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  1. #1
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    BTCEB - What's the deal?

    I've been a little down in the dumps about the woeful state of legal east bay riding lately...

    Which brought me to wonder what the heck BTCEB actually does these days. I used to read updates about their advocacy efforts here on the Norcal Board, now crickets. I sure don't see the effects of said efforts.

    From my perspective, and from looking at their meetup, it seems like all they do these days is host group rides (almost all of which are NOT on trails in the east bay, a bad sign). There's a couple trail work days here and there in the Oakland area. Mostly JMP and Chabot, the lowest hanging fruit possible for a Berkeley-based organization. I know they point to Crockett as a sign of their advocacy work.. but that's kinda laughable given that it's always in terrible shape and most riders avoid it now.

    I don't want to funnel all my ire about the flawed east bay off road cycling scene into the BTCEB, but they're the only show in town.

    I'd love for someone to prove me wrong, fill me in on real wins they've accomplished recently, what is in the pipeline for them, and why I should bother becoming a member.
    East Bay Parks AKA East Bay Cattle Ranches

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    Stop bitching about it and do something. Show up today at Z Cafe in Oakland at 6:30pm. Your concerns will be addressed.

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    Access isn't their mission.

    Their stated mission says nothing about opening new trails... it's all about 'coexisting' along with 'courtesy and caution'.

    It doesn't appear that they have any interest in creating additional access to the massive lands that EB Parks manages. Such a shame.


    Our mission is to educate cyclists in responsible mountain biking, to advocate for appropriate access and to promote community among trail users so all may fully enjoy and preserve the natural spaces of the East Bay.

    We envision a united trails community where mountain bikers, equestrians and hikers happily coexist on trails, both narrow and wide, extending each other due courtesy and caution, in open spaces, everywhere.


    https://www.bicycletrailscouncil.org/about-us
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrungLam View Post
    Stop bitching about it and do something. Show up today at Z Cafe in Oakland at 6:30pm. Your concerns will be addressed.
    Since you don't have a real answer to anything I've posted aside from "come to this circle-jerk meeting" it confirms, you don't do $hit.
    East Bay Parks AKA East Bay Cattle Ranches

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_510 View Post
    Since you don't have a real answer to anything I've posted aside from "come to this circle-jerk meeting" it confirms, you don't do $hit.
    Wait, what? Mr TrungLam posted a clear headed and welcoming response! Why wouldn't you want to go after reading such an invitation to take part in a welcoming community?
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    It sounds like the East Bay sucks as much as Marin...you might want to look into this...

    SVMTB Sanborn County Bike Park Proposal to Santa Clara County

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    Quote Originally Posted by griz View Post
    It sounds like the East Bay sucks as much as Marin...you might want to look into this...

    SVMTB Sanborn County Bike Park Proposal to Santa Clara County
    But EB has sucked WAAAAY longer

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrungLam View Post
    Stop bitching about it and do something. Show up today at Z Cafe in Oakland at 6:30pm. Your concerns will be addressed.
    50$ says if he asks this question at said meeting he'll be told to stop bitching.

  9. #9
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    The BTCEB started to prevent the East Bay Parks district from closing all of their parks to mountain bikers,that was 30 years ago. The club also helped prevent JM from being closed.I know what have they done lately?The reroutes at JM ,while not what a lot of mountain bikers wanted ,JM isn't a bike park ,it's a city park.The city of Oakland has given the club permission to go into JM and do what it thinks is necessary to keep the park safe. The club helped with some opening of single track at Pleasanton Ridge. The club is working on an agreement to become a trail crew at one of the local parks ,with the ability to go in and do work without the supervision of park staff. The club is also working with the mangers at John Muir Land trust to get more trails opened there. The club has a good working relationship with some of the senior staff at the parks district,that being said ,there is only so much that can be done within their rules. This relationship is one of the reasons that Crockett got build at all. The board of directors for the parks mostly old and don't "get"mountain biking. The BTCEB is a club that relies on volunteers,no one makes a dime from anything that they do to support mountain biking,sometimes money comes out of pocket . You (OP) are mostly right about low hanging fruit , how many people do you think are active board members? How many of them do trail work or go to meeting to represent you and the rest of bikers at meeting? As of today there are 8 or 9 board members . Just like you they have family ,other responsibilities, and interests. Just like you they frustrated with the state of trail access in the East Bay. Unfortunately the mountain biking community can't change much or any of the politics or policy of the parks district . The club would love to be able to go to parks board meeting and say that they represent many thousand mountain bikers ,right now the club has around 400 paid members . It easy to be critical ,not so easy to work to make a difference. The club rides are a way of building awareness of issues relating to local cycling, they also help develop new riders. The places to have group rides are chosen with many factors being involved ,such as weather ,permitting , terrain and more. The BTCEB board would like it very much if more people would join the club and like it even more if some of you would join the board and take some of the load of working for trail access in the east bay.

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by chemtrailsniffer View Post
    Please, let's be crystal clear about exactly how that played out.

    • The reroute was Friends of JMP and park management's idea
    • The BTCEB Board kept the reroute quiet because they weren't sure they would get the support they needed from the cycling community.
    • The BTCEB Board did not want things floating around from the cycling community and getting back to park management/FofJMP
    • The BTCEB Board announced the reroute when it was a done deal -without any input from the local cycling community


    IMO, based on decades of riding around here, opportunities to open existing or new singletrack in the East Bay are extremely limited and not worth spending any more time on.

    Signed,

    Former BTCEB member
    It is true, historically and factually that BTCEB hid these details from members and the general public. Good intentioned or not - they lied by omission.

    A look back on their 30 year track record shows not much, if any forward progress.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_510 View Post
    I've been a little down in the dumps about the woeful state of legal east bay riding lately...

    I don't want to funnel all my ire about the flawed east bay off road cycling scene into the BTCEB, but they're the only show in town.

    I'd love for someone to prove me wrong, fill me in on real wins they've accomplished recently, what is in the pipeline for them, and why I should bother becoming a member.
    I've been to some BTCEB meetings and events. Nice people that do care about maintaining access and gaining it where they can. They'll admit that there isn't much that needs to be done with the trails "we've got" they coordinate work days as needed if the land manager will let them do so. This is to your low hanging fruit point What can you do when you're waiting for EB Regional Parks legacy haters to die off? What can you do when many users in EBRP have been indoctrinated to dislike mountain bikers and start proselytizing if they see you on a trail they think you might now be allowed on?

    Not like we are going to get their support in opening new narrow multi use trails even though would reduce the conflict they perceive. On the positive, I would point out JMP is a punchy, rugged little park and if you get creative you can carve out some good rides there. If you link it up with Redwood, you can get some solid riding in. On the legal front: West Ridge descent especially the lower is a long technical descent. I climb right back up that somebitch as it's an honorable training climb. I'm making lemonade here, I realize, but you are also free to ride whatever you want and if you do it at certain times of day or night you will encounter few if any people and if someone says something don't say anything. Just keep rolling. What I'd like to see is protest rides. Let's roll the dirt we should have fair access to as the 2nd largest user group in numbers that can't easily be disrupted by ticketing rangers. Apart from that I think if you want better access and a cooler MTB vibe you need to leave the core of the Bay. It's a joke and every time I ride Skyline in Napa, where everyone is cool, or head out of town to AZ, UT, CO, ID, VT, VA, NC even SoCal, and many more locations, the hikers are often praising MTB'ers for riding challenging terrain etc. Watch all the nanas cheering on Nate Hills shredding the National Trail in South Mountain Phoenix as his passing like 20 of them on a hike there in his Follow Cam series. F-the Bay. It's a lost cause. The sooner we accept this futility and continue to ride or leave the happier we will be. XOXO

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_510 View Post
    I've been a little down in the dumps about the woeful state of legal east bay riding lately...

    Which brought me to wonder what the heck BTCEB actually does these days. I used to read updates about their advocacy efforts here on the Norcal Board, now crickets. I sure don't see the effects of said efforts.

    From my perspective, and from looking at their meetup, it seems like all they do these days is host group rides (almost all of which are NOT on trails in the east bay, a bad sign). There's a couple trail work days here and there in the Oakland area. Mostly JMP and Chabot, the lowest hanging fruit possible for a Berkeley-based organization. I know they point to Crockett as a sign of their advocacy work.. but that's kinda laughable given that it's always in terrible shape and most riders avoid it now.

    I don't want to funnel all my ire about the flawed east bay off road cycling scene into the BTCEB, but they're the only show in town.

    I'd love for someone to prove me wrong, fill me in on real wins they've accomplished recently, what is in the pipeline for them, and why I should bother becoming a member.
    Please disclose your affiliation/investment into BCTEB. Thanks!

    p.s. (everyone else) What thread killed Berkeley Mike???? He was verbose, but engaged and involved. The MTBR keyboard critics seemed to have ended his participation here.

  14. #14
    jrm
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    If we had trails like National Trail in the EB i sure wouldnt be riding JMP..


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    I moved to Oakland several years ago, and I expected to (financially) support BTCEB, as I have other bike orgs. But so far I haven't.

    But I just don't see BTCEB as being very effective. I know the history of what they did in the late 80s/early 90s, but there's been glacial progress since then. And yes, I recognize they've had a few successes lately, these are pretty tactical/incremental.

    Focusing on teaching riders to be courteous to other users won't get us more trails. It's a failed strategy -- it doesn't work in Marin, and it's not going to work here.

    It seems that after decades of little to no progress, they're resigned to letting the old guard of EBRPD die off, and then (they hope) there'll be change. But by that time I'll be too old to care. And so instead of riding in areas that my tax money pays for, I drive to Marin, Santa Cruz, Napa and the Sierra to ride.

    Since I've been in Oakland, the best two things for MTB access so far are
    - the fight against the bond measure for EB Parks
    - the guy (from the norcal forum) who ran for the board of EB Parks

    but neither of these events seemed to have public support of BTCEB (I could be wrong). It seems that they were afraid to rock the boat.

    I'd love to see BTCEB make the fight politically as in the two examples above. That would be an BTCEB that I could support.
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  16. #16
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    East Bay Trail Council, Marin, Midpen land managers

    It's the Bermuda Triangle of lost trail opportunities. Pretty hard to say which one is the best, or the worst.
    Last edited by fc; 09-07-2017 at 10:41 AM.
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  17. #17
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    I was a paid member of the BTCED. I like all the guys and gals. I went to the rides and learned new places. They have a good social agenda and cater to new riders. I do wish that they where a stronger force, but that is also our responsibility as well. They are established and have the biggest member list in the bay area. Having more people join and speak up is what we all need.

    I unfortunately don't have the time with kids and work to be an active member, but have and will support them financially.

    It's also debatable whether talking about riding illegal single track will help make it legal or shut it down completely.

  18. #18
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    While it is true that we at the BTCEB have not been as active as we could have been, partly due to my six-month medical leave of absence, we still managed to put in one or two days a week clearing deadfall trees and repairing erosion at Joaquin Miller Park. JMP is currently the only park where we can help maintain trails without elaborate formal approval. EBRPD will only give us approval to work in any of their parks once a year, at a time that they arrange, irregardless of necessity. Any more work days than once a year, we run into serious interference from the Union. However, in April, BTCEB began to petition the EBRPD to give us permission to have small work parties repair the whacked out trails at Crockett Hills. CH has been virtually unridable recently and we found the new supervisor to be progressive and amenable. After almost six months of weekly back-and-forth communications and meetings, EBRPD finally gave us their blessing to work on the CH trails. Our first work day, hopefully the first of many, is September 15th. If you (or any one else) send me your email address, I will be happy to put you on the list for future work parties.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbn921 View Post
    It's also debatable whether talking about riding illegal single track will help make it legal or shut it down completely.
    Sir, I respectfully disagree. They can't shut down narrow park trails that are open to hikers and equestrians. All they can do is patrol and cite. I think this living on our knees and hiding in the shadows with these dated mentalities only fuels the no MTB narrow trail access stalemate. Their policies and the trails we have access to passively demonstrate their desire to turn us off as a user group to their lands. I used to believe if I rode trails with no bike signs or user built trails that I would mess everything up for MTB access. Right? That's what IMBA and local advocacy groups preach non-stop. I agree with this logic in places where MTB'ers have reasonable narrow trail access with the exception of Wilderness. We should have some access to those lands....not all but most.

    Here in the Bay where we don't have narrow trail access even remotely aligned with our user numbers this "we could lose it all" philosophy is just a complete fear mongering falsehood. I'm not talking about rogue trails someone roughed in for their own use. I'm talking about either established narrow trails that due to park regulations prohibit bicycle traffic or user built trails with enough traffic that they are now themselves and established part of the network. There are no examples of where exclusionary policies or policing that yield quality results. It's just a circle jerk of old haters trying to get the po-lice to bust us outlaws. Here's a post from TAMBA regarding the Kingsbury Stinger trail which was a result of dealing with user built trails that the Forest Service tried to destroy only to have it reappear. Waste of time and money. TAMBA and the Tahoe Basin NFS have greatly improved their partnership through this trail re-alignment and you have a trail for all users groups that is a sustainable part of the network. Kingsbury Stinger (Jackie Chan Area) – tamba.org

    Inclusive is the way forward. The conflict that EB Parks i.e. MTB'ers going down too fast on fire roads or riding narrow trails is a direct result of their policies. If we had 10-15 miles of cohesive narrow multi use trails, each, in the Oakland Hills and the Diablo Valley with access that required some ride in length let's say 2 miles. Most MTBers would be away from the haters and the complainers and we'd all go on our merry way. Just give us a place to hang out, man. Places that spend time and money busting prohibiting mountain bikers are smug, entitled laughing stock communities. Take my $300 citation and give that money to a failing school district rather than feeding a law enforcement ranger pension for 30 years at full salary. Or fuel for the EBRPD police helicopter....are you F-ING Kidding me????

  20. #20
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    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Flat Pedals again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flat Pedals View Post
    Sir, I respectfully disagree. They can't shut down narrow park trails that are open to hikers and equestrians. All they can do is patrol and cite. I think this living on our knees and hiding in the shadows with these dated mentalities only fuels the no MTB narrow trail access stalemate. Their policies and the trails we have access to passively demonstrate their desire to turn us off as a user group to their lands. I used to believe if I rode trails with no bike signs or user built trails that I would mess everything up for MTB access. Right? That's what IMBA and local advocacy groups preach non-stop. I agree with this logic in places where MTB'ers have reasonable narrow trail access with the exception of Wilderness. We should have some access to those lands....not all but most.

    Here in the Bay where we don't have narrow trail access even remotely aligned with our user numbers this "we could lose it all" philosophy is just a complete fear mongering falsehood. I'm not talking about rogue trails someone roughed in for their own use. I'm talking about either established narrow trails that due to park regulations prohibit bicycle traffic or user built trails with enough traffic that they are now themselves and established part of the network. There are no examples of where exclusionary policies or policing that yield quality results. It's just a circle jerk of old haters trying to get the po-lice to bust us outlaws. Here's a post from TAMBA regarding the Kingsbury Stinger trail which was a result of dealing with user built trails that the Forest Service tried to destroy only to have it reappear. Waste of time and money. TAMBA and the Tahoe Basin NFS have greatly improved their partnership through this trail re-alignment and you have a trail for all users groups that is a sustainable part of the network. Kingsbury Stinger (Jackie Chan Area) – tamba.org

    Inclusive is the way forward. The conflict that EB Parks i.e. MTB'ers going down too fast on fire roads or riding narrow trails is a direct result of their policies. If we had 10-15 miles of cohesive narrow multi use trails, each, in the Oakland Hills and the Diablo Valley with access that required some ride in length let's say 2 miles. Most MTBers would be away from the haters and the complainers and we'd all go on our merry way. Just give us a place to hang out, man. Places that spend time and money busting prohibiting mountain bikers are smug, entitled laughing stock communities. Take my $300 citation and give that money to a failing school district rather than feeding a law enforcement ranger pension for 30 years at full salary. Or fuel for the EBRPD police helicopter....are you F-ING Kidding me????
    The roads aren't safe and the dirt paths are banned. we've got nothing to lose by poaching, so **** it
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    Flat pedals. I'm talking about mountain bike trails built by bikers for bikers. They are not open to anyone. Getting already established single track access should be an open debate.
    Alternate directional trails solve almost all trail conflicts. I believe we can share and should have bike specific trails too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrm View Post
    If we had trails like National Trail in the EB i sure wouldnt be riding JMP..

    If we had something like that in the East Bay it would be hikers, equestrians and cows only.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by chemtrailsniffer View Post
    How exactly does illegal singletrack get "shut down completely"?
    Mass destruction.


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    Let's talk about bay area single track that could be destroyed or enforced into oblivion. If it's low key they don't care and leave it alone. What happens when we call it out by name and try to make it legal. Without a strong organization to help lobby, it could be destroyed. Also the presence of a legal fun challenging trail will bring more traffic. This increases user conflicts.

    Understand that we could show up with 50+ mountain bikers, kids in tow at the meetings. Would that help or hinder. As of right now it's under the radar and I'm not willing to risk it. If they were legal it would also put more demands on the people that maintain the trails in question. Illegally maintained of course.

    I'm not worried about my personal impact on the trails as I try to be an ambassador when I'm out riding.

  26. #26
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    Or it's deemed "unauthorized" even though it was created by a EBRPD grazing operation...

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    Quote Originally Posted by chemtrailsniffer View Post
    How exactly does illegal singletrack get "shut down completely"?
    land managers have been known to completely destroy trails they don't like by burying them under trees, bushes, detritus. They've even tilled and torn up trails. This has happened in joaquin miller, lime ridge, shell ridge - all over.
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    The last election got us 2 haters on the board of the park district. Progress is going to be slow...

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    Last edited by zorg; 09-08-2017 at 12:28 PM. Reason: Stupid autocorrect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chemtrailsniffer View Post
    How exactly does illegal singletrack get "shut down completely"?
    BTCEB - What's the deal?-capture99.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    Please disclose your affiliation/investment into BCTEB. Thanks!
    Not sure if you're being serious or not, but in case it's not obvious... I have no affiliation with them, and my investment is zero. Hence the thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truckee29 View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    These guys are the ones who build and destroy the best EBRPD singletrack.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_510 View Post
    These guys are the ones who build and destroy the best EBRPD singletrack.
    Actually, in pleasanton ridge such a cow trail became an official single track a few years back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by omanwurmi View Post
    Any more work days than once a year, we run into serious interference from the Union.
    Wait, wait, wait... this is new to me.. EBRPD has a some type of union workers that have priority on doing trail work in their parks? What union, park rangers or something?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_510 View Post
    Wait, wait, wait... this is new to me.. EBRPD has a some type of union workers that have priority on doing trail work in their parks? What union, park rangers or something?
    So cute. EBRPD is an old agency (75+ years) with a strong union. Union contract states that trail work can only be done by district union employees (IIRC). Meanwhile not much gets done. Vargas plateau 2 new trails have not been cut yet despite being approved years ago... it's a crazy agency that's mostly interested in serving itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    it's a crazy agency that's mostly interested in serving itself.
    you just defined almost every government agency. with the possible exception of the marines - they're mostly interested in killing people and breaking things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    you just defined almost every government agency. with the possible exception of the marines - they're mostly interested in killing people and breaking things.
    True, but the older the agency the more inward looking they get.

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  37. #37
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    Fixed it:
    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    East Bay Trail Council, Marin, Midpen land managers

    It's the Bermuda Triangle of locked gates. Pretty hard to say which one is the best, or the worst.
    Unless someone remembers there being more opportunities, of course. I've been a BTCEB member for about a dozen years, and of course not a whole lot has changed. This is not due to any incompetence at BTCEB, but due to the green politics and policies of an urban park system in a hyper-progressive area.

    Rangeriderdave, M.U., BerkeleyMike and lots of others have done loads to maintain access to JMP for us, specifically by staying engaged with the FoJMP and FoSC, and by doing visible trail repair, and reroutes too.

    Crockett Hills: There are berms and jumps in an East Bay Regional Park. If you're not moved by this fact, then you don't understand the EBRPD and local access history. Is it the best trail system around? No, but it is in an EBPRD park, legally.

    EBRPD holds most of the land, and they're far too big and set in their ways to bother with making shifts in their policies; I'm sure their concerns about lawsuits from environmental groups are legit. As a BTCEB member, I don't expect my money to change this fact, just like any local republican shouldn't expect their campaign contributions to make a single ripple in Bay Area politics. If you really know where you are, you'll understand why this stuff moves at a glacial pace.
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    Someone hold my drink for a second, I needs me some more popcorn.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chemtrailsniffer View Post
    Please, let's be crystal clear about exactly how that played out.

    • The reroute was Friends of JMP and park management's idea
    • The BTCEB Board kept the reroute quiet because they weren't sure they would get the support they needed from the cycling community.
    • The BTCEB Board did not want things floating around from the cycling community and getting back to park management/FofJMP
    • The BTCEB Board announced the reroute when it was a done deal -without any input from the local cycling community


    IMO, based on decades of riding around here, opportunities to open existing or new singletrack in the East Bay are extremely limited and not worth spending any more time on.

    Signed,

    Former BTCEB member
    True. The board decided to avoid the shiteshow that member input would have amounted to, and perhaps helped keep access to the park (by agreeing to help get bikes out of the seasonal drainage channels). And, the reroute of the bottom of Cinderella increased the amount of single track in the park, as did the Palos Colorado reroute. I'm okay with how all of this panned out.
    Every rose has it's thorn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_510 View Post
    Not sure if you're being serious or not, but in case it's not obvious... I have no affiliation with them, and my investment is zero. Hence the thread.
    So you don't volunteer any of your time or donate any money, and you seem to think other volunteers and donors should make things better for you. Got it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    So you don't volunteer any of your time or donate any money, and you seem to think other volunteers and donors should make things better for you. Got it.
    No, I'm looking at what they've done recently and wondering if it's worth my time or money, quite different. Seems to me, despite all that's been said, they really don't / can't do $hit, and blame the EBRPD for not being able to get anything done. Fair enough.. but if that is admittedly their stance, why the hell would I give them money?

    What's YOUR affiliation with the BTCEB? Chief troll?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_510 View Post
    No, I'm looking at what they've done recently and wondering if it's worth my time or money, quite different. Seems to me, despite all that's been said, they really don't / can't do $hit, and blame the EBRPD for not being able to get anything done. Fair enough.. but if that is admittedly their stance, why the hell would I give them money?

    What's YOUR affiliation with the BTCEB? Chief troll?
    I think it's helpful to know the people in this thread - as it helps better understand where they're coming from.

    Pete was a long time btceb member - who bailed when he got frustrated with them. Put me in that category, too.

    empty-beer doesn't live here - but up north, he devotes lots of time and energy to advocacy - and based on what I've seen - he is more succesfull than our btceb folks are.

    Thus, I think empty-beer might be taking the stance that if you're not involved - yet complaining - you might be a hypocrite.

    I'd argue that down here in btceb land; many of us have been involved - and made no progress - so we bailed.

    I think we're all frustrated - and that's ok. Sometimes that leads to change as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    I think it's helpful to know the people in this thread - as it helps better understand where they're coming from.
    Thanks for the run-down, I don't really know any of you guys.
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    Progress in the east bay will always be incremental. My understanding is that the employees are more supportive of MTBers but the board is less so. Things do take forever, that's for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Progress in the east bay will always be incremental. My understanding is that the employees are more supportive of MTBers but the board is less so. Things do take forever, that's for sure.

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    Progress to me is net-gains. IE more miles of trails. Are some trails opened now and then? yes. Are many trails closed in the same period of time? yes. Are we seeing net gains or losses? Feels like more losses than gains.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Progress to me is net-gains. IE more miles of trails. Are some trails opened now and then? yes. Are many trails closed in the same period of time? yes. Are we seeing net gains or losses? Feels like more losses than gains.
    Progress has been glacial, but trails have been opened.
    - neat single track in pleasanton ridge (2 of them)
    - slated addition of a few miles of single track on the Tyler ranch extension to the ridge
    - approved bike park in San leandro
    - couple new trails approved but not built in Vargas plateau.

    Is this enough? Of course not. Is this too slow: absolutely. There has been some progress but at EBRPD pace. Now folks can argue whether another set of characters could have done better. I don't know and since I am not the one volunteering my time, I certainly won't crap on those that do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Progress has been glacial, but trails have been opened.
    - neat single track in pleasanton ridge (2 of them)
    - slated addition of a few miles of single track on the Tyler ranch extension to the ridge
    - approved bike park in San leandro
    - couple new trails approved but not built in Vargas plateau.

    Is this enough? Of course not. Is this too slow: absolutely. There has been some progress but at EBRPD pace. Now folks can argue whether another set of characters could have done better. I don't know and since I am not the one volunteering my time, I certainly won't crap on those that do.

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    That doesn't answer the question, though. Are these net gains? Or when weighed with the miles of trails lost during the same period of time are they losses? It feels like for every step forward we take 1 or 2 back.

    And I'm not knocking the people working with btceb. maybe the strategy - but not the people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    That doesn't answer the question, though. Are these net gains? Or when weighed with the miles of trails lost during the same period of time are they losses? It feels like for every step forward we take 1 or 2 back.

    And I'm not knocking the people working with btceb. maybe the strategy - but not the people.
    I am not aware of losses in the 10 years I have followed , but others with more knowledge can chime in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_510 View Post
    No, I'm looking at what they've done recently and wondering if it's worth my time or money, quite different. Seems to me, despite all that's been said, they really don't / can't do $hit, and blame the EBRPD for not being able to get anything done. Fair enough.. but if that is admittedly their stance, why the hell would I give them money?

    What's YOUR affiliation with the BTCEB? Chief troll?
    IHB gets to the gist of my curmudgeonry. Seems like most mt. bikers expect other people to do all the ground work, paper work, trail work and they have to have tons of wins for others to get involved, whether that's donating a puny $20 per year cause you feel guilty for enjoying the labor of others, or you actually get involved. Everybody loves playing with the team that makes the playoffs or wins the big game every year vs. the team that has a losing record every season, right? Well MTB advocacy in NorCal will probably have a losing record for several more years, but the tide is turning and it needs more people to keep it moving in a positive direction.

    I picked up mt. biking in 1991, when I lived next to Redwood/JMP. I didn't pay attention to advocacy and didn't know it existed. I just new there were no bike signs in both parks (and other places)... at first I assumed they meant the trails were too difficult to take bikes on them, but then I discovered otherwise. When I moved to the Folsom Lake area in 1999, I discovered that the same no bike signs were on the trails nearby my apartment. I started paying more attention to advocacy and how to change things. Over the years, I noticed that superstar volunteers would burn out, and for a while, nobody was stepping up to replace them. Finally people did step up... only to learn why predecessors burned out. But part of the burn out comes not just from land managers saying "no" (or at least rarely ever saying "yes") but because it is the same 6 or 7 people doing nearly everything for the betterment of their local trails and fellow mt. bikers. We don't do it for pats on the back and attaboys... we do it to make things better for mt. biking.

    I'm a little burned out myself. I have no problem heckling people who wonder "when are they going to get this trail legal for bikes?" or "When are they going to fix this trail?" I am "they". You are "they". If just half of your riding crew actually got involved with BTCEB and invested 20 hours per year of your time into improving access or improving trails, you might just start seeing some wins that you can be stoked on. But most mt. bikers just won't give up ride time to do much of anything... except complain on social media.

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    I donate to a few bike-related non-profits - the SBTS being one, because it feels like there is a visible, quantitative reward for my donations. BTCEB feels kinda like throwing my money into the ether.

    Yeah, I'd rather put my money where my mouth is than get out and spend my limited time at meetings, or on-the-ground, (did someone say low hanging fruit?) but at least I'm doing SOMETHING.
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    They didnt want to deal with the shiteshow from their members?
    Aren't the members part of the BTCEB.
    if they dont want to listen to the members how do they expect a person like me who wants to help to step up with time and $ i can afford to donate.
    So just keep donations i can afford going to SBTS?

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    p.s. (everyone else) What thread killed Berkeley Mike???? He was verbose, but engaged and involved. The MTBR keyboard critics seemed to have ended his participation here.
    I, too, miss Berkeley Mike. It seemed to me that he had a world of knowledge, but ran out of patience with the influx of millenials who had plenty of keyboard anger but not a lot of real world showing up (my one trail work day aside, I'm probably included in that group). I don't remember what was the last straw, but I remember one of the last threads with him was where someone challenged people to not hide behind anonymous avatars. He was one of the few to give his full name.

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    Before this post came up I just had this discussion with a buddy that was questioning his membership renewal to BTCEB as it does not yield the obvious trail mileage benefits that say giving money to SBTS does. This isn't a fair comparison. The Sierra Buttes scene has a lot to do with the displaced energy that can't, unfortunately, be put to good use in the Bay given the politics around MTBs on narrow trails. Let's not forget the Lost Sierra is minimum 3 hours from the Bay. Traffic is nuts all of the time now. I'm sure we can all agree it's harder to get out for a weekend high country get away than 5 or 6 years ago before tech boom era traffic took hold. For me, if JMP were closed to MTBs or our access greatly reduced, I'd be looking to relocate. In 12 minute drive or 35 minute pedal I am on singletrack, riding challenging trails. To boot it's prime real estate: redwoods, shade, fog to tamp down dust, and amazing views. Yes there are break ins, dog shit and litter. This is a major city with horrible economic inequality. In that context, the park is immaculate. Back to my point: BTCEB does protect our access to JMP. I met the park manager a few years ago at the BTCEB holiday party and he spoke highly of the group and the partnership they've formed. Allies like that are really hard to come by in the Bay. They'll always get a donation from me for the partnership they maintain with Oakland Parks and JMP. For the record I give more $ to SBTS because they can do more to improve my riding experience and are building a trails based economy which will become an example for land managers everywhere even here in the East Bay when hopefully the haters get voted out or die off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flat Pedals View Post
    Before this post came up I just had this discussion with a buddy that was questioning his membership renewal to BTCEB as it does not yield the obvious trail mileage benefits that say giving money to SBTS does. This isn't a fair comparison. The Sierra Buttes scene has a lot to do with the displaced energy that can't, unfortunately, be put to good use in the Bay given the politics around MTBs on narrow trails. Let's not forget the Lost Sierra is minimum 3 hours from the Bay. Traffic is nuts all of the time now. I'm sure we can all agree it's harder to get out for a weekend high country get away than 5 or 6 years ago before tech boom era traffic took hold. For me, if JMP were closed to MTBs or our access greatly reduced, I'd be looking to relocate. In 12 minute drive or 35 minute pedal I am on singletrack, riding challenging trails. To boot it's prime real estate: redwoods, shade, fog to tamp down dust, and amazing views. Yes there are break ins, dog shit and litter. This is a major city with horrible economic inequality. In that context, the park is immaculate. Back to my point: BTCEB does protect our access to JMP. I met the park manager a few years ago at the BTCEB holiday party and he spoke highly of the group and the partnership they've formed. Allies like that are really hard to come by in the Bay. They'll always get a donation from me for the partnership they maintain with Oakland Parks and JMP. For the record I give more $ to SBTS because they can do more to improve my riding experience and are building a trails based economy which will become an example for land managers everywhere even here in the East Bay when hopefully the haters get voted out or die off.
    Unfortunately, bay area park districts don't really need to cater to anybody. They're well funded via taxes and usually have to deal with too many visits. They could not care less what SBTS does.

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    BTCEB - What's the deal?-flatpedalsrep.jpg

    Dog bless the winning teams.... SBTS, TAMBA, MBOSC, BONC, FTA, (PLT, TDLT) but don't give up on the groups who battle on the front lines every single day, without a whole lot of trophies to show for it: BTCEB, A4B, MCBC, SVMTB, FATRAC... STC. And don't pretend the winning teams didn't put a sh!tload of volunteer work getting to where they are, some with paid staff now.

    p.s. When STC succeeds at the federal level, you better believe that will make things easier for non-Wilderness areas BTCEB and others deal with. If reasonable bicycle access is permitted in congressionally designated Wilderness, it is fair to assume reasonable bicycle access could follow in EBRPD, Marin and South Bay lands.

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    Sorry, Pete. Not dealing with you and the huge chip you carry around. Nothing I or anyone can say will make you happy. Maybe you should move along... perhaps take up golf?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    Sorry, Pete. Not dealing with you and the huge chip you carry around. Nothing I or anyone can say will make you happy. Maybe you should move along... perhaps take up golf?
    Wow. He has another sock puppet?

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    Love ya, Pete. At least you're predictable!

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    Regarding ,rider input to the reroutes at JM, the city of Oakland(park managers) made the decisions on the reroutes , there was never going to be any pubic input to what was wanted by any user group.He /they never intended for anyone but them to have a say. The BTCEB could and probably should have put something out , but again there was never going be any pubic input. The friends of JM and the friends SC had some say ,but the manager made the decisions. The BTCEB had/has a good relationship with the managers, he/they asked for help ,the BTCEB said yes. If the reroutes had not have happen ,would JM be any better today ? In my opinion it is better today for All park users.

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    I rode 8.5 miles and 1450ft at JMP last night. It was awesome reroutes and all! I almost moved to the peninsula a few years back thinking I would live closer to Skeggs because that was my main riding zone. So glad I didn't as Skeggs has been massively dumbed down on top of the already bad speed traps and no night riding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chemtrailsniffer View Post
    Again, let's be crystal clear here.

    It was kept quiet because the BTCEB Board weren't sure that they would get the support they needed from the various stakeholders and did not want things floating around from the cycling community and getting back to them.

    There certainly would have been some public input and the BTCEB Board was concerned that the input, whether to park management or to the BTCEB Board, would impact the secret decision that the BTCEB Board had already made.
    $2 hill sucked anyway. No big loss.

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    So do people hate that Cinderella reroute? I've ridden into the old section before and had to crawl through the barrier. Seemed kinda lame. Reroute is kinda fun.

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    This is great. Moderators remove posts that don't violate policy but might go against some unwritten belief of someone with this power to remove?

    So long MTBR. You will not only lose me as a subscriber but any overall credibility in the MTB community as well.

    It's been real

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrungLam View Post

    That can of whoop ass reached its expiration date back in 2005, time to get a new one!
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    $2 hill sucked anyway. No big loss.

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    were you able to climb $2 hill? It was a major attraction for many many people. bragging rights and shit. that road had been there for 100 years or so - and they destroyed it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    were you able to climb $2 hill? It was a major attraction for many many people. bragging rights and shit. that road had been there for 100 years or so - and they destroyed it.
    Tried many times and always ran out of juice at the railroad tie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Tried many times and always ran out of juice at the railroad tie.

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    One might think you didn't like $2 hill cause you couldn't ride it. the new singletrack is ok - but it's nothing to write home about. $2 hill was a constant challenge - even for people who could clean it.
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    There have been four reroutes in JM , Big Trees , Sunset aka 2$ hill , Upper Palos Colorados and Cinderella . The reasons for the reroutes Big Trees ,erosion ,too wet to ride when wet. Sunset , was a log skid from the logging days of JM. Again erosion ,it was/is basically a creek bed . Upper Palos , again erosion . Cinderella ,too many close calls at the bottom where the trail met the fire road . The reroutes were done for the good of the park ,with user experience a secondary consideration .
    I think the point has been missed ,that it was the the park management decision to do the reroutes ,it was their decision not to have any pubic input . If the BTCEB was asked by the managers not publicize anything about trail reroutes or have no say in the reroutes ,what would you have had them do? Would you rather have a limited say or no say?
    All of you that have been around the Est Bay Parks ,know that they don't respond to user concerns ,some of you have shared those concerns here. At JM they (managers) at least are willing to work with cyclists to some degree.
    Low hanging fruit ,you do something where it is possible to do something ,even where there is going to be criticism from people that don't know the politics ,or have all the information needed .












    4hi

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    Quote Originally Posted by rangeriderdave View Post
    There have been four reroutes in JM , Big Trees , Sunset aka 2$ hill , Upper Palos Colorados and Cinderella .

    4hi
    Long time BTCEB member. I helped with some of the rerouting work and love all 4 reroutes. JMP is our closest park and neighborhood park serving all users, not just hard core shredders. I am introducing my young girls to MTB on these trails; they would not have been able to ride these years ago. My wife loves these for hiking.

    If you want input and change -- even if at glacial pace -- then show up and actively participate. I don't like arm-chair critics and naysayers and often dismiss such useless opinions.
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    note to self; never write pete an IM that you don't want shared publicly
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    note to self; never write pete an IM that you don't want shared publicly
    That's a dick move. Expected better from Pete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chemtrailsniffer View Post
    ftfy
    just because pete uses an endless stream of sock puppets, does not mean people can't immediately tell when he pops up. Surely Berkeley mike knew exactly who he was IM'ing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    p.s. When STC succeeds at the federal level, you better believe that will make things easier for non-Wilderness areas BTCEB and others deal with. If reasonable bicycle access is permitted in congressionally designated Wilderness, it is fair to assume reasonable bicycle access could follow in EBRPD, Marin and South Bay lands.
    No it is not fair to assume that...it would likely get worse in reaction. And the Wilderness thing is a long shot to begin with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fourarm View Post
    No it is not fair to assume that...it would likely get worse in reaction. And the Wilderness thing is a long shot to begin with.
    So if the "gold standard" of environmental protection included off road cycling, in some but not all cases it would cause a negative backlash in less stringent public land designations?

    OK....

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by fourarm View Post
    No it is not fair to assume that...it would likely get worse in reaction. And the Wilderness thing is a long shot to begin with.
    We all have our theories. Thanks for sharing yours. I truly believe bikes will be allowed in W and other currently off limits lands. It is inevitable. I'm just trying to do my part to speed that timeline up so I can legally enjoy access myself. Ebikes are certainly throwing a motor in the spokes though!

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    Yes, risk-adverse bureaucrats like to cite other agencies as reason for policy.

  78. #78
    Uncle
    Reputation: Entrenador's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting this. And thanks BTCEB and Berkeley Mike for the solid leadership over the years. JMP is a better place because of it.
    Every rose has it's thorn.

    enjoy the ear worm

  79. #79
    > /dev/null 2&>1
    Reputation: Procter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flat Pedals View Post
    I rode 8.5 miles and 1450ft at JMP last night. It was awesome reroutes and all! I almost moved to the peninsula a few years back thinking I would live closer to Skeggs because that was my main riding zone. So glad I didn't as Skeggs has been massively dumbed down on top of the already bad speed traps and no night riding.
    There's no night riding at skeggs?

  80. #80
    mtbr member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    There's no night riding at skeggs?
    Heck, there's no night riding at JMP
    Live to Ride, Ride to Live

  81. #81
    Ride Fast Take Chances :)
    Reputation: alexbn921's Avatar
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    Briones closes at 10 so it's mostly legal at night.

  82. #82
    > /dev/null 2&>1
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    You just ride in a Ghille suit, everything is legal when you're in a Ghille suit.


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