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  1. #1
    I'm really diggin it!
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    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?

    I have tried to stay away from the negative after my first MTBR meltdown about the guys poaching and damaging a lot of the flow trail. Seems it was all well and good until this morning.

    I brought a reporter from Marin Magazine with me to the flow trail build and while I was explaining to him how simply wonderful the mountain bike community has been about helping and respecting the trail closure someone starts riding down the trail and ripping out all of the caution tape.

    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?-picard-facepalm-hotlink.jpg

    So I'm watching this dude and I recognize his kit. I let the whole thing slide because I'm guessing it wouldn't reflect too well on the MTB community if I brain someone with an 8 pound sledgehammer in front of a reporter for Marin Magazine. In fact I distract him from the whole thing and hope he didn't notice. "Oh look an owl!"

    It took about four of us to put all of the signs and tape back up and we all walked around on the soft stuff creating even more work. We probably could have finished a few projects but we didn't because of one guy. Volunteers have been sparse and the little help we have has been wasted on the negative.

    All of us don't get to ride the trail that much sooner because of this one guy. I'm more than a little upset and when I get home I wonder: "did that idiot Strava the whole episode?" YUP. He did. He vandalized the only flow trail project in the Bay Area and he uploaded it to Strava.

    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?-areyoukiddingmeblackss.png

    I'm still kind of in shock someone would be so stupid. But I saw the kit and the kit matches the name on Strava and he is the Team Director of the kit he was wearing.

    So what do I do now? You guys make the call.

  2. #2
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    Re: Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?

    Pee on his leg, its the only logical choice.

  3. #3
    rho
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    At the very least you could flag his ride on strava. It also sounds like the guy has an address you found from his team kit and so forth so you could send off a few nice letters to him and his teams sponsors explaining the situation....

  4. #4
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    what a weirdo, post his name up

  5. #5
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    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?

    Out him. Let society judge him for his crimes.


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  6. #6
    fc
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    Contact him personally and give him the opportunity to respond/repair. If not, then the team. Then finally, here if necessary.

    fc
    IPA will save America

  7. #7
    YOUREGO ISNOT YOURAMIGO
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    Out the Mo' FO'!!
    Let the people decide what to do with him. Court of peers.
    Once I find out who he is and who he rides for well lets just say...

    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?-crazy_little_man_001.jpeg

    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?-dsc00141.jpg

    Farkin Idjiot.
    Banned for showing Boobies.

  8. #8
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    name and shame

  9. #9
    It's about showing up.
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    It is just a few guys that give poachers a bad name.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?-firingsquad2.jpg  

    I don't rattle.

  10. #10
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    I hereby sentence this moron to 100 hours of trail work on the flow trail.

  11. #11
    I'm really diggin it!
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    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?

    Team has been contacted, they have until Monday morning to come up with a suitable apology. Most suitable: a day of trail work Tuesday before I get back to flying airplanes.

    The part that bothers me most about all this is that the teams mission involves being role models for young people and the teams behavior as a whole makes the mountain bike community look quite bad.

    What I feel my options are:

    Out him on the flow trail Facebook page: 1000 followers more than a few of them bike industry folks

    Out him on MTBR

    Inform the teams sponsors. One of the teams sponsors has donated money to the flow trail project.

    Research the Tamaracho pass holder database. No pass? Press charges for trespassing and destruction of property.

    Research the possibility for having the passes revoked for the entire team.

  12. #12
    It's about showing up.
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    Don't overdo this; it is easy to have this person represent all the other clowns you can't catch.

    Do something direct with that person through the team. The collective culture there has the greatest power, certainly more than you. Use that force to bring the person out to do some trailwork, maybe 3 4-hour sessions.

    If it is a kid, remember, they make mistakes. You may create a trail worker for life, and a friend.
    I don't rattle.

  13. #13
    Pirate!!!
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    All that fluffy reprimand stuff you are talking about sounds quite scary.. However, up here in the mountains we like to take things to a more personal level. I'm thinking you should hunt him down an string him up! Come on boys lets get em!

    (This is supposed to be funny)

  14. #14
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    Turn it into a positive. If it's a large team and you can educate him on the errors of his ways (rather than scolding him and making him defensive), you could get the whole team to volunteer and get the whole thing finished quicker than ever.
    功夫大师喜欢骑着他的自行车在山上。

  15. #15
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    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?

    Without giving it away the vandal is the MTB team rider director, according to the teams web page.

    The Team had recently been contacted regarding a high participation on Strava at the flow trail and a zero participation in the form of trail work. I can't detail this yet as it would out the team.

    I feel the intentional vandalism of a volunteer project was the response to a principal trail work volunteer contacting the team about participating.

    I'm considering the incident (vandalism) the teams response, until I hear from the team.

  16. #16
    Formerly dvo
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    Name and shame....why protect someone that has shown no regard for all your hard work?

  17. #17
    fc
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    Davey,

    You need to step away from the computer. You are mad right now and all of us will just egg you on to just lynch these guys. (and rightfully so)

    But it's always good to let things cool, let them respond properly, before going on the offensive and making life-long enemies. Only bad things can come out of this if you go on the attack.

    fc
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  18. #18
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    There's only one person who rode that trail on April 5th according to Strava.... Just sayin'

  19. #19
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    I think it was Gandhi who said, "Reached back like a pimp and slapped the Ho." I think.

    I'm not sure outing him or fueling a payback is the best course of action...putting him on the defensive might lead to an escalation of bad Mojo and headaches for you. I'd take a Hostile Zen approach and make him feel like a doochebag through your calm demeanor and try to create a positive outcome. Ruining his name and dragging him through the mud is only going to create an enemy...sucks having enemies. Admittedly, would be fun to watch this play out, old west style.

    Q: Do you think he reads these forums and has already been "outed"?
    I'm not sure how this works.

  20. #20
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    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?

    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Davey,

    You need to step away from the computer. You are mad right now and all of us will just egg you on to just lynch these guys. (and rightfully so)

    But it's always good to let things cool, let them respond properly, before going on the offensive and making life-long enemies. Only bad things can come out of this if you go on the attack.

    fc
    Agreed. That is why I posted the thread. Thanks Francois. Let cooler heads prevail.

  21. #21
    I'm really diggin it!
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    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Katana View Post
    There's only one person who rode that trail on April 5th according to Strava.... Just sayin'
    The poach may have been deleted from Strava after I contacted the team. It was however screen captured and emailed to a lot of people including the team in question.

    Give them until Sunday to respond. Don't go all vigilante on someone who may not be involved that guy may have been doing trail work

    Until then these humorous videos perfectly summarize how I feel at the moment:

    http://youtu.be/l1Imv4Jcnwg

    http://youtu.be/2zUWXKThqHw

    http://youtu.be/PztgWdMEJdg

  22. #22
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    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?

    Stan's and feather him on opening day

  23. #23
    YOUREGO ISNOT YOURAMIGO
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Davey,

    You need to step away from the computer. You are mad right now and all of us will just egg you on to just lynch these guys. (and rightfully so)

    But it's always good to let things cool, let them respond properly, before going on the offensive and making life-long enemies. Only bad things can come out of this if you go on the attack.

    fc
    BS.
    Out that Mo Fo.
    Total disregard for the project = Max punishment.
    You need to see what the team says then act accordingly.
    We all worked too hard for one D-Bag (and his Team) to ruin it for the rest of us.
    And Francis, lynchings not good enough for this guy, dragging him down the trail a few times before, would be a good prelude to a lynching I think.

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    Banned for showing Boobies.

  24. #24
    I'm really diggin it!
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    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGordo View Post
    BS.
    Out that Mo Fo.
    Total disregard for the project = Max punishment.
    You need to see what the team says then act accordingly.
    We all worked too hard for one D-Bag (and his Team) to ruin it for the rest of us.
    And Francis, lynchings not good enough for this guy, dragging him down the trail a few times before, would be a good prelude to a lynching I think.

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    See Gordo spent a lot of his free time working hard with me and this is how he feels. I'd say this feeling escalates exponentially based on number of days at the trail...

    Anyway I've got some trail work to lead. See you guys this afternoon.

  25. #25
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    Whoa! Deleted his strava evidence! That doesn't seem like contrition. Thats downright evasion. Kind of disrespectful.

    But here I am egging you on. Shame on me.
    "Chancho. When you are a man sometimes you wear stretchy pants... Its for fun..."

  26. #26
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    Update:

    The "MTB Team Ride Director" deleted the STRAVA ride record and their Facebook account when called on it. We have the Strava screenshots.

    I think what's going to happen here is that they make amends through an apology and getting the team out for volunteer work, or we go public with the evidence.

    Over 2,000 hours of volunteer work have gone into this project. It really sucks for the volunteers who drive from 2 hours away to work on this project. It sucks that a junior development coach is fostering a culture of disrespect for the volunteers who are busting their butts to make mountain biking better.

    This person and their team has been taking hot lap after hot lap poaching the trail, but has been conspicuously absent in volunteer work. Stay tuned. This story is still developing...

  27. #27
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    Absolutely NO excuse for this!

    Utter bull$hit! This should NOT be handled with kid gloves. Be one thing if it was on regular trails and ribbons were up for "rain closure" or the like and pulled by hikers or the 4 leggers, but come on, friendly fire? Totally uncalled for.

    I commend Davey and Gordon for their restraint. Not just praising these 2 names, as I know there are countless others participating in the work, but they are the most vocal on the goings on with this "special project" with Jim Jacobsen. I'm sure alot of you commenting here that have/have not put in time they have to understand the displeasure they must be feeling. I know I would. I just hope it's not one the "team organizations" I'm thinking it is.
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  28. #28
    Paper or plastic?
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    Moral of the story: a dip$hit on a bike remains a dip$hit.
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  29. #29
    Like a boss.
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    Out him. I called out some reckless teenagers from AC a few years ago on MTBR and I don't regret it.
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    Are you a whiny Marin liberal, or a hand-wringing Berkeley liberal?

  30. #30
    Purveyor of Trail Tales!
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    Hi Folks,

    I just subscribed to see all the high drama in the Bay Area. It has all the elements of a great story.... heroic effort by a team of people to make a resource that will be a lasting contribution to all.... rogue team/individual flaunting disdain.....of course, since it's the Bay Area, Strava has to have a key role to play!

    Best Wishes to All for a Successful Outcome!

    Michael
    If you can't keep the rubber side down......at least smile for the camera!

  31. #31
    www.derbyrims.com
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    I've seen that same team director speeding, near the front of the large team, down near the bottom of Iron Springs road where the small neighborhood is. That's obviously very dangerous for residents or others driving up to their homes, and dangerous to the kids piling head-on through a windshield. The guy has no respect. I guess he's a volunteer for the team. If paid, he should be fired.

    Do the team members have passes? Do they support the trail or local BSA in anyway?

    I've been busy working long weeks this year, but have been able to put in a couple afternoons working on the flow trail, and previously worked many days building the original loop in the late '90's. It kills me to witness and see evidence of trail abuse.... Beginners skidding, taking short cuts, and other dis and mindless destruction of the trail.

  32. #32
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    My motorcycle club has a system for riding on closed trails.
    One warning with suspension. Second time you are caught, permanent ban.

    So the kid rips closure tapes and records the ride on Strava?
    Kid, you're not too bright. Maybe you should not be poaching trails.

    Best thing his coach could do is a team ride. Lock his bike to a tree and come back for him on the way home. Time outs work. Or a team fix the trail day.

  33. #33
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    KevXR. This was the COACH who listed the ride on Strava. The Strava record clearly shows this person riding the flow trail hours after the heaviest rain we've had over a month here in NorCal.

    FYI, I was one of the people who didn't ride my bike, and hiked in to spend the day doing trail work. Looks like I arrived at the work site a few minutes after it happened. I've put 30+ days into building this trail to a so that it would last for years and meet all environmental sustainability standards. I helped put the barriers up to close the trail during the storm. I personally saw the three sets of tire tracks, grooves in the soft, muddy soil, and skid marks.

  34. #34
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    banish the guy from riding in Tamarancho for a period of ?? months. if he is seen riding the park again, banish for life or press trespassing charges. if he is in the park after that, confiscate his bike and put it on craigslist.
    I bet you'd do the same if they was you!

  35. #35
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelsnead View Post
    Hi Folks,

    I just subscribed to see all the high drama in the Bay Area. It has all the elements of a great story.... heroic effort by a team of people to make a resource that will be a lasting contribution to all.... rogue team/individual flaunting disdain.....of course, since it's the Bay Area, Strava has to have a key role to play!

    Best Wishes to All for a Successful Outcome!

    Michael
    I posted just so I could subscribe and be notified of replies. This thread has all the keywords and the build-up. It's about to get real at the Flow Trail Parking Lot.

    fc
    IPA will save America

  36. #36
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    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?

    Why ***** foot around on this?

    The perpetrator is an adult. He knew what he was doing was blatantly wrong. He should deal with the consequences.
    Out him.
    Out the team that permits this behavior.
    Notify the team's sponsors to let them know what kind of people they are supporting.


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    Its all ****s and Giggles until somebody Giggles and ****s

  37. #37
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    Maybe name the Flow Trail after him? Just kidding. This guy sounds like a real piece of work. Good people hardly ever win against selfish rule breakers. He needs to become part of the work crew, and publicly take some ribbing. I have only volunteered once for this so I don't mean to be too preachy. Light hearted public ribbing. But we all know you have to be vindictive to tear off that closure tape. Sick-O. Real Jerk! My name is Todd McMahon, and I call this guy out. ....And I will do another work day with the guy.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Moral of the story: a dip$hit on a bike remains a dip$hit.
    This.

    Kick his ass Sea Bass!!!

  39. #39
    NedwannaB
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    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    It's about to get real at the Flow Trail Parking Lot.

    fc
    As it should.
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  40. #40
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    Hey, just curious, is riding after a rain against the rules? You have proof, maybe report it to Park Rangers? If the guy is as big of a ****** as reported, do you think he really gives a phuck?

    What rules did he break, and is there room for enforcement?

  41. #41
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    No riding after a rain isn't against the rules. Riding a trail that is a) clearly signed as closed, b) soft, slick, muddy and under construction is a ******bag move.

    The signs they rode by and crossed under said:

    "Trail closed ahead. Trail work in progress. Please respect..."
    "STOP if you ride further, you will damage the trail."
    "Trail closed beyond this point. Berms and rollers are fragile and need time to settle. Will be opened to bikes ASAP. Please help by volunteering to build sweet singletrack."

    Plus a spiderweb of caution tape woven across the trail.

    This is also private property. There are no rangers, and pursuing enforcement is a pain in the butt. We are three weeks away from opening this trail permanently, as long as we can keep people off it to get the berms and rollers rock solid.

    The issue here is one of mutual respect and poor judgement. Volunteers have been working on this trail since November. Everyone, even the local kids who push their dirt jumpers almost two miles to ride this trail got the message and stayed off the trail. Everyone, that is, except a cycling coach and his development riders. Pretty lame. Unbelievably selfish. Lousy example as a role model.

    Understand that this is California, not an area that gets year round rain. When it rains, we get mud. We have 300+ days a year of dry weather to ride. There is other singletrack to ride just a few feet away.

  42. #42
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    My contribution to this project is a dropin the bucket compared to many others, but I want to add my voice at a time when it could matter. So I just want to echo the wise peeps who have said this is a good (expensive, and that sucks, but good) opportunity to send the right message, and guilt and shame some people into becoming contributors and trail stewards.

    Retribution is kind of an empty/fleeting victory, and deterence is kind of a joke. This dude's behavior is ****ed, and should be thrown away, but if you keep the person, and keep the team, and keep the lesson, you get the most bang for your buck.

    To reiterate, dude, your behavior is ****ed. Fix that ****.
    Last edited by Snfoilhat; 04-06-2013 at 02:47 PM. Reason: Evading the cursing filter is maybe wrong?

  43. #43
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    You have the upper hand now! While the instant gratification is to blow this guy up publicly, use your position for a much better, long-term outcome!

    Example (written in my best Grand-pappy voice): When I was a kid, maybe 10 years old, the old man across the street was having a garage sale. Word quickly spread among the boys on our street that the old guy had boxes of Playboy's! We hatched our plan for swiping as many magazines as possible. I got caught red-handed. He was calm, cool and collected and sent me on my way, sans any 1970's smut. A couple hours later, my Mom beckons me to help her carry something she bought at the garage sale, back to our house. Oh no! I'm a sitting duck and I'm sure the old man is going to tell my Mom that I was stealing dirty magazines... my death is eminent! When he sees me, he say's "Ah, my best customer"... and winks at me. I'm about to die, but my Mom is oblivious. I help my Mom as quickly as possible, and escape the scene unscathed... but everytime that old guy asked me to help sweep his driveway or do some yardwork, I never said no. He played to my fears and got me to do yardwork, which I was happy to do, given the alternative. If he had outted me to my Mom that day, I probably would have egged his house for years afterward. Moral of the story: Turn a negative into a positive, if possible.

    Lastly, I can't believe it's hard to get volunteers to help build mtb specific trails in Marin. That is equally as shameful.

  44. #44
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    Empty-Beer, great story. We all enter into situations where we feel we could have reacted differently and achieved a better outcome. Some may give us instant gratification, but do little in the long run but to serve as reminders that even as adults, we all have room to grow sometimes. Already, some people clearly know who this person is, his actions already show he's busted as deleting the Strava record and Facebook account are desperate actions. So, in a way, he's already paying for his deed.

    I'm intrigued about what would motivate him, especially given his position as a role model, coach and leader, to do this - especially when he did it right in front of people, did it in a completely offensive and violating way and recorded it. Amazing. I'm certain for the 99% of everyone else, it's unthinkable to ride it.

    Pretty weird. It may even be reasonable to take it easy on this guy and show some compassion as for him to have done that is a pretty good indicator that some personal issues are at hand here. But at the same time, indicate that what he did is not acceptable.

  45. #45
    Dirty by Nature
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    There are poachers, and then there are damn poachers. Tearing up signs/tape, and trail is at least 2 strikes in my book. Using this as leverage to enlist him and his team to help finish out the project seems like a good penance.



    However, if you can prove (Strava?) that he's a repeat offender, then I echo the words of a wise judge: "Bailiff, whack his pee pee." And let him find somewhere else to ride.
    Last edited by dirtvert; 04-06-2013 at 03:36 PM.
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  46. #46
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    Yep. What we are all waiting for is for the coach to man up and take responsibility for being stupid, reinforce the value of mountain bike ethics and being good stewards, and make amends with trail work.

    "Name and shame" is a last resort. The last thing we want to do is humiliate a junior development team an entire team for the stupid actions of a few.

    That said, we're still waiting...

    (Deleting the Strava entry and hoping it goes away is probably not a good way to start. Anything posted on the internet lives forever. We took screen shots of course, this is 2013.)

  47. #47
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    Lets look at the positive here. Here's a case where Strava was actually helpful!

    Definitely try and turn this opportunity to get the poacher positively involved in the project. Even if initially by coercion...

    If he acts like a chump...then out him. Then public stoning.
    -eric-

    http://www.rumpfy.com
    Wanted: NDS Suntour XC Pro Microdrive 175mm Crank Arm.

  48. #48
    mtbr member
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    For those of you who don't know what we are working on- Here's a video the top 1/3 of the flow trail. The rider is one of the designers who poured months of muscle, love, sweat, (and blood) into making this trail.

    Tamarancho Flow trail - D.Ironshirt - Mountain Biking Videos - Vital MTB

    We packed as much trail as we could into a small area, there are twenty large (3-5' tall) bermed corners and countless rollers and bumps. Advanced and intermediate lines so all riders could have a great time. All lovingly hand shaped and compacted.

    (We allowed volunteers to take test rides when it was dry and compact).

  49. #49
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    only one person it could be... out em

  50. #50
    formerly uncle mama
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    Don't overdo this; it is easy to have this person represent all the other clowns you can't catch.

    Do something direct with that person through the team. The collective culture there has the greatest power, certainly more than you. Use that force to bring the person out to do some trailwork, maybe 3 4-hour sessions.

    If it is a kid, remember, they make mistakes. You may create a trail worker for life, and a friend.
    I'm with Mike on this one, don't over do it. You might just end up with mud on your face. Contacting the person and the team is a no brainer; yes the team should donate some time to repair/work on the trail. I suppose if the team doesn't respond...do what you gotta do.

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