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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piranha426 View Post

    As for why CSP wanted to sanitize the trail, and why they decided to do it the way they did - who knows. I don't. The advocacy community will follow up with both CSP and FOCC, and do our best to communicate what it means when these kinds of actions are implemented without the input of the local cycling community. But, damn, I don't know what else to tell people when these things happen. We do our best. We show up. We write letters. We make our opinions (and the opinions of the people we meet) known. But no one has to ask us for permission to do anything - like, really, ANYTHING - so I don't really see how it's our fault when things happen that people don't like.
    A MCBC rep told me yesterday the motivation for that sanitization was safety b/c there had supposedly been numerous injuries there.

  2. #52
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    In Coe park while doing a walk through of the Jim Donnelly Trail, the district trails supervisor remarked to us that a rolling grade dip needed to be smoothed out because someone might slip on it. I was speechless. In that case - just don't get out of bed for crying out loud - you might slip on the way o the bathroom to take a leak.
    SOrCerer

  3. #53
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    I wonder if bay area land mangers are trying to make trails "ADA compliant" or something? I never seen anyone run mini-dozers down trails in other areas such as as the central coast. The trails down there are super rocky and they like them that way!
    Last edited by SS Hack; 01-20-2013 at 10:28 AM.

  4. #54
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    my SS Rigid loved that root section too...bummer!

  5. #55
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    Friends of China Camp: Our Team

    ^^^We need to get a mountain biker on this "team", looks like all hikers and runners, not exactly representative of the parks major user group.

  6. #56
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    Good point. This"team" does look pretty stacked, intentionally or not. Yet folk often end up in positions like this by default. Good devoted people find places here. That said, is there a mountain biker in the area who would be willing to devote themselves to involvement with this "team"? If there was I imagine a place would be found.

    Every time I look at a job that needs to be done I know that I would be able to do it. If I don't know how to do it I can learn and make things happen. It is a matter of having the talent and the will and finding the time. Few people put themselves in a position to actually do something and follow through.

    I keep waiting to see such people wherever I go.

    Story...
    The other night at a meeting there were 5 NorCal coaches/directors and 2 representatives of a local women's athletic group besides the group's board. After the meeting, over beers, the VP mentioned that it was a really great meeting with great people and that it would be great to recruit these capable folks to take an oar. What was clear, though, was that what we saw was a sampling of the kinds of people who actually do the work, so of course they looked like likely candidates. But there are limits to how much folks can take on; these folks were already dedicated to a chunk of work which fit in their lives.

    These sorts of folks are in limited supply.

    People with ideas and complaints are a dime a dozen.
    I don't rattle.

  7. #57
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    Well said Mike, I should clarify that I'm not trying to knock those on the FOCC 'team' but rather to highlight the need for a mtb representative in their hierarchy. I honestly have no idea how to get involved with them. I've tried contacting them through several channels with no response and it appears others have experienced the same. The only times I've heard of any chances to get involved with trail work is through MCBC.

    It seemed like FOCC did a great job of contacting people and getting the word out that when they needed $$$ before they were designated the park operators, while the info now seems to be much more sparse.

    It also seems like the major focus of the "team" is the preservation of the Chinese heritage at the park and that is all good and well, why those same people also are having major impact on the trail usage and maintenance is not clear, especially since they seem to lack anyone from the main user group. I do not believe there is a shortage of mtb advocates in Marin/Bay Area that would like to be involved or at least made aware of how they can be and I do not feel that is asking too much.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    n take on; these folks were already dedicated to a chunk of work which fit in their lives.

    These sorts of folks are in limited supply.

    People with ideas and complaints are a dime a dozen.
    Comrade Mike, you are part of the problem when you post crap like this and condone unnecessary trail sanitization (even if it is at China Camp)

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by testing1.2.3. View Post
    Comrade Mike, you are part of the problem when you post crap like this and condone unnecessary trail sanitization (even if it is at China Camp)
    I am not condoning anything of the sort. I am, rather, pointing out that we seem to be able to do little to influence the process. As long as people on the board/team can fall back on predetermined plans and programs which serve their own sense of purpose we are SOL.

    Placing someone on that board, or a couple someone's to offset the balance against us, is our best hope. This is hardly a new idea; it is the MO wherever we have needed to influence park managers to include our desires for land usage.

    Again, finding those sorts of folks in our Mtb community is very hard for the reasons I described earlier.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 01-21-2013 at 11:56 PM.
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by IrieRider View Post
    Well said Mike, I should clarify that I'm not trying to knock those on the FOCC 'team' but rather to highlight the need for a mtb representative in their hierarchy. I honestly have no idea how to get involved with them. I've tried contacting them through several channels with no response and it appears others have experienced the same. The only times I've heard of any chances to get involved with trail work is through MCBC.

    It seemed like FOCC did a great job of contacting people and getting the word out that when they needed $$$ before they were designated the park operators, while the info now seems to be much more sparse.

    I do not believe there is a shortage of mtb advocates in Marin/Bay Area that would like to be involved or at least made aware of how they can be and I do not feel that is asking too much.
    It is very hard to get a seat at such a table. A formal vetting is challenging but the informal political vetting is really the hardest to get past. As always, when folks have things the way they like them, why allow influences into the mix which undermine their goals?

    As to your second point, we do our best to pay people only after they have done what we have asked. Unfortunately our goodwill was scooped up from our beneficence, as we wanted to help. Now, in some sense, we have been swindled. Going forward there are quite a few folks who now have no intention to give these FoCC folks another dime now that they have shown their real colors.

    Thirdly; I have to disagree with you about the ambient presence of volunteers from our community to do this work. Sure plenty want to be informed but such a paradigm just sets up a reactionary force which can only look foolishly irritating to the folks at the table when they complain. Such bodies learn that all they have to do is wait that energy out and it will spend itself and go away. That never gets mtb anywhere. An advocate who had the time and energy to endure the board and its processes, AND, run the gauntlet of vetting successfully is certainly a low likelihood. Even the MCBC is held aside. Yet, that is our best shot.
    I don't rattle.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by IrieRider View Post

    It seemed like FOCC did a great job of contacting people and getting the word out that when they needed $$$ before they were designated the park operators, while the info now seems to be much more sparse.
    +1
    Seemed to me as if representatives of FOCC were around every corner, and behind every tree when they were looking for donations to save the park. Willing to talk for fifteen minutes or more about how pro-MTBing they were. Now I see none of them. To give credit where credit is due however, they do seem to be able to get downed trees out of the way much faster than the previous management could. I ride CC a lot. I donated to keep the park open. Now I am frustrated and regret my donation.

  12. #62
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    Volunteer Workday at China Camp this weekend

    Volunteer Trail Workday at China Camp, January 27
    Help MCBC repair eroding trails and trim vegetation

    MCBC, in cooperation with Friends of China Camp (FOCC), announces an opportunity for volunteers to help repair eroding trail surfaces and trim vegetation on multi-use trails at China Camp State Park. MCBC, FOCC and California State Parks staff have planned a volunteer workday on January 27, from 9 AM - 1 PM. All necessary equipment and materials, along with water and snacks, will be provided at the worksite. Just bring muscle power and enthusiasm! Volunteers are advised to dress in layers and to be aware that poison oak can be found in the area.

    We will meet at 8:45 AM at the main China Camp entrance gate off North San Pedro Road, and then walk or bike to the work site. RSVP to April Spooner at april@marinbike.org, or (415) 456-3467 x 7#. Heavy rain will cancel the event.
    Last edited by Piranha426; 01-22-2013 at 01:10 PM. Reason: It was originally meant as a reply to an e-mail farther up in the thread that for some reason got misplaced, so I changed the intro.
    Quote Originally Posted by jbt56
    Are you a whiny Marin liberal, or a hand-wringing Berkeley liberal?

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by IrieRider View Post
    Friends of China Camp: Our Team

    ^^^We need to get a mountain biker on this "team", looks like all hikers and runners, not exactly representative of the parks major user group.
    Ernest (the FOCC director) is a mountain biker, and he's trying really hard to engage the MTB community. They show up at Ales and Trails and had an event last year that focused on MTB (but it was scheduled for the day after Biketoberfest so not a lot of people showed up). I don't know the rest of the team, but I think they're all learning a lot of this as they go along...
    Quote Originally Posted by jbt56
    Are you a whiny Marin liberal, or a hand-wringing Berkeley liberal?

  14. #64
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    MTB has been encouraged to support such efforts in many venues in the name of building relationships. This includes areas to which mtb has no access.

    Mtb in the East Bay has offered to help on trails, and offer expertise, tip it is blue in the face but is only allow through organizations such as V-O-Cal. The BTCEB has, however, managed a very direct relationship in Joaquin Miller which has benefited mtb a great deal in spite of other trail users resistance.

    Concerning China Camp this thread has exposed feelings of alienation, of being outside the process, of being ignored, and even excluded. This trail work day does make an opportunity to make contact and keep an eye on what is done.

    If you are invested in China Camp then this is a great chance to make some contacts and show these other trail groups what we are about.
    I don't rattle.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    Man, that sucks. Used to head up there from San Jose to get a variety on the riding, but it's quite a bit of a ride from here so I haven't been up there in a year.

    From what I understand, FOCC is now controlling China Camp, which means China Camp is no longer part of the State Parks, is that correct?
    No. China Camp is still a State Park, and is still owned by State Parks, and governed by State Parks rules and regulations. The main difference is that instead of State Parks signing the checks for its operations (paying employees, purchasing supplies for maintenance, etc.), FOCC is signing them.
    Quote Originally Posted by jbt56
    Are you a whiny Marin liberal, or a hand-wringing Berkeley liberal?

  16. #66
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    CSP Trail Standards for multi-use

    Quote Originally Posted by Piranha426 View Post
    No. China Camp is still a State Park, and is still owned by State Parks, and governed by State Parks rules and regulations. The main difference is that instead of State Parks signing the checks for its operations (paying employees, purchasing supplies for maintenance, etc.), FOCC is signing them.
    Herein lies the problem; once a trail in a State Park is designated multi-use (hike-bike-horse) then there are established guidelines to be followed (which I personally don't agree with) that in most circumstances result in a trail that is at least 4' wide.

    If Sorcerer doesn't beat me to it; I will post the CSP classification matrix and you'll see how the Park's staff may feel obligated to maintain the trails in the manner you see posted here. It's loaded against narrow/technical trails for bikes.

    Incidentally; staff may not agree either but it's the job they're being paid to do. It varies somewhat from District to District as the District Superintendent is given some leeway on interpreting the standards.

    IMHO; MTBers would be better served if some State Parks were changed to State Recreation Areas where the standards are more lax. Fodder for a different thread...
    The views and opinions expressed here are those of the author and do not represent any policy of the CA Dept. of Parks & Rec.

  17. #67
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    Lot's of state parks haven't been maintained since the 70s and the trails show it - not sure why they're picking on CC. We all know government drones aren't allowed to use any commonsense of course - I was even told this by some poor hapless mid-pen dozer operator after he hosed a trail.

  18. #68
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    That is really a bummer. My son is going to be so disappointing, as that was his favorite part of the trail.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails China Camp Trail Sanitation-p1020468.jpg  

    Riding slowly since 1977.

  19. #69
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    China Camp, the new CX mecca!

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post
    Herein lies the problem; once a trail in a State Park is designated multi-use (hike-bike-horse) then there are established guidelines to be followed (which I personally don't agree with) that in most circumstances result in a trail that is at least 4' wide.

    This, along with pretty much everything Berkeley Mike said, is reality.

    Doesn't matter how screwed up/outdated/retarded it is-it is what it is and it'll take a hell of a time commitment to change it.
    Until these things change, all FOCC will be doing is trying to maintain the crappy status quo. I dont agree with it, but I'm not going to spend a lifetime trying to change it either. Nonetheless, I choose not to support them.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post
    Herein lies the problem; once a trail in a State Park is designated multi-use (hike-bike-horse) then there are established guidelines to be followed (which I personally don't agree with) that in most circumstances result in a trail that is at least 4' wide.
    Ban horses. It is 21st century, people should not keep pack animals around for entertainment.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Ban horses. It is 21st century, people should not keep pack animals around for entertainment.
    They really wreck trails.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    I am not condoning anything of the sort. I am, rather, pointing out that we seem to be able to do little to influence the process. As long as people on the board/team can fall back on predetermined plans and programs which serve their own sense of purpose we are SOL.

    Placing someone on that board, or a couple someone's to offset the balance against us, is our best hope. This is hardly a new idea; it is the MO wherever we have needed to influence park managers to include our desires for land usage.

    Again, finding those sorts of folks in our Mtb community is very hard for the reasons I described earlier.
    Sign me up.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Ban horses. It is 21st century, people should not keep pack animals around for entertainment.
    Save a horse ride a bike!

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Ban horses. It is 21st century, people should not keep pack animals around for entertainment.
    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    They really wreck trails.
    Remember we are the majority user now. I say we try and show that we will clean up the horse damage and gladly work on trails that suit mountain bikers. If there was just some way to build trails that mountain bikers found enjoyable and were allowed to participate in the maintenance process on public land. Volunteers would be able to clean up any damage that was caused by horses. It is all just dirt. If the routing of the trail is sound you can fix it. The number #1 cause of erosion is water. Like 99% caused by water. The last one percent is what everyone is worrying about. I could give a hoot if horses ride someplace and tear it up. If there is a committed crew of mountain bikers that are allowed to maintain a trail without being fined or jailed the damage will be fixed. The trail will rip for everyone.

    The most frustrating moment at the flow trail build so far was when 3 or 4 hikers and 3 or 4 pairs of hiking sticks came up to visit the flow trail build. I could tell there was some kind of evaluation going on. They were standing there taking it all in so I decided to speak with them. I didn't hassle them about passes or get confrontational. Just said hello. They all started in about how these kinds of trails didn't suit hikers and hikers couldn't walk on them. Meanwhile volunteer workers were walking all over the place up and down the flow trail with tools and heavy split redwood logs no problems. For sure one of the strangest conversations I have ever had.

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