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  1. #101
    middle ring single track
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    Interesting...

    Quote Originally Posted by hanskellner View Post
    Photos from the trail yesterday. Order is heading uphill from power lines:
    ...set of photos.

    Perhaps they're not through working on this section yet (and photos can be deceptive) but this trail appears not up to State standards (not enough out-slope and back-slope still to steep) if indeed they're trying to maintain it as a Class I MUT.

    Highly unlikely but there's always a chance that this is a Class II MUT trail (2 ' in width) in which they will narrow it down by allowing the back-slope spoils to fill in the high side of the trail. Good luck on that...

    (It's often cheaper to machine-cut a trail wider and then narrow it back down than it is to hand-cut a narrower trail in the first place if paid labor is being used)
    The views and opinions expressed here are those of the author and do not represent any policy of the CA Dept. of Parks & Rec.

  2. #102
    middle ring single track
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    A contrarian opinion...

    I recall when they redid the section from Oak Ridge/Miwok to the beginning of Bay View near Knight in 2008. It was awful. 2,3 years later; it's pretty sweet and getting sweeter. Some sections of Bayview were getting pretty narrow, crumbling away into the ravine below. Just saying....


    Assuming the usual maintenance practices (the tractor won't be back for at least 10 years) then in 2 or 3 years the trial will be looking like a narrow single track again. May even have some rocky/rooty skilz sections...

    In 10 years time some sections will be so rough (you finish the sentence)

    This is all because the current State trail standards don't embrace Grade Reversals and Rolling-Grade Dips (RGDs) that are sooo important when wheeled vehicles (bikes) use unpaved trails. The current policy of relying on out-slope and occasional drain-dips is destined to fail. (because typically they don't receive the intensive semi-annual maintenance required for this style of trail)

    Write your State Senator...
    The views and opinions expressed here are those of the author and do not represent any policy of the CA Dept. of Parks & Rec.

  3. #103
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    Defund them more - no money means no maintenance.

  4. #104
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    Wait!...

    ...there's more!!!


    This came from some marketing focus firm and since where the focus was surveyed wasn't stated the graph really isn't very valid but shows some interesting trends nonetheless. (I believe the question was "what do you like to do outdoors")

    Notice the relative size of Mtn Biking (or Equestrian for that matter) to Hiking (or Hiking plus Backpacking)

    That's how we're seen by our elected officials; just a small piece of the pie. Why we must present our advocacy loud and clear (and politely).

    It just doesn't matter that we may be the majority of users at a given Park (or other...)

    It makes matters worse statistically in that almost all bikers are also hikers but most hikers are not also bikers. We inadvertently add power to the "other" user group.

    More threadjack still to come...
    The views and opinions expressed here are those of the author and do not represent any policy of the CA Dept. of Parks & Rec.

  5. #105
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    What kind of hiker likes these mini fireroads anyway? I like my hikes hard and frankly I prefer stuff so hard to be mostly unrideable. Doesn't anyone like adventure anymore. Maybe this was done for the pony crew?

  6. #106
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    Regarding that survey. Lot's of fat lazy people claim they "hike" and never do. I think the numbers are inflated. Most American's have just one hobby: TV.

  7. #107
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    Backside

    Backside is owned mostly by City of San Rafael and Private Property.

  8. #108
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    [QUOTE=pliebenberg;10105851
    Notice the relative size of Mtn Biking (or Equestrian for that matter) to Hiking (or Hiking plus Backpacking)

    That's how we're seen by our elected officials; just a small piece of the pie. Why we must present our advocacy loud and clear (and politely).

    It just doesn't matter that we may be the majority of users at a given Park (or other...)

    [/QUOTE]

    We simply need to make the point, very stingily, that this understanding is not applicable to China Camp.Not even....
    I don't rattle.

  9. #109
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    Just rode Bayview today with three other riders and did the worked area.Yes it is raw. I think the problem that has been set up is that this section will be really fast. Once bedded in it will be like lower Bayview (Owl) and Oakridge which just begs to be pegged. I can live with that. We just have to wait a season or two.

    FWIW as far as the old section of rocky "tech" which some people seem to like: there is some sense that succeeding on it, up or down, merited a judo.Yeah, I get that. Yet, as someone who has riden just about anything anyone else has, and on a HT, I think it was just crappy and it was only 50 yards long. Doesn't that seem a little desperate and pathetic?.

    The real problem is that we don't have many places to ride. Again, access is the real issue. Let's go out and get more. Improve where we can. The rest is details. Quit sniveling.

    Go do trailwork this weekend:

    Chain Camp
    Tamarancho Flo
    JMP
    I don't rattle.

  10. #110
    ballbuster
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    Quote Originally Posted by ehigh View Post
    Almost went to China camp a week ago and I didn't based on a rumor about all this.

    Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2
    I actually took the Singlespeed with BikerScoutSparky, with some reluctance on my part after reading and seeing pics of how it was defiled.

    I'm glad I went. There are still challenging bits at China Camp (at least on the singlespeed). We hammered it out and still had a good time. I got three Strava PRs that day, and managed to clean the big paved climb (including a PR on the climb), even though it was my first time on the Singlespeed since about September.

    Looking back, yeah... I'll miss that rooty section, but I can see why they did it. That section was basically washing out pretty badly. It was not sustainable. They re-routed it up the hill a bit and blocked off the old trail.

    Gonna miss doing this:

    Last edited by pimpbot; 01-25-2013 at 04:07 PM.

  11. #111
    (slight return)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    , I think it was just crappy and it was only 50 yards long. Doesn't that seem a little desperate and pathetic?.
    50 yards here, 50 yards there... Remember when the rock at Tamarancho was a challenge? Remember when Oakridge had some fun roots that got plowed under? Remember when the rock garden on Wagon wheel was funner? Remember Diaz ridge? Remember Meditation trail (now 680)? All fun trails that have been dumbed down to auto pilot mode, and every time it happens people with your attitude say, "it's just one little section..."

    I live pretty close to this section and start a lot of rides going up it. When I was a noob I use to blast down it on a hardtail in toeclips like an idiot but survived. I watched my wife crash on it and slide head first 20 feet down the bank screaming the entire way, then get to the bottom and say "actually that wasn't that bad." Now that I ride out there with my 7 year old we always talk about "mom's big crash" that happened there.

    That section would vary from season to season. Sometimes it would be downright easy. Other times it might get a little eroded, dusty or wet and become more of a challenge. There was a line on the left up over some rocks that was rarely ridden and easier cranking on a singlespeed, and the more popular line on the right. On the right the middle ring was the way to go, power over finesse. But sometimes you just don't feel like shifting up and do it in granny and then it was more challenging. Get over the first root, then pop the front over the second root just as the back wheel is hitting the first root, off balance, then hold it together until you get around the corner. There used to be a couple rocks at the corner but those were dug up a couple years ago, remember that? I'll admit to dabbing on it more than once, and I've watched a lot of good visiting riders get caught off guard there as well.

    So no, it doesn't sound pathetic to me. Your comment on the other hand does.

  12. #112
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    It's not pathetic that we don't have many places to ride?
    I don't rattle.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    I wonder if bay area land mangers are trying to make trails "ADA compliant" or something? I never seen anyone run mini-dozers down trails in other areas such as as the central coast. The trails down there are super rocky and they like them that way!
    Interesting you mention this. I was in a private meeting with some parks (not CSP, however) planners, along with Pliebenberg a few weeks ago, discussing some new trail construction proposed for a local park. One of the parks planners mentioned that they had been directed by their superiors to make ADA a consideration for all future multi-use trails. This does not necessarily mean paved and flat, but it would mean concessions to width, grade, passing areas (pullouts), and length of continuous ascent allowed before leveling off (provide a chance to rest).

    -D

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post


    Assuming the usual maintenance practices (the tractor won't be back for at least 10 years) then in 2 or 3 years the trial will be looking like a narrow single track again. May even have some rocky/rooty skilz sections...

    In 10 years time some sections will be so rough (you finish the sentence)

    This is all because the current State trail standards don't embrace Grade Reversals and Rolling-Grade Dips (RGDs) that are sooo important when wheeled vehicles (bikes) use unpaved trails. The current policy of relying on out-slope and occasional drain-dips is destined to fail. (because typically they don't receive the intensive semi-annual maintenance required for this style of trail)

    Write your State Senator...
    I hear what you are saying though I'd argue that a trail that starts out at 4-8' and grows in does not ride the same as a trail that is built and maintained to a narrower width to begin with.

    I'd also argue that grade reversals are critical even for trails that don't see wheeled travel. If you want to see a local example, check out the Webb Canyon trail at AQ; it was built when the county was in the early days of their Sweco ownership, and they relied only on outslope when they re-routed the last 1/8 of a mile before the New Almaden trail. It gets moderate foot traffic (no horses or bikes allowed), and it has seen significant cupping, to the point where the water can no longer escape the trail in that section.

    -D

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGordo View Post
    Damn.
    Who owns the dominican side?
    Can they do this over there?
    Damn is all i can say.
    Hey Gordo,

    If you bring up the Dominican side again, we might have to do something about it I just rode there today; trails are in good shape.

    As for the trail sanitation in China Camp...whatever, I rode it today; it was fine. It is done; the trail will take a new shape with time. If your really looking for technical trails, your at the wrong spot

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    Regarding that survey. Lot's of fat lazy people claim they "hike" and never do. I think the numbers are inflated. Most American's have just one hobby: TV.
    TV, you're funny.

  17. #117
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    And yet you'll note that the section of the trail at China Camp which was "sanitized" was a degraded Sweco trail which saw no maintenance for many years. "Properly" made or not there are a lot of riders who very much enjoyed it. People rave about Annadel (which I love) but the really cool sections are a small part of the overall ride and were never perfectly crafted.

    I keep getting back to the idea that access to a volume of trails is more critical to us than beautifully crafted trails. Beautifully crafted trails are the exception and represent a small percentage of our trails.Cool; I get it, and admire the skill. Yet it is akin to oozing over welds on a frame when what you needed is a solid bike that works well.

    A good portion of our problem is that the kind of riding people jones for are really destination type rides, rare in our area. A really special thing is being done in Tamarancho right now and is getting huge support form a variety of local mountain bikers. But is is a very limited style of riding for a very short distance. While we may enjoy this the expectation that absent such principles mtb is not fun is odd.

    I think we need to pick our battles. Access first and quality enhancements second. Along the way, just has we have done for the last 26 years of advocacy, we educate. That said, we are 15-20 years away from a decent representation of what people seem to want. Unless folks get on board with support for marginal gains think twice that if ever.
    I don't rattle.

  18. #118
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    Berkeley Mike is making some really good sense in his last post. Bravo! I'll be there tomorrow to volunteer and get a feel for all of this in person. We'll be brushing and doing drainage which shouldn't p___ off anyone here. Anyone else coming out?

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by IrieRider View Post
    I think the short answer to this is no, or at least I really hope not....

    I believe that land is owned by the city of San Rafael and Marin Parks.
    San Rafael PD enforces the backside, and judging from the recent crime hitting the city I think bike enforcement/trail sanitation, or any upkeep at all would be their absolute last priority.

  20. #120
    ballbuster
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    Yeah....

    Quote Originally Posted by normarin View Post
    San Rafael PD enforces the backside, and judging from the recent crime hitting the city I think bike enforcement/trail sanitation, or any upkeep at all would be their absolute last priority.
    Just don't create problems (buzzing hikers, getting into fights, being snarky), and I think everybody will be just fine.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    FWIW as far as the old section of rocky "tech" which some people seem to like: there is some sense that succeeding on it, up or down, merited a judo.Yeah, I get that. Yet, as someone who has riden just about anything anyone else has, and on a HT, I think it was just crappy and it was only 50 yards long. Doesn't that seem a little desperate and pathetic?.

    The real problem is that we don't have many places to ride. Again, access is the real issue. Let's go out and get more. Improve where we can. The rest is details. Quit sniveling.

    Go do trailwork this weekend:

    Chain Camp
    Tamarancho Flo
    JMP
    When I started this thread it was when a lot of discussion was going on regarding the new fees at China Camp. Being asked to pay for this kind of work at the park doesn't seem right. Let alone paying at all. Yes it was a small section which I thought was fun. The Bobcat is still there and it keeps going farther. That was the point. Is this the start of a park project to widen and smooth out any rough sections? What is the plan? No one at FOCC is responding and we (the mountain bike community) are being asked (or told) to fund it.
    I agree increasing access is important but I hate to have one of the few legal places to ride singletrack in Marin be turned into another fire road experience. I love the Mt. Tam fireroads every once in awhile but at least China Camp is somewhat singletrack. Slide Mon is right, losing small sections decreases the overall experience.

  22. #122
    YOUREGO ISNOT YOURAMIGO
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    I cannot wait to retire and move to Bend.
    Just the fact that the FOCC'ers won't respond to ANYONE IS INSANE and speaks volumes to how we, MTB'ers, are looked at.
    TOTAL BS!
    Have fun with your workday and try and recruit some of the people there to come out to tamorancho and help build a real trail.
    Bunch a crooks sold the park and now a bunch a selfish FOCCKERS are trying to keep it to themselves and ruin it.
    Un b leave able.
    Sorry all, but this peesis me off to no end.
    Iv'e Waited for over 37 years for some good trail access and now im told i'll have to wait 15-20 more before we can get some.
    Seriously?
    We, the collective MTB community, should see if we can bring a class action suit against the FOCC'ers, The State of cali, and anyone else who trys to deny us access.
    We've waited long enough!!!
    For fock sake they've got a skate park thats more dangerous than anything we could build.
    Whole Foods 20% beer discount rant over.
    Good night!



    China Camp Trail Sanitation-imageuploadedbytapatalk1359273392.909115.jpg
    Banned for showing Boobies.

  23. #123
    I'm really diggin it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGordo View Post
    I cannot wait to retire and move to Bend.
    Just the fact that the FOCC'ers won't respond to ANYONE IS INSANE and speaks volumes to how we, MTB'ers, are looked at.
    TOTAL BS!
    Have fun with your workday and try and recruit some of the people there to come out to tamorancho and help build a real trail.
    Bunch a crooks sold the park and now a bunch a selfish FOCCKERS are trying to keep it to themselves and ruin it.
    Un b leave able.
    Sorry all, but this peesis me off to no end.
    Iv'e Waited for over 37 years for some good trail access and now im told i'll have to wait 15-20 more before we can get some.
    Seriously?
    We, the collective MTB community, should see if we can bring a class action suit against the FOCC'ers, The State of cali, and anyone else who trys to deny us access.
    We've waited long enough!!!
    For fock sake they've got a skate park thats more dangerous than anything we could build.
    Whole Foods 20% beer discount rant over.
    Good night!



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    GoGoGordo!

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGordo View Post
    I cannot wait to retire and move to Bend.
    Just the fact that the FOCC'ers won't respond to ANYONE IS INSANE and speaks volumes to how we, MTB'ers, are looked at.
    TOTAL BS!
    Have fun with your workday and try and recruit some of the people there to come out to tamorancho and help build a real trail.
    Bunch a crooks sold the park and now a bunch a selfish FOCCKERS are trying to keep it to themselves and ruin it.
    Un b leave able.
    Sorry all, but this peesis me off to no end.
    Iv'e Waited for over 37 years for some good trail access and now im told i'll have to wait 15-20 more before we can get some.
    Seriously?
    We, the collective MTB community, should see if we can bring a class action suit against the FOCC'ers, The State of cali, and anyone else who trys to deny us access.
    We've waited long enough!!!
    For fock sake they've got a skate park thats more dangerous than anything we could build.
    Whole Foods 20% beer discount rant over.
    Good night!



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    That takes balls to post that!

  25. #125
    sbd
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    Your problem is largely a SFB/Marin issue. No need to go as far as Bend to watch the drama fade. Spend a few weekends in Ft. Bragg.

    I helped the BTC build China Camp. Only to have idiots that never helped dictate how I should ride them. Over it.

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