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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    So after a while, people can make a choice and it will sort out between 1x and 2x. 3x is bullchit.
    I'd agree that with the wide range of gears on the 11-speed cassette, a 2X is all that's needed to extend the upper and lower gear ranges. There's way too much duplication on 3X. Nevertheless I can't find a 2X XTR that gives me the lower gears and wide range I want.

    I read that Shimano doesn't want to space out the front chain ring sizes too much (to reduce gear duplication) as it makes front shifting by the derailleur more difficult. Maybe hand shifting works better for the wider difference in chain rings?

    However, with the electronic Di2 shifting, the 3X doesn't have much a downside. Love the capability, reliability, and speed. Just did a loop in Fort Ord yesterday (Creekside, Red Rock, Ewok, Goat) which is supposed to be 1X friendly. Nevertheless, I had one of my best times ever by a big margin. The lower gearing helped me get up a lot of short sections without strain, like the steep climb on Goat just after the intersection with Jacks. I didn't have to walk that for the first time ever. The range of gears kept me moving efficiently, and kept me fresh without any extreme strain at spots. Not only did I have a dramatic jump in personal record time (~1.4X faster), I still felt fresh back at the lot, which was also unusual.
    It's not slow, it's doing more MTB time.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssalinas View Post
    Are there newer bike frames where 1x is the only option b/c of no place for front derailleur....?
    Yes, the bike designers were in a euphoric state with 1x11 as well so they optimized for tire clearance and short chainstay length by removing the front derailleur.

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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLarry View Post
    I'd agree that with the wide range of gears on the 11-speed cassette, a 2X is all that's needed to extend the upper and lower gear ranges. There's way too much duplication on 3X. Nevertheless I can't find a 2X XTR that gives me the lower gears and wide range I want.

    I read that Shimano doesn't want to space out the front chain ring sizes too much (to reduce gear duplication) as it makes front shifting by the derailleur more difficult. Maybe hand shifting works better for the wider difference in chain rings?

    However, with the electronic Di2 shifting, the 3X doesn't have much a downside. Love the capability, reliability, and speed. Just did a loop in Fort Ord yesterday (Creekside, Red Rock, Ewok, Goat) which is supposed to be 1X friendly. Nevertheless, I had one of my best times ever by a big margin. The lower gearing helped me get up a lot of short sections without strain, like the steep climb on Goat just after the intersection with Jacks. I didn't have to walk that for the first time ever. The range of gears kept me moving efficiently, and kept me fresh without any extreme strain at spots. Not only did I have a dramatic jump in personal record time (~1.4X faster), I still felt fresh back at the lot, which was also unusual.
    3x is fine... for Di2 since there's no front shifter anyway.

    The pro mods right now are using XTR Di2 with the 11-42 XT cassette. It is not Shimano certified but it works perfectly.

    The other dealio is using the XTR Di2 with the SRAM 10-42 cassette. It works well I hear.
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  4. #104
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    Here are some cool graphs on the subject.

    Tech: Deep dive on 1×10 narrow/wide conversion gearing - Mtbr.com
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  5. #105
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    I'm running 36x22 RaceFace Turbine rings with an 11x36 10-speed cassette. Most local rides and races I can stay in the big ring. Climbing out of Sierra City to Packsaddle or Dead Heifer in Tamarancho, it's 22 time.

    1x11 for me is like a having a single digit golf vanity handicap. Maybe if I lose 20 lbs.
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  6. #106
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    The fascinating new drivetrain is this:

    First Look: SRAM GX Drivetrain - Mtbr.com

    Hella cheap, 10x42 rear, 24/36 front. That is a massive range and having a 10x42 rear means you can just hang out in either front ring forever but have options when needed.

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  7. #107
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    1x and 3x have not addressed the bashguard thing properly.

  8. #108
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    There will always be sacrifices that have to be made for major drivetrain changes. I love 1x11 on my HT 29er, but on my go-anywhere/travel bike, I appreciate the range of a 2x10... and some extra suspension.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLarry View Post
    I'd agree that with the wide range of gears on the 11-speed cassette, a 2X is all that's needed to extend the upper and lower gear ranges. There's way too much duplication on 3X. Nevertheless I can't find a 2X XTR that gives me the lower gears and wide range I want.

    I read that Shimano doesn't want to space out the front chain ring sizes too much (to reduce gear duplication) as it makes front shifting by the derailleur more difficult. Maybe hand shifting works better for the wider difference in chain rings?

    However, with the electronic Di2 shifting, the 3X doesn't have much a downside. Love the capability, reliability, and speed. Just did a loop in Fort Ord yesterday (Creekside, Red Rock, Ewok, Goat) which is supposed to be 1X friendly. Nevertheless, I had one of my best times ever by a big margin. The lower gearing helped me get up a lot of short sections without strain, like the steep climb on Goat just after the intersection with Jacks. I didn't have to walk that for the first time ever. The range of gears kept me moving efficiently, and kept me fresh without any extreme strain at spots. Not only did I have a dramatic jump in personal record time (~1.4X faster), I still felt fresh back at the lot, which was also unusual.
    I hope the price of the Di2 comes way down in the future. Hey, let's see some pictures of your setup, if it's not to much trouble.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimw View Post
    ...rocketing up the climb at 2 mph...
    I'm offended. I do at least 3 mph in the cheater ring!

    And like you said, no bouncing off the granny to date for me.

    P

  11. #111
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    Love my 1x11. Went from 2x10 to 1x11 on my 29er. Have 28T chainring. The 28T chainring + 42T is higher ratio vs my lowest 2x10 and took a little getting used to. The higher 1x11 gear ratio has made me more fit and a better climber. Also replaced trigger shifters with grip shift which cleaned up the handle bar. Only things on my handle bar besides brake levers is my LEV lever and my bell.

  12. #112
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    Serious question , not trolling. What is the benefit of having the two rings that you manually get off and change, over having a deralluer? Cleanliness/lack of clutter and weight?

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Svahn View Post
    Serious question , not trolling. What is the benefit of having the two rings that you manually get off and change, over having a deralluer? Cleanliness/lack of clutter and weight?
    Exactly.

    Plus reliability; one less thing to go wrong. "Simplicity"
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Svahn View Post
    Serious question , not trolling. What is the benefit of having the two rings that you manually get off and change, over having a deralluer? Cleanliness/lack of clutter and weight?
    yeah I'm with you seems really weird to have to shift a drivetrain this way on a several thousand dollar bike, just to have free area on the left side grip for a dropper...

  15. #115
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    Your fingers are gonna get a little messy!

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Your fingers are gonna get a little messy!
    Gloves have been around for a long time.

    The Kool Kids downshift on the fly by nudging the chain off the larger ring with their heel. The really talented ones can upshift the same way. (me = neither)
    Last edited by Moe Ped; 07-11-2015 at 09:20 PM.
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  17. #117
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    1x11...I think I'm over it.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Svahn View Post
    Serious question , not trolling. What is the benefit of having the two rings that you manually get off and change, over having a deralluer? Cleanliness/lack of clutter and weight?
    Advantages are two-fold:

    Narrow/wide chainring use - the n/w chainring is one of the greatest developments in biking. So cheap and simple but it prevents chain drop.

    No left shifter. No left shifter is good when the dropper post takes up that real estate. The brain can focus the right hand on shifting and the left on dropping the saddle. It is subtle but significant.


    That being said, this mod is not for me.
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  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post
    Gloves have been around for a long time.

    The Kool Kids downshift on the fly be nudging the chain off the larger ring with their heel. The really talented ones can upshift the same way. (me = neither)
    Let me clarify: The fingers of your gloves are gonna get a little messy! Which means everything you touch is gonna get messy with a black greasy sludge. I sure as shit done want that!

  19. #119
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    Regarding benefits of manual 2x, what FC said plus front mech designed around proper chain placement and pushing all 10/11 gears with FD rubs the chain. NW ring + clutch - FD = quite and simple.

    Pitch for manual 2x is not to adjust for trail, but to adjust for physical and mental state.
    I used to run tubes like you are, but then I got thorn in my wheel.

  20. #120
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    I really like that idea of manually changing front ring, out of a narrow wide, into a regular 24 as a bailout. That sounds very enticing, to a 1 x 11 naysayer. Hmmmmm. If I switched from a front 34, to 32 Narrow Wide, leave granny on sans front mech. Sweet. I will think about that this week. Really, all week. Cause I'm a bike freak.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Let me clarify: The fingers of your gloves are gonna get a little messy! Which means everything you touch is gonna get messy with a black greasy sludge. I sure as shit done want that!
    Why you using motor oil
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  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoolie View Post
    I really like that idea of manually changing front ring, out of a narrow wide, into a regular 24 as a bailout. That sounds very enticing, to a 1 x 11 naysayer. Hmmmmm. If I switched from a front 34, to 32 Narrow Wide, leave granny on sans front mech. Sweet. I will think about that this week. Really, all week. Cause I'm a bike freak.
    You should be ready to buy a big cog too like the OneUp or Praxis cassette
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  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdrpiffle View Post
    Men's gearing. 48x36x28 up front// 11-28 in the back.
    Nah, lose the 28t, I'm just running a 48/36 - I do have an 11-30 out back though. On my 1x9 I have a 34t up front. I was never much for cadence, I had better luck mashing the biggest gears I could tolerate. In retrospect I think that's why my knees are crap now

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  24. #124
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    I recall velonews doing an article that concluded drivetrain drag was an energy cost that was high enough to raise my eyebrows. Has anyone looked at the extra drag brought on by narrow wide chainrings? My narrow wide gripped the chain for sure but sure felt draggy. ( just for Geeking out's sake)
    Edit: I don't mean drag in the air, I mean energy wasted via drag from all of the friction in the drivetrain

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Svahn View Post
    I recall velonews doing an article that concluded drivetrain drag was an energy cost that was high enough to raise my eyebrows. Has anyone looked at the extra drag brought on by narrow wide chainrings? My narrow wide gripped the chain for sure but sure felt draggy. ( just for Geeking out's sake)
    Edit: I don't mean drag in the air, I mean energy wasted via drag from all of the friction in the drivetrain
    Drag by Narrow/Wide is negligible. The real drag is caused by cross chaining. A 1x11 drivetrain has to cross chain sometimes by definition but it's not too bad. There's more wear on the 42t for example since that experiences the most cross chain. The worst cross-chain is on the big-big of 2x or 3x.

    On a 2x or 3x, you can avoid cross-chaining but you have shift more and avoid the big-big or small-small. Di2 systems can be programmed to avoid these if desired.

    Friction Facts: free speed from proper shifting - BikeRadar USA

    There is also more drag if you use a tiny front ring like a 26 or 28t. That's one of the quandries of 1x11. 28 tooth for 29er is pretty dialed. But it looks so tiny. And 28-10 high gearing is an inefficient spin.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1x11...I'm over it for hills-shift_gears_correctly_bicycle_2.jpg  

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  26. #126
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    I would expect that the drivetrain friction from the narrow-wide would decrease exponentially. Basically you're taking trail dust mixing it with lube, which is effectively a lapping compound. Since the chain side plates are steel and the ring is aluminum, it the chain should very quickly take the "wide" down to a width where there's not enough forced contact occurring to let the lapping progress, which would also mean minimum friction.

    So, geeking out, maybe you want to train with new chainrings but save the worn ones for race day.

  27. #127
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    There is pros and cons to both. With 1X11, I really like the narrow wide chain ring because so few dropped chains. I don't think I have had one dropped chain. I don't like front derailleurs or derailleurs in general.

    The con of the it is on trails that are lots of up and downs with steep climbs. Being able to drop the chain to the smaller ring quickly just before a steep climb rather than make a bunch of shifts is what I miss from the 2X as well as increased gearing range.

    What is interesting is the idea of having a 2X with no derailleur and just move the chain manually. Then for long steep climbs or different rides, you just move the chain to different chainring.

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by targnik View Post

    I'm contemplating going 32t Oval up front, as I'm curious to see if it can help on the flat and short punchy/techy climbs.
    I have been a 1X rider in one form or another for about three years. Last year I went with a Wolf Tooth 30t front chain ring driving a 11-42 (OneUp 42t) 10 speed cassette. This is bolted to my Banshee Rune V2 which is by no means a flimsy XC steed. I have climbed everything I climbed before (all over the SE...GA/NC/TN) and more (CO), but I switched to a Absolute Black 32t Oval ring about three months ago and it is even better. I really don't notice any pulsing, but my legs feel stronger and less burned out after long climbs. This BTW, has been the most bulletproof and trouble free drivetrain I have ever used in my nearly 28 years of mountain biking, FWIW.
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  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Triples are for road bikes. No, not even. Euros on road bikes. Maybe.

    The new SRAM Gx double group has more range than triples
    I had a 680% range after I modified the 3x gearing on my 1990's mtb, more than the Gx double. I could pedal it ANYWHERE.

  30. #130
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    I'm loving my 1 x 11 SRAM XX 1 Set up.
    Mostly the grip Shifter for me it works easier than the thumb shifter.
    Plenty of gear range for climbing and plenty on the flats 34 tooth up front and 10 -42 cassette.
    I will say it's not for everybody but for me I love it.
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  31. #131
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    Got no qualms with 1x. I'll stick with it. I've always hated shifting the front derailleur.

    Crosschaining will depend on your chainline. Crosschaining a 2x will be more extreme than a crank made for a 1x. You can also dial in your 1x chainline with BB spacers or chainring spacers.

    There are manufctuers that make 47.5, 49, and 50mm direct mount chainrings.

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by PauLCa916 View Post
    I'm loving my 1 x 11 SRAM XX 1 Set up.
    Mostly the grip Shifter for me it works easier than the thumb shifter.
    Plenty of gear range for climbing and plenty on the flats 34 tooth up front and 10 -42 cassette.
    I will say it's not for everybody but for me I love it.
    I'm running this same set-up and agree it is perfect for me. I'm never wanting for a gear on either end.

    This may be of interest to this discussion:

    (From July issue of Bike magazine)

    BEATDOWN
    by ryan palmer, photo: van swae

    POWER SHIFT: CAN SHIMANO’S XTR DI2 SURVIVE IN A SEA OF SINGLE RINGS? | $2,575 AS TESTED

    WHEN SHIMANO RELEASED ITS FIRST ELECTRONIC ROAD group back in 2009, people had their doubts. My friends and I–all shop mechanics at the time–insisted it was a solution to a problem that definitely didn’t exist. The shit-talking was plentiful, but within months of getting Dura-Ace Di2 in the shop, nearly every mechanic was a convert. Adjustment was simple as hell and shift accuracy, reliability and durability of the system was incredible– far better than cabled shifting. Getting a bunch of grumpy grease monkeys behind this stuff was nothing short of amazing.

    FAT TIRE ACCEPTANCE

    Let’s get the obvious out of the way: This stuff is super-expensive. You can get a solid bike for the price of just this drivetrain. The thing is, it’s not about cost–it never has been with XTR–it’s about pushing the envelope of performance. The flagship product is where all the best technologies go first, eventually trickling down to more affordable groups.

    Some folks are also concerned about the battery dying on a ride. If it does, that’s on you because the battery life is insane. I’ve been riding it for months and haven’t needed to charge it once. I can’t even remember where I put the charging cable.

    Mountain bikers have historically been far more accepting of new technologies than roadies. Threadless headsets, thru-axles and disc brakes found their way onto mountain bikes first, so you’d think that when electronic shifting finally hit the mountain bike market, people would accept the idea with open arms. But most of the riders I’ve asked about it are resistant to XTR Di2, cost aside. Why? Something happened to mountain bikes a couple years ago: SRAM made them work a whole lot better by ditching front shifting altogether. Shimano might argue that SRAM’s singlering setup doesn’t offer enough gear range, but the marketplace disagrees. Look at nearly any high-end mountain bike today and chances are it has a one-by drivetrain. Di2 is offering the best front shifting of all time at a time when everyone just wants it to go away. You can run Di2 as a single ring–Shimano makes a dedicated oneby crank–but you’d miss out on a ton of the technology Di2 has to offer. Plus, you wouldn’t get the same range as you do with SRAM.

    Hesitation about front derailleurs aside, I was curious about the system, especially the Synchronized Shift feature, which allows the use of one shifter to control both derailleurs.

    ONES AND ZEROS

    Shimano’s E-tube Project software lets you create Syncro shift maps–based on any number of riding styles or conditions–that tell the system at what gear on the cassette you want the front derailleur to shift. The system will hold two Syncro shift modes that you can toggle between using the button on the display. The default Syncro modes will take you from the easiest to the hardest gear without making a very large jump in cadence. You can change that a bit, but it won’t let you get stupid, like having five makeup shifts in the back while the front is shifting. The more you ride it, the more ideas you may have to reprogram the shift maps. Or you can always just leave it alone. Unfortunately, the E-tube Project software only runs on a Windows machine, which is just plain outdated.

    DI2 IN ACTION

    Having experience with road Di2, I wasn’t surprised to find the XTR shifting to be excellent, but the Synchronized Shift thing was a new beast. Even though I only had one shifter to worry about, my brain couldn’t detach from the idea that I needed to control the front shifting. I found myself lost in the 22 gears after having gotten used to 11. After several rides I started coming around.

    In reality, Syncro mode takes you through the entire gear range in just 12 shifts, two more than an 11-speed single ring–the complexity is merely perceived. The front shifting works so seamlessly that the most amazing thing started happening: The front derailleur shifted without me even realizing it. Think about that for a moment– Shimano made front shifting so perfect that it can happen without the rider noticing. Is SRAM more ingenious for getting rid of front shifting, or is Shimano for taking it out of the thought process? I don’t know, but the ride experience is relatively the same: A system that lets you focus on the riding.

    The rear derailleur had no problem shrugging off a couple impacts hard enough to scratch it up and bend the hanger. If you were to put the Di2 and mechanical derailleurs in a ring together, the Di2 would win every time. It’s far more robust and has less slop than its cabled counterpart. Chain retention is actually quite good, and I feel pretty confident that after a rowdy descent the chain will still be on the ring I left it on. The system can be a bit louder than a single ring, but it’s the quietest multi-ring system I’ve ridden by a long shot. The 26-36 double chainring and 11-40 cassette provided plenty of gear range for all-day rides.

    Since there’s no mechanical movement necessary, Shimano designers could make the shifters look and feel however they wanted. Thankfully, they chose to make a lever, as opposed to a simple button. The levers have actual throw and an indented click for each shift. The levers themselves are tactile and feel like they’re worth the coin, but the plastic-bodied shifter feels less than robust, and the 2-mil hex set-screw has a tough time securing the shifter to the bar.

    Regardless, shifting feels the same, no matter the conditions. With mechanical shifting, chain tension can affect how hard it is to push the shifter. With Di2, it’s always the same. If you click the lever twice, the derailleur will shift twice, no matter what. Shifting is dead-accurate every time, even if you’re powering up a climb. It’s absolutely amazing. Your current shifting might be good, but this stuff is on a whole different level. Do you need it? No. But you don’t need full-suspension or disc brakes either.

  33. #133
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    I got my 1x9 setup and I've had issues with it :P

    Bike still rides and so what if I run out of gears... not really too stressed about it. Maybe I'm in the wrong spot to be saying this, but I feel like if you care about biking you should just bike and not give a hell whats slapped on the spinny bits as long as they stay spinning.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdrpiffle View Post
    Men's gearing. 48x36x28 up front// 11-28 in the back.
    Hmmm. I guess the woman's ratio is 32X16. *drops mic*

  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Instigator View Post
    I got my 1x9 setup and I've had issues with it :P

    Bike still rides and so what if I run out of gears... not really too stressed about it. Maybe I'm in the wrong spot to be saying this, but I feel like if you care about biking you should just bike and not give a hell whats slapped on the spinny bits as long as they stay spinning.
    There's two kinds of bikers in this world. Some who don't care about their bikes and will ride anything pretty well. And some who care about their gear and making sure it's dialed for them.

    There's room for both.
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  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post
    Gloves have been around for a long time.

    The Kool Kids downshift on the fly by nudging the chain off the larger ring with their heel. The really talented ones can upshift the same way. (me = neither)
    Ha! I am envisioning trying to do that with my foot while riding. I can see it leading to an ER visit as my foot goes into the chainring.

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by IP_Ale View Post
    This may be of interest to this discussion:

    (From July issue of Bike magazine)
    POWER SHIFT: CAN SHIMANO’S XTR DI2 SURVIVE IN A SEA OF SINGLE RINGS? | $2,575 AS TESTED
    Thanks for the article - very interesting. This Bike Magazine article complements and supports other reviews by MTBR and other sources.

    I agree with most everything, but have a couple additional comments. Each front chain ring adds 2 more non-redundant gear steps within the programming. So in "synchro" or single shifter mode, what you get effectively is:

    Mech -> Equivalent Di2 "Synchro" 1X system with removal of redundant gears
    1x11 -> 1x11 (Di2 only speeds up rear derailleur)
    2x11 -> 1x13 (As cited by the article )
    3x11 -> 1x15 (The triple greatly broadens out the range, with smooth shifting steps.)

    To clarify the article, it's possible to instantly shift once or twice per shift, depending on how hard you push the shifter to get a second click.

    The article also neglected to mention the multi-shifting mode, an extension of double shift to N-shifts (if that programming option is chosen) by keep holding down the shift lever. Works great with Synchro mode to go through all 15 gear ratios rapidly and smoothly. I use this feature frequently to rapidly jump through a lot of gears and near instantly get to just the right gear by the feel under my pedal under force, then let go. As said before, it's like having a CVT on a bike.

    I would also agree with the article in that I also find the front shifting is so fast and smooth, I barely notice the shift. I only know which chain ring I'm in by looking down out of curiosity.

    The chain tension is adjusted much tighter with Di2, more than any mechanical shifting system would accept. This keeps the chain quiet and prevents slapping and dropping. Much nicer than my mechanical XT drive train.

    As for reliability, in thousands of shifts (I ride and shift gears a LOT), I initially had a few times where the shifting didn't go right (usually when the rear shifted but front hanged), and I had to shift back and try again to be successful. After these initial few days, I adjusted the front derailleur with the LBS mechanics and computer for better alignment, and got great improvement. I've only had poor shifts a couple times since then, again out of thousands of shifts. I expect with a little better alignment to get that miss rate to zero.

    Of course not everyone needs more gear ratios, and some like single speeders don't need shifting all. But for those like me wanting no compromise in gear range, and smooth, rapid, reliable, simple operation, the Di2 is a great solution. It's just that the price needs to come down for more acceptance, which it surely will as the technology migrates to the lower price lines as it develops over the years. I suspect Shimano is still in test mode for the technology improvement and market demand for MTB.
    Last edited by BigLarry; 07-12-2015 at 06:19 PM.
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  38. #138
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    I've been trying various combinations of 1x hacks lately. Started with my fat bike as I needed 1x to clear a really large rear tire. 28t front, 11-42t rear with a OneUp. Burned the OneUp out fast riding in snow. Ripped teeth off a Wolftooth 42t within a few weeks. Folded a Hope giant cog on the first ride.

    Similar experience on my Tracer275. Giant cogs just wear out too fast.

    For me, I want an 11-40 all steel 10 speed cassette. I'll run 26/34t shifting rings up front. Tried manual 2x but the terrain was too variable and I was stopping to shift too much. Back to a shifter.

    2x11 Shimano intrigues me, especially the synchro shift. I'll wait for the trickle down XT model though. XTR Di2 is just too expensive.

  39. #139
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    I've been running 1x10 for a few months, now. 38 front and 11x36 back running 29er wheels. I can almost climb any hill I can see but I sometimes wish I had that extra bit of low end... I want to try out a 2x but I'd put like a 42x34 front. I hate not hitting those high speeds like on my old setup! I'm kinda a small guy.. six foot one but I only weigh 50 pounds. That's probably why I can still run that. :P

  40. #140
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    1x11...I think I'm over it.

    One can mimic either end of the spectrum of a 2x on a 1x. For those of us in BC it's the lower gears for sure. 3 things I personally don't like about running a 30t f 13-42t r.

    -The poorer performance of the suspension action with a smaller chainring. (In flatter parts of the world this can be entirely mitigated by running a larger chainring)
    -Missing that last bail out gear for those long grinds up. (Can be mitigated by running a smaller chainring, at the expense of the first point).
    -Quick climbing/descending changes for those rolling trails. (It's possible to dump 2 gears at a time with xt or better shifters and to gain multiple gears but it's still not as quick as a front derailleur.


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  41. #141
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    Funny how dudes and dudets on single speeds can ride everything but 11 gears is not enough for some.

    One could always slap one of the new 44t replacement cogs on the xx1 cassette.

  42. #142
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    $2,575 as tested

    Quote Originally Posted by BigLarry View Post
    Thanks for the article - very interesting. This Bike Magazine article complements and supports other reviews by MTBR and other sources.
    Hey Larry; since you've been there/done this---is the "$2,575 AS TESTED" about right for what these components cost?

    I'm sure the cost will come down some eventually; but that's just way over what I'd put into a bike
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  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post
    Hey Larry; since you've been there/done this---is the "$2,575 AS TESTED" about right for what these components cost?

    I'm sure the cost will come down some eventually; but that's just way over what I'd put into a bike
    Hard to say, since it depends on what you compare it to. But in general, the price for the Di2 fit comfortably into my $10K Santa Cruz Bronson, with carbon frame, Nox carbon wheels and top of the line fork (Pike RCT3 Dual Position) and shock (CC DBair).

    First, here's what I personally paid for the Di2 electronic drive train at Evans, Chain Reaction, and Jenson's. With some international shopping, I typically got about 30% or more off list price. The Euro exchange rate isn't quite as good now, so it'll be a little higher now. Note that with Evans and Chain Reaction, where I bought the most expensive items, there was no tax and free shipping, so this part price is the total final price.

    Front Derailleur Shimano XTR Di2 FD-M9050 3x11 $248.32
    Rear Derailleur Shimano XTR Di2 RD-M9050 11 Speed SGS $397.32
    Shifter Shimano XTR Di2 SW-M9050 11 Speed $173.99
    Shift Display Shimano XTR Di2 SC-M9050 Display $98.99
    Battery (Di2) Shimano SM-BTR2 $129.99
    Junction Box B Di2 SM-JC41 Junction B Box $29.99
    Cables Shimano Di2 cables EW-SD50 $100.00
    Battery Charger Shimano SM-BCR2 $99.99
    TOTAL
    $1,278.59
    So the total for electronic Di2 shifting might only be $500-$900 more than a mechanical shifting system. Not that bad really.


    But the Di2 only works with the XTR M9000 mechanics. So you may want to add those or not for the relative price, depending on if you wanted XTR anyway. Here's what I paid - again, well below list price.
    Crankset Shimano XTR FC-M9020-3 (40/30/22) $409.99
    Mount Sinmano Front Mech Di2 High clamp $22.99
    Cassette Shimano XTR CS-M9000 11 Speed $188.72
    Chain Shimano XTR CN-HG900-11 $33.99
    TOTAL
    $655.69
    So the XTR versus XT price may only be a few hundred dollar difference. Again, not too bad.

    Also, the weight difference is close to a wash relative to the mechanics. The higher weight of the motors in the derailleur is offset by the lighter electronic cables. Since I only use one shifter in synchro mode, it believe the Di2 system is lighter than a mechanical 3x11.
    It's not slow, it's doing more MTB time.

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLarry View Post
    First, here's just the what I personally paid for the Di2 electronic drive train at Evans, Chain Reaction, and Jenson's. With some international shopping, I typically got about 30% or more off list price. The Euro exchange rate isn't quite as good now, so it'll be a little higher now. Note that with Evans and Chain Reaction, where I bought the most expensive items, there was no tax and free shipping, so this part price is the total final price.
    Thanks Larry; that $2575 sounds correct for MSRP then.

    The only # I choked on was the $99 for the battery charger---that's a gouge...

    But "fly-by-wire" makes sense; it's everywhere now. Maybe we should ask why did it take so long for bikes? Traditionalism?

    When the price come down to mechanical I'll consider it...
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  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post
    Thanks Larry; that $2575 sounds correct for MSRP then.

    The only # I choked on was the $99 for the battery charger---that's a gouge...
    Assuming you add in the XTR mechanics along with the Di2 shifting system, the MRSP could be $2575. But who pays that? And you need to take the difference between Di2 system pricing and whatever alternative you'd use.

    In general, I'd say going to Di2 adds about $1K, assuming you were already thinking of a reasonable quality mechanical alternative like XT grade.

    The SM-BCR2 battery charger is a connection from a USB port on your computer to a special port on the display. The SM-BCR2 also has inline electronics to program, and update the firmware on each component (derailleurs, shifters, display). It cannot do error diagnostics, which needs the $170 SM-PCE1 interface, also used to charge the Di2 road bikes. For what the programmer/charger/interface cable does, it's not horrible pricing.

    Also, the electronic cables are about $20 each for ~4 needed. I let my LBS order those since they need to be installed at just the right fixed length, which indeed took them a couple tries. Thus my price on those is approximate. The cables have very nice water tight connectors, capable of standing up to water and mud. And my LBS put the battery and junction box well sealed within the seat post, through the Bronson stealth cable port along with the hydraulic cable for my Reverb Stealth dropper post.
    It's not slow, it's doing more MTB time.

  46. #146
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    Id get this DI2 in a heart beat. As soon as its wireless. My guess is XT will get wired di2 next year and xtr will go wireless?

  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek200 View Post
    Id get this DI2 in a heart beat. As soon as its wireless. My guess is XT will get wired di2 next year and xtr will go wireless?
    I like wired as I only need to charge one battery (with status indicator), not four for each separate component (derailleurs, shifters, display,...). Once in place, the smaller electronic wires are almost invisible.

    However, I'm also looking forward to wireless display information that can work with my Garmin Edge 1000 (like on the road bike wireless Di2). The Edge 1000 can show what gear I'm in as one of the data fields, and other things like display the gear on Garmin Connect graphs along with elevation, cadence, and heart beat, and count up how many times I shift, and so on.

    It might be a year or two for wireless and trickle down. It took Shimano a year to make these Di2 parts available even after announcing them all over the world.
    It's not slow, it's doing more MTB time.

  48. #148
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    10-44 cassette would give all the range I need. Right now, I suffer too much in granny with a 2x10 to even think about 1x system. The one time I rode one it was pretty slick though.

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  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek200 View Post
    Id get this DI2 in a heart beat. As soon as its wireless. My guess is XT will get wired di2 next year and xtr will go wireless?
    If they go wireless it will go on the road bikes first.

    I'm using the wired system and it's really seamless so there's no need for wireless. It's all internally cabled. I think it's harder for install but that's a mechanic's job anyway. After it's installed perfectly, one will hardly notice the tiny, weatherproof, detachable wires at the ends.
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  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    If they go wireless it will go on the road bikes first.

    I'm using the wired system and it's really seamless so there's no need for wireless. It's all internally cabled. I think it's harder for install but that's a mechanic's job anyway. After it's installed perfectly, one will hardly notice the tiny, weatherproof, detachable wires at the ends.
    A wireless transmitter (Shimano SM-EWW01) is already available ($91.90) for the road bike Di2 system, but only for transmitting the Di2 status to an external device (like a bike computer or GPS), not for Di2 control of gears. And not clear if it works with the MTB Di2. I might give a try to see if works on communicating with the Garmin Edge 1000, or maybe wait a little longer for an official MTB Di2 version.

    Agree on seamless integration of the small electronic wires with good connectors. And like I said before, having wires means only one battery to worry about charging (and your 'friends' won't hack your gearing so they can win).
    It's not slow, it's doing more MTB time.

  51. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    After it's installed perfectly, one will hardly notice the tiny, weatherproof, detachable wires at the ends.
    Your riding mates will notice the wires for sure... that's the first thing they will try to sabotage on your new rig )

  52. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by syl3 View Post
    Your riding mates will notice the wires for sure... that's the first thing they will try to sabotage on your new rig )
    Well shifter wires can be finagled even easier. And I'd be more wary about appearance of a slow leak in the hydraulic cables. Overall, neither is generally a concern for me particularly, by already being one of the slowest riders, a natural defense.
    It's not slow, it's doing more MTB time.

  53. #153
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    You have hit on the nirvana solution.

  54. #154
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    Dropper lever zone.... Making room.

    Might sound silly but the main reason I lost the FD is to clear a nicer spot for my dropper lever. I really like the quite too.

    Kept the granny ring and do a manual shift for that occasional super long climb.

    Unofrtuantely 20 plus years on a double/triple, my left hand is very confused after loosing the FD. The amount of time my left thumb searches for a lever to dump a bunch of gears at once is suprizing and I do miss it.

    I am convinced, from a "mechanical" perspective, a 2x is superior. It results in a more even utilization on the rear cassette. Even before the 1x became popular it'd be rare to see cassettes with the lower half of the cogs worn out. Now you are going to see a lot of cassettes in tossed dumpsters with most of the cogs still like new.

    Anyone find a better way to address the dropper post lever issue, other than removing the front shifter?

  55. #155
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    The "right" gear

    I like being in the "right" gear and I probably shift more than about anybody for two reasons: my knees hurt a lot on climbs and I stay in the lowest gear that gives me the least pain, and coming from a running background I also like to keep an even pace. My ride yesterday was the identical one I used to test if I could do 1x11 when they first came out. I made up the gear chart below using Sheldon Browns site and tried riding in the various gears on climbs.

    Bottom line: I need that 1.32 granny ratio! I couldn't even do the 1.4, which would take a 28 up front on a 1x11. And look what I'd be giving up on the top end. My first 2x10 29er had a 34 up front and it wasn't big enough for me. My current 22 and 36 are perfect for what I ride. I posted the following statement in a recent SS discussion and it is just as appropriate here: "Depends on what types of trails you ride, your riding preferences, age, fitness, knee health, etc."

    And by the way, I just bought a new car with a 6 speed manual transmission and I like shifting. To each their own.

    1x11...I'm over it for hills-bike-gears.jpg

    1x11...I'm over it for hills-tahoe-7-12-15.jpg

  56. #156
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    Tahoe?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigLarry View Post
    Got the Shimano electronic Di2 drive train on my new Santa Cruz Bronson. Riding every day for a month now. ... With my ~100 miles/week and constant shifting, the battery is less than 1/3 down now after a month. I
    Love to see your setup. With all that riding surely you must be ready to finally ride Tahoe?

  57. #157
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    Anyone else still rocking a 3x10? Gotta have those low granny gears so I can climb without wrecking my knees. Need the big ring for the road, because I nearly aways ride to the trailhead. Once in a blue moon I hit the dropper post control when I meant to downshift, but I can live with that.

  58. #158
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    This is a great idea! Why NOT do it if you're already running 1x10?

  59. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Svahn View Post
    Serious question , not trolling. What is the benefit of having the two rings that you manually get off and change, over having a deralluer? Cleanliness/lack of clutter and weight?
    Good question.

    For me, the cheater gear provides the best of both worlds of a single and a double.
    + chain retention without devices or bash
    + always in the correct front gear
    + lighter bike (I don't care for climbing, just for catching air and tossing the bike around)
    - stop to change front gear

    With at 30x42 single gearing, I can climb most anything. But the question is how much energy to I want to expend? The cheater ring allows me to do climbs at a more mellow pace and conserve energy for a big ride, like some Sierra rides. Stopping at the base of a big climb and at the top is pretty standard for most rides for regrouping.

    If you already live in the Sierra, 2x probably makes more sense.

    Like everything in this world, it has pros and cons, and you need to see how it fits with your fitness and terrain.

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  60. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    Anyone else still rocking a 3x10? Gotta have those low granny gears so I can climb without wrecking my knees. Need the big ring for the road, because I nearly aways ride to the trailhead. Once in a blue moon I hit the dropper post control when I meant to downshift, but I can live with that.
    I do! I use a 22/32/40 - just for my XC endurance race bike though. I need the low gear for steep climbs/saving my energy, and the big gear for getting the boring flat forest road sections over quickly.

    I also like just riding for the purpose of fun on the downhills, (not real DH riding - I guess AM/Enduro riding), and have a different bike for that with the old 2x10 still. I think a 1x might be ideal for that, but like squashyo is saying, there are some steep climbs at a place like Demo, and if you want multiple runs you might be dying for a lower gear.
    Last edited by shredchic; 07-13-2015 at 11:10 AM.
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  61. #161
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    So, it appears that one size drivetrain does not fit all.

    Wow, I never would have guessed with all the marketing hype and bike mfg designing frames with no way to mount a FD
    Lead by my Lefty............... right down the trail, no brakes.

  62. #162
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    I don't have one drivetrain at home: 3X9 (29er Main Commute/Fireroad), 3X9 (29er Fireroad), 3X10 (26 actual mountain bike). More is better. Going 1X or 2X would require buying new stuff, no way.
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  63. #163
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    One thing i will not run is a big ring without a bash guard. Injuries are quite gruesome.

  64. #164
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    This 1x IMO is a huge marketing gimmick and I hate that so many MTBers have jumped on the bandwagon. You have the gear ratio nerds popping out their charts to show you the benefits of it. How can we go 3+ decades of the majority of bikers using 2 and 3 rings to all of a sudden going back to 1 ring? SRAM must be laughing all the way to the bank.

    I have 3 rings and use them all. Whether I am on a tough technical climb or just getting my wind back after one, I want to be in a gear that works for me not because SRAM thinks that it works for me.

    Soon SRAM will come up with a 2x system which is just as quiet and lightweight as the XX1 and like a tide everybody will be switching over after having parted with a boat load of cash.

    As for the dropper. Just get creative. Most manufacturers have spent a lot of time thinking about how the lever would be actuated therefore have designed it so that it works for a variety of different configs.
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  65. #165
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    Big fan of the manual shift. As mentioned, better chain retention with narrow-wides. No noise. No clutter. No being in the wrong chainring in a tough spot.

    I run a 30 NW and 36 NW with my 11-40 OneUp. I'm not Gwin, so the 36x11 is necessary when at the bike park, otherwise I'd probably run 34 instead. If I need easier gearing than that, it's often faster and easier to walk. The 30 in the front is nice for those up/down trails. When you have downhills mixed in on the long climbs, I'm usually not trying to go as fast as possible (trying to conserve energy), so only having a 30x11 has never really been a problem. Can't remember ever spinning out on a break in a climb.

    If I used a real granny like a 22-26, I'd be annoyed in the flats or slight downhills on climbs and would have to hassle with thinking about if I want to be in the small or big chainring.

    Shimano's electric system is interesting, but the 11-speed stuff is crazy expensive. I do ride about 5x a week, but I tend to destroy a rear derailleur about 2-3x a season. I'm already on #3 right now and I haven't even been downhilling much. Thank god I'm still on 10-speed and am only shelling out ~$50/derailleur.

  66. #166
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    Has anyone done strength comparisons for 10-spd vs. 11-spd chains?

  67. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    Anyone else still rocking a 3x10? Gotta have those low granny gears so I can climb without wrecking my knees. Need the big ring for the road, because I nearly aways ride to the trailhead. Once in a blue moon I hit the dropper post control when I meant to downshift, but I can live with that.
    I'm still riding a 3x10 and even though I like the idea of having a 1x11 I still rather have my 3 chain rings just because I can.
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  68. #168
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    I'm very happy with the range, performance and simplicity of my 1x11.

  69. #169
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    I just put a 38t X 11-40 on the 26" bike and 36t 10-42 on the 650b.

    Stuff I fumbled up in a 32t was no problem in the man gears. Not even as winded.
    I must have diesel in my veins!

  70. #170
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    Have 1x11 on both of my MTB's...my race hardtail that is generally set up with an oval 36T or 34t in front, and my 5.5" FS trail bike, with a 32t.

    I see no reason (for me) for any additional gearing and I love the simplicity. Where the front shifter should be is my dropper post lever. I use my dropper so much, it's kind of become a proxy for front shifting. i.e. Hit a climb and instead of using my left hand to shift the front, my left hand raises the seat back up. And opposite for the downhill, instead of my left thumb shifting into a big front chainring, it drops the post.

    Prior to this, I was pretty much exclusively a single speeder. single speeding everything from long endurance rides in Tahoe to SS racing. So from that viewpoint, having a 1x11 seems like all I need. I can see if coming from the opposite direction (i.e. 3x setup) that 1x would seem like a step backward.

  71. #171
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    1x11...I'm over it for hills-gearing.jpg

    I realize riders wouldn't always shift from lowest gear through all the gears to top gear on a 2x10 and might instead use the gearing as two 10 gear/ratio ranges. But if they did - bottom gear to top gear - through all the gears, it would be 64 shifts. My thumbs hurt thinking about it.

  72. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wherewolf View Post
    ...My ride yesterday was the identical one I used to test if I could do 1x11 when they first came out. I made up the gear chart below using Sheldon Browns site and tried riding in the various gears on climbs.

    Bottom line: I need that 1.32 granny ratio! I couldn't even do the 1.4, which would take a 28 up front on a 1x11. And look what I'd be giving up on the top end.
    By comparison, here's the new XTR M9000 3x11 gearing. If you like going down to 1.32, how about 1.2? And if you like that, how about an additional lower 1.1 gear ratio? And that's with a higher 7.1 ratio on top side.

    It's really nice having all the fine shades of low gearing. No hill scares me anymore with this weapon.

    I really like having that so-slow-fat-ladies-walking-their-poodles-pass-me-saying-don't-worry-you'll-make-it gear!


    1x11...I'm over it for hills-bronson-gears.jpg
    It's not slow, it's doing more MTB time.

  73. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wherewolf View Post
    Love to see your setup. With all that riding surely you must be ready to finally ride Tahoe?
    I'm doing shorter 20 mile 2500' daily rides just fine, and about 50% faster between getting smaller and the new Bronson. I still need to go longer to test for your typical 35+ miles, 5000'+ rides. It doesn't help I'm spending 2-3 weeks/month in CT, designing lasers for a billionaire's unicorn startup. Just bought a second bike (Giant Trance) for there which helps keep my fitness. But there's no big hills there, just very technical with logs, drops, rocks,...

    Here's the Bronson. Later I'll post some detailed pictures soon of the Di2 setup in a more appropriate thread and link here.
    1x11...I'm over it for hills-bronson-anza-pic.jpg
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  74. #174
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    1 chain ring = 2 cassette gears

    Quote Originally Posted by aliikane View Post
    The con of the it is on trails that are lots of up and downs with steep climbs. Being able to drop the chain to the smaller ring quickly just before a steep climb rather than make a bunch of shifts is what I miss from the 2X as well as increased gearing range/
    A typical chain ring spacing is bout 30% increase in tooth number for efficient shifting. A typical cassette is about 15% jump in tooth number. So dropping a chain ring is like a shift of two cassette gears. That's why each increase of a chain ring only adds 2 more unique gears each in the Di2 synchro mode as mentioned above.

    As such, doing a rapid shift of the rear derailleur might be about as fast as dropping the chain ring. (Especially with Di2 speed which does both simultaneously.)

    The large 22/36 chain rings of Wherewolf's 2x10 has a 63% jump, or four gears worth. But that's a pretty big jump which is unusual. The new XTR M9020 series only does 24/34 or 26/36 type combinations.
    It's not slow, it's doing more MTB time.

  75. #175
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    Marketing have little to do with it. Unless you are talking about $300 cassette thing.
    Some run 1x9 for long time, then two things happened: rear mech capacity enabled bigger cogs and cranks took smaller ring than 32t.

    My cost of upgrade was minimal. I used to run SRAM 9sp, so I just changed RD to Shimano 10sp with clutch, 10sp 36t cassette when old worn out. On my trail rig I put 30t NW ring as an extra bonus.

    So it was more evolutionary than revolutionary and on the cheap as well. I went for Deore level RD on DH rig, since I bust RD time to time anyway.
    I used to run tubes like you are, but then I got thorn in my wheel.

  76. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by xlash View Post
    This 1x IMO is a huge marketing gimmick and I hate that so many MTBers have jumped on the bandwagon. You have the gear ratio nerds popping out their charts to show you the benefits of it. How can we go 3+ decades of the majority of bikers using 2 and 3 rings to all of a sudden going back to 1 ring? SRAM must be laughing all the way to the bank.
    I thought 1x was mostly a grass-roots thing initially, with the manufacturers getting on board later. I don't know why you hate what other riders are using, but many riders prefer 1x. I am one of them; for me personally it is a huge improvement. BTW, SRAM will be laughing all the way to bank regardless as long as people have disposable income.

    Quote Originally Posted by xlash View Post
    I have 3 rings and use them all. Whether I am on a tough technical climb or just getting my wind back after one, I want to be in a gear that works for me not because SRAM thinks that it works for me.
    Good for you, rock on! Going 1x because it works best for me would be just as dumb as me going 3x because it works best for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by xlash View Post
    Soon SRAM will come up with a 2x system which is just as quiet and lightweight as the XX1 and like a tide everybody will be switching over after having parted with a boat load of cash.
    That's fine if they do, but I won't be buying one, or 1x11 for that matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by xlash View Post
    As for the dropper. Just get creative. Most manufacturers have spent a lot of time thinking about how the lever would be actuated therefore have designed it so that it works for a variety of different configs.
    Not that it's a big deal, but with 2 levers next to the grip, you are going to have to do some degree of thumb stretching no matter how creative you get. In addition you can't operate both at the same time.

  77. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stalk View Post
    Marketing have little to do with it. Unless you are talking about $300 cassette thing.
    Some run 1x9 for long time, then two things happened: rear mech capacity enabled bigger cogs and cranks took smaller ring than 32t.

    My cost of upgrade was minimal. I used to run SRAM 9sp, so I just changed RD to Shimano 10sp with clutch, 10sp 36t cassette when old worn out. On my trail rig I put 30t NW ring as an extra bonus.

    So it was more evolutionary than revolutionary and on the cheap as well. I went for Deore level RD on DH rig, since I bust RD time to time anyway.
    No man, what really made 1x happen is:

    Narrow/Wide chainrings - The really work like magic and retain the chain like nothing ever has. No added friction too. And the technology was not patent-able so everyone was able to copy it and make it available.

    Clutch derailleurs - Designed to reduce chainslap, they worked like magic with Narrow/wide rings
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  78. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by xlash View Post
    This 1x IMO is a huge marketing gimmick and I hate that so many MTBers have jumped on the bandwagon.
    Why do you care if others jump on a bandwagon? The other options are still available, and are cheaper and in less demand...no problem for you to get them. As to it being a "marketing gimmick", Shimano basically was pulled into the market kicking and screaming.....pulled by consumer demand for 1x. That is the way consumers wanted to go, so the two companies met demand...SRAM anticipated the market movement, Shimano had no choice but to react or get crushed. Lot's of little companies (OneUp, Wolftooth, Praxis etc.) with no or very few marketing dollars reacted before Shimano and picked up some dollars through the unmet consumer demand for moderate priced options, which was off the charts for 1x. Nobody had to market anything really here...they met the consumer demand. People like light, simple, reliable...1x has that. I still run 2x, but I am not an idiot to not realize that the market is going to 1x quickly, and that is because it is a better system for most people for how they want and like to ride.

  79. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLarry View Post
    The large 22/36 chain rings of Wherewolf's 2x10 has a 63% jump, or four gears worth. But that's a pretty big jump which is unusual. The new XTR M9020 series only does 24/34 or 26/36 type combinations.
    Front shifting has been inferior for many reasons but things are improving:

    1) The 14 tooth jump that you state, 22/36 is stupid. It is a huge jump for cadence and it was terrible for shifting performance up or down. The new systems have a much better 10-tooth jumps now. This is made possible by wider range cassettes

    2) Chainrings have been the playground of many bling, aftermarket or big brand chainring vendors. Unfortunately, they had little understanding of the chainring hardness and shift ramps required to perform good shifts under power. This is a much better arena now with forged chainring manufacturers.

    3) Front derailleurs have been plagued by lack of stiffness. The derailleurs and mounts have been flexy. This is improved now with direct mount and newer side swing front derailleurs. These improve cable leverage and improve tire clearance as well.


    And with Di2, that consistent shifting force is always as needed. But even without electronic, front shifting is better now than before.
    So, it is a better day for front derailleurs.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1x11...I'm over it for hills-download.jpg  

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  80. #180
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    I looked into it, but just can't part with my 2x setup (22,36 up front). When I ran out the numbers, even putting a 30t up front I would still loose 2 climbing gears. To many steep hills to consider 1x11 around here for me.
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  81. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    No man, what really made 1x happen is:

    Narrow/Wide chainrings - The really work like magic and retain the chain like nothing ever has. No added friction too. And the technology was not patent-able so everyone was able to copy it and make it available.

    Clutch derailleurs - Designed to reduce chainslap, they worked like magic with Narrow/wide rings
    I was rocking 1x9 on my XC setup well before that. While NW are nice, I had MRP XC guide. I do agree that NW + clutch made it for easy setup, but gear range was crucial for viability. This thread is a proof that even with extended range 1x10 and 1x11 are offering today, it's not for everyone. Try it when 32x34 was a limit.
    I used to run tubes like you are, but then I got thorn in my wheel.

  82. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfrink View Post
    I looked into it, but just can't part with my 2x setup (22,36 up front). When I ran out the numbers, even putting a 30t up front I would still loose 2 climbing gears. To many steep hills to consider 1x11 around here for me.
    That right there is the genius of this thread. Know what the options are and what the trade-offs are. Then make an informed decision and try it out. Then decide. Then decide again cause things change and trying things out is cool.
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  83. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post

    Clutch derailleurs - Designed to reduce chainslap, they worked like magic with Narrow/wide rings
    They still do!

  84. #184
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    You guys are funny whats next Droppers with ESP --Yeah the hot ticket is manually changing our chain on the front sprocket--what could possibly go wrong doing that at 30MPH

  85. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Front shifting has been inferior for many reasons but things are improving:

    1) The 14 tooth jump that you state, 22/36 is stupid. It is a huge jump for cadence and it was terrible for shifting performance up or down. The new systems have a much better 10-tooth jumps now. This is made possible by wider range cassettes

    2) Chainrings have been the playground of many bling, aftermarket or big brand chainring vendors. Unfortunately, they had little understanding of the chainring hardness and shift ramps required to perform good shifts under power. This is a much better arena now with forged chainring manufacturers.

    3) Front derailleurs have been plagued by lack of stiffness. The derailleurs and mounts have been flexy. This is improved now with direct mount and newer side swing front derailleurs. These improve cable leverage and improve tire clearance as well.


    And with Di2, that consistent shifting force is always as needed. But even without electronic, front shifting is better now than before.
    So, it is a better day for front derailleurs.

    Right on with #1. Shimano's 2x10 with a 24/38 did not work at all for me. I find a 10 to 12 tooth jump in the front rings nice when pedaling. The 38t was too tall anyway, at least for East cost riding.

    The tighter spacing of the new 11speed Shimano rings has me looking at a real 2x10 again. I'm running a 1x10 with a manual shift to the granny.

  86. #186
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    I had a 22/36 on my 2x10 and getting to the 36 was challenging. Sometimes it would work sometimes it would just irritate me.
    </robert> ::: B1KER.com - Be One

  87. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trackho View Post
    You guys are funny whats next Droppers with ESP --Yeah the hot ticket is manually changing our chain on the front sprocket--what could possibly go wrong doing that at 30MPH
    If you think that manually swapping chain between granny and mid ring at 30MPH is what been touted there, then you probably was riding through too fast. May I suggest to session that obstacle couple more times.
    I used to run tubes like you are, but then I got thorn in my wheel.

  88. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stalk View Post
    If you think that manually swapping chain between granny and mid ring at 30MPH is what been touted there, then you probably was riding through too fast. May I suggest to session that obstacle couple more times.
    Thanks for the clarification--so whats the difference between hitting my dropper switch with my left thumb and shifting to the big ring up front or heaven forbid---both --good thing my brakes are moto style--now there's as discussion worth having

  89. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trackho View Post
    Thanks for the clarification--so whats the difference between hitting my dropper switch with my left thumb and shifting to the big ring up front or heaven forbid---both --good thing my brakes are moto style--now there's as discussion worth having
    On a 1x11 or no left shifter set-up (like Di2) your right thumb only does one thing, shift. Your left thumb does only one task too, dropper post. The brain likes this and it's cool not to muck it up in all situations.

    fc
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  90. #190
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    I went from 2x10 (26/38 front) to 1x10 30x42 with no regrets. I feel like it's made me much faster on rolling terrain, because I have no hesitation about constantly shifting to maintain the same rate of pedaling, without fear of getting caught in too high of a gear for a sudden climb just around a corner. My low gear ratio is actually a tiny bit better than before (0.71 instead of 0.72), and the only times I run out of gears on the high end are on asphalt. Granted I'm just an intermediate-to-advanced rider, but the whole concept just resonates with me. I'll admit I do occasionally punch the shifter to go one lower when climbing, but when nothing happens, I just remind myself to HTFU. If I notice that I really want a bit higher gearing, I'll put on an oval 32T up front.

    As FC has said, N/W chain rings + clutch derailleurs are fantastic. I've never dropped a chain, without using a chain guide.

    I'm sure Di2 is nicer, but for the price it's just ludicrous for me.

  91. #191
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    The future has 2x11. Looks like I get to compare Shimano XT and Sram GX.

    Shimano XT is 26/36 front. Rear is 11-42.
    Sea Otter: Shimano Deore XT M8000 11-Speed - Mtbr.com

    Sram GX is 24/36 front and 10-42 rear.
    First Look: SRAM GX Drivetrain - Mtbr.com | Page 2


    Front shifting is soo much better now with closer spaced front rings and stiffer front derailleurs. And really, one hangs around the big ring most of the time anyway with that 42t. And it's like having a bailout gear without having to hand-shift.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1x11...I'm over it for hills-shimano-deore-xt-m8000-sea-otter-12-1024x678.jpg  

    1x11...I'm over it for hills-sram-gx-2x11.jpg  

    Last edited by fc; 07-14-2015 at 09:32 PM.
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  92. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trackho View Post
    Thanks for the clarification--so whats the difference between hitting my dropper switch with my left thumb and shifting to the big ring up front or heaven forbid---both --good thing my brakes are moto style--now there's as discussion worth having
    For me it have nothing to do with dropper post. I use lever under the saddle versions on both of my bikes.
    it's just 1x system fits all my needs today. For the cases when I'll get challenged with steeper terrain, instead of adding 40 or 42t on the back, thread suggested simpler and free solution.

    Discussion on who like what is bit pointless. Discussion that makes better what I do like is quite useful. Hence my praise for mentioned solution.
    I used to run tubes like you are, but then I got thorn in my wheel.

  93. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo View Post
    What was it like a year ago or more that 1x11 sort of took over? I sure was sold. Less bar/bike clutter, lighter, quieter...all good. Now that I have some miles under my belt with this trend, I gotta say, I miss my 2x10.

    Maybe I am getting older or what not but seems like I am always looking for that one more gear that is never there with a 1x11 (I'm running a 30 up front). On the uphill, my thumb constantly pushes a lever that has hit a wall as my legs scream for just a little mercy. On the downhill, I am always looking for that little extra torque that is all but gone past 25mph. The only solution I see is to sacrifice an uphill gear for a more DH speed or visa versa.

    Anyone else out there feel the same? That Di2 is looking like a sweet solution.
    I'll do you a solid and take that 1x11 off your hands. PM with mailing address on the way!

  94. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    If they go wireless it will go on the road bikes first.

    I'm using the wired system and it's really seamless so there's no need for wireless. It's all internally cabled. I think it's harder for install but that's a mechanic's job anyway. After it's installed perfectly, one will hardly notice the tiny, weatherproof, detachable wires at the ends.
    SRAM may get the wireless jump first. They have prototypes on their pro road teams right now. They got to be working on one for mountain bikes too.

    You're just looking at a shifter and rear derailleur for XX1.

    They've been testing them for some time now.

    Spotted: SRAM wireless drivetrain on AG2R La Mondiale bikes - VeloNews.com

  95. #195
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    Lever under the saddle. Death switch...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stalk View Post
    For me it have nothing to do with dropper post. I use lever under the saddle versions on both of my bikes.
    it's just 1x system fits all my needs today. For the cases when I'll get challenged with steeper terrain, instead of adding 40 or 42t on the back, thread suggested simpler and free solution.

    Discussion on who like what is bit pointless. Discussion that makes better what I do like is quite useful. Hence my praise for mentioned solution.

  96. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronski View Post
    Lever under the saddle. Death switch...
    I use it with Thomson. Still alive. Obviously, does not work nearly as well as a remote, but easy to swap with a regular post. Compromise.

  97. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    On a 1x11 or no left shifter set-up (like Di2) your right thumb only does one thing, shift. Your left thumb does only one task too, dropper post. The brain likes this and it's cool not to muck it up in all situations.

    fc

    Well... for newer riders you are probably right.

    But, every time I'm shooting out of down into a climb my left thumb instinctively, blindly, pokes for my front shifter to dump gears. I've got the SRAM mod for the Specialized Blacklite on the left to drop the post and it has replaced the FD. So, instead of dropping gears for a steep climb my darn thumb has me dropping my post!

    Unfortunately, even after a year I'm not use to it.

    This is a great thread, as I don't think the 1x is the end all be all - just another option the discenring rider has at there disposal to dial their ride.

    Shimano has seemed to do it best. You get the option of how you'd like to build your transmission - 1x or 2x, etc. The one big mistake they made is not having their XTR cassestte available in a 42t.

    SRAM really ticked people off with forcing them to mess with their hubs. I've got 4 King rear hubs that are really old but going super strong and changing over to an XD driver would be a costly hassle. Was there any legit reason why SRAM could not offer one high end 11 speed cassette that did away with the 10t and fit a standard spline? If SRAM did that they could still get some of the market back from Shimano.

    IMO the future is electronic shifting with a single right hand shifter, and a 2x, with auto FD shift. I think in about 3 years we'll see this on a lot more bikes.

    I think I got off track.

  98. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    The future has 2x11. Looks like I get to compare Shimano XT and Sram GX.

    Shimano XT is 26/36 front. Rear is 11-42.
    Sea Otter: Shimano Deore XT M8000 11-Speed - Mtbr.com

    Sram GX is 24/36 front and 10-42 rear.
    First Look: SRAM GX Drivetrain - Mtbr.com | Page 2


    Front shifting is soo much better now with closer spaced front rings and stiffer front derailleurs. And really, one hangs around the big ring most of the time anyway with that 42t. And it's like having a bailout gear without having to hand-shift.
    Hey fc does that GX drivetrain have grip shifts for the front mech?...if so that would make dropper lever cleaner.

  99. #199
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    Dumb question alert...is a 30x42 1x gearing easier on a 29er vs 26er? b/c gear inches, science and stuff

  100. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssalinas View Post
    Hey fc does that GX drivetrain have grip shifts for the front mech?...if so that would make dropper lever cleaner.
    Damn brotherman, good call. Yes, they have gripshift for sure. And I heard the new stuff is a whole lot better. How a bout trigger on the right and grip left? Yeah.

    Or how about trigger, trigger shifters then gripshift to actuate the dropper. Boom shaka lak.
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