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  1. #1
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    Wink v-brakes are fine.

    Notice how the majority of posts here are for riders having problems with their hydraulic disc brakes? Only two applications where disc brakes make ANY sense are on downhill rigs and wet weather condtions. If you ride XC and majority of your riding is done in dry weather stick with the V's.... hydraulics are nothing but a pain in arss. If you like to dump more money, ad weight, and spend more time wrenching on your bike....then disc brakes are perfect for ya....have fun!

  2. #2
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    Flamebait?

    Quote Originally Posted by mtcali
    Notice how the majority of posts here are for riders having problems with their hydraulic disc brakes? Only two applications where disc brakes make ANY sense are on downhill rigs and wet weather condtions. If you ride XC and majority of your riding is done in dry weather stick with the V's.... hydraulics are nothing but a pain in arss. If you like to dump more money, ad weight, and spend more time wrenching on your bike....then disc brakes are perfect for ya....have fun!
    Is not this a flamebait?

    BTW - the other good thing with a disk is less wear and tear on the rim, and, in general, stronger rims.

  3. #3
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    still use 'em

    Still cant beat the v-brakes majority of the time.

  4. #4
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    New question here. Hmmm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    Is not this a flamebait?

    BTW - the other good thing with a disk is less wear and tear on the rim, and, in general, stronger rims.
    Wear and tear on the rim?? I have about 2 years - 3000+ miles on a set of Rolf Propels and Avids.......the rims are perfect true (with regular racing and XC single track) Have you experienced wear and tear with other rims/brakes?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtcali
    Have you experienced wear and tear with other rims/brakes?
    I wore out two sets of rims on the training bike that I use for quite some muddy riding. Yes, this is part of the "not good in wet weather". Just a little different prospective.

    Many folks around here mentioned that 517 rims (non ceramic) were wearing out and bursting.

    Do you frequently brake on a downhill?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtcali
    Wear and tear on the rim?? I have about 2 years - 3000+ miles on a set of Rolf Propels and Avids.......the rims are perfect true (with regular racing and XC single track) Have you experienced wear and tear with other rims/brakes?
    heh funny thing is ... So are mine. But i guess we're different since we have ceramic rims supposedly... no chips either on my wheelset from 2000...

  7. #7
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    Yup. V-brakes are fine

    Quote Originally Posted by mtcali
    Notice how the majority of posts here are for riders having problems with their hydraulic disc brakes? Only two applications where disc brakes make ANY sense are on downhill rigs and wet weather condtions. If you ride XC and majority of your riding is done in dry weather stick with the V's.... hydraulics are nothing but a pain in arss. If you like to dump more money, ad weight, and spend more time wrenching on your bike....then disc brakes are perfect for ya....have fun!
    You forgot to slam us mech disc users. Oh, and you also forgot to mention that rim brakes are mech disc brakes.

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  8. #8
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    Idea!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus
    You forgot to slam us mech disc users. Oh, and you also forgot to mention that rim brakes are mech disc brakes.

    --Sparty
    No Sparty...... I was not refering to mechanical disc brakes, that is why I specified "HYDRAULIC" disc brakes. I was refering to the number of posts by riders having problems with HYDRAULIC dics brakes and to inform them that the old fashioned, retro rim brakes are equal if not BETTER for certain applications. And, not sure how "rim brakes are mech disc brakes" ?? I dont have a stainless steel disc mounted to my rim?? Interesting.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtcali
    Notice how the majority of posts here are for riders having problems with their hydraulic disc brakes? Only two applications where disc brakes make ANY sense are on downhill rigs and wet weather condtions. If you ride XC and majority of your riding is done in dry weather stick with the V's.... hydraulics are nothing but a pain in arss. If you like to dump more money, ad weight, and spend more time wrenching on your bike....then disc brakes are perfect for ya....have fun!
    I'd have to say that statement is your personal opinion. Curious if you have ever spent any extended time using disc brakes? Well I plenty of time succesfully running V brakes. I tortured myself trying to decide if I wanted to switch to disc brakes - I finally made the switch to Avid mechanical's and will probably never look back. I ride w/ plenty of hydro users that have little if any problems .Reason being there are posted hydro problems is this is a help board w/ many users... set-up is key to any brakes performance.

  10. #10
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    Super secret tip

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    I wore out two sets of rims on the training bike that I use for quite some muddy riding. Yes, this is part of the "not good in wet weather". Just a little different prospective.

    Many folks around here mentioned that 517 rims (non ceramic) were wearing out and bursting.

    Do you frequently brake on a downhill?
    For longer rim life, try to brake on inclines only.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoiler
    For longer rim life, try to brake on inclines only.
    What does that supposed to mean? Yes, I do break on incline and coming into a corner.

    Do you ride so slowly that you do not have to brake before turning?

  12. #12
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    V's are fine for who?

    Personally, I am a clydesdale who has worn through three rear rims with canti's/ v's. That was before going with Hayes Mag's. That was 4 years ago now, and I have only had to replace pads. I will never go back.
    gfy

  13. #13
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    ... and if we just ...

    Quote Originally Posted by keen
    I'd have to say that statement is your personal opinion. Curious if you have ever spent any extended time using disc brakes? Well I plenty of time succesfully running V brakes. I tortured myself trying to decide if I wanted to switch to disc brakes - I finally made the switch to Avid mechanical's and will probably never look back. I ride w/ plenty of hydro users that have little if any problems .Reason being there are posted hydro problems is this is a help board w/ many users... set-up is key to any brakes performance.
    Hey Keen,

    Yes, had some time on disc brakes, Magura Martras, Louises and most recently Formula B4's. Still prefer my old Avid Mags....actually just bought set of Ultimates they are doing great! No bleeding, no rubbing, no extra weight, money, hassle etc, etc, etc......

  14. #14
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    wow. what great bait. in fact you're the master baiter. (yeah, that was lame, and old. so sue me.)

    whatever. three bikes with avid mech (yeah, not hydro) discs front and rear. i spend way less time taking care of said discs than i ever did messing around with my v and canti brakes. and i don't go through any more pads (based on $$$ spent) than i didi before. and i don't worry about making sure my rims are absolutely true, or blowing a rim sidewall eventually. and i can stop as well in the wet as a can in the dry, without needing special pads, or ceramic rims. and i stop way faster than i ever did with v and canti brakes, and like the lever feel and modulation waaaaay better.

    that enough for ya? it's personal preferance, flamer. you ride what you like, i'll ride what i like, and everyone else can ride what they like. sound like a good deal? i have way more fun riding with people no matter what brakes they have, rather than riding with them and worrying over what brakes they have, or dissing on them for whatever those brakes may be.
    Florence Nightingale's Stormtrooper

  15. #15
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    It was a joke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    What does that supposed to mean? Yes, I do break on incline and coming into a corner.

    Do you ride so slowly that you do not have to brake before turning?
    Actually, I'm working on my bike handling skills so I don't have to brake quite so often or early. I'm coming from a road biking background, where you have a consistent surface, It's tough to learn to judge how well your tires will grip the corners on fatter tires and loose surfaces. On 23mm road tires, once you slid a rear wheel, it's tough to save it. Once you slide a front tire, it's near impossible.

  16. #16
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    Im about to get an XTR V set instead of discs

    (Dual control included), I know I can get decent discs for a similar price (including hubs) but I still love the simplicity of Vs. Perfect for agressive XC stuff and lots of power.
    Is fun to hear how everybody seems to be happy to be able to ride with waving rims and in wet conditions, precisely a couple of things I try to avoid !
    Im not a pro, so I dont have to ride when its raining or in nasty terrain conditions if I dont want to.Conditions,BTW , that Im sure a good pair of Vs could handle well enough anyway.

  17. #17
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    Notice how the majority of posts here are for riders having problems with their hydraulic disc brakes?

    Because a rider is new to setting up discs does not mean it is a problem, it is just something new.

    Only two applications where disc brakes make ANY sense are on downhill rigs and wet weather condtions.

    Completely false and just your opinion... disc brakes make sense in any condition.

    If you ride XC and majority of your riding is done in dry weather stick with the V's.... hydraulics are nothing but a pain in arss.

    False again.... I have not had any problems with any disc brake I have owned

    If you like to dump more money, ad weight, and spend more time wrenching on your bike....then disc brakes are perfect for ya....have fun!

    Where do you come up with this stuff? More money? How so? If you add up pad replacement versus rim and pad replacement on V brakes you'd be on the losing end. Add weight? No not true, ask Mike T about weights.... More time wrenching? For what? Pad replacement? Takes me all of 1 minute on my Gustav's. Have fun? I do....

    I realize everyone has an opinion, but yours seems quite biased. Personally I do not see anything wrong with V brakes, prefer Magura rim brakes but to each his own. But you posted an opinion not facts, time to go back to school now.
    Pat T.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat T.
    Notice how the majority of posts here are for riders having problems with their hydraulic disc brakes?

    Because a rider is new to setting up discs does not mean it is a problem, it is just something new.
    I don't think discs are that much harder to setup proplery than v-brakes, however its apparent that people do not know how to wrench on their disc brakes. This leads me to think that a good amount of people can't set up v-brakes either but aren't asking questions how to set them up properly because if a v-brake is working "ok" they are less likely to mess with it and make it right. Whereas if a disc brake isn't working right, its horrible. I have both disc's and v-brakes on an assortment of bikes and have tried out numerous brakesets.

    Also those gustav's are well over 1000g,. Theres only a few disc brakes that rival v-brakes in weight, B4sl, and marta sl's to name two. A set of price compared v-brakes are signifigantly lighter (440g-500g) for a complete front and rear set with levers. Thats a over a pound saved over your gustav's... not to mention wheel weights..

    Make up your mind about discs brakes as you will as they definitly have their applicaitons but i don't think they're as superior as some are leading you to believe.

  19. #19
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    I have been using disc brakes for 2 years now, both avid mechs and hayes hydros. Disc brakes in general are the best thing to come to mountain biking in quite some time. The power and modulation with disc brakes is far superior to any rim brake on the market. As for weight, do you really think that one pound more on your bike is really going to make or break you? I have not had one ounce of trouble with either the avid mechs, or those dastardly, trouble making hydros. You ride what you like, and I;ll ride what I like. just my 2 cents.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bander119
    I have been using disc brakes for 2 years now, both avid mechs and hayes hydros. Disc brakes in general are the best thing to come to mountain biking in quite some time. The power and modulation with disc brakes is far superior to any rim brake on the market. As for weight, do you really think that one pound more on your bike is really going to make or break you? I have not had one ounce of trouble with either the avid mechs, or those dastardly, trouble making hydros. You ride what you like, and I;ll ride what I like. just my 2 cents.
    wasn't it you that was asking about a cracked hayes line a few weeks ago? I thought it was you but anyway , a pound on a bike is noticable. Thinking like that can make your bike one heavy lug..

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtcali
    Notice how the majority of posts here are for riders having problems with their hydraulic disc brakes? Only two applications where disc brakes make ANY sense are on downhill rigs and wet weather condtions. If you ride XC and majority of your riding is done in dry weather stick with the V's.... hydraulics are nothing but a pain in arss. If you like to dump more money, ad weight, and spend more time wrenching on your bike....then disc brakes are perfect for ya....have fun!
    Retro grouch, get w/ the times. I've been running discs for 4 years and ran V brakes for years before that and old style cantis before that. Discs are superior-period. The only time V brakes approach the power and modulation of discs is when the cables and pads are new. When they break in, you lose a lot of modulation and all you can do is either lightly brake or lock up the wheels-there's no in between. Once you learn how to ride discs, you will realize that there is a lot of "in between" your missing out on. I rode/raced an old Yeti hardtail last summer w/ XTR V's because my FS w/ discs was down. Guess what the most noticable diff. was, not the lack of suspension, but the lack of brakes. When I would grab the levers hard on fast descents into tight turns, I would over-shot the turns because I was used to braking later. Grabbing the lever lightly or a bit harder made no diff. in braking power-NO MODULATION. Don't tell me they are just as good, and get over the whole lighter thing-unless your racing the World Cup or something.

  22. #22
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    but disc brakes are gggrreeeaattttttt!

    Not going to waste my time typing a discussion on this beat to death topic.
    You keep you V's and I'll definately keem my disc.

    KMan
    (a happy hydrolic disc user)

    Quote Originally Posted by mtcali
    Notice how the majority of posts here are for riders having problems with their hydraulic disc brakes? Only two applications where disc brakes make ANY sense are on downhill rigs and wet weather condtions. If you ride XC and majority of your riding is done in dry weather stick with the V's.... hydraulics are nothing but a pain in arss. If you like to dump more money, ad weight, and spend more time wrenching on your bike....then disc brakes are perfect for ya....have fun!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtb_biker
    I don't think discs are that much harder to setup proplery than v-brakes, however its apparent that people do not know how to wrench on their disc brakes. This leads me to think that a good amount of people can't set up v-brakes either but aren't asking questions how to set them up properly because if a v-brake is working "ok" they are less likely to mess with it and make it right. Whereas if a disc brake isn't working right, its horrible. I have both disc's and v-brakes on an assortment of bikes and have tried out numerous brakesets.

    Also those gustav's are well over 1000g,. Theres only a few disc brakes that rival v-brakes in weight, B4sl, and marta sl's to name two. A set of price compared v-brakes are signifigantly lighter (440g-500g) for a complete front and rear set with levers. Thats a over a pound saved over your gustav's... not to mention wheel weights..

    Make up your mind about discs brakes as you will as they definitly have their applicaitons but i don't think they're as superior as some are leading you to believe.
    Uhm.... ok? I guess there is a reason I helped with the FAQ at the top of the page, did you even read my post before you started typing? I never once compared my Gustav's to V brakes... that would be stupid. I did however compare V brakes to the Marta's and B4's... which you repeated for me. I have made up my mind about disc brakes and the pluses far outweigh the minus's.... especially if you get over 200lbs such as myself.
    Pat T.

  24. #24
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    [mildely off topic]
    i've just changed back to cantilevers on the front for my road bike in the last few days, after i sore a 1993 Kona LavaDome it was in for a service and the Deore canti's worked sooooo well i thought, "what the hell"

    i use V's by the way have done for years, mainly because i ride for pleasure, and that for me means not in the rain/wet. its horses for courses realy

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtcali
    And, not sure how "rim brakes are mech disc brakes" ?? I dont have a stainless steel disc mounted to my rim?? Interesting.

    Wow...

    What is a disc brake? A set of calipers mounted to the fork or rear stays that clamps on the rotor to provide braking.

    rim brakes... A set of calipers (v or canti) mounted to the fork or rear stays that clamps on the rotor (rim braking surface) to provide braking.

    Believe it or not, all a rim brake is is a disc brake with a very large rotor.
    ...he said "young man pay heed, you listen well to what i say, now there comes a time for a man to walk away"

  26. #26
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    My personal favorite brakes are the magura hydraulic rim brakes. Why? because after 5000+ miles over 4 years on one bike I've bled them once and replaced the pads twice. Never have they needed an adjustment, even pad replacement doesn't require an adjustment. I've never felt that they didn't have enough power or modulation for my riding.

    V brakes are okay, they do suffer from brake fade, and they are somewhat picky about setup. However, the guys I know that ride discs are always messing with them too, either they squeel or they rub, or the rotor isn't true. Now setup can be part of that, just as it is with any brake. I think mtb_biker hit it on the head. With rim brakes your brakes can bet set up pretty bad and still "work" with disc brakes they seem to be either working perfect or horrible, there's no in between ground. Modulation with ANY brake it based on setup and the system, you can get great modulation out of V brakes or discs, and you get get great power out of both. In bad conditions or for super long DH runs discs certainly have advantages.

    However we mise well get used to liking discs, because try to find a frame or fork new on the market with canti bosses. Unless it's a hardtail or a low travel XC racing FS frame forget it. The new ventana I'm building is going to be my first bike with discs though I've rode a lot of them, we shall see how they do.

    Frankly, I think 90% of riders are pretty crazy about discs......if someone made a dual front rotor setup for a mountain bikes guys would buy it. 250cc 250lb motorcross bikes doing 80mph and 100' jumps don't need that much braking, but you make it for a mountain bike guys will buy and it sing it's praises on how much better the braking is on their 40lb bike doing 40mph.

  27. #27
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    If you ride XC and majority of your riding is done in dry weather stick with the V's.... hydraulics are nothing but a pain in arss.

    False again.... I have not had any problems with any disc brake I have owned


    Heheheh Pat, I've been on disc brakes as long as almost anyone around here, and quite a few models too, and have YET to think that any of them have been a "pain in arss". Just the oposite! All my disc brakes have been ZERO maintenance. Maybe it's got a lot to do with getting brakes from good makers and installing them correctly eh?
    Conversly, the rim brakes I owned (canti and V) all needed fiddling constantly - toeing in, re-adjusting after pad changes, re-adjusting to clear tire sidewalls, lubing cables, cleaning rims, trueing wheels. I must say that Magura rim brakes were 90% less work than my other rim brakes.

    The set of (hydraulic) disc brakes I have on my bike now have been there since A YEAR last September. They have required a grand total of ZEEEEERO maintenance, adjustment, bleeding, fiddling or anything. Try THAT with any rim brake.


    If you like to dump more money, ad weight, and spend more time wrenching on your bike....then disc brakes are perfect for ya....have fun!

    Where do you come up with this stuff? More money? How so? If you add up pad replacement versus rim and pad replacement on V brakes you'd be on the losing end. Add weight? No not true, ask Mike T about weights.... More time wrenching? For what? Pad replacement? Takes me all of 1 minute on my Gustav's. Have fun? I do....

    Ya can't argue with the mis-informed and win Pat. Don't waste yer breath.

    Mike T. (mcm # 717, FOG)
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilders with information and motivation.

  28. #28
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    v-brakes are fine

    Another thing to ponder........next time your at the races see what the XC exp/pros are running. These are guys/gals who choose equipment stricly based on performance. Maintenance, money, weight, looks........all take a back seat to what works best, funny a lot of them are riding v's still?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtcali
    Another thing to ponder........next time your at the races see what the XC exp/pros are running. These are guys/gals who choose equipment stricly based on performance. Maintenance, money, weight, looks........all take a back seat to what works best, funny a lot of them are riding v's still?
    Wrong, the pros run them because thats what their sponsors or shop are giving them, plus they are hyper anal about weight even though its only 1/2 pound extra. The experts run the V's because they are cheaper, or thats what their sponsor is giving them, and those guys/gals are broke because they spend all their time training and spend a ton of $ on their racing. For them, V's are cheaper and lighter plus they work good enough on most courses so thats all they care about. So do you think a hardtail is superior because they are riding those also?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    Wrong, the pros run them because thats what their sponsors or shop are giving them, plus they are hyper anal about weight even though its only 1/2 pound extra. The experts run the V's because they are cheaper, or thats what their sponsor is giving them, and those guys/gals are broke because they spend all their time training and spend a ton of $ on their racing. For them, V's are cheaper and lighter plus they work good enough on most courses so thats all they care about. So do you think a hardtail is superior because they are riding those also?
    Like I said......pro riders main concerns is the performance of their equipment. Sponsor would give em a set of discs if thats what they wanted. And as for the "1/2 lb extra" it is much more that that. My whole set up (levers and cables included) is about 500 gms.

    And no I dont think hardtail is superior, as with v-brakes they definetely have their place in mt. riding. And again, for XC racing they make the most sense. Again, next time your at the races see what the majority of pro/exp class riders are running........ hartails and v's.....what a bunch of retro-grouchs huh ?? But what do they know..

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddM
    Frankly, I think 90% of riders are pretty crazy about discs......if someone made a dual front rotor setup for a mountain bikes guys would buy it. 250cc 250lb motorcross bikes doing 80mph and 100' jumps don't need that much braking, but you make it for a mountain bike guys will buy and it sing it's praises on how much better the braking is on their 40lb bike doing 40mph.
    LOL... that is so true, in fact there was a discussion about that on the freeride board some time ago. How about carbon fibre calipers mounted to a rigid fork with twin 80mm-100mm stainless rotors for a road bike.... that would be sweet.
    Pat T.

  32. #32
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    Man that is too funny....you actually believe that?

    Pros ride what they are told to ride, anything different and they have to "hide" the product.

    KMan

    Quote Originally Posted by mtcali
    Another thing to ponder........next time your at the races see what the XC exp/pros are running. These are guys/gals who choose equipment stricly based on performance. Maintenance, money, weight, looks........all take a back seat to what works best, funny a lot of them are riding v's still?

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtcali
    Like I said......pro riders main concerns is the performance of their equipment. Sponsor would give em a set of discs if thats what they wanted. And as for the "1/2 lb extra" it is much more that that. My whole set up (levers and cables included) is about 500 gms.

    And no I dont think hardtail is superior, as with v-brakes they definetely have their place in mt. riding. And again, for XC racing they make the most sense. Again, next time your at the races see what the majority of pro/exp class riders are running........ hartails and v's.....what a bunch of retro-grouchs huh ?? But what do they know..
    Well, you have one light setup if your brakes are 500g!, I believe my Hayes are around 850g total and you can get lighter discs for 750g- I wouldn't say thats "much more" than 1/2 lb. I've done some racing and ride w/ some expert level racers- these guys take what their shop gives them and their other sponsors HELP pay for their racing, they do not get to choose their equipment. The pros want to ride what is proven and light, and discs are proving they are superior. In the very near future, you will see most racers on FS bikes w/discs because thats what the shops will be selling and once everyone sees the pros riding them, they will buy them too-like you.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    you will see most racers on FS bikes w/discs because thats what the shops will be selling and once everyone sees the pros riding them, they will buy them too-like you.
    So........what the shops are selling must be whats best for everyone. Wow..... well, WalMart & Target sell FS bikes so they must know whats best?? They do know...... they know what sells best thats their job to know...... and people LOVE bells and whistles....if it looks fancy and the shop is full of them they must be great !! you better get in line with the rest of the sheep I think WalMart has a sale going this weekend.

  35. #35
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    Oh and here are some photos of what the pros are running at our local races

    Quick search and here is what I can show from a few 2003 races:




    Quote Originally Posted by mtcali
    Another thing to ponder........next time your at the races see what the XC exp/pros are running. These are guys/gals who choose equipment stricly based on performance. Maintenance, money, weight, looks........all take a back seat to what works best, funny a lot of them are riding v's still?
    Attached Images Attached Images

  36. #36
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    one picture really doesn't prove anything. Also note cannondales, the high end models only come in disc.

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    Oh that would be "two" pictures....and.....

    and I have 3 others that I was trying to add to the post, but they were oversized and I was unable to post them.

    Feel free to check here http://www.mountainbikeracer.com/ and check thru the past expert/pro photos as pretty much the entire Trek factory team is running disc.....and you already saw the Cannondale Pro's as well.
    Not saying that all pros run disc or disc are better....just showing you the other side to your blind statement.

    KMan



    Quote Originally Posted by mtb_biker
    one picture really doesn't prove anything. Also note cannondales, the high end models only come in disc.

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    There are too many other factors in what the pros ride or use in any sport. Some of them do it because they only get certain sponsors, and when you get parts for free or half price you are likely to ride that instead of something else you pay retail for. I mean if hayes is going to give me brakes for free, am I going to go spend $100 to put xtr v's on my bike....of course not.

    On top of that if they are top pros lets face it, companies don't want to sell hardtails with v brakes on them. They want to sell $4000 XC full suspension bikes with disc brakes, so that's what they give their pros to ride. Shops are the same way, they don't want to sell hardtails with V brakes on them.

    Generally on most XC courses braking is pretty much a non factor, no one wins a XC race by how fast they can decend and time made up in a corner braking a little later. If that was the case they would be running more aggressive tires to go down and take corners faster. XC races are won climbing and in the flats......weight is a big factor in that, so if you can get 1/4lb off your bike in brakes that helps. Does it help the average even above average racer....no...well okay it does but when you are 5 minutes behind the leader a couple seconds a lap doesn't matter.

    Same with hardtails, no FS design is as efficient as a hardtail, period. Lets not forget what suspension was made for. It was never intended to save abuse to the rider or their legs by letting them sit on more sections, it was intended to keep the wheels in contact with the ground to improve traction in corners and stutter bumps. Again on almost all XC courses front suspension is all that's needed to keep the wheels in good contact wtih some finesse. Pro level racers can take the abuse a hardtail dishes out for 1.5-2 hours easy. If they were so out of shape they couldn't take that kinda abuse and be out of the saddle a little more they wouldn't be pros.

    Bottom line is it doesn't really matter what pros are riding, mostly because 99.5% of us are not pros, we don't train 6 hours a day 6 days a week, we are not national level competative racers, and we don't have the same requirements in a bike as they do. Cycling is thankfully, not our job.

  39. #39
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    Who said all pro's ran v's? I was merely saying discs have their place. I run both depending on the course/weather. I'm just saying that for most people's uses v-brakes are fine. There are times when discs offer a vast advantage, theres no denying that.

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    MtCali insinuated.......

    "Another thing to ponder........next time your at the races see what the XC exp/pros are running. These are guys/gals who choose equipment stricly based on performance. Maintenance, money, weight, looks........all take a back seat to what works best, funny a lot of them are riding v's still?"

    My discussion is based on this post.

    KMan



    Quote Originally Posted by mtb_biker
    Who said all pro's ran v's? I was merely saying discs have their place. I run both depending on the course/weather. I'm just saying that for most people's uses v-brakes are fine. There are times when discs offer a vast advantage, theres no denying that.

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    Carbon rotors on a bicycle.....man we bike nuts are some silly freaks.

    A friend of mine races street motorcycles, and he tried carbon rotors about 3 years ago. Now keep in mind his average lap speeds at brainerd raceway were well over 100mph, slowing down 500lbs of bike and rider, from 130-180+ to as little as 50mph in 10 corners, and he couldn't get them hot enough to really work well. Basically if you are not a full pro rider on a factory ride bike you don't carry enough speed to heat them up enough to get good grip.

    Somehow I doubt any road biker is going to get them hot enough to work. If they made them though, guys would certainly pay top dollar for them, that's for sure.

    It's like the new fad of having things with sharp edges made out of titanium, Titanium is a HORRIBLE material for holding a edge. You can't heat treat it anywhere near as hard as you can a good blade steel. However you stick the word titanium blades in a commercial and people will take out a loan for your product. The only good use for a Titanium blade was for spec ops and even then only around things that didn't like magnetic signatures like say mines.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtcali
    So........what the shops are selling must be whats best for everyone. Wow..... well, WalMart & Target sell FS bikes so they must know whats best?? They do know...... they know what sells best thats their job to know...... and people LOVE bells and whistles....if it looks fancy and the shop is full of them they must be great !! you better get in line with the rest of the sheep I think WalMart has a sale going this weekend.
    Um, I didn't say all that mess. What I said was expert/pros ride what they are given or paid to ride, and their sponsor/shop want them to ride what they are selling so people will see them riding it and buy their bikes. Thats why they sponsor or pay these racers-SO THEY CAN SELL MORE BIKES. You obviously believe that your a hardcore rider/racer that doesn't need gimmicks like disc brakes, well, thats what all the racers said about front suspension 12 years ago.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddM
    Generally on most XC courses braking is pretty much a non factor, no one wins a XC race by how fast they can decend and time made up in a corner braking a little later.
    Where do you live? What about those xc races that aren't held in Kansas? Do a few races in the mtns, and see how much difference it makes when you can keep up with the pack on uphills, and pass (and relax when you can't pass) on the downhills b/c of rear suspension and superior braking. And if you can't keep up on the uphills b/c an extra pound or 2, then you need to train more and/ or push yourself harder.

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    And of course the counter argument, if your faster uphill than the pack you can still relax on the way down because you're in front, and you get to relax on the flats and hills because you work less to get up. Even if you loose a little time going down you can still go faster on the flats and uphill. I could just say if you can't climb to the top with a hardtail and still work a little harder going down to keep up, then you need to train more.

    Notice I said generally and most.......it's a generalization. If you take all the XC race courses in the US, and keep only those that have as much decending distance as they do flat and climbing distance you'd have very very few courses left, if any.

    Here's a better way to look at it, go to a XC course, and time how much of your lap is spend decending, and how much is spent climbing and on the flats. You will most likely (Again a generalization, there are exceptions) spend WAY more time on the flats and climbing than you do decending. You want to max your speed over the longest time fraction of your lap if you can gain speed climbing and on the flats by dropping weight over say 10 minutes of a 15 minute lap, or over 5 minutes of a 15 minute lap, IMO you are better off getting the gains for 10 minutes per lap instead of 5. If you can make your efforts easier over 66% of the course instead of 33% of the course that's more efficient to me.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtcali
    Notice how the majority of posts here are for riders having problems with their hydraulic disc brakes? Only two applications where disc brakes make ANY sense are on downhill rigs and wet weather condtions. If you ride XC and majority of your riding is done in dry weather stick with the V's.... hydraulics are nothing but a pain in arss. If you like to dump more money, ad weight, and spend more time wrenching on your bike....then disc brakes are perfect for ya....have fun!

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddM
    There are too many other factors in what the pros ride or use in any sport. Some of them do it because they only get certain sponsors, and when you get parts for free or half price you are likely to ride that instead of something else you pay retail for. I mean if hayes is going to give me brakes for free, am I going to go spend $100 to put xtr v's on my bike....of course not.

    On top of that if they are top pros lets face it, companies don't want to sell hardtails with v brakes on them. They want to sell $4000 XC full suspension bikes with disc brakes, so that's what they give their pros to ride. Shops are the same way, they don't want to sell hardtails with V brakes on them.

    Generally on most XC courses braking is pretty much a non factor, no one wins a XC race by how fast they can decend and time made up in a corner braking a little later. If that was the case they would be running more aggressive tires to go down and take corners faster. XC races are won climbing and in the flats......weight is a big factor in that, so if you can get 1/4lb off your bike in brakes that helps. Does it help the average even above average racer....no...well okay it does but when you are 5 minutes behind the leader a couple seconds a lap doesn't matter.

    Same with hardtails, no FS design is as efficient as a hardtail, period. Lets not forget what suspension was made for. It was never intended to save abuse to the rider or their legs by letting them sit on more sections, it was intended to keep the wheels in contact with the ground to improve traction in corners and stutter bumps. Again on almost all XC courses front suspension is all that's needed to keep the wheels in good contact wtih some finesse. Pro level racers can take the abuse a hardtail dishes out for 1.5-2 hours easy. If they were so out of shape they couldn't take that kinda abuse and be out of the saddle a little more they wouldn't be pros.

    Bottom line is it doesn't really matter what pros are riding, mostly because 99.5% of us are not pros, we don't train 6 hours a day 6 days a week, we are not national level competative racers, and we don't have the same requirements in a bike as they do. Cycling is thankfully, not our job.
    I agree 100%, but you will still see even the top pros on FS bikes and disc brakes in the future, and it would be cool to see the courses get rougher w/ some real descending to take advantage of the technology. In the meantime, the rest of us(99.5%) could benefit from the technology now.

    Wait a minute, I do not agree 100%, only 90%- Quote "no FS design is as effecient as a hardtail, period." WRONG, you are basing this statement off of typical non-technical XC race courses, what about real trails w/ rocks and drops and steep climbs and technical downhills-an FS would smoke a hardtail.
    Last edited by rr; 03-05-2004 at 07:58 PM.

  47. #47
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    Just cos u guys dont have discs, my Vs don't work in the wet, they have proper pads.My FR bike with discs on it stops well, can take the wheel off with out haveing to piss around with the brake, if i taco a wheel i can get home, they look cool, THEY ARE BETTER THAN Vs!
    www.hope.co.uk

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    This thread is lame. Period. So, what's this discussion going to turn into now? Let's all go back to having our cars equipped with DRUM brakes again? They work in all conditions, right? I'll take my 4-wheel disc with ABS thank you very much.

    As was mentioned in many, many posts here, discs are current technology whereas V-brakes are, well, old news. Sure they work, but discs simply work better.

    I was running XTR V-brakes for years until Shimano released the XT hydraulics. After one or two runs down a local technical single-track without encountering ANY arm pump, I was convinced that discs were the way of the future.

    Go ahead and run your V-brakes. I'm sure they work perfect for stopping your tricycle in the parking lot.

    Embrace those who bring new technology. Fear those who are complacent with living in the past.
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  49. #49
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    Normally I contain myself from making these comments, but this one is too easy....

    "Embrace those who bring new technology. Fear those who are complacent with living in the past."

    This from a guy with a one gear bike in his signature line........talk about living in the past.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddM
    This from a guy with a one gear bike in his signature line........talk about living in the past.
    There's nothing "living in the past" about singlespeeds. Besides, even my singlespeed has discs
    Oakley - High Definition Optics

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