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  1. #1
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    Auburn State Recreational Area - Culvert Phase 2 trail work sign up Feb 8th - 10th

    Folks,

    We are resuming work on the popular Culvert downhill trail located within the Auburn State Recreational Area.

    With Phase 2 approved, we will be realigning some parts of the trail to improve drainage and flow while ensuring this continues to be a thrilling ride.

    If you liked and were a part of what we started last year, you'll want to join us to complete the vision we have for creating a world class downhill corridor that offers fun and excitement for all skill levels.

    Registration is limited to 12 people per day so sign up now if you're interested.

    Details:
    When: Feb 8th - 10th
    Where: ASRA Culvert (stage at Fuel Break and Culvert)
    What: trail work
    Time: 8.30 a.m. - 5.00 p.m. (options for 1/2 day)

    Sign up here -

    Doodle: CULVERT ACTION ALERT

    Note: While we will provide refreshments, please come prepared to be self sufficient.

    Cheers,

    Steve

    If you have questions, reach out to me at jminn8086@gmail.com

  2. #2
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    Just a reminder ...

    Culvert Phase II work resumes this weekend. Sign up and be a part of something truly special within the Auburn State Recreational Area!

  3. #3
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    saw you guys out there today working in the rain. Great job!

    I got trapped between closures today, both culvert and middle trail / stonewall were closed today for work. Guess they're putting up a new fence that requires a dismount so moto's can't sneak into the OHV park without paying via old foresthill rd.

    I read something about stage 2 incorporating more berms and fun on fuel break heading from green gate / connector parking, towards culvert. Any truth to that or just rumors?

    Would you guys have any work for riders that just wanna give an hour here or there on random rides without signing up, or is it structured differently?

    Thank you!

  4. #4
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    It is looking sweet, went and checked it out with John and Zachi. Some super sweet turns! Auburn Bike Works is provide lunch and beverages!

  5. #5
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    I'd say any help is awesome, an hour may only get your hands dirty though. 20 hours of volunteer work gets you a Parking pass!
    Quote Originally Posted by redmr2_man View Post
    saw you guys out there today working in the rain. Great job!

    I got trapped between closures today, both culvert and middle trail / stonewall were closed today for work. Guess they're putting up a new fence that requires a dismount so moto's can't sneak into the OHV park without paying via old foresthill rd.

    I read something about stage 2 incorporating more berms and fun on fuel break heading from green gate / connector parking, towards culvert. Any truth to that or just rumors?

    Would you guys have any work for riders that just wanna give an hour here or there on random rides without signing up, or is it structured differently?

    Thank you!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike thompson View Post
    I'd say any help is awesome, an hour may only get your hands dirty though. 20 hours of volunteer work gets you a Parking pass!
    I just got back from the site and although we got light rain, the conditions are still very good for trail work. Here is a link to some initial pictures of the work.

    https://picasaweb.google.com/1127141.../CulvertPhase2

  7. #7
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    redmr2_ma

    Thank you for your interest and willingness to lend a hand. You're welcome to join us during a scheduled event but would ask that any trail work done on the Culvert is part of an organized effort please.

    We've worked hard to secure the support of the ASRA and the lead ranger and all trail work needs to be done according to our plans that have been approved and under supervision.

  8. #8
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    what type of closures can I expect tomorrow?? I always love me some Stonewall trail
    Master of Nothing, but dammit if I don't try..............

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by digthemlows View Post
    what type of closures can I expect tomorrow?? I always love me some Stonewall trail
    Culvert will be closed as we have equipment on it. Stonewall should be open.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by digthemlows View Post
    what type of closures can I expect tomorrow?? I always love me some Stonewall trail

    stonewall is open but state parks is building a dismount gate after the 2nd road crossing (old foresthill near the entrance to stonewall ohv trail). Right after that downhill berm/switchback thing. They've had a huge problem with moto's sneaking in without paying and at night. If you look, you'll see a few ?new? camo cameras out there, and I'm guessing they aren't just for wildlife.

    The gate is placed in a really dumb spot, you have alot of speed coming around that turn and down that section.

  11. #11
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    I was up there today and there are big changes to he trail and it looks good.
    Great job to all doing the work
    Thanks

  12. #12
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    We really workd hard today, I personally recruited a talented group of locals and they kicked ass! Hard workers and a great eye for shape and contour! The trail looks great, a bit dry in some areas and wet in others but overall looking really fun. Ill get a full run in tomorrow when we get done, not just pieces!

  13. #13
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    Auburn State Recreational Area - Culvert Phase 2 trail work sign up Feb 8th - 10th

    saw tons of help out there.... will be interesting to see how it goes... hoping the trail isn't slower now
    Master of Nothing, but dammit if I don't try..............

  14. #14
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    I made a couple runs last night after we finished, I think everyone will be pleasantly surprised! The trail has gained some epic turns that are only gonna get better when they are all settled in.

    Quote Originally Posted by digthemlows View Post
    saw tons of help out there.... will be interesting to see how it goes... hoping the trail isn't slower now

  15. #15
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    anyone have pics??
    Master of Nothing, but dammit if I don't try..............

  16. #16
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    Here is a video one of my employees made, he and the other riders on the Placer Foothills Cycling Team.



  17. #17
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    hard to tell, but it looks like it was stamped into a single track with berms, were all the jumps removed?? And did they take out the rock garden section completely?
    Master of Nothing, but dammit if I don't try..............

  18. #18
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    There a a few more features added in this time around. Which rock garden section? The armored turn is gone but there are 3 killer berms and linkable rollers to jump. The rock garden at the bottom of the armored turn straight away is still there and there are a few more feature options opened up because of a berm we through in. I think you'll like it I'll post some pics tomorrow.

  19. #19
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    awesome!! it's hard to tell, I can't wait to ride it, it's a fun trail!! and i was worried ..... Thanks to all who helped.....it was insane how many folks were out there on Saturday.........I only saw it as the work started, so
    Master of Nothing, but dammit if I don't try..............

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike thompson View Post
    Here is a video one of my employees made, he and the other riders on the Placer Foothills Cycling Team.


    Thanks for posting the video -

    A BIG shout out to those that came out and helped. It's hard to see from this video, but there are both defined A & B lines and as mentioned, we added features back in on this outing.

    Ride it - I think you'll like it. ... and, it's only going to get better!

  21. #21
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    Berms, jumps, table tops and rocks, oh my! Rode the new section today, it is awesome!
    Thanks for all your hard work, it is turning out great!

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuenstock View Post
    Berms, jumps, table tops and rocks, oh my! Rode the new section today, it is awesome!
    Thanks for all your hard work, it is turning out great!
    Glad you liked it!

  23. #23
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    great meeting you today. Can you update this thread with what happens with the stonewall fence+dismount? Really great to see someone so in touch with the ASRA folks. Making good things happen, keep up the awesome work.

    ps, nice bike!

  24. #24
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    I just got some video and pics today! I'll try and get them posted in a day or so. I shuttled so I got t hit features at multiple angles and hit some new ones!

  25. #25
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    redmr2_man - Stonewall access

    Quote Originally Posted by redmr2_man View Post
    great meeting you today. Can you update this thread with what happens with the stonewall fence+dismount? Really great to see someone so in touch with the ASRA folks. Making good things happen, keep up the awesome work.

    ps, nice bike!
    I spoke with the lead ranger about the newly erected fence near the top of Stonewall. In the short term, ASRA is putting more emphasis on controlling illegal entry and use of the park by motos versus MTB flow from Old Foresthill road.

    This was done on FDLT as well and eventually the step through gates were removed ... cross your fingers that we'll see the same outcome here.

  26. #26
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    New Realignmet Culvert

    Pretty sweet edit!



  27. #27
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    Just rode the new Culvert Trail. All the new features you put in are super fun!
    It would be cool to see more in the future.

  28. #28
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    I don't want anyone to take this personal, but what the hell?? Culvert used to be fast, and maybe an intermediate level trail.....now it's slow and totally a beginner trail......why on earth were all the berms built to slow you down?? I'm sorry......I just can't imagine why someone designed it the way it is now......Hopefully as folks try and renegade build features they won't get leveled.........I'm glad everyone worked hard, and I'll leave it at that.......
    Master of Nothing, but dammit if I don't try..............

  29. #29
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    I kinda felt the same way today. I asked a half dozen other riders how they felt about the new sections and got the same replies. It's new and different though, so I'm sure it just needs time to set in! Half the berms were almost entirely loam by 4pm, just the nature of auburn dirt I guess. Wish we had it like Bend, with more moisture.

    Really like more little poppy up/down stuff, but was bummed the rockgarden switchback was gone. Also wishing for more fun jumps to be built on the side. The new log drop up top was great, be cool to have stuff like that all the way down, Demo-style!

    either way, it probably just needs to have more riders on it digthemlows, give it some time.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by redmr2_man View Post
    I kinda felt the same way today. I asked a half dozen other riders how they felt about the new sections and got the same replies. It's new and different though, so I'm sure it just needs time to set in! Half the berms were almost entirely loam by 4pm, just the nature of auburn dirt I guess. Wish we had it like Bend, with more moisture.

    Really like more little poppy up/down stuff, but was bummed the rockgarden switchback was gone. Also wishing for more fun jumps to be built on the side. The new log drop up top was great, be cool to have stuff like that all the way down, Demo-style!

    either way, it probably just needs to have more riders on it digthemlows, give it some time.
    The rock garden switch back was my favorite part of the trail too. I wonder why it was removed to make the new corners. It seems like it would have been great to have both options there. Overall, I liked the flow of the trail before the recent work. We'll see how wears.

  31. #31
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    New trails are sick! Pumped on the new features!

  32. #32
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    many people don't like "change", whether it be changes to a trail (e.g., Culvert) or to a website (e.g., mtbr). then they get used to it. just takes time.

    I'd rather live with the Culvert changes than have State Parks mow the whole thing down because of "liability".

  33. #33
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    Some People

    Quote Originally Posted by FoothillRider View Post
    Sad to see a lot of the "improvements" done on Culvert. The trail obviously needed some drainage fixes, but the design of the new sections are crap. Taking out the rock sections make the trail no longer worth riding for many of us.

    Hoping next time, FATRAC can hire real designers who know what they are doing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caleb_H View Post
    New trails are sick! Pumped on the new features!
    +1! Great work on the trail! I and others appreciate the hard work.

    For the (non shovel lifting ) critics...



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  35. #35
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    Thinking about hitting these trails th is friday. Never been here. Whats the easiest way to get thre, park and trails to start off. Ill be coming from san jose. Wanted to make it worth the trip. Im very capable on the technical downhill, etc but slow on the uphill. Whatt do you guys suggest?
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  36. #36
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    Wow. I can't believe how much some people seem to hate the changes!
    I've been riding Auburn since the late 80's....boy have things changed!!

    The Culvert Trail, between FireBreak and the actual Culvert, was a mess really. It was one lined. One rut. We used to joke that when it rained hard you just jumped in the rut and railed it. There was no challenge to it at all. Go fast, mostly straight lined. That's the way it was up to a handful of years ago when people started building lame side junk that didn't flow at all. (Well, not speaking of the ladders that were 'hidden' up there. That section was GREAT! until State Parks killed them.)

    I for one am seriously stoked that the FTA guys and whomever else has formed a WORKING RELATIONSHIP with State Parks and reworking the trails for the better.

    I don't get how some people are complaining about it being 'slow' now? It's too slow? Learn how to corner you yahoo's. Life is not all about straight line speed. It takes skill to rail corners. And remember these are just set in. Once they have a nice rain, like we're having now, and then a dry spell with a weekend coming up, I bet those berms set up nicely and the speed will increase exponentially, if you have any skill yourself. ;-)

    And there's a bunch of love for that lame rock laden right handed turn? There was NO skill required to ride that thing. Really, come on now.

    I just understand all the hate? Coming from where this rutted out one line unstable trail was headed, closure, the change is great for the longevity of trails in the canyon. Not to mention the good will that has been formed with State Parks that shows MTB'ers aren't a bunch of one shovel having goon squad dorks out hacking up the earth.



    Well, there's my take. Flame away, saying I must be a poor underskilled rider to think the new trail is good in any way. Have fun! I can't wait to ditch work Thursday or Friday and hit the trail again.
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  37. #37
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    It's not "flaming" or "Trolling" to come here and say it's not as fun as it used to be. We asked lots of riders about it last weekend and very few liked the changes. The berms may get better, but they are ill placed and only serve to slow you down. There are "second lines" put in around area's that don't need a second line. It might be fun on a bmx bike or a rigid bike I guess. The problem is, Culvert was always a fun trail built to challenge, if you wanted a more beginner ride there were/are many other trails around, so why "level" culvert into a boring ride and tell anyone that complains we're "haters"?? It really is sad to lose a good trail....................

    off to ride the ruts of Eastside, then have a blast on Stonewall..............keep us posted if any new designs/trailwork come up and I'd be glad to help bring the trail back with some digging!
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  38. #38
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    Loved the original trail and didn't see the need to fixes the technical stuff while some was above my abilities was looking forward to mastering it, but as many things change is inevitable. While the trail is still fun not sure why it has to be the width of a road what happened to the single track? No disrespect to all the man hours spent out there, thanks for your hard work!
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  39. #39
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    I had a chance to ride some of the new turns. Even with compaction, stuff is still slow compared to what it will firm up to this summer. Each turn is slightly different which is nice as each one requires a distinct tactic. I am sure things will continue to be refined. I was stoked to see all the people who came out to contribute. An awesome community of people in Auburn.

    The primary line stuff everyone is working on is just the beginning. Lots of cool ideas for many more B route challenge features that are going to be included. This will be the spices for the potato dish A line. Zing! Mike from ABW and flat shoveled jumper heads will build some killer jumps etc... as optional lines. Cool that you guys have supportive shops in the area.

    Guidelines for what is acceptable and a way for people to engage legally will reduce tear outs. A win win as there are way more users than workers and no effort should be wasted.

    Tons of Private Land for out of the box eroded crazy kill you trails. Don't be an idiot and build on Public Land, just pisses law enforcement off and reduces opportunity for everyone else. State parks is most restrictive agency regarding bike access and resource protection. Proactive State Park staff are rare. You guys are stoked having this ranger donating his free time to preserve this asset. The design is a compromise for sure but the trail still rips!

    The opportunity here is developing a representative group that has the skill sets and professional look to work with local land managers. Some projects will involve compromises to design and some wont. You want more trails, stop waiting and get involved. Culvert is one mile. FTA has built 50 miles of new trail in Nevada County with no funding and we are getting better at it every project. Sweet! Why is it the only people who know what is best are complaining rather than doing?

    Only a couple more sessions left to complete the prime line before focusing on the features. Next session will be in March. If you can't come out and help...shower volunteers with praise and beer.

    Cheers

    z
    Last edited by zachi; 02-19-2013 at 12:14 PM. Reason: spelling

  40. #40
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    I to have gotten 2 days on the new improvements and have to give immense praise to all the people who put in the time to get this done! Outstanding work!!! You guys made something clean, fun, enjoyable and a place to progress. In fact, I feel completely guilty that I have not been able to make it out to a trail build day. Seeing what you have done has definitely inspired me to make it a priority for March.

    I agree that before you just stuck your bike in a hole and hoped for the best, now you can dial in your turns and transitions. Friday was great, Sunday saw quite a huge amount of traffic due to the holiday weekend which is why those corners got loose. Can't wait to see how it beds in like the first few turns you guys put it in last year.

    For those complaining, you really need to step back and realize what kind of positive reaction will come from this work and what would happen from not doing it to trails like Tinkers which is now closed to bikes.
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixquiac View Post
    Friday was great, Sunday saw quite a huge amount of traffic due to the holiday weekend which is why those corners got loose. Can't wait to see how it beds in like the first few turns you guys put it in last year.
    I feel the same. I rode the new work tuesday, 2 days after it was completed. I thought the new berms although not very tall were fast and firm. They are probably soft now from riders braking in the berm. I'm not sure where the rockgarden was that some are complaining about being removed, I can't remember there being a rockgarden?
    Sure alot of rocks were removed and the trail widend in spots. A beginner can easliy roll the small tabletops and berms, but a more advanced rider can also catch some pretty good air and get a good flow going. Seems like a good trail for beginners to build skill and confidence. I like the work overall, but I only ride it 4-5 times a year so I didn't have the old culvert memorized. Locals who had the old culvert memorized, may feel diffrent.
    Hopefully the trail firms up and maybe a couple more fun options can be added in?

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Internal14 View Post
    I for one am seriously stoked that the FTA guys and whomever else has formed a WORKING RELATIONSHIP with State Parks and reworking the trails for the better.
    Agreed. The importance of this aspect cannot be over emphasized, IMO.

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    The trail is getting sicker with each phase. I'm loving the new jump elements. Looking forward to phase 3, hopefully some drops can be added with A lines around them.

  44. #44
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    no-moto gates

    Quote Originally Posted by sminniear View Post
    I spoke with the lead ranger about the newly erected fence near the top of Stonewall. In the short term, ASRA is putting more emphasis on controlling illegal entry and use of the park by motos versus MTB flow from Old Foresthill road.

    This was done on FDLT as well and eventually the step through gates were removed ... cross your fingers that we'll see the same outcome here.
    Newly moved to Norcal (to Foresthill) so new to this forum. I wanted to share two photos i was sent by a trailbuilder friend in Colorado on a anti-moto gate put on in Mancos State Park for the same purpose that ASRA needs. It still allows you to ride over but supposedly no motos can make it and prevents livestock from exiting (not sure if that's a requirement in this situation). I can get more info for anyone in contact with ASRA staff, or if you're just interested in price, etc.
    Auburn State Recreational Area - Culvert Phase 2 trail work sign up Feb 8th - 10th-antimoto-gate.jpg
    Auburn State Recreational Area - Culvert Phase 2 trail work sign up Feb 8th - 10th-img_8650.jpg

  45. #45
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    Mixed Opinion

    I have done quite a few runs on Culvert trail in the past few weeks and here are my thoughts.

    1. if I think of the Culvert trail as a totally new trail in Auburn which...essentially it is now. I give it a high fun rating. I enjoy riding it fast and hitting the features. It almost seems shorter...because I am riding it much faster now.

    2. The old culvert trail (like 10-15 years ago) was super fun in a different way. Rocky and rutted in a few places with some nice rock gardens. Very much an old school trail with not a lot of thaught about things like "flow", drainage and overall sustainability. But it was hecka fun and not a big attraction to the shuttle riders.

    3. in the last 10 years the proliferation of DIY projects on the culvert trail left it an unsustainable mess and a battle ground between old school mountain bikers, new school down hill shuttle riders and the ASRA. Things were beginning to look bleak. I and many others began to assume that ASRA would just scrap the trail. A few years back after a fire...buldozers began to use sections of the trail as fire break and to open up a firebreak along Foresthill road. the DIY projects continued.... Goodbye Culvert Trail.

    4. what they built.....The design of this trail is certainly not what I would of liked to see in an ideal world. It is not very "Auburn" at all and has no resemblance to any other trail in Auburn.

    5. In the end it seems like a win for the MTB community because we did not lose a trail and it seems like everybody got a little bit of what they are looking for in the existing design. I am just hoping this does not become some sort of design standard for trails in the ASRA.

  46. #46
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    First I'd like to say that the culvert project has been open to anyone that wanted to help. There is a plan in action and we are going to follow it, there is still a few more phases to go through before it is complete. Thanks again to all that helped!

    Secondly the Culvert trail means a lot to me personally, you can ask anyone on the project that from the FTA crew to the Ranger managing the project. I am personally ensuring that we keep every natural feature the trail offers as well as others that have deep feelings for Culvert trail features, i.e. the rock into the tunnel, the rocks that are below the the armored turn and the rock drop etc.
    We are dedicated to this project meeting the high standards of the users, be patient it will get even better!!

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    This is for everyone that worked so hard on making this happen and moving the earth with their own time and dedication.

    P


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    Culvert changes

    Quote Originally Posted by digthemlows View Post
    It's not "flaming" or "Trolling" to come here and say it's not as fun as it used to be. We asked lots of riders about it last weekend and very few liked the changes. The berms may get better, but they are ill placed and only serve to slow you down. There are "second lines" put in around area's that don't need a second line. It might be fun on a bmx bike or a rigid bike I guess. The problem is, Culvert was always a fun trail built to challenge, if you wanted a more beginner ride there were/are many other trails around, so why "level" culvert into a boring ride and tell anyone that complains we're "haters"?? It really is sad to lose a good trail....................

    off to ride the ruts of Eastside, then have a blast on Stonewall..............keep us posted if any new designs/trailwork come up and I'd be glad to help bring the trail back with some digging!
    I have to admit, as much as I love ABW, and understand lots of people put out tremendous amounts of work to "fix" this wonderful trail, I am in agreement with the post quoted here and the group that is bummed out that we lost a fun and historical trail.

    I've also been riding this trail since around 1987. I grew up in Auburn and love the "problem solving" of real trails. For many years, my comment has been, ride the trails as they are. If there is a problem, solve it, but try to keep the character the same. I drive down from Tahoe to ride the canyon, and the culvert has been a favorite draw.

    My question is, what problem did this solve? I understood the section last year, it tried to deal w/ the washed out area, and after a few tries, seemed to work. but the new upper section off the fuel break. there wasn't any issue there. all these across the fall line turns on a "bike path", those don't solve any existing problem. They take a natural trail the has been sustainable for 20 plus years, and totally reroute it to make it smoother, easier and not interesting at all. isn't a buzzword in our love of MTB, SINGLETRACK. they plowed under great singletrack and put in wide, level, wandering bike path. flow??? riders create flow with skill, not trail designers w/ huge equipment. I'm very disappointed. The main positive I see here is that I can take my 10 and 12 year old daughters on this "bike path".
    Sorry, and I'm far from a hater, just a mountain biker who doesn't understand why people always want to change things into their version of what is right. This should have been a new trail created on different land. I was published in a mtb rag about 10 years ago, in regards to this same trail. the point, "people should ride the trails as they are." at that time, it was people building funky offshoots and jumps, and smoothing out rocky sections. Now, it's plowing the whole thing down so a cyclocross bike can ride it easily. bummer. to put out another example on this trail of one riders route being ruined for anothers line. I love to climb this trail, and have ridden it as an out and back forever, I don't like road riding, so I try to skip the clem climb and climb "singletrack". there is a large rock on the R side descending that I used to climb over, and pick down the other side. recently, someone built a mini kicker there, broke down the step up gap on to that rock, and tossed all the rocks into the rock line I have ridden for years. Ride the trail as it is I say. If you want big jumps, go to trails that have them. If you want easy wide meandering trails, go to where they are. sad.

    I guess I'll go to reno more often now, they are creating quite a network of new SINGLETRACK, where they not only keep in less then 12inch wide and leave in rocks, but they actually try to add turns to go over more rocks. yes, rocks are a good thing. Even the ride I used to call "the wife ride", foresthill devide, is more of a real mtb ride now then culvert.

    sorry, mike. I know you worked hard under very tough parameters, but I can't bite my tongue and pretend this is a good thing for an old mountain biker.

    Please tell the designers to stop taking out rocks and going around sections that have no sustainability issue to "find flow". let them know that mountain bikers like rocks and we can create flow, thanks.

    cheers,
    Holiday (wade)
    Last edited by holiday; 02-21-2013 at 11:08 AM. Reason: name

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    Quote Originally Posted by holiday View Post
    ...ride the trails as they are. If there is a problem, solve it, but try to keep the character the same.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by holiday View Post
    I'm just a mountain biker who doesn't understand why people always want to change things into their version of what is right.
    Your version? ASRA's version? Your child's version? Mountain Dew's version? An attorney's version? Too many opinions to satisfy everyone... sadly, fear of the attorney's version usually wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by holiday View Post
    This should have been a new trail created on different land.
    Bingo! There's enough land out there to keep Culvert real AND build a blow ... oops, "flow" trail.

    I wonder how much influence ASRA had in the "remodeling"? You would think there was a planning process and an approved plan prior to work being done? Sometimes trail builders are at the mercy of an out of touch govt. employee, biologist, arborist or geologist, and do the best they can under the parameters of the project.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by holiday View Post
    I have to admit, as much as I love ABW, and understand lots of people put out tremendous amounts of work to "fix" this wonderful trail, I am in agreement with the post quoted here and the group that is bummed out that we lost a fun and historical trail.

    I've also been riding this trail since around 1987. I grew up in Auburn and love the "problem solving" of real trails. For many years, my comment has been, ride the trails as they are. If there is a problem, solve it, but try to keep the character the same. I drive down from Tahoe to ride the canyon, and the culvert has been a favorite draw.

    My question is, what problem did this solve? I understood the section last year, it tried to deal w/ the washed out area, and after a few tries, seemed to work. but the new upper section off the fuel break. there wasn't any issue there. all these across the fall line turns on a "bike path", those don't solve any existing problem. They take a natural trail the has been sustainable for 20 plus years, and totally reroute it to make it smoother, easier and not interesting at all. isn't a buzzword in our love of MTB, SINGLETRACK. they plowed under great singletrack and put in wide, level, wandering bike path. flow??? riders create flow with skill, not trail designers w/ huge equipment. I'm very disappointed. The main positive I see here is that I can take my 10 and 12 year old daughters on this "bike path".
    Sorry, and I'm far from a hater, just a mountain biker who doesn't understand why people always want to change things into their version of what is right. This should have been a new trail created on different land. I was published in a mtb rag about 10 years ago, in regards to this same trail. the point, "people should ride the trails as they are." at that time, it was people building funky offshoots and jumps, and smoothing out rocky sections. Now, it's plowing the whole thing down so a cyclocross bike can ride it easily. bummer. to put out another example on this trail of one riders route being ruined for anothers line. I love to climb this trail, and have ridden it as an out and back forever, I don't like road riding, so I try to skip the clem climb and climb "singletrack". there is a large rock on the R side descending that I used to climb over, and pick down the other side. recently, someone built a mini kicker there, broke down the step up gap on to that rock, and tossed all the rocks into the rock line I have ridden for years. Ride the trail as it is I say. If you want big jumps, go to trails that have them. If you want easy wide meandering trails, go to where they are. sad.

    I guess I'll go to reno more often now, they are creating quite a network of new SINGLETRACK, where they not only keep in less then 12inch wide and leave in rocks, but they actually try to add turns to go over more rocks. yes, rocks are a good thing. Even the ride I used to call "the wife ride", foresthill devide, is more of a real mtb ride now then culvert.

    sorry, mike. I know you worked hard under very tough parameters, but I can't bite my tongue and pretend this is a good thing for an old mountain biker.

    Please tell the designers to stop taking out rocks and going around sections that have no sustainability issue to "find flow". let them know that mountain bikers like rocks and we can create flow, thanks.

    cheers,
    Holiday (wade)

    What Holiday said^^^^^^

    The Culvert is a bit of an institution in ASRA trail system. Count me as another curmudgeon that doesn't like the changes. As one who's ridden this trial for over 20 years, I'm also part of the small percentage of riders that frequently ride up the Culvert trail. This was never a problem until so called "features" started being added a few years back. Now with such radical new design (read:high speed) features, much of the "riding up" challenge is gone and almost renders this trail as downhill only.

    I realize the trail has/had needs (both environmental and political). My thoughts were of pulaski, shovel and reasoned discussion, not excavator and/or backhoe.

    And to those who like to throw around the "hater" labels and cartoons, how 'bout showing some tolerance for a different point of view.
    Last edited by mtbnutty; 02-21-2013 at 03:59 PM.

  51. #51
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    First off, thanks to everyone for the hard work!

    The new changes provide a good basic beginner trail. I did like the old school Culvert since I had been riding it for decades. After last years changes, I warned people to be careful not to over jump the tabletops that were put in (easily done). I was ok with the mix that the trail had... not so much with the most recent changes.

    Culvert used to provide improving riders with enough challenge to get all of their attention. The more experienced riders would rip down it, but still have to pay attention to avoid bouncing off the wrong thing. This new Culvert provides very little of either of those (except where the old lines still exist). After recently riding Paradise Royale, I have to ask why did we have to get so drastic on the taming of Culvert? Big sweeping turns where they really were not needed. The base trail may have flow for beginners, but past that it feels very forced. And there seems to be ride around options for every rocky option, effectively turning it into more trail sprawl than was there. So I guess I am a bit confused...

    I had the same feeling after the CCC went through and "adjusted" Darrington Trail. Luckily it only took a decade-ish to let nature fix the issues that were created.

    I think the idea of leaving Culvert in its original state (with minor corrections for drainage) and creating a completely new trail that connects in to utilize the "culvert" to pass under the road and then splitting off again would have been a better overall solution. More trails!!

    That said, what's done is done. I do hope to see more interesting features added, and perhaps a little more consideration given to safe progression options. Hopefully after the upcoming changes, I can start describing it as super fun and not just super buff.

    Thinking of a new name for the new Culvert... perhaps Nulvert?

  52. #52
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    This should be interesting...

    Quote Originally Posted by FoothillRider View Post
    Look at The Connector trail. This trail was built with rocks as *part of the trail*, not something avoided so that huge equipment can plow a wide bike path that I can just as easily ride on my cyclocross rig. Flow does not equal a cement-like bike path.
    It was? The Connector was roughed in with a tractor just like the new Culvert Trail. The few rocks on the Connector are on the only south facing slope, a very shale loaded hillside - of which a lot of rock has been revealed through wearing in of the trail. The few boneyards on the old Culvert were 10 feet wide after those rocks were revealed from wearing in and erosion - then the trail went around the rocks as most riders looked to avoid.

    All trails are built wide, then the foliage grows in and narrows the trail. That was true of the Connector Trail when it was first built as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by FoothillRider View Post
    I don't see a compromise here at all. I saw (first hand mind you) a few designers who ignored the reason Culvert was so loved in the first place and imposed their ideas for a new trail that had nothing to do with the best aspects of the existing trail. When approached, they were haughty and dismissive. Again, I saw this first hand as a *volunteer on this project*.
    On the new Culvert I see a lot of new jumps, some stunts some speed and some flow. The old Culvert was all of that, except the flow, it was just a straight line down a hill to the tunnel.

    Quote Originally Posted by FoothillRider View Post
    To claim that people who feel this way are haters and don't contribute is ridiculous. I've racked up many, many hours of volunteering in ASRA and elsewhere. Dismissing volunteers like this is indicative of the original mindset problem of the designers. My way or the highway-like-trail.
    Many hours of meetings were had, plans laid out, documents submitted. Agreement was achieved on what to do. When it is time to do the work, should the builders stop and redo the plan because a helper voiced a concern? Or does one continue with the plan and back solve the minor issues?

    BTW, thanks for your efforts and your passion. They are appreciated.

    Hating on the people who build... makes them not want to build in their free time. Think about it.

    Is the new Culvert what I want? Not exactly. But as I see it I lost a casing cutting boneyard, a few lame hucks to flat and an awkward turn for a lot of burms, bigger tabletops and a lot trail. When I dial in the flow, I'll be loving it.

    Quote Originally Posted by FoothillRider View Post
    FATRAC can learn from the experience and maybe next time bring in the crew that knows what it is doing and listens. The group that led construction of Connector would be great. Or IMBA Trail Solutions.
    IMBA has some great solutions...
    Flow Trails | International Mountain Bicycling Association


    Also, just to push this point home. We were not at the meetings establishing the goals of the trail work, and what ASRA demands that needed to be met. So we do not know the parameters of the project and therefor cannot judge the execution of the build.

    We can however judge our ride experience. Again, for me, it's better than a rutted fall line down the hill.

    You can dislike the trail and how it works with you, but don't write up a bunch of false reasons and hating on the builders, just say you aren't diggin' it.

    P
    Last edited by Mr.P; 02-22-2013 at 08:00 AM.

  53. #53
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    I can't wait to ride it...haven't been there yet this winter/spring. But I can understand the need to redo a lot of the trail which was getting pretty worn out in spots. Am I going to miss the rockgarden switchback--absolutely--but overall I think I will like the new trail as I did the old, just in a different way. As others have said, there are other important things going on here such as working with state parks to ensure and enhance trail access. If there is a slight 'give' in terms of 'natural' trail features, it is probably worth it.

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    follow up on previous post and new culvert section

    When I got back after first riding the new zig zag traversing turns at the start of the culvert, and the ride arounds of classic rock sections, I felt I had to write in this thread with a long time perspective (20plus years) on this trail and the changes. I also felt I had to follow up and see how it's going now, so I drove down the hill to see the last re route section just before the road.
    I walked it yesterday, and I have to say, at rough in, it looks really good. I believe the planners may have taken some of the volunteers feedback, as well as the boys from Auburn Bike Works and created a trail that meanders better and traverses less. I was impressed with the work I saw when i walked it yesterday. I am anticipating a great result here.

    I also thought adding some comments on what I dislike about the last section and how it could be addressed may be worthwhile.

    as a tahoe resident who skis 3 or 4 days a week, and a long time mountain biker, the idea of "braking" turns, opening up into a straight traverse is exceptionally annoying. I believe the first section off of the firebreak, into the section that was completed last year w/ the dowhill gap is exactly this, braking turns into straight traverses. To address this, the turns can be opened up, and the straights shortened and even some re directions added between the turns. you can have a couple snappy little turns in there to pump and create engagement. In extending the 2 turns, they could also be finished slightly uphill and then redirected in those pumping turns. An image I have here is the sovereign trails in Moab. Recently made, pretty smooth, but still fun. their is one section less then 50ft long w/ 5 short little turns that is many peoples favorite section. In the length of these existing straights, something like that could exist, but the "flow" stick would have to ignored. I also believe the area right above the tunnel has the traverse to braking turn feel to it and could be tweaked a bit.

    One of the things Zach with FTA said when I met him for the first time yesterday, is "it's all dirt, things can be changed", so maybe they are open to tweaking this.

    the other primary issue I had with this section was taking lot of rocks out and adding ride arounds. the little rock climb after the right hander wasn't technical, but it took foresight and skill to carry speed over it. why ride around that with a straight level trail. I personally believe that ride around should be scrapped. Right after that, there was a rocky section, and maybe that ride around is appropriate, as it was developing on it's own from people who didn't like riding the rocks, and haven't learned that rocks are fun and a big part of mountain biking. leaving that one as an option seems OK.

    Mr. P
    "So we do not know the parameters of the project and therefor cannot judge the execution of the build.
    We can however judge our ride experience. Again, for me, it's better than a rutted fall line down the hill."


    I also have to comment on a couple things Mr. P above said, as I thought they may be directed at my earlier post. yes, we can judge. Just because we don't live in the area or have a vested interest in the project like the builders and bike shops, we can have an opinion and offer feedback. These guys have reasons to go to meetings and be part of the process, those of us that this isn't our work and we have families to raise may not have time to be part of those meetings or even trailwork. We can have an opinion. I work on my local trails and you have an opinion on those I bet. I have an opinion on Moab and Northstar trails, and didn't do work on them. we can have an opinion, and we can voice it to those that are being paid to work on a project that affects our play time.

    and, degrading the confluence to a "rutted fall line downhill" is a silly insult of a classic trail that has entertained and inspired us for many years. Yes, their were areas that probably needed work, but it was far more then you have characterized it as. People (including me) wouldn't have driven hours and ridden it hundreds of times to ride it if it was "just a rutted fall line downhill", sorry.

    I also wanted to say how much I appreciate that work ABW, Mike and Pete especially, have been putting into this project. I know they were/are pissed at me for voicing my opinion so openly. that said, I believe the public feedback may help, as this latest section is looking great. I also don't think giving feedback is "hating" as has been expressed here, but much more "HOPING".

    thx,
    Wade Holiday
    N. Tahoe
    Last edited by holiday; 03-16-2013 at 10:03 AM. Reason: title

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P View Post

    On the new Culvert I see a lot of new jumps, some stunts some speed and some flow. The old Culvert was all of that, except the flow, it was just a straight line down a hill to the tunnel.
    Um, I've ridden the old culvert many times. That IS flow, a trail that's downhill that allows you to keep your speed up while making turns with features.

    A trail that switchbacks on itself every few feet to keep you from going over 15 mph is hardly "flow", when it's a predominately downhill trail IMO. Kind of the opposite...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Um, I've ridden the old culvert many times. That IS flow, a trail that's downhill that allows you to keep your speed up while making turns with features.

    A trail that switchbacks on itself every few feet to keep you from going over 15 mph is hardly "flow", when it's a predominately downhill trail IMO. Kind of the opposite...
    Don't you live in Arizona? lol. So you must be in touch with the goals of the project, right? And you have loads of experience riding the new trail, right?

    Thank you for your opinion...

    P

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P View Post

    On the new Culvert I see a lot of new jumps, some stunts some speed and some flow. The old Culvert was all of that, except the flow, it was just a straight line down a hill to the tunnel.

    P
    This sums up my feelings for the new culvert trail. Some stated that culvert is an old historical trail? I see culvert now as new and refreshing. It was ok before, but now has much better flow than before with improved jumps. The top section with back to back turns is one of my favorite sections and an excellent section to practice high speed turns. They are not braking turns, your not supposed to brake in a turn like that. It takes more skill to get through those turns at speed then it did to ride down a straight trail like it was before. I also feel these are that type of trails that gravity oriented riders get excited about. It may not be everyones "perfect trail", but I really enjoy it more now than before. Any trail that lets me practice high speed turns, pumping terrain and catching a little air is a plus in my book! Every one has thier own opinion and this is just mine. I'm not saying anyone is wrong for not liking it. I just wanted to say that not every one dislikes it.

  58. #58
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    "They are not braking turns, your not supposed to brake in a turn like that"
    fuenstock, I appreciate that you like those first 2 turns into straight, you are first I've heard. Even the designers don't like it i believe.
    yes, it is historical. i rode this trail on the first rockhopper from mid 80's. it has had staying power, interest and engagement for riders for 30 years, from rigid bikes to 8inch travel downhill bikes.

    yes, turns like that are designed to slow you down ie: "Braking turns", even if you had no brakes on your bike, these are braking turns. They are turns to distinctively take away speed. even if you manage to stick to it w/ no brakes, it will slow you down, as designed.

    cheers,
    Holiday

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    I've ridden Culvert almost weekly for the last 6-7 years, and occasionally another 5 years before that. While I'm slightly bummed the old Culvert's rocky feel has been lost, I think the bulk of the new work is pretty fun – especially the set of corners that replace the old rocky right-hand sweeper into the remaining rock garden. Those are some fun little jumps into some real ripping fun corners!

    However, the first two corners off fuel break suck. The first berm disappears into off-camberness right when you want it most, and the second turn sucks much of your remaining speed. The second section of the new-this-year corners right before the culvert are much better designed and constructed, but feel exactly like what holiday mentions above – their sole reason (and feel) is to slow you down. I think holiday's suggestions about opening up some of the corners, and maybe increasing the berm size would add some variety to the trail.

    I rode Culvert yesterday afternoon, and the section that's currently being built (last one before the road) looks and feels pretty sweet. Thanks so much to ABW, FTA, and all the volunteers for all the hard work!! Now we just need to build a bike-legal alternative to Tinker's...

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoothillRider View Post
    The best way forward would be to abandon the ideas that:

    1) All rock either needs to be removed from the trail or avoided
    2) The trail needs to be completely re-created to be as smooth and fast as a skatepark

    Taking part in the trailwork as I did, I know firsthand who kept insisting on these ideas (hint: they wear silly white hats, shirts, collect money from the project, like to operate equipment and are completely unable to listen to any idea did not come from them).

    The FATRAC volunteers on this and other ASRA projects are AWESOME. They have produced some of the best riding in the state with Connector, FHDL. I know as I've worked alongside them for years.

    Like other projects, the quality of trailkwork are largely dependent on who is given authority over the design. Clearly in this case, the aforementioned White Hats took control, while it was obvious the project was *way* over their heads. See the drainage meltdown from last winter.

    Steve M and others are great people. Suggest they step back and think about re-incorporating the best parts of the old trail: *rocks*, challenges, slower sections. And think about sending the White Hats home if they continue to ignore what makes Auburn riding so special.
    I am pretty sure that I started the whole hater bit, but it was not based on people's constructive criticism, I welcome that kind of democracy. It was based on this user, FoothillRider, who hides his identity behind a made up avatar that he created just to attack FTA on this thread. Look at his profile, nothing there, he just joined MTBR in february, and his first post was an attack. In fact, this is the only thread he has posted to. He is not engaged in constructive criticism, but coming from a place of contempt for FTA (Troll).

    He says he worked on the trail but hides his identity, Why?

    This project was a collaborative effort, and believe me when I say that there were open minds and ears when we did walk throughs and discussed what we were gonna do.

    FoothillRider obviously has a beef with FTA. This fake user is being divisive, trying to rally the blame of some peoples dissatisfaction on us. He gives praise to one part of our group, while at the same time he shoots the finger at FTA, yes that most certainly is Hating.

    This was a group effort, and we all stand behind what we did. Next time you see Steve M, or Jon B, or Mike T, ask them if FTA completely disregarded their input, I guarentee it won't sound anything like Foothillrider is portraying. This fake person can say anything they want without any accountability. They can say off base hurtful things, and we never know where it is coming from.

    Bring on your criticism, I don't have a problem with that, just be honorable enough to stand behind what you say.

    Moss Quaglia
    White Hat

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    I rode the new trail last weekend, and it is as I thought, at least for me. Different, clearly. Do I miss some of the old 'roughness' of the trail such as the rocky switchback--clearly. Is it still fun in its new form...from my point of view yes. I'm not a downhiller so the new banked turns aren't what I would look for, but as a trail user I do appreciate the work that went into this. The new trail isn't going to impact whether I will ride Auburn. At the margin I probably preferred the old trail slightly, but when I think about how lucky we are to have areas like the ASRA I just can't complain.

  62. #62
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    this has been an interesting read......I found very few riders that really "liked" the changes, and the designers/politicians of the project seem to be the only ones defending the project. It's been said by a few, but what needs to be looked at is why did it fail? It's not a terrible trail by any means, but it sure is worse that it could have been, even with the contraints. So, in the future, I hope people take the opportunitiy to learn from mistakes. Yes, I'll ride culvert, but you can bet I'll take every chance I can to take Stonewall over culvert now, where they were a little more even in the past......Culvert was "dumbed down" ........ oh well..........to a better future of riding I hope we are all headed!! Cheers everyone!
    Master of Nothing, but dammit if I don't try..............

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by digthemlows View Post
    ...but what needs to be looked at is why did it fail?
    How did it fail???

    The only thing I see that failed is communicating the goals of the project and the problems solved.

    Go git sum Stonewall! Woot!

    P

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoothillRider View Post
    It failed because the best aspects of the old trail were obliterated, when all that should have happened was to repair/armor/drain/change the unsustainable sections.

    Most people are upset with the new trail (and it is entirely a new trail) because does not offer any of the challenges and features of old trail. As someone else said, it isn't very Auburn.

    An advanced trail was replaced by a beginner trail. Which is why Stonewall now seems like a better option to some.
    *sigh*

    There were erosion, conflict and illegal stunt build issues on the Culvert. It was a problem.

    Riders were busting themselves up on some of the poorly built stunts. The ruts were deep and consistently bedded in by pinners on the saturated trail. Speaking of pinners, I run a 160mm bike down the trail, I know how fast speed got. So did ASRA.

    So there are your problems, how do you solve them in a 2 way multi-use trail environment?

    P

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    Smile

    Unfortunately the trail didn't get fixed. It got neutered.
    Last edited by pmaddy; 03-19-2013 at 12:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FoothillRider View Post
    It failed because the best aspects of the old trail were obliterated, when all that should have happened was to repair/armor/drain/change the unsustainable sections.

    Most people are upset with the new trail (and it is entirely a new trail) because does not offer any of the challenges and features of the old, much loved trail. As someone else said, it isn't very Auburn.

    An advanced trail was replaced by a beginner trail. Which is why Stonewall now seems like a better option to some.
    I thought tunnel sucked before,now there is some flow to it so thank you to all of you that helped. if you want some rocks (which are fun) go ride flood and murders!! those trails are way better than tunnel ever was.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmaddy View Post
    Unfortunately the trail didn't get fixed. It got neutered.
    Mr PMaddy,

    I believe you are in-correct. I recently rode the new section and there is in fact 1 stone left. Neutering would have required complete stone removal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dismount73 View Post
    Mr PMaddy,

    I believe you are in-correct. I recently rode the new section and there is in fact 1 stone left. Neutering would have required complete stone removal.
    So it is kind of like Lance now, some people like it some people don't but it only has one stone.

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    Being a resident of Auburn who has donated to FTA, FATRAC, supported the local shops, and have done some trail work in the past on Culvert, I didn't know what to expect with all the changes. I miss parts of the old Culvert, but enjoy the fact, that the new stuff is unlike anything else around here and am sure things will be added and tweaked with time. But as mentioned, there is Murders, flood/upper stage coach to mention a few that you can also ride. The great thing is if you don't like it, you don't have to ride it. There are lots of other trails where you can get you 500k of footies and KOM's on Strava. I appreciate all the hard work by all the parties involve.

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    Out of curiosity how do you get the murders or flood.

  71. #71
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    flood is off of stagecoach, near the top third.

    murders is off the center dh trail from where you exit connector/green gate. Sometimes called middle trail / stonewall. Stonewall is to the left after the newly built gate, murders is farther down the fireroad on the left. Both empty at the same place, most take rocky down from ranch trail.

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    Thanks for the heads up. I'll have to check those trails out.

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