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  1. #1
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    What hydraulic caliper has the most spoke clearance?

    I've done some searching, and identified a few brakes that seem to have very large inboard side on their caliper (Juicys come to mind) but what brake has the slimmest caliper profile on the wheel side?

    I would like to get a little more room than I can manage with my Hayes mags, so any help would be appreciated. Photos would be fantastic- thanks.


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  2. #2
    I-S
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    Doesn't this also depend on the hub as to how far inboard of the caliper the flange is?

    Anyway, here's Magura Louise (02-06) on a hope XC rear hub:


  3. #3
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    Yes, ultimately clearance does have to do with the hub, but the answer to the question I asked doesn't- whatever caliper it is that has the best clearance will have the best clearance regardless of hub or spoke issues, right? The caliper isn't going to change because of the hub.


    Anyhow, thanks for the pic. It actually made think of a measurable quantity- how far inboard from the inside surface of the disc does the back face of the caliper protrude? I'll take some pictures and measurements and post them here.


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  4. #4
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    Shimano XT M765.
    From the inside edge of rotor to edge of caliper housing measures 15mm.
    I think it said in the installation manual that they weren't compatible with certain spoke patterns.

    Sorry for the bad pics...


    energetix



  5. #5
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    Oh, no- those pictures are excellent, and that is eactly the kind of info I am looking for.

    Thanks a lot!


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  6. #6
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    I thought they would turn out worse, as you can see I couldn't get all the detail in one pic due to the location of the flash on the camera.

    I'm interested in the different measurements as well, how do the XT's compare to your Mags? I almost purchased the Juicy 5's or Magura Louise, chose XT's in the end but never really gave the caliper size a thought. I guess like most people didn't really give it a thought as there were no probs.
    I had hayes soles IS mount until recently, never really noticed clearance issues back then either.
    energetix



  7. #7
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    Juicy clearance



    No clearance problems there.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by energetix
    I'm interested in the different measurements as well, how do the XT's compare to your Mags?

    Well, as closely as I can measure it, the mags come in at 16-17mm. Slightly more than your XTs, I guess.


    MajorKhaos, can you measure the depth of the back of that caliper for me? The way I'd like you to do it is from the surface of the disc to the farthest surface of the back of the caliper, like this:
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  9. #9
    I-S
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles
    Well, as closely as I can measure it, the mags come in at 16-17mm. Slightly more than your XTs, I guess.
    I get 17-18mm for the Louise. Perhaps put together a table of this information?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles
    Well, as closely as I can measure it, the mags come in at 16-17mm. Slightly more than your XTs, I guess.


    MajorKhaos, can you measure the depth of the back of that caliper for me? The way I'd like you to do it is from the surface of the disc to the farthest surface of the back of the caliper, like this:
    17-18mm for my Juicy Carbons / Hope 203mm Saw Rotor.

    Based on our three different calliper / rotor combo's they might look worlds apart , but they're very similar.

  11. #11
    Meh.
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    Rotor shims'll take care of the problem.

  12. #12
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    So far we have:
    Shimano XT 15mm
    Hayes Mag 16-17mm
    Juicy 17-18mm
    Louise 17-18mm

    An excellent start. Let's keep the info coming.


    miles
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by XSL_WiLL
    Rotor shims'll take care of the problem.

    Been there, done that (or should I say "am there, doing that"?). I'd rather not do so, if I can figure out a better way.


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  14. #14
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    Second and maybe even third measurements from someone else would be good to confirm the accuracy of primary posters for each brake type.

    There must be a manufacture guideline and margin for the maximum width they design them to. Obviously each probably tries to make it asthetically pleasing and compact whilst keeping it functional.

    Just by looking at the photos spoke clearance looked the same.


    I know we're measuring width here, but if you're considering spoke clearance you would also have to take into account the rotor size. Obviously the bigger the rotor the higher the caliper would sit and thus further from the spokes.
    energetix



  15. #15
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    So, to explain my interest in this issue, here goes. I just had a set of 29er wheels built up. Now, obviously the longer spokes take more distance to get to the rim, so they sit closer to the caliper than 26er spokes as a matter of course. Second, though, I'm using Hope Pro II hubs, which seem to be wider flange to flange than a lot of hubs, adding a little bit to my problem. Worst of all, though, is that I specified crow's foot lacing, so three spokes cross each other at the same spot fairly close to the hub.
    In the back, I used some 1mm washers to give me enough space, and it puts the caliper at the limit of adjustability. I'd rather not have to do this.
    In the front, the problem is a lot worse because the narrower front hub means that the spoke angle is that much shallower. To get around that, I swiped the 8" rotor off my AM bike. I'm more OK with that than I am with the spacers in back, but 1 spoke hits the back of the caliper, no matter how much adjusting I do.
    I can have the wheels relaced into a standard 2=cross, but I really like the crow's foot pattern and I'd hate to give it up if there is another solution.

    And yes, I agree that multiple user measurements would be best- if others can chime in with their numbers I will happily continue to update the list.

    Clearly the designers know that there is a maximum width that they can expect to get away with, and that works for most wheels. I suspect that with the increase in popularity of 29ers that we may see more conflicts in the future- but then again, disk brake components are miniaturizing at a pretty good rate these days, so maybe the next generation of calipers will all be svelte enough to avoid any issues.
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  16. #16
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    Here are the photos. The first shows a Hayes Mag caliper, and its measurement.
    The second show the Hybrid Crow's Foot lacing.
    The third shows the spacers that did the trick in back.
    The fourth shows the front caliper and the paint rub from the one spoke. Not the silver corner, but the kinda raw-looking stripe along the angle about 3/4 of the way over on the right side of the surface.
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  17. #17
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    Just use the rotor shims then. There is nothing wrong with them.

  18. #18
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    Maybe you missed the part of being at the very limit of caliper adjustment with the washers. The rotor ever so barely misses dragging along the side of the IS adapter by the width of an eyelash. It just isn't right that way.


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  19. #19
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    Maybe I am missing something, but if you are at the limit of the adjustment you can gain a little more by using a disc tab facing tool to shift the IS adapter outboard.

  20. #20
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    Sure, I could do that. I could grind, sand, file etc until I had more room to play with- but I would really rather not if there is another solution that doesn't involve damaging parts.



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  21. #21
    I-S
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    Why not use a normal lacing pattern that doesn't cause the problem?

  22. #22
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    That may ultimately be the answer, as much as I hate to say it.
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  23. #23
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    With the XT the installation guide basically says that a radial spoke assembly cannot be used. I'm not familiar with different spoke patterns so don't know what a radial one looks like.

    If you're keen on getting a new brake system rather than relacing, then from looking at your pictors perhaps you should consider the caliper height. If you had a caliper on there that wasn't as high as the mag, but was a similar width o rnarrower would it potentially solve the problem? That's providing I have read your post correctly - the rub being that silver stripe near the top of the caliper.

    Both the XT's and Juicy 5's seem lower as they have the line goinng out from the other side. The Louise looks a similar design to yours.
    energetix



  24. #24
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    Hayes are fairly thick at the lower edge of the piston housing. Just take a file to it and remove 1-2mm of metal in a parallel plane to your spokes. I have done this on both the original hayes as well as the g2 calipers. So long as the caliper doesn't actually ping on the spokes you are good to go.
    Quote Originally Posted by saturnine
    that's the stupidest idea this side of pinkbike.

  25. #25
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    Why grind down the caliper? All he would need to do is take down the adapter a little bit, or face the disc tabs.

    But that would be "damaging" parts.

    BTW, there are specific one-piece rotor shims.

  26. #26
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    Yes, there are one-piece rotor shims, but there weren't any lying around on my workbench when I built it up. The washers that you see are specifically spacers, so they are consistent thickness, and do the job.

    The shiny silver spot on the caliper is just some random paint scratch- the rub is in the area I circled in the attached photo.

    Yes, it is radial lacing that is getting me into trouble. Again, I think it would be no big issue on a narrower hub and on a 26er wheel. What happened is a confluence of elements that together add up to trouble.

    As far facing the disc tabs, I would rather not expose raw steel to the elements if I don't have to. I'm a lot more likely to grind on the adapter, that's for sure.


    miles

    Edited to add the photo I forgot earlier.
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    Last edited by miles; 03-06-2007 at 08:55 PM.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furrner
    Maybe I am missing something, but if you are at the limit of the adjustment you can gain a little more by using a disc tab facing tool to shift the IS adapter outboard.
    But the caliper still needs to be centered over the rotor.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles
    That may ultimately be the answer, as much as I hate to say it.
    or just make a slight change:
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  29. #29
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    That's what the wheelbuilder and I have been talking about- moving the center radial of the crow's foot inboard. As I see it, that loses some of the strength advantage of the whole crow's foot concept (because you lose the third cross), and in effect makes it a hybrid 2-cross/radial wheel. It still does look cool, though, and I guess that's what counts, right? Everything I've read says to run the heads inboard on all of the spokes, but I guess the rules need to be rewritten for disc brake wheels.

    Honestly, the last time I'd seen crow's foot wheel somebody like Eric Dungy (sp?) was sporting them a hundred years ago, and for some reason the thought of doing that with these wheels crossed my mind. Life would have been far easier if I'd just stuck with a tried-and-true 2-cross, but even then I might have had issues with the front wheel. The Hope Pro II hubs, disc brakes, and big rims just seem to be a problematic convergence.


    Thanks for the photo, Shiggy. I'll email that to my builder.


    miles
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    But the caliper still needs to be centered over the rotor.

    That is what rotor shims are for.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles
    As far facing the disc tabs, I would rather not expose raw steel to the elements if I don't have to. I'm a lot more likely to grind on the adapter, that's for sure.
    Don't worry about facing steel, there are much worse things going on inside the dropout where the axle is digging into the material. Unless you milled the adapter dead square you'd be giving yourself a new set of headaches.

  32. #32
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    I am bringing this thread back from the dead to see if there are any new options for slim callipers out there.

    I have a sort of unique situation where I really can't do much with spacers, I just need a skinnier calliper.

    Right now I am using a Hayes Stroker Ryde. Is there much out there that will give me much more room to work with? I need something about 2mm skinnier on the spoke side if anyone has suggestions.

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