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  1. #76
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    The ability to freely maintain trails is crucial in keeping trails in good shape, fear of fines is the reason so many trail go without maintenance. So funny that some hikers came by and stated that the flow trial wouldn't work for them, they have hundreds of miles of other hiking trails. I would also wonder if they have ever picked up a tool and helped build or repair trail?

    I did a lunch ride on the front side of CC today and saw first hand what had been done to the traiil, it looked far worse than what the photos had shown, It appeared that they demolished several trees at least.
    A couple of rangers where hanging out near by but didn't speak to them as it seemed unwise to start an argument, especially when you don't have a pass either.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mt. Tam Haze View Post
    A couple of rangers where hanging out near by but didn't speak to them as it seemed unwise to start an argument, especially when you don't have a pass either.
    This reveals something interesting: the relative nature of trails is precluded by the question of rights of access. That is Haze didn't comment because he did not feel he had a right to be there.

    This is fundamentally what Advocacy is about.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 01-23-2013 at 09:24 AM.
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  3. #78
    sbd
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    Marin..bummer.

  4. #79
    I'm really diggin it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbd View Post
    Marin..bummer.
    Indeed

  5. #80
    sbd
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    Always drama. Never chill. Everyone is all righteous. Miss it sometimes, then I go to Ft. Bragg and I forget all about it.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbd View Post
    Always drama. Never chill. Everyone is all righteous. Miss it sometimes, then I go to Ft. Bragg and I forget all about it.
    Marin doesn't have nearly as much cannabis smoke in the air, you know.

  7. #82
    YOUREGO ISNOT YOURAMIGO
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    Marin doesn't have nearly as much cannabis smoke in the air, you know.
    Well, that's debatable.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails China Camp Trail Sanitation-my-baby.jpg  

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  8. #83
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    I rode this section late yesterday evening. Hard to tell from the original photos but, holy crap, this is a complete re-route. I thought maybe they just pushed some dirt over the existing route but nooooo.

    Looks like somebody hadn't played with their Bobcat tractor in a while and was making up for lost time.

    George

  9. #84
    YOUREGO ISNOT YOURAMIGO
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post

    The most frustrating moment at the flow trail build so far was when 3 or 4 hikers and 3 or 4 pairs of hiking sticks came up to visit the flow trail build. I could tell there was some kind of evaluation going on. They were standing there taking it all in so I decided to speak with them. I didn't hassle them about passes or get confrontational. Just said hello. They all started in about how these kinds of trails didn't suit hikers and hikers couldn't walk on them. Meanwhile volunteer workers were walking all over the place up and down the flow trail with tools and heavy split redwood logs no problems. For sure one of the strangest conversations I have ever had.
    You did tell them the trail is NOT for hiking right?
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGordo View Post
    You did tell them the trail is NOT for hiking right?
    I thought those trails are stickily for bikes? Hikers have the rest of the county and most of all the other better counties.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGordo View Post
    You did tell them the trail is NOT for hiking right?
    Having to watch for hikers on the flow trail would be a bummer.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGordo View Post
    You did tell them the trail is NOT for hiking right?
    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    I thought those trails are stickily for bikes? Hikers have the rest of the county and most of all the other better counties.
    Quote Originally Posted by fuenstock View Post
    Having to watch for hikers on the flow trail would be a bummer.
    Yeah they knew the trail was not for hiking. I'm am certain the anti bike people are keeping tabs on us. It was like that Sesame Street song. One of these things is not like the other.

    Classic Sesame One of these things is not like the other - YouTube

    I only spoke with them for a moment and then they plodded off past the work crew and directly up the closed work area. I'm sure they don't have passes either. But whatever. I'm not about to turn around and become a trail enforcer after spending my entire life despising trail enforcers.

    The trail will be downhill one way only and will be closed to non pass holders. I will lobby for the flow trail to only open to bikes but I'm not the "decider". Seems pretty logical to me. I wouldn't worry about this isolated incident. I only brought it up to discuss the closed mindedness of the people out there who decide things for all of us.

  13. #88
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    Thank you for that sober reminder. : (

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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    I will lobby for the flow trail to only open to bikes but I'm not the "decider". Seems pretty logical to me.
    I like the concept of "bike priority" labeling. I've seen it used to good effect at Paradise Royale and in DuPont State Forest outside Asheville, North Carolina. I'm sure there are lots of other examples. It keeps hikers/runners from feeling excluded from the trail, but also communicates that bikes have the right of way, so people should watch out! Usually, that's enough to encourage hikers/runners to use other trails. At a place like Tamarancho, which is private property and an obvious haven for bikers, I would think such an approach would work.

    But then again, it's Marin, so, who knows.
    Quote Originally Posted by jbt56
    Are you a whiny Marin liberal, or a hand-wringing Berkeley liberal?

  15. #90
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    Its funny that some part of the public demand "hiking only" trails but struggle with bikers getting even one of their own.

  16. #91
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    Photos from the trail yesterday. Order is heading uphill from power lines:


    Old route is visible on the right edge of new trail.


    Looking back down new section towards power lines.


    Corner now filled with rocks for drainage.


    Higher view at the corner looking back down towards power lines. Old route to the left.


    Looking up towards the next section and corner.


    And the upper corner now without any rocks.
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  17. #92
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    Wow, looks like the stuff Mid Pen does to "prevent" erosion. San Mateo County did this at one park and covered it in compacted gravel so the pony princesses could ride in the winter.

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanskellner View Post
    Photos from the trail yesterday. Order is heading uphill from power lines:


    Old route is visible on the right edge of new trail.


    Looking back down new section towards power lines.


    Corner now filled with rocks for drainage.


    Higher view at the corner looking back down towards power lines. Old route to the left.


    Looking up towards the next section and corner.


    And the upper corner now without any rocks.
    Damn.
    Who owns the dominican side?
    Can they do this over there?
    Damn is all i can say.
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  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGordo View Post
    Damn.
    Who owns the dominican side?
    Can they do this over there?
    I think the short answer to this is no, or at least I really hope not....

    I believe that land is owned by the city of San Rafael and Marin Parks.

  20. #95
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    Rode this section today and it was a loose muddy disaster. About 3X more trail turned into a freeway than when I took the pictures last week. Gonna be ugly when the next real storm hits. Have to say I have learned a lot from these posts about the difficulties of working with California bureaucracies. Still disagree with the outcome but have a better idea of how it happens. Think I'm going to try the trail work Sunday and see what happens. Definitely not going to participate in any trail sanitation but maybe can see what their priorities are and find out if it's possible to steer them in a MTB friendly direction. Complaining about it is cathartic but futile. I did send FOCC a nicely worded email last week questioning the trail work and never heard back. Poor community relations to not respond to emails. Still haven't paid. Despite my outrage at being charged for a state park I would be more likely to cave if the fee was applied fairly. Oh, and I checked the state park website and it only mentioned charges for camping and parking, not for trail access. In fact it says, "There is no charge to walk or bike into these parks". Here's the link and you can check out the charges at every state park.

    Day Use Fees

    Regardless of how CC works out, the Tamarancho news is exciting and I need to spend some time helping out there. Rode there last week and talked to a couple guys working on the flow trail and it looks awesome!

  21. #96
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    A contrarian opinion...

    I recall when they redid the section from Oak Ridge/Miwok to the beginning of Bay View near Knight in 2008. It was awful. 2,3 years later; it's pretty sweet and getting sweeter. Some sections of Bayview were getting pretty narrow, crumbling away into the ravine below. Just saying....
    I don't rattle.

  22. #97
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    This is exactly what's happening, one by one, to the trails in the Northern Virginia/DC area. Everything that was remotely challenging (rocks and roots, off camber sections) gets bulldozed into 4' wide vanilla super highways.

    What was once a challenging semi-technical loop that held up really well to rain, is now an uninspiring path of mud anytime we get more than a light mist.

    In response to the mud, some trail managers lay gravel on the trail (super awesome ), while others close the trail system down for several days when they're even remotely wet. Since it rains every couple of days here in the summer, it's not uncommon for a trail system to be closed for 1-2 weeks at a time.

    This your future, N. Cal...resist we much!


  23. #98
    middle ring single track
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mt. Tam Haze View Post
    The ability to freely maintain trails is crucial in keeping trails in good shape, fear of fines is the reason so many trail go without maintenance.
    This^^^
    The views and opinions expressed here are those of the author and do not represent any policy of the CA Dept. of Parks & Rec.

  24. #99
    middle ring single track
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    Define "MTB friendly"...

    Quote Originally Posted by timetraveler View Post
    Rode this section today and it was a loose muddy disaster. About 3X more trail turned into a freeway than when I took the pictures last week. Gonna be ugly when the next real storm hits. Have to say I have learned a lot from these posts about the difficulties of working with California bureaucracies. Still disagree with the outcome but have a better idea of how it happens. Think I'm going to try the trail work Sunday and see what happens. Definitely not going to participate in any trail sanitation but maybe can see what their priorities are and find out if it's possible to steer them in a MTB friendly direction. Complaining about it is cathartic but futile. I did send FOCC a nicely worded email last week questioning the trail work and never heard back. Poor community relations to not respond to emails. Still haven't paid. Despite my outrage at being charged for a state park I would be more likely to cave if the fee was applied fairly. Oh, and I checked the state park website and it only mentioned charges for camping and parking, not for trail access. In fact it says, "There is no charge to walk or bike into these parks". Here's the link and you can check out the charges at every state park.
    Having suffered through a similar situation at Henry W Coe SP I'm fairly certain we've "gotten to the bottom" in understanding the CSP's position on MTBs in State Parks.

    It varies somewhat from District to District but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

    I'll elaborate on the "trail standards" in another post but here I'd like to point out that (in my opinion) current policies encourage biking to and in Parks to have fun; but not to have fun on a bike.

    In other words; they encouorage us to ride our bikes so we can participate in a secondary activity (like bird watching) but discourage us from enjoying any experiences that can only be had on a bike (speed, skillz, etc).

    This isn't an exact quote but CSP maintains that "trails should not be attractions unto themselves" in State Parks. (Important distinction; in State Recreation Areas different guidelines apply)

    In regards to the "muddy mess"; most Trail Crews know that the freshly-worked trails should be closed until after the first good rains (or one full season) but experience has taught them that users will disregard signs and hike/ride them regardless. (so why bother trying to post them closed)


    Vandalized "area closed" sign in Coe SP
    The views and opinions expressed here are those of the author and do not represent any policy of the CA Dept. of Parks & Rec.

  25. #100
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    Almost went to China camp a week ago and I didn't based on a rumor about all this.

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