season given all the bad things I am hearing. Sounds like it just isn't ready yet, at least for me...and it needs a good weed whacking at some point. It does get badly overgrown, and this winter must be even worse in that regards. I'll ride the bumps when I can see the trail.

  96. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasejj View Post
    *snip*
    I pointed that out but the mods never followed through. Perhaps they could make a change now? The name calling should be a cause as well

  97. #197
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    Just an FYI EBRPD does not have a trail crew of any sort. They only have a road crew. All the funding goes to maintaining roads and that is that. As for the cattle; the original terms of the land acquisition that goes way back before the mountain bike was ever invented. It's a legally binding contract that has no wording for our user group whatsoever. You can fight, kick, and scream all you want that contract is only about 50 years into a 100 year contract. The only thing we can do is go back and fix the damage each year that the cattle cause.

    The MTB groups in the east bay need to hold more fundraisers and go buy a SWECO and not count on EB Parks to do it for them. Holding a once a year fundraiser sure as hell isn't going to cut it. The folks of in Downieville have figured it out and raffle off two high end bikes a year that are donated. The last one netted $75k for trail projects! Do you see that kind of fundraising going on the the bay area?! No! Sad because I see a lot of $10k bikes strapped to a lot of high end cars here. All the rad spots like Ashland, Downiville, Truckee, and other places like them the park service provides the land to build the trails, and the stewardships provide the funding to construct the trails and maintain them.

    BTCEB has their heart in the right place, but I feel that they need to grow into a larger group and need to catch up when it comes to fundraising and have a better presence in the internet. The group also has more than a few purest that certainly didn't make me and my family feel very welcome all because I got labeled as a downhiller. Even though 90% of the DH riding I do is in a bike park.

  98. #198
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    A trail crew should be the number one concern of every advocacy group in the area. This is the cornerstone of every successful trail advocacy group in North America. Instead we have a system of zero support and a few token days of trail work a year.


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  99. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by P51mech View Post
    Just an FYI EBRPD does not have a trail crew of any sort. They only have a road crew. All the funding goes to maintaining roads and that is that. As for the cattle; the original terms of the land acquisition that goes way back before the mountain bike was ever invented. It's a legally binding contract that has no wording for our user group whatsoever. You can fight, kick, and scream all you want that contract is only about 50 years into a 100 year contract. The only thing we can do is go back and fix the damage each year that the cattle cause.

    The MTB groups in the east bay need to hold more fundraisers and go buy a SWECO and not count on EB Parks to do it for them. Holding a once a year fundraiser sure as hell isn't going to cut it. The folks of in Downieville have figured it out and raffle off two high end bikes a year that are donated. The last one netted $75k for trail projects! Do you see that kind of fundraising going on the the bay area?! No! Sad because I see a lot of $10k bikes strapped to a lot of high end cars here.
    Road and trail crew is down 2 operators right now and there is some project backlog to go through.

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    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  100. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Road and trail crew is down 2 operators right now and there is some project backlog to go through.

    Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk
    You can't rely on the land managers to do it for you. A trail crew composed of cyclists is the only way to develop cycling friendly trails.


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