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  1. #1
    I'm really diggin it!
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    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?

    I have tried to stay away from the negative after my first MTBR meltdown about the guys poaching and damaging a lot of the flow trail. Seems it was all well and good until this morning.

    I brought a reporter from Marin Magazine with me to the flow trail build and while I was explaining to him how simply wonderful the mountain bike community has been about helping and respecting the trail closure someone starts riding down the trail and ripping out all of the caution tape.

    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?-picard-facepalm-hotlink.jpg

    So I'm watching this dude and I recognize his kit. I let the whole thing slide because I'm guessing it wouldn't reflect too well on the MTB community if I brain someone with an 8 pound sledgehammer in front of a reporter for Marin Magazine. In fact I distract him from the whole thing and hope he didn't notice. "Oh look an owl!"

    It took about four of us to put all of the signs and tape back up and we all walked around on the soft stuff creating even more work. We probably could have finished a few projects but we didn't because of one guy. Volunteers have been sparse and the little help we have has been wasted on the negative.

    All of us don't get to ride the trail that much sooner because of this one guy. I'm more than a little upset and when I get home I wonder: "did that idiot Strava the whole episode?" YUP. He did. He vandalized the only flow trail project in the Bay Area and he uploaded it to Strava.

    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?-areyoukiddingmeblackss.png

    I'm still kind of in shock someone would be so stupid. But I saw the kit and the kit matches the name on Strava and he is the Team Director of the kit he was wearing.

    So what do I do now? You guys make the call.

  2. #2
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    Re: Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?

    Pee on his leg, its the only logical choice.

  3. #3
    rho
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    At the very least you could flag his ride on strava. It also sounds like the guy has an address you found from his team kit and so forth so you could send off a few nice letters to him and his teams sponsors explaining the situation....

  4. #4
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    what a weirdo, post his name up

  5. #5
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    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?

    Out him. Let society judge him for his crimes.


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  6. #6
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    Contact him personally and give him the opportunity to respond/repair. If not, then the team. Then finally, here if necessary.

    fc
    IPA will save America

  7. #7
    YOUREGO ISNOT YOURAMIGO
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    Out the Mo' FO'!!
    Let the people decide what to do with him. Court of peers.
    Once I find out who he is and who he rides for well lets just say...

    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?-crazy_little_man_001.jpeg

    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?-dsc00141.jpg

    Farkin Idjiot.
    Banned for showing Boobies.

  8. #8
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    name and shame

  9. #9
    It's about showing up.
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    It is just a few guys that give poachers a bad name.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?-firingsquad2.jpg  

    I don't rattle.

  10. #10
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    I hereby sentence this moron to 100 hours of trail work on the flow trail.

  11. #11
    I'm really diggin it!
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    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?

    Team has been contacted, they have until Monday morning to come up with a suitable apology. Most suitable: a day of trail work Tuesday before I get back to flying airplanes.

    The part that bothers me most about all this is that the teams mission involves being role models for young people and the teams behavior as a whole makes the mountain bike community look quite bad.

    What I feel my options are:

    Out him on the flow trail Facebook page: 1000 followers more than a few of them bike industry folks

    Out him on MTBR

    Inform the teams sponsors. One of the teams sponsors has donated money to the flow trail project.

    Research the Tamaracho pass holder database. No pass? Press charges for trespassing and destruction of property.

    Research the possibility for having the passes revoked for the entire team.

  12. #12
    It's about showing up.
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    Don't overdo this; it is easy to have this person represent all the other clowns you can't catch.

    Do something direct with that person through the team. The collective culture there has the greatest power, certainly more than you. Use that force to bring the person out to do some trailwork, maybe 3 4-hour sessions.

    If it is a kid, remember, they make mistakes. You may create a trail worker for life, and a friend.
    I don't rattle.

  13. #13
    Pirate!!!
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    All that fluffy reprimand stuff you are talking about sounds quite scary.. However, up here in the mountains we like to take things to a more personal level. I'm thinking you should hunt him down an string him up! Come on boys lets get em!

    (This is supposed to be funny)

  14. #14
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    Turn it into a positive. If it's a large team and you can educate him on the errors of his ways (rather than scolding him and making him defensive), you could get the whole team to volunteer and get the whole thing finished quicker than ever.
    功夫大师喜欢骑着他的自行车在山上。

  15. #15
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    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?

    Without giving it away the vandal is the MTB team rider director, according to the teams web page.

    The Team had recently been contacted regarding a high participation on Strava at the flow trail and a zero participation in the form of trail work. I can't detail this yet as it would out the team.

    I feel the intentional vandalism of a volunteer project was the response to a principal trail work volunteer contacting the team about participating.

    I'm considering the incident (vandalism) the teams response, until I hear from the team.

  16. #16
    Formerly dvo
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    Name and shame....why protect someone that has shown no regard for all your hard work?

  17. #17
    fc
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    Davey,

    You need to step away from the computer. You are mad right now and all of us will just egg you on to just lynch these guys. (and rightfully so)

    But it's always good to let things cool, let them respond properly, before going on the offensive and making life-long enemies. Only bad things can come out of this if you go on the attack.

    fc
    IPA will save America

  18. #18
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    There's only one person who rode that trail on April 5th according to Strava.... Just sayin'

  19. #19
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    I think it was Gandhi who said, "Reached back like a pimp and slapped the Ho." I think.

    I'm not sure outing him or fueling a payback is the best course of action...putting him on the defensive might lead to an escalation of bad Mojo and headaches for you. I'd take a Hostile Zen approach and make him feel like a doochebag through your calm demeanor and try to create a positive outcome. Ruining his name and dragging him through the mud is only going to create an enemy...sucks having enemies. Admittedly, would be fun to watch this play out, old west style.

    Q: Do you think he reads these forums and has already been "outed"?
    I'm not sure how this works.

  20. #20
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    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?

    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Davey,

    You need to step away from the computer. You are mad right now and all of us will just egg you on to just lynch these guys. (and rightfully so)

    But it's always good to let things cool, let them respond properly, before going on the offensive and making life-long enemies. Only bad things can come out of this if you go on the attack.

    fc
    Agreed. That is why I posted the thread. Thanks Francois. Let cooler heads prevail.

  21. #21
    I'm really diggin it!
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    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Katana View Post
    There's only one person who rode that trail on April 5th according to Strava.... Just sayin'
    The poach may have been deleted from Strava after I contacted the team. It was however screen captured and emailed to a lot of people including the team in question.

    Give them until Sunday to respond. Don't go all vigilante on someone who may not be involved that guy may have been doing trail work

    Until then these humorous videos perfectly summarize how I feel at the moment:

    http://youtu.be/l1Imv4Jcnwg

    http://youtu.be/2zUWXKThqHw

    http://youtu.be/PztgWdMEJdg

  22. #22
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    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?

    Stan's and feather him on opening day

  23. #23
    YOUREGO ISNOT YOURAMIGO
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Davey,

    You need to step away from the computer. You are mad right now and all of us will just egg you on to just lynch these guys. (and rightfully so)

    But it's always good to let things cool, let them respond properly, before going on the offensive and making life-long enemies. Only bad things can come out of this if you go on the attack.

    fc
    BS.
    Out that Mo Fo.
    Total disregard for the project = Max punishment.
    You need to see what the team says then act accordingly.
    We all worked too hard for one D-Bag (and his Team) to ruin it for the rest of us.
    And Francis, lynchings not good enough for this guy, dragging him down the trail a few times before, would be a good prelude to a lynching I think.

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    Banned for showing Boobies.

  24. #24
    I'm really diggin it!
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    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGordo View Post
    BS.
    Out that Mo Fo.
    Total disregard for the project = Max punishment.
    You need to see what the team says then act accordingly.
    We all worked too hard for one D-Bag (and his Team) to ruin it for the rest of us.
    And Francis, lynchings not good enough for this guy, dragging him down the trail a few times before, would be a good prelude to a lynching I think.

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    See Gordo spent a lot of his free time working hard with me and this is how he feels. I'd say this feeling escalates exponentially based on number of days at the trail...

    Anyway I've got some trail work to lead. See you guys this afternoon.

  25. #25
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    Whoa! Deleted his strava evidence! That doesn't seem like contrition. Thats downright evasion. Kind of disrespectful.

    But here I am egging you on. Shame on me.
    "Chancho. When you are a man sometimes you wear stretchy pants... Its for fun..."

  26. #26
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    Update:

    The "MTB Team Ride Director" deleted the STRAVA ride record and their Facebook account when called on it. We have the Strava screenshots.

    I think what's going to happen here is that they make amends through an apology and getting the team out for volunteer work, or we go public with the evidence.

    Over 2,000 hours of volunteer work have gone into this project. It really sucks for the volunteers who drive from 2 hours away to work on this project. It sucks that a junior development coach is fostering a culture of disrespect for the volunteers who are busting their butts to make mountain biking better.

    This person and their team has been taking hot lap after hot lap poaching the trail, but has been conspicuously absent in volunteer work. Stay tuned. This story is still developing...

  27. #27
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    Absolutely NO excuse for this!

    Utter bull$hit! This should NOT be handled with kid gloves. Be one thing if it was on regular trails and ribbons were up for "rain closure" or the like and pulled by hikers or the 4 leggers, but come on, friendly fire? Totally uncalled for.

    I commend Davey and Gordon for their restraint. Not just praising these 2 names, as I know there are countless others participating in the work, but they are the most vocal on the goings on with this "special project" with Jim Jacobsen. I'm sure alot of you commenting here that have/have not put in time they have to understand the displeasure they must be feeling. I know I would. I just hope it's not one the "team organizations" I'm thinking it is.
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  28. #28
    Paper or plastic?
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    Moral of the story: a dip$hit on a bike remains a dip$hit.
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  29. #29
    Like a boss.
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    Out him. I called out some reckless teenagers from AC a few years ago on MTBR and I don't regret it.
    Last edited by Piranha426; 04-06-2013 at 11:17 AM. Reason: assumed a gender when none was made clear
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    Are you a whiny Marin liberal, or a hand-wringing Berkeley liberal?

  30. #30
    Purveyor of Trail Tales!
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    Hi Folks,

    I just subscribed to see all the high drama in the Bay Area. It has all the elements of a great story.... heroic effort by a team of people to make a resource that will be a lasting contribution to all.... rogue team/individual flaunting disdain.....of course, since it's the Bay Area, Strava has to have a key role to play!

    Best Wishes to All for a Successful Outcome!

    Michael
    If you can't keep the rubber side down......at least smile for the camera!

  31. #31
    www.derbyrims.com
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    I've seen that same team director speeding, near the front of the large team, down near the bottom of Iron Springs road where the small neighborhood is. That's obviously very dangerous for residents or others driving up to their homes, and dangerous to the kids piling head-on through a windshield. The guy has no respect. I guess he's a volunteer for the team. If paid, he should be fired.

    Do the team members have passes? Do they support the trail or local BSA in anyway?

    I've been busy working long weeks this year, but have been able to put in a couple afternoons working on the flow trail, and previously worked many days building the original loop in the late '90's. It kills me to witness and see evidence of trail abuse.... Beginners skidding, taking short cuts, and other dis and mindless destruction of the trail.

  32. #32
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    My motorcycle club has a system for riding on closed trails.
    One warning with suspension. Second time you are caught, permanent ban.

    So the kid rips closure tapes and records the ride on Strava?
    Kid, you're not too bright. Maybe you should not be poaching trails.

    Best thing his coach could do is a team ride. Lock his bike to a tree and come back for him on the way home. Time outs work. Or a team fix the trail day.

  33. #33
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    KevXR. This was the COACH who listed the ride on Strava. The Strava record clearly shows this person riding the flow trail hours after the heaviest rain we've had over a month here in NorCal.

    FYI, I was one of the people who didn't ride my bike, and hiked in to spend the day doing trail work. Looks like I arrived at the work site a few minutes after it happened. I've put 30+ days into building this trail to a so that it would last for years and meet all environmental sustainability standards. I helped put the barriers up to close the trail during the storm. I personally saw the three sets of tire tracks, grooves in the soft, muddy soil, and skid marks.

  34. #34
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    banish the guy from riding in Tamarancho for a period of ?? months. if he is seen riding the park again, banish for life or press trespassing charges. if he is in the park after that, confiscate his bike and put it on craigslist.
    I bet you'd do the same if they was you!

  35. #35
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelsnead View Post
    Hi Folks,

    I just subscribed to see all the high drama in the Bay Area. It has all the elements of a great story.... heroic effort by a team of people to make a resource that will be a lasting contribution to all.... rogue team/individual flaunting disdain.....of course, since it's the Bay Area, Strava has to have a key role to play!

    Best Wishes to All for a Successful Outcome!

    Michael
    I posted just so I could subscribe and be notified of replies. This thread has all the keywords and the build-up. It's about to get real at the Flow Trail Parking Lot.

    fc
    IPA will save America

  36. #36
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    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?

    Why ***** foot around on this?

    The perpetrator is an adult. He knew what he was doing was blatantly wrong. He should deal with the consequences.
    Out him.
    Out the team that permits this behavior.
    Notify the team's sponsors to let them know what kind of people they are supporting.


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    Its all Shits and Giggles until somebody Giggles and Shits

  37. #37
    Oaktown Honkey on Strava
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    Maybe name the Flow Trail after him? Just kidding. This guy sounds like a real piece of work. Good people hardly ever win against selfish rule breakers. He needs to become part of the work crew, and publicly take some ribbing. I have only volunteered once for this so I don't mean to be too preachy. Light hearted public ribbing. But we all know you have to be vindictive to tear off that closure tape. Sick-O. Real Jerk! My name is Todd McMahon, and I call this guy out. ....And I will do another work day with the guy.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Moral of the story: a dip$hit on a bike remains a dip$hit.
    This.

    Kick his ass Sea Bass!!!

  39. #39
    NedwannaB
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    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    It's about to get real at the Flow Trail Parking Lot.

    fc
    As it should.
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  40. #40
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    Hey, just curious, is riding after a rain against the rules? You have proof, maybe report it to Park Rangers? If the guy is as big of a ****** as reported, do you think he really gives a phuck?

    What rules did he break, and is there room for enforcement?

  41. #41
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    No riding after a rain isn't against the rules. Riding a trail that is a) clearly signed as closed, b) soft, slick, muddy and under construction is a ******bag move.

    The signs they rode by and crossed under said:

    "Trail closed ahead. Trail work in progress. Please respect..."
    "STOP if you ride further, you will damage the trail."
    "Trail closed beyond this point. Berms and rollers are fragile and need time to settle. Will be opened to bikes ASAP. Please help by volunteering to build sweet singletrack."

    Plus a spiderweb of caution tape woven across the trail.

    This is also private property. There are no rangers, and pursuing enforcement is a pain in the butt. We are three weeks away from opening this trail permanently, as long as we can keep people off it to get the berms and rollers rock solid.

    The issue here is one of mutual respect and poor judgement. Volunteers have been working on this trail since November. Everyone, even the local kids who push their dirt jumpers almost two miles to ride this trail got the message and stayed off the trail. Everyone, that is, except a cycling coach and his development riders. Pretty lame. Unbelievably selfish. Lousy example as a role model.

    Understand that this is California, not an area that gets year round rain. When it rains, we get mud. We have 300+ days a year of dry weather to ride. There is other singletrack to ride just a few feet away.

  42. #42
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    My contribution to this project is a dropin the bucket compared to many others, but I want to add my voice at a time when it could matter. So I just want to echo the wise peeps who have said this is a good (expensive, and that sucks, but good) opportunity to send the right message, and guilt and shame some people into becoming contributors and trail stewards.

    Retribution is kind of an empty/fleeting victory, and deterence is kind of a joke. This dude's behavior is ****ed, and should be thrown away, but if you keep the person, and keep the team, and keep the lesson, you get the most bang for your buck.

    To reiterate, dude, your behavior is ****ed. Fix that ****.
    Last edited by Snfoilhat; 04-06-2013 at 02:47 PM. Reason: Evading the cursing filter is maybe wrong?

  43. #43
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    You have the upper hand now! While the instant gratification is to blow this guy up publicly, use your position for a much better, long-term outcome!

    Example (written in my best Grand-pappy voice): When I was a kid, maybe 10 years old, the old man across the street was having a garage sale. Word quickly spread among the boys on our street that the old guy had boxes of Playboy's! We hatched our plan for swiping as many magazines as possible. I got caught red-handed. He was calm, cool and collected and sent me on my way, sans any 1970's smut. A couple hours later, my Mom beckons me to help her carry something she bought at the garage sale, back to our house. Oh no! I'm a sitting duck and I'm sure the old man is going to tell my Mom that I was stealing dirty magazines... my death is eminent! When he sees me, he say's "Ah, my best customer"... and winks at me. I'm about to die, but my Mom is oblivious. I help my Mom as quickly as possible, and escape the scene unscathed... but everytime that old guy asked me to help sweep his driveway or do some yardwork, I never said no. He played to my fears and got me to do yardwork, which I was happy to do, given the alternative. If he had outted me to my Mom that day, I probably would have egged his house for years afterward. Moral of the story: Turn a negative into a positive, if possible.

    Lastly, I can't believe it's hard to get volunteers to help build mtb specific trails in Marin. That is equally as shameful.

  44. #44
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    Empty-Beer, great story. We all enter into situations where we feel we could have reacted differently and achieved a better outcome. Some may give us instant gratification, but do little in the long run but to serve as reminders that even as adults, we all have room to grow sometimes. Already, some people clearly know who this person is, his actions already show he's busted as deleting the Strava record and Facebook account are desperate actions. So, in a way, he's already paying for his deed.

    I'm intrigued about what would motivate him, especially given his position as a role model, coach and leader, to do this - especially when he did it right in front of people, did it in a completely offensive and violating way and recorded it. Amazing. I'm certain for the 99% of everyone else, it's unthinkable to ride it.

    Pretty weird. It may even be reasonable to take it easy on this guy and show some compassion as for him to have done that is a pretty good indicator that some personal issues are at hand here. But at the same time, indicate that what he did is not acceptable.

  45. #45
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    There are poachers, and then there are damn poachers. Tearing up signs/tape, and trail is at least 2 strikes in my book. Using this as leverage to enlist him and his team to help finish out the project seems like a good penance.



    However, if you can prove (Strava?) that he's a repeat offender, then I echo the words of a wise judge: "Bailiff, whack his pee pee." And let him find somewhere else to ride.
    Last edited by dirtvert; 04-06-2013 at 03:36 PM.
    Friends don't let friends ride e-"bikes" on dirt.

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  46. #46
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    Yep. What we are all waiting for is for the coach to man up and take responsibility for being stupid, reinforce the value of mountain bike ethics and being good stewards, and make amends with trail work.

    "Name and shame" is a last resort. The last thing we want to do is humiliate a junior development team an entire team for the stupid actions of a few.

    That said, we're still waiting...

    (Deleting the Strava entry and hoping it goes away is probably not a good way to start. Anything posted on the internet lives forever. We took screen shots of course, this is 2013.)

  47. #47
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    Lets look at the positive here. Here's a case where Strava was actually helpful!

    Definitely try and turn this opportunity to get the poacher positively involved in the project. Even if initially by coercion...

    If he acts like a chump...then out him. Then public stoning.
    -eric-

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  48. #48
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    For those of you who don't know what we are working on- Here's a video the top 1/3 of the flow trail. The rider is one of the designers who poured months of muscle, love, sweat, (and blood) into making this trail.

    Tamarancho Flow trail - D.Ironshirt - Mountain Biking Videos - Vital MTB

    We packed as much trail as we could into a small area, there are twenty large (3-5' tall) bermed corners and countless rollers and bumps. Advanced and intermediate lines so all riders could have a great time. All lovingly hand shaped and compacted.

    (We allowed volunteers to take test rides when it was dry and compact).

  49. #49
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    only one person it could be... out em

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    Don't overdo this; it is easy to have this person represent all the other clowns you can't catch.

    Do something direct with that person through the team. The collective culture there has the greatest power, certainly more than you. Use that force to bring the person out to do some trailwork, maybe 3 4-hour sessions.

    If it is a kid, remember, they make mistakes. You may create a trail worker for life, and a friend.
    I'm with Mike on this one, don't over do it. You might just end up with mud on your face. Contacting the person and the team is a no brainer; yes the team should donate some time to repair/work on the trail. I suppose if the team doesn't respond...do what you gotta do.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by leaguerider View Post
    name and shame
    +1000

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by highsierrabear View Post
    No riding after a rain isn't against the rules. Riding a trail that is a) clearly signed as closed, b) soft, slick, muddy and under construction is a ******bag move..
    Totally get that. Also get this is your blood sweat and tears.


    Quote Originally Posted by highsierrabear View Post
    The signs they rode by and crossed under said:

    "Trail closed ahead. Trail work in progress. Please respect..."
    "STOP if you ride further, you will damage the trail."
    "Trail closed beyond this point. Berms and rollers are fragile and need time to settle. Will be opened to bikes ASAP. Please help by volunteering to build sweet singletrack."

    Plus a spiderweb of caution tape woven across the trail.
    There is no doubt, the guy is an Adam Henry.

    Quote Originally Posted by highsierrabear View Post
    This is also private property. There are no rangers, and pursuing enforcement is a pain in the butt. We are three weeks away from opening this trail permanently, as long as we can keep people off it to get the berms and rollers rock solid..
    If this is private property, would the property owner be willing to pursue tresspassing against this individual and/or the team?

    Quote Originally Posted by highsierrabear View Post
    The issue here is one of mutual respect and poor judgement. Volunteers have been working on this trail since November. Everyone, even the local kids who push their dirt jumpers almost two miles to ride this trail got the message and stayed off the trail. Everyone, that is, except a cycling coach and his development riders. Pretty lame. Unbelievably selfish. Lousy example as a role model.
    Your on target with all of the above statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by highsierrabear View Post
    Understand that this is California, not an area that gets year round rain. When it rains, we get mud. We have 300+ days a year of dry weather to ride. There is other singletrack to ride just a few feet away.
    Yeah, this individual is an Adam Henry. There are a lot of them in this world. Considering the "poached trail" given the circumstances, past examples others have stated, and the actions of deleting strava, it doesn'tsound as though he is interested in doing the right thing. If it's private property, have him banned. If it's not, and he didn't break any rules, (sh)name him.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtb-ripper View Post
    only one person it could be... out em
    No don't out them.
    Make them pay in blood, sweat, and tears like the rest of us Dave.
    Work em.
    Behind the scenes.
    Where it really counts.
    You can do all the talkin' you want, but until you've moved dirt, wood, and rocks, for hours on end, you'll never know how much this trail means.
    I have done all sorts of manual labor and not much has kicked my ass like this trail.
    You put in 20-30 hours and see how you feel after seeing the work you've done go to shite after someone rides it before it's ready, and then you have to redo it all over.
    Nothing hurts more than seeing the work that has been done by selfless volunteer's, for hours on end, ruined by one Strava run.
    This guy needs to move the earth around for a few hours then watch someone fark it up before it's really ready to ride.
    Then he will know the true meaning of sweat equity.
    I have only ridden the top part twice and have never ridden the bottom part because,....IT"S NOT DONE YET FOOL'S!!!
    Find him.
    Make him Pay.
    Make him buy beers.

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  54. #54
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    Come on Gordon, don't pull any punches! Tell it like it is!
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  55. #55
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    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?

    Out him, bust him, ban him. He knew what he was doing, and knew it was wrong. Show the kids he is a role model for, what happens when you deliberately break the rules. This was not an accident, it was a choice. He needs to be responsible and let the kids see that if you make bad choices that there are repercussions
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  56. #56
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    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?

    I just want to say it was not the Whole Athlete team. I am a good friend of Dario and and Matt they would never do anything along these lines.

    The team has not responded.

    The teams profesional cyclist mentor has responded and he does not seem pleased.

    I will keep you all posted.

  57. #57
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    This is the internet, I feel like a troll, I haven't ridden w/ Chum in awhile so I am missing blood. This roman, in the coliseum of the internet, is showing his thumb facing down!

    I'm easily bribed with beer of course. (consider this my subscription post)

  58. #58
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    Ugh, I feel so bad for you guys. What kind of sociopathic creep tears down caution tape and doesn't think the rules apply to him? But like the others said, this could be a win in the long run if you play it cool. Even getting us chattering about it will help.

  59. #59
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    Whenever he walks into the room or is seen at a trailhead:

    http://i.imgur.com/e56a3.gif

  60. #60
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    Does Mr Ed have an alibi? . Those wacky equines and their enablers.

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  61. #61
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    Hoping this at least turns into a few extra volunteers coming out to help finish the trail The rain couldn't have come at a better time so hoping that the pro cycling mentor "recommends", (i.e. brow beats) the team to contribute some work to the trail.

  62. #62
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    Live and let live. When you say vandal I think someone grabbed a pick n shovel and went to town on all the features. The guy rode the trail when he shouldn't have. Looking at some of our local envirotards in Marin, if the worst you have to deal with is the occasional poacher, I think you're doing pretty good. It's unfortunate, but I think we can all say its not unexpected. I just don't see any upside to airing this out on a public forum.

  63. #63
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    Having been on the other end of a team being "outed" for possibly scandalous behavior on MTBR. I'd recommend not outing, even tho it's such a juicy time.

    The damage will go beyond the individual, the damage will spread to the innocent team members and negatively reflect on the sponsors - who are sponsoring for positive reinforcement. Then there is the effect on the team.

    In our case, it folded up our team.

    The main shop sponsor has no more interest in a team. Through all the drama, they lost long-time customers and friends, and they were just wanting to participate in the culture.

    I like the idea of having the team handle it - with a back threat of going public, so they can see the depth of the issue and respond accordingly. That gives the team the option to become better participants in the community. If they choose to do nothing... well, then it was their choice to reap the harshness that MTBR can bestow.

    Thanks for keeping a clear head and asking before going nuclear. Rep nuggets for you.

    P


  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haus Boss View Post
    Live and let live. When you say vandal I think someone grabbed a pick n shovel and went to town on all the features. The guy rode the trail when he shouldn't have. Looking at some of our local envirotards in Marin, if the worst you have to deal with is the occasional poacher, I think you're doing pretty good. It's unfortunate, but I think we can all say its not unexpected. I just don't see any upside to airing this out on a public forum.
    With soft dirt on a berm, the effect can be similar to a pick and shovel. Of course... this depends on the amount of traffic it'll see... but in terms of damage to trail features.... It will start impacting things quickly.

  65. #65
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    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haus Boss View Post
    Live and let live. When you say vandal I think someone grabbed a pick n shovel and went to town on all the features. The guy rode the trail when he shouldn't have. Looking at some of our local envirotards in Marin, if the worst you have to deal with is the occasional poacher, I think you're doing pretty good. It's unfortunate, but I think we can all say its not unexpected. I just don't see any upside to airing this out on a public forum.
    I see what you mean. It was just that they pulled the signs down, left them in the mud. Ripped the tape off the trees and pulled stakes out of the ground. It took four of us quite a long time to put it all back, time better spent on trail building. That is what I consider vandalism. If they put all the tape back up I wouldn't have posted this.

    My most valuable contribution to the build wasn't any trail building skill (I don't have much) it was bringing volunteers on to do backbreaking work. It really bums me out to see them upset at the behavior of the vandals. They feel disrespected and then they don't come back. Since I have become a leader I feel obligated to show every day I can. It has been exhausting and I feel disrespected too.

    Also the vandals mentor kids and I feel like this is the worst part about the entire incident. It wasn't a kid it was a group of wannabe pro racers who are bringing up a group of young junior racers. They are mentors and I am of the opinion that they shouldn't be.

    I feel partially responsible to expose these fakes for who they really are. To keep them away from impressionable youth and ensure they don't raise another batch of vandals that put zero effort into community projects like the flow trail.

    I'm not outing for now but I'd really like to hear what the vandals have to say for themselves.

    So far it is being handled internally. One of my good high school friends is a road coach on the team and I have been communicating with him. The pro rider mentor and I used to race together so we have been talking as well. It isn't the entire team there are good people on the team.

  66. #66
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    I understand the passion and effort of the volunteers and how truly lame it is for this jacknoid to ride the trail at this point especially busting through caution tape..wtf?

    But have the balls to deal with it privately, this public stoning is bull crap....it will come out eventually anyway.

    Bunch of schadenfreude-ites...

  67. #67
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    The thing that is interesting to me is the removal of the signs, it was not enough for the person to take down the tape to just ride themselves but felt that it was their right to remove the signs as well.

    This is why we cannot have nice things (with ease at least).

    Very sad really.

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  68. #68
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    Was this the team and was that the coach?

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    Seriously, what kind of d-bag does it take to tear down barriers and signs?

    Davey, I think you've already taken the proper steps to get this resolved. You've spoken to the appropriate people, and are in communication with them now, so I think asking for an apology is more than appropriate, but it doesn't need to be escalated any more than that. I think if they are a responsible organization, they will deal with it. Is it your/our job to be judge, jury, and executioner? If there are good people on the team, it would also be unfair if his solo actions ultimately results in the downfall of the team. Again, I think that's for them to deal with it, and I hope they work with you to make things right.

    As others have said above, I think we can turn this into a positive and rally even more support from the community. Don't let these Cobra Kai m-f'ers get you down!

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post

    I'm not outing for now but...
    I don't see why you didn't just get the guy charged for trespassing and vandalism, and leave the whole team and name-and-shame-game out of it. (analogy would be surgical strike vs cluster bombing)

    Do you think anybody is going to be shamed or peer-pressured into working on the trail under these circumstances? (This is an honest question and not a troll, in case you didn't know)

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    I don't see why you didn't just get the guy charged for trespassing and vandalism, and leave the whole team and name-and-shame-game out of it. (analogy would be surgical strike vs cluster bombing)

    Do you think anybody is going to be shamed or peer-pressured into working on the trail under these circumstances? (This is an honest question and not a troll, in case you didn't know)
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    I don't think these people will be shamed into doing work of any kind. I want to clarify one thing. When I saw the rider who was tearing down the tape he was with two women. I was pretty far away so it was impossible to tell who but there was something eerily familiar about the whole thing. It wasn't just one guy.

    When I came back to town I always stop in at one of the local bike shops. They are my friends and sometimes we will share a beer and talk about the day. Of course I had brought up the group that ripped down the signs. The next day when I found out who had done the deed I stopped by the shop and updated a few of the guys. They had seen the group and they knew all of the riders involved. I'm friends with the girls at the java hut and it was the same story. Same names when the question was asked independently.

    So why bring up all this background information? This was a junior teams coaching staff. Including the founder. She is well known in the community. She sells herself as bike advocate. She sells herself as a mentor for girls. She parades around town as the next best thing since sliced bread but in reality leaves a trail of destruction.

    These coaches showed their true colors. I've caught them out and now they are stonewalling me. They are doing that purely to be disrespectful. They don't care what I think or what you think because to them people like you and I don't matter. They think they are better than all of us.

    So that is my long answer to your question. I've found the cancer in our community and now it is time to "nuke the site from orbit, just to be sure."

  71. #71
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    Hey Davey

    Good Job. Do the right thing and out them publicly (if they stonewall you any further). Although I have a feeling that your post will be removed if you put their names on MTBR. Don't hold back. If they get away clean they will continue to believe they are above reproach.

  72. #72
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    wow complete idiots if they don't quickly jump at the chance to put this to rest, i'm sure an apology would go a long ways

  73. #73
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    I think most of us know that as amazing as Marin and the surrounding communities are, there are also a high percentage off ass-hats out there. Unfortunately some of the offenders are mountain bikers. Funny thing about being a tool, it crosses all demographics and activities. Hopefully there is some kind of resolution but my guess is the offenders will continue to offend and any effort to "out" them will only bring a smile to their faces because as Davey pointed out,"they don't care what anyone thinks".

    I am in favor of a full scale outing and community shaming simply because I don't think anything else will have any impact. And if the team disbands because of it I think that is spectacular. Better no team than a team learning by the hands of these fools!
    "It's just that nobody likes Cornfish." francois

  74. #74
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    The HOHAs must be having a field day reading this thread right now. I can see the rhetoric from a mile away. Cyclists don't respect a mountain biking trail, so how can we trust them to respect anything else? We all know it's a reductio ad absurdum argument, but that never stopped the Marin loons before.
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  75. #75
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    I would not out the team or do anything that might risk the sponsors that support them.

    The perpetrators on the other hand, should be exposed. They should be exposed to their leadership, the sponsors and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Their actions were fully and completely understood and premeditated, and they should be held accountable.

    What a couple of self righteous a holes. It makes me wonder what other life lessons and perspectives they're passing on to the kids. The jerks should be taught a lesson and only if they learn it, and prove they learned it and can teach it, should they be allowed to continue coaching.

  76. #76
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    Caught the Flow Trail Vandal - what do I do now?

    Quote Originally Posted by JFR View Post
    What a couple of self righteous a holes. It makes me wonder what other life lessons and perspectives they're passing on to the kids. The jerks should be taught a lesson and only if they learn it, and prove they learned it and can teach it, should they be allowed to continue coaching.

    From Davey Simon's last post, I don't think that is going to happen. These people should not be influencing young riders. They need to be removed from that position.
    Furthermore, I don't want people like this working as advocates for the MTB community. Quite honestly, their actions disqualify them for speaking up on our behalf. Just like Mike V. can be easily countered by bringing up his legal issues, this supposed trail advocate can now be countered by her actions.
    If you are going to be an advocate, your actions must be above reproach and you must be held accountable for your actions.



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  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by tburger View Post
    Was this the team and was that the coach?

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    Don't let these Cobra Kai m-f'ers get you down!
    Davey needs to go crane kick on these MFers. Total lack of respect.

  78. #78
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    I am an admitted and known trail poacher. My hands are far from clean in many peoples eyes. There are right ways and reasons of poaching and wrong. For instance, I don't poach at Annadel because I know first hand what the hard work of the staff there have produced and I'm not going to be the one that shits on that.

    There is a big difference in my opinion, though, between what I do as a trail terrorist and what Davey is dealing with. This is the selfish and entitled of the bay crapping all over the hard work of others in the comunity that are giving birth to something good. They contribute nothing but take what they like and they are the primary users of these resources.

    Nothing less than a formal appology and a team work day this upcoming weekend is acceptable.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    The HOHAs must be having a field day reading this thread right now. I can see the rhetoric from a mile away. Cyclists don't respect a mountain biking trail, so how can we trust them to respect anything else? We all know it's a reductio ad absurdum argument, but that never stopped the Marin loons before.
    I think you nailed it here. This is going to bite us again with the HOHAS.

    I see the flow trail incident more like ignoring "keep off the wet cement" signs. The trail is in the construction process.

  80. #80
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    Sneaking around the tape and poaching a closed trail= biking misdemeanor

    Tearing down signs and tape= biking felony
    Consciousness, that annoying time between bike rides.

  81. #81
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    1) contact 'em, give him/her a chance to defend their actions...
    2) contact team/sponsors
    3) post info on here. jury of peers...

    just my $.02

  82. #82
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    I wonder what happens when you build an awesome trail, post about it 20 times a day on the most popular MTB forum, make a facebook and website for it, maps and all, and generally hype it to every rider in a 200 mile radius... welp, lesson learned. The trail is going to get absolutely annihilated by teenagers this summer, one guy riding it on a damp day is the least of your concerns. Not trying to knock the builders or be a negative nancy, this is just reality. I've seen the same thing happen to extremely difficult trails NOBODY told ANYONE about. This is a beginner trail everyone knows about, unless there is a full time staff there all summer it will be ripped to shreds far faster than it can be maintained.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhite415 View Post
    I wonder what happens when you build an awesome trail, post about it 20 times a day on the most popular MTB forum, make a facebook and website for it, maps and all, and generally hype it to every rider in a 200 mile radius... welp, lesson learned. The trail is going to get absolutely annihilated by teenagers this summer, one guy riding it on a damp day is the least of your concerns. Not trying to knock the builders or be a negative nancy, this is just reality. I've seen the same thing happen to extremely difficult trails NOBODY told ANYONE about. This is a beginner trail everyone knows about, unless there is a full time staff there all summer it will be ripped to shreds far faster than it can be maintained.
    This is probably the lamest post I've ever read. Following your reasoning, nobody should ever attempt to to anything because there is a chance that somebody else might screw it up. You must be a lot of fun to hang out with:

    "Hey, want to go out and have a good time and grab a beer?"
    "No, some teenager will probably ruin my night by peeing in my beer or something so I'll just stay home and stare at the wall. Nobody can ruin that for me."

    Out of curiosity, are you a Nihilist? Cause at least that's an ethos.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhite415 View Post
    I wonder what happens when you build an awesome trail, post about it 20 times a day on the most popular MTB forum, make a facebook and website for it, maps and all, and generally hype it to every rider in a 200 mile radius... welp, lesson learned. The trail is going to get absolutely annihilated by teenagers this summer, one guy riding it on a damp day is the least of your concerns. Not trying to knock the builders or be a negative nancy, this is just reality. I've seen the same thing happen to extremely difficult trails NOBODY told ANYONE about. This is a beginner trail everyone knows about, unless there is a full time staff there all summer it will be ripped to shreds far faster than it can be maintained.
    What... are you saying the banks deserve to be robbed, because it's so tempting with those mountains of cash? Puh-lleeze. The *****bhagger tore down signs and caution tape. That is far beyond taking a spin on an off-limits trail undetected.

    No, I say out the rider, and anybody else who was involved. Out the team if they stonewall you.

    Screw 'em.

  85. #85
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    I'm done talking about this.
    I know Dave will handle this appropriately.
    Please don't ride the trail until it's done.
    Especially after it rains.
    Please tell your friends.
    Thank you Jim
    Thank you Dave
    Thank you anyone who has participated thus far.
    I hope to be part of MANY more trails like this in the Bay Area.
    Git Yer Flow On.
    GoGo

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  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyno View Post
    are you a Nihilist?
    No, I'm someone who has built trails

    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    What... are you saying the banks deserve to be robbed, because it's so tempting with those mountains of cash?
    Nobody deserves anything, but advertising your work and expecting everyone to respect it is naive. What world do you live in where everyone is respectful and understanding of others work/effort?

    If you don't want people riding on your trails build them on private property. If you build a trail on openly accessible/public property and get emotional when you see tire tracks on it, caution tape or not, you are introducing a lot of stress into your life. Again, just a reality check from someone who has seen it happen many times. At least they aren't tractor tracks.



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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhite415 View Post
    No, I'm someone who has built trails


    Nobody deserves anything, but advertising your work and expecting everyone to respect it is naive. What world do you live in where everyone is respectful and understanding of others work/effort?

    If you don't want people riding on your trails build them on private property. If you build a trail on openly accessible/public property and get emotional when you see tire tracks on it, caution tape or not, you are introducing a lot of stress into your life. Again, just a reality check from someone who has seen it happen many times. At least they aren't tractor tracks.
    It appears that you don't know much, if anything, about this trail or the situation here. This is a sanctioned trail, built on private land with the knowledge, permission, and oversight of the landowner. The land is owned by the Boy Scouts, and has been open to, and more or less dedicated to mountain bike use, for well over a decade and this flow trail is the first major new trail construction there in years. Furthermore, it is located in the "birthplace" of mountain biking which also happens to have a dearth of decent legal singletrack and a vocal, wealthy, and very active anti-bike lobby, thus not only is this project very visible and well-known among riders in the Bay Area, it is also highly anticipated. Due to it's length, it's features, and both the landowner and trail builder's concern that it be built sustainably so that it will last, it takes money, time and a lot of work hours, both of which are supplied primarily through volunteer labor and the financial donations of area riders. Without the regional support and help of the MTB community, this trail would not be built... This is not a renegade, "secret," or private trail and those that willfully -and blatantly- rip down the signs and closure tape to ride it when it is unfinished and not yet ready for the impacts of use, are undoing the many hours of work of the volunteers and trail designers -as well as delaying its completion- for their selfish, self-centered pleasure.
    Last edited by huntermos; 04-08-2013 at 12:41 AM.

  88. #88
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    While GreatWhite41's thinking makes sense on its own, I don't think it applicable here.

    For many of us this is just a WTF moment:

    A rider within an organization, focused on the development of cycling skills at a high level with noble aspirations, chooses to be discourteous to his fellows in the mtb community, their work, and their passion in service of the benefit of all. Public info documenting this violation is being excised.

    I have experienced things like this with other "teams" and their sponsors and it generally works out. It is only Monday morning. Let's see what happens.
    I don't rattle.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    While GreatWhite41's thinking makes sense on its own, I don't think it applicable here.

    For many of us this is just a WTF moment:

    A rider within an organization, focused on the development of cycling skills at a high level with noble aspirations, chooses to be discourteous to his fellows in the mtb community, their work, and their passion in service of the benefit of all. Public info documenting this violation is being excised.

    it generally works out. It is only Monday morning. Let's see what happens.
    Exactly.
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  90. #90
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    ^^^ BerkeleyMike...... "discourteous"? come on now. way too gentle a description of the behavior this dude exhibited. let's try "destructive", "disrespectful" AND "borderline criminal".
    I bet you'd do the same if they was you!

  91. #91
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    Hey Berkeley Mike, Your point is what bother's me about the club/team attitude. alot of times the coaches and organizers of these groups take advantage of their status to do anything they want without any accountability. Remember Jerry Sandusky. yea i know, it's a pretty extreme situation, but he was protected by his noble aspirations, which allowed him to carry on long after he should have been stopped.

    This situation in Tamarancho reminds me of something that happened to a trail project in my area. Someone used their lofty position to finagle money from a trail project. When we tried to hold the person accountable, the local bike club, who were partner's in the project, would not support us because they felt the noble aspirations of this person over rides anything they did that was questionable. Then all of a sudden we, the trail builders, were made to look bad because we wanted accountability, and the funds returned to this new trail for our community.

    I was out on the trail the other day working 2 days after a very wet rain, the trail is posted closed, under construction. All of a sudden here comes a rider down the trail. When I asked him to please respect our closure signs, He says to me " oh it's fine to ride on, there's no wet spots" really? most of the time when I'm working, people at least say thanks, this guy never said anything, and I have never seen him out there working on the trail. It's moments like this that make me question what I am doing out there because I think to myself, am I out here giving my time and effort so people like this have a new trail to ride? He blew me off like I was some worthless annoyance.

    To all you entitled elitist trail riders who never do any trail work, here is some advice, don't diss the people who are building new trails for you to ride on. Big them up and when they tell you to stay off, DO IT. Otherwise, it starts to bend our perception of mountain bikers, and instead of taking a day off from riding to do trail work i'll go ride like the rest of you.

    Take a long look in the mirror. Figure out who and what you really are, It's never too late to find your faults and figure out how to modify your behavior.
    Last edited by mossterioso; 04-09-2013 at 03:43 AM.

  92. #92
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  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhite415 View Post
    No, I'm someone who has built trails


    Nobody deserves anything, but advertising your work and expecting everyone to respect it is naive. What world do you live in where everyone is respectful and understanding of others work/effort?

    If you don't want people riding on your trails build them on private property. If you build a trail on openly accessible/public property and get emotional when you see tire tracks on it, caution tape or not, you are introducing a lot of stress into your life. Again, just a reality check from someone who has seen it happen many times. At least they aren't tractor tracks.


    I'm still not buying it. I don't buy into this whole 'blame the victim' mindset.

    Part of the reason (I think) they are 'advertising' the flow trail is that they are also trying to get volunteers involved with building it. It take a crapload of (wo)man hours to do a project like this. Kinda hard to do if you keep it a secret.

    What the poacher did was fully, selfishly, trashing somebody else's work with zero regard for anybody else, and huge disrespect to the community. Talk about sshitting in the nest. It was a really crappy thing to do, and IMO the rider should be banned, and have his bike chained to a tree for a month.

    Geez, we shouldn't have to resort to this, but it looks like we need to get our hands on like 50 of those construction barricades with the blinking lights on top, and place them all the way down the trail at 10' intervals, making the trail useless to ride until removed. ... Saying "No, really... don't ride this... we aren't F'ing around here!!"

  94. #94
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    Heres a few solid options, i think one of the following should be done ASAP.

    1. stone him to death

    2. set him on fire/at the stake

    3. sew him in the belly of a dead/rotting cow with his head poking out so you can force feed him and wait for the maggots to eat through his flesh.

    4. crucify him

    5. pour molten hot lead into his eye sockets

    6. boil him alive until his skin flakes off the bone

    7, fill a cardboard box full of sewer rats on his stomach and hold a blow torch to them so they eat through his stomach.

    8. impale him

    9. death of 1000 cuts.

    10. tie him between two tractors and pull his limbs off..


    Any one of the above should do the trick.
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  95. #95
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    You shall be prescribed 20 hours of anger management

    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    Heres a few solid options, i think one of the following should be done ASAP.

    1. stone him to death

    2. set him on fire/at the stake

    3. sew him in the belly of a dead/rotting cow with his head poking out so you can force feed him and wait for the maggots to eat through his flesh.

    4. crucify him

    5. pour molten hot lead into his eye sockets

    6. boil him alive until his skin flakes off the bone

    7, fill a cardboard box full of sewer rats on his stomach and hold a blow torch to them so they eat through his stomach.

    8. impale him

    9. death of 1000 cuts.

    10. tie him between two tractors and pull his limbs off..


    Any one of the above should do the trick.
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  96. #96
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    So....who was it? This isn't just some trail poacher riding a hiking trail that should be open to bikes. They tore down signs and left them in the mud. Name and shame; it's the only way to deal with the bay area elitist aholes that are bringing down our sport.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    You shall be prescribed 20 hours of anger management
    No, 20 hrs of climbing hills, without the pleasure of going down each time.
    Lead by my Lefty............... right down the trail, no brakes.

  98. #98
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    I'm with Pimpbot on the "blame the victim" mindset. That is like blaming a woman for the rape she suffers because of her choice of clothing.

    I agree with mossterioso on the "Noble aspiration" thing. Noble aspiration does not eliminate or justify criminal intent. Someone who is in the position the suspect is said to be working in should be held to a higher standard. He is supposed to be an example to the cycling team, other riders, and the general public. Not only did he let himself down being a jerk and doing something completely based on selfishness, he let down his team and all cyclists with his actions. Mountain bikers have a hard enough time with PR and image without something like this happening, especially in an area that is a hotbed of disagreement on trail access.

    So far I have seen none of the devil's advocates in this thread give testimony that supports the idea that what the guy did was okay or justified. So far I have seen no testimony that supports doing anything but outing this guy publicly.
    "You're messing with my zen thing, man!"

  99. #99
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    Well, ****.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by beaverbiker View Post
    So....who was it? This isn't just some trail poacher riding a hiking trail that should be open to bikes. They tore down signs and left them in the mud. Name and shame; it's the only way to deal with the bay area elitist aholes that are bringing down our sport.
    yah - that really is pretty bad.

    Francois is right (as with others) - give them a chance to 'fix' the situation quietly. If they choose to ignore....out'em.

    I don't see a real rush to post names,etc....you have all their info currently, nothings going to change that. And waiting a short time will not 'lessen' the impact.

    my .02
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