Results 1 to 79 of 79
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ratty2k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    577

    Time for new pads....

    Well, probably after getting the disc this hot........ somewhere around 350 C maybe a tad more...

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation: rcnotes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    60
    Smokin!

  3. #3
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    nice, you have now set me a challenge to compete!

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ratty2k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    577
    LOL! Mind you it aint warped the disc, pads are well and truely fecked. Plenty of meat left on 'em but the backing material has bent... Not tried to get them out yet!

  5. #5
    Expert Crasher
    Reputation: GreenLightGo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    6,355
    I bet you boiled some fluid too.
    Happiness depends more on the inward disposition of mind than on outward circumstances. Benjamin Franklin

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ratty2k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    577
    Well, swapped the pads out. The pads are warped slightly under the heat and the pad material seems pretty crumbly round the edges. Pushed the pistons back in and reset them with a couple of pumps of the lever and it all seems fine.

  7. #7
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    sweet,

    on my descent of Malham, I told my wife to feather the brake the whole way down (it was raining, I didn't want her to try and pull an emergency stop with wet rotors.)
    by the time she was at the bottom you could hear the hissing as the rain hit the rotor, the bazar things is the hissing went on for a couple of minutes!

    You could smell my pads a mile off too.

  8. #8
    Fossil
    Reputation: mtmiller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    434
    Is it just me, or are those pads not sweeping the rotor as they should be? Looks to me like the pads should be running a little farther out on the rotor...
    DB Dirt Club
    DBs on Dirt since 2010

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Keener's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    106
    Quote Originally Posted by ratty2k
    Well, probably after getting the disc this hot........ somewhere around 350 C maybe a tad more...
    off topic

    I would like if you please to see a better photo of that fork linkage as well as your thoughts about it's function.

    Thank you
    One pedal goes down
    the other goes up
    bike goes forward
    smile

    Bryan Keener
    HPV research since 1984

  10. #10
    Tulsa
    Reputation: rojogonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,083
    are those the mono 3 hopes?
    what pads do you buy for them, i'm setting up a set i got from ebay and having trouble getting the rear one to separate enough to clear the rotor on either side

    mine
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3382/...52c828.jpg?v=0

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ratty2k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    577
    mtmiller its the correct mount, so I'm guessing it should be like that. Had a compare to my Giant Reign and looks similar (Tech M4's on that)

    keener This is the best I have at the moment... Fork functions quite well, rebound is a bit quick for my liking- but needs adjustment still to fine tune. Anti dive linkage is brilliant, fork still operates normally for bump compliance but slam the brake on and no dive.


    rojogonzo No, they are the later Hope Mono Mini's

  12. #12
    Tulsa
    Reputation: rojogonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,083
    thanks

  13. #13
    Fossil
    Reputation: mtmiller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    434

    Hmmm

    Quote Originally Posted by ratty2k
    mtmiller its the correct mount, so I'm guessing it should be like that. Had a compare to my Giant Reign and looks similar (Tech M4's on that)
    Hmmm... something is strange. You're inner ~20% of the pad is seeing very little rotor and the brakes would see more swept area of the rotor if the caliper was spaced out a few mms. Maybe the heat situation would be better as well.

    When setting up brakes, I like to use a Sharpy (any marker will do) and make a line across the braking surface on the rotor. Then I put some light pressure on the brake lever and rotate the wheel a bit, dragging the Sharpy line thru the pads. The pads will erase the line where the pads are traveling. I tried to get the pads square and centered. With all the different sizes of rotors and adapters etc. out there, even when things should be correct, I've had to do some creative filing and spacing to get things right.

    ...just sayin' it's something you might wanna try...
    DB Dirt Club
    DBs on Dirt since 2010

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    541
    how did you manage to ride yor brakes long enough to burn them up that bad must been a terrible bad descent

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ratty2k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    577
    Long twisty road descent, I aint light either.... Musta been up at around 40 ish mph and hard application of what is an underpowered brake anyway soon gets 'em warm. Its a familiar smell to those that ride with me- scorched brakes! Not always to this degree tho I must admit!

  16. #16
    ballbuster
    Reputation: pimpbot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    12,702

    Try the sintered pads

    Quote Originally Posted by ratty2k
    Long twisty road descent, I aint light either.... Musta been up at around 40 ish mph and hard application of what is an underpowered brake anyway soon gets 'em warm. Its a familiar smell to those that ride with me- scorched brakes! Not always to this degree tho I must admit!
    I was doing great with my mono minis until I wore the pads out and replaced them with organic pads of various kinds. I put some Hope sintered pads in there, and the problems with overheating pretty much went away. I mean, they are a weight weenie xc racerboy kinda brake, so don't expect miracles. Also, Hope uses copper backs on their pads to get rid of heat. I found many aftermarket pads used steel backs, sometimes painted steel, and the paint will keep them from getting rid of heat.

    BTW, I'm 200# and ride 160mm rotors. I was overheating them only on long sustained descents, Like the kinds that drop 500 feet in a short run.

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ratty2k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    577
    Heh, the rotors are 203 front and IIRC fitted with SS pads, now fitted with a Hope set on front. See how it goes.....

  18. #18
    ballbuster
    Reputation: pimpbot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    12,702
    Quote Originally Posted by ratty2k
    Heh, the rotors are 203 front and IIRC fitted with SS pads, now fitted with a Hope set on front. See how it goes.....
    sintered or organic? Sintered is the same thing as semi-metallic. The organics go for around $15-20 a set, and the sintered list for $35, IIRC.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ratty2k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    577
    sintered, dont run anything else. Where we do most riding is very grritty and wwe have gone through pads in 15/20 miles if you ont run sintered. Although I do think bedding 'em in makes a huge difference to that as well....

  20. #20
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    I run organic for that reason, the dales mud has a very high oil content.
    The sintered pads get contaminated WAY before they wear out.

    Then again I have burnt up a £30 set of sintered pads in one day before.

  21. #21
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    Seems to me like the brake is doing what it should. There's a clear rider technique problem. The only other explanation is a brake mismatched for the conditions in an effort to go light. I rode minis on my 35 pound bike, using a 180 and 160 in the rear, huge, long descents, dragging and I couldn't even come close to that.

    As far as the spacing goes, it looks correct. There's a bit of the inboard that does not touch the rotor uniformly on purpose. It's a different way to get the same principle as the "wavy" rotors. Air gets channeled through portions of the pad during braking. However, the saw blade rotors maintain more constant overall surface areas than the previous round ones before where the brake track actually widened and narrowed. The tips of the rotor aren't as blued because of their exposure to air.

    My opinion is if the op did that, he likely would have done that on any brake. Warping pads, bluing rotors, complaining about power, all signs that the rider is using poor technique and over-working the brake.

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ratty2k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    577
    Ok, so on a 1in 4 maybe 1 in 5 descent on road, twisty and long 2-3 miles how would you use the brake? Never done it on any of the roacky descents that make up my normal riding. Just a case of when I get to 35 mph upwards I want to slow down- the brakes aint that powerfull, have had Avids with more power and the Tech M4's on my Reign stop me just fine different terrain and different use tho.

  23. #23
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    Don't you ever let the lever up for even a second just to allow some cooling air to get past the rotor and pads?

    I'm speaking from my experience with the Minis. I have done several miles of descent on them, kept in mind they are XC brakes, no matter what rotor was on, and I came nowhere close to that, even on 180's.

    Then comes the ever-present comparison of Minis with brakes not in the same category. I held off from buying Minis for a long time because I saw reviews like that, then I realized how flawed they were. People were not realizing Hope makes dedicated brakes for applications. One can compare the Mini to a Magura Marta, and of course, no one would imagine doing such a thing to Magura because it's well known the Marta is a superlight XC brake, but the Mono Mini, yeah, it can be compared to DH brakes. It's silly.

    If you're complaining about the brake, then you're either too heavy for it, and/or it's mismatched to you. For instance, you're running a 203 on it, which combined with other evidence in this thread, is indicating seriously to you being a combination of heavy or demanding too much braking, along with just dragging the brakes. You blued the rotors on a road, so I'm going to put it down that you're dragging the hell out of them, and with the 203, trying to turn them into a higher powered brake that you needed in the first place.

    It's pretty obvious the brakes are being misused in some respect and possibly even outside of their design function.

  24. #24
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    lightly draging a brake continually gets a brake hotter than speeding up braking hard for a short time, speeding up, braking hard.

    Hope brakes are amazing!
    My dad uses the mini aswell, weigh about as much as you but due to flawless technique I still think he is on his first set of pads, 3-4 years, he also has smaller rotors.

    He only every brakes when he needs to then brakes like he means it.

    excellent tenchnique.

    nowt wrong with the brakes, the rotors look cool and use them how you want to.
    I am assuming the reason they don't overheat when offroad is you on-off the brakes more due to the terrain but drag them on a road.

    I told my wife to drag them on the road to get the rotors hot.

  25. #25
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    Quote Originally Posted by ratty2k
    Ok, so on a 1in 4 maybe 1 in 5 descent on road, twisty and long 2-3 miles how would you use the brake? Never done it on any of the roacky descents that make up my normal riding. Just a case of when I get to 35 mph upwards I want to slow down- the brakes aint that powerfull, have had Avids with more power and the Tech M4's on my Reign stop me just fine different terrain and different use tho.
    "brakes arn't that powerful"

    I missed that comment before, they are really really really powerful.
    You should be able to tear your tyre of the rim if those brakes are set up correctly.

    If your pads are sintered I would guess contaminated.
    File them down a bit then put them on your hob and heat them until they stop smoking.
    I would reccomend baking your rotors too, but I think you have already done that.

    The only brakes I have ridden that are more powerful are Formula the Ones.

  26. #26
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    "brakes arn't that powerful"
    Not to mention there are 203's on there. Something is missing here.

    The only brakes I have ridden that are more powerful are Formula the Ones.
    What are you talking about?

    The Hope Mini had the M4, M6, and V2 above it in terms of power. The Mono Mini is a XC/light trail brake.

    The M6 does not exist anymore, and the M4 has been updated slightly for more power than it offered before, and the V2 is one of the, if not, the most powerful brake made today, something shared with the Magura Gustav.

  27. #27
    Crashin' since the 60's
    Reputation: bill-now's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    73
    [QUOTE=CaveGiant]lightly draging a brake continually gets a brake hotter than speeding up braking hard for a short time, speeding up, braking hard.

    I've always wondered about that. My theory which is mine is:

    Descending from point A and then stopping at point B requires the brake to dissipate a certain amount of energy. Dragging the brake allows this energy to be dissipated over a longer period of time, which results in a lower peak brake temperature.

    What you say
    Flick Lives!

  28. #28
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    The rotor may get hotter, but it's the pads/pistons/fluid/brake I was talking about.
    Rotor ditches proportionally more heat the hotter it gets. If the pads are in contact, thats where it goes otherwise it warms up the air.

    so hard short braking gets the rotor hotter, pads release heat goes to air, speed up, hard short braking, lather rince repeat.

    try it, go down a hill using short hard brakes, then do the same hill with a constant drag. The difference is aparent if the hill is big enough.

    I am assuming the rotor temp will peak higher but will average lower.
    Rotor temp doesnt really bother me as I run a 220 front 203 rear

  29. #29
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    The rotor may get hotter, but it's the pads/pistons/fluid/brake I was talking about.
    Rotor ditches proportionally more heat the hotter it gets. If the pads are in contact, thats where it goes otherwise it warms up the air.

    so hard short braking gets the rotor hotter, pads release heat goes to air, speed up, hard short braking, lather rince repeat.

    try it, go down a hill using short hard brakes, then do the same hill with a constant drag. The difference is aparent if the hill is big enough.

    I am assuming the rotor temp will peak higher but will average lower.
    Rotor temp doesnt really bother me as I run a 220 front 203 rear
    Is anyone else reading this post thinking the same thing I am?

  30. #30
    Crashin' since the 60's
    Reputation: bill-now's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    73
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Is anyone else reading this post thinking the same thing I am?
    Not me.

    What CaveGiant wrote makes sense to me assuming, which I believe to be true, that the rotors are capable of withstanding higher temperatures than the rest of the brake system.
    Flick Lives!

  31. #31
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    "No matter where you go, there you are"

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ratty2k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    577
    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    "brakes arn't that powerful"

    I missed that comment before, they are really really really powerful.
    You should be able to tear your tyre of the rim if those brakes are set up correctly.

    If your pads are sintered I would guess contaminated.
    File them down a bit then put them on your hob and heat them until they stop smoking.
    I would reccomend baking your rotors too, but I think you have already done that.

    The only brakes I have ridden that are more powerful are Formula the Ones.

    The Hope Mono mini is renowned for being a bit underpowered.
    I've had PLENTY of other brakes more powerful than these. Put a bigger wheel into the equation and it is more so. I do brake on and off for the record. And its only ever happened on this ONE LONG ROAD DESCENT. People seem to be saying that my technique is wrong without even seeing me ride or even being there.

  33. #33
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    Quote Originally Posted by ratty2k

    The Hope Mono mini is renowned for being a bit underpowered.
    I've had PLENTY of other brakes more powerful than these. Put a bigger wheel into the equation and it is more so. I do brake on and off for the record. And its only ever happened on this ONE LONG ROAD DESCENT. People seem to be saying that my technique is wrong without even seeing me ride or even being there.
    Really, that is one of the problems here. You know they're "underpowered", yet you continue using them. You know there are other brakes out there that suit your needs, yet you won't use them and complain about a purpose built brake that you selected wrong on. Again, I don't see people doing this with Maggie Martas. Not even Formula B4's. You even stated the other brakes on the other bikes were no problem. Maybe you need to use them?

    ...and again, it's not "renowned" for being underpowered. It's an XC brake and works really well in its application. The fact that you have a 203 on a Mini, and still blued the rotor and warped the pads is absolutely telling of the problem being you and not the brake. It looks like you're trying to turn the Mini into something it's not, like a DH brake. Incidentally, those who complained about it typically used it as a DH brake and couldn't figure out why it didn't work great for it. And I've done long runs downhill with it, using proper technique to slow my heavy ass and bike down and it worked, fade free, no blue rotors.

    So are you going to answer how much you weigh? It's probably not going to add up to why you used a 203 and blued the rotor.

  34. #34
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    I didn't say your technique was wrong, in fact Jerk did, said you dragged, for some reason I assumed that he was correct.

    I then expanded and tried to put a bit of science to it.

    I am a strong believer of there is no right way unless you are racing, I bike for fun so my techniques tend to be the most enjoyable. Probably why I tend to lose races =-)

    Jerk I am open to believe I have overlooked something key in my analysis, don't think I have though.
    I may have a firm grasp of thermodynamics, it does not however mean i overlook things or make mistakes so please enlighten me if I have missunderstood something.

    I believe that rotors are there to serve two functions, they are a non compressable braking surface and they are the primary heatsink.
    Pads can burn/melt, fluid can boil and most scarily hoses can melt off, this will all happen hundreds of degrees before the rotor starts taking damage. All I can think would happen is warping or melting if you are hammering it =-)?

    This is one reason why most DH racers use organic pads, they conduct heat poorly keeping the heat on the rotor where it belongs.

    I am eager to know if I have missunderstood something, so please respond fast, feel free to throw in equations if you want.

  35. #35
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    The mini are one of the most powerful brakes I have used.
    the key word there is 'I'
    I havn't tried the m4 m6 v2 etc etc.

    I also don;t think he was complaining about the brakes, just observing a rather cool fact of cooked rotors

  36. #36
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    a fun variation on the malham road decent, is most of the way down there is a 90 deg left turn with a gate in front. Go through the gate, technical rocky descent into malham.

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ratty2k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    577
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Really, that is one of the problems here. You know they're "underpowered", yet you continue using them. You know there are other brakes out there that suit your needs, yet you won't use them
    Losing my job has quite a bit to do with this........

  38. #38
    Sheffield,South Yorkshire
    Reputation: ibbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    424
    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    a fun variation on the malham road decent, is most of the way down there is a 90 deg left turn with a gate in front. Go through the gate, technical rocky descent into malham.
    It was actually the road descent from Weets top past the entrance to Gordale Scar campsite we came down,my front 203mm Avid rotor looked pretty much the same and i was "feathering"

  39. #39
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    Quote Originally Posted by ibbo
    It was actually the road descent from Weets top past the entrance to Gordale Scar campsite we came down,my front 203mm Avid rotor looked pretty much the same and i was "feathering"
    I have cycled up that road a ton of times, painful painful painful.
    Being unemployed as well is helping though.
    When employed I made it 25% of the way up before walking. This time I got half way up the gravel road before falling off.

    P

  40. #40
    meh....
    Reputation: Monte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    3,590
    Not that it will help very much, but the caliper is too close to the hub. The brake pad track could move out on the rotor a little bit. Sure it's the right adapter, but the combination of tolerances between the fork and caliper and adapter can leave the pads not in the perfect spot.

    Put some washers between the caliper and adapter to move it out a little. The pads shouldn't be hitting the rotor spokes as far down as they are.

    Look at the rotor inside the caliper, the edge of the rotor might be close to rubbing on the caliper too.

  41. #41
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    I guess you didn't read my post about that.

  42. #42
    meh....
    Reputation: Monte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    3,590
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    I guess you didn't read my post about that.
    You replying to OP, or me?

  43. #43
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    You.

  44. #44
    meh....
    Reputation: Monte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    3,590
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    As far as the spacing goes, it looks correct. There's a bit of the inboard that does not touch the rotor uniformly on purpose. It's a different way to get the same principle as the "wavy" rotors. Air gets channeled through portions of the pad during braking. However, the saw blade rotors maintain more constant overall surface areas than the previous round ones before where the brake track actually widened and narrowed. The tips of the rotor aren't as blued because of their exposure to air.
    Okay.

    Having the pads hang off the rotor isn't going to make them channel air any differently than if they were in full contact with the rotor. The gasses, if any, will still escape from around the edge of the pad.

    The tips of the rotor are not discolored because they aren't in contact with the pads. If the caliper was in the correct place the discoloration would be out on the tips too, and there would be more area of the pads being utilized for braking power, not scraping the rotor spokes.

    We'll just have to agree to disagree. You'll never convince me that disc brake pads should hang off the edge of the rotor, either inside or outside. That isn't how it's done in automotive brakes either. The rotor is usually solid all the way to the axle, no spokes or edge for the pads to hang over. Motorcycles don't have the pads hanging off the edge of the rotors either.

  45. #45
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    I see discoloration on the tips, although a different color. Look closely. Have you also seen heat colored metals? They tend to have gold and blues together.

    I'm not agreeing to disagree. I am and flat out saying you're wrong. Your experience with this case is looking at a picture. My experience is that I have no less than 9 sets of Hope brakes here, including that caliper/rotor type combo on several, and they all have narrow brake tracks. You don't seem to realize that the pad is actually a bit wider than the brake track. Had you installed them, you would actually know that. And according to the companies, yes, they help channel air. I didn't talk about "allowing gases to escape", which is something different altogether. Varying the brake track and profile is something Hope has done for years, and if you notice the holes in the rotor, it goes from 1 to 2 and then they vary in size as the rotor arms approach. There is something of a variation of the wavy idea the Galfer design has to supposedly channel some air around the rotor as it spins.

    Additionally, Hope has also said they designed the outer edges of the roter to shed more heat.

    So I might not convince you, but there are several companies doing it, such as Magura with the Marta, the Louise, Avid and Hayes when they did wavy rotors, Hope, and many brakes equipped with special designs like the Alligator rotors.

    Automotive brake comparisons don't apply here due to having the same basic similarities, but not having such things as rotor arms and fancy designs outside a round profile to deal with as we are here. The brakes are also purpose designed by the manufacturer of the car, who designed and manufactured the suspension, hub, and other drivetrain parts it bolts to.

    As far as Motorcycles go, Galfer sells rotors for them too.

  46. #46
    meh....
    Reputation: Monte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    3,590
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    I am and flat out saying you're wrong.
    You say that to a lot of people.

    Later.

  47. #47
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    Quote Originally Posted by Monte
    You say that to a lot of people.

    Later.
    No, don't go!

    Look at this in my user gallery. A round Hope (pre-saw tooth) rotor from a Mini, the whole profile is showing the brake pads (same as the user above) contacting right to the edge, but it also shows the varying brake track width (the surface area changes were conserved in the sawtooth design. Look closely and you'll see) and obvious pad "hanging" off the inner edge and rubbing along the arms.



    Just for kicks, I also replaced the rotor with a Maggie Wavy from a Louise (really great rotor!) and in essence, the pad will "hang" off the outer edge when the brake track moves in.



    Now note the size of the holes on the Hope brake track in relation to the brake track width. Where it narrows, they use small holes. Where there's more metal at the mounting, they use larger ones. To the left, they use one small, one large. They intentionally made this design for a reason, and drilled the rotor accordingly to keep surface area constant.
    The problem, Monte, is that you obviously had no experience with these brakes and made an evaluation off a picture. Maybe tomorrow I'll head down to check on the bikes and the box of Hope brake rotors I have and confirm the brake track findings I showed above.

  48. #48
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    Here's a Hope Gothic rotor that's been around forever. I wonder if the pad hangs off the rotor, ever?


  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mattbryant2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    1,162
    OP: Off-topic, sorry. What fork is that on your bike?

  50. #50
    Crashin' since the 60's
    Reputation: bill-now's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    73
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Here's a Hope Gothic rotor that's been around forever. I wonder if the pad hangs off the rotor, ever?

    IMHO, that rotor is designed to be pleasing to the eye, but is not the last word on braking efficiency.

    From a functional point of view, the ideal rotor maximizes surface area, which maximizes both radiated and convected heat dissipation. Rotors have slots and holes which help with surface area and also reduce weight. Having a brake pad that overhangs the rotor does nothing for stopping power and almost nothing as far as air flow over the rotor.
    Flick Lives!

  51. #51
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    No one made a statement about the Gothic rotor. We're also talking about fitment. This is how Hope, and several other companies design rotors. The question was about how the mounting was not correct. I argued it was spaced correctly. Monte, who just went off a picture gave out information that was incorrect. I have correct information from fitments I made myself, and supplied it.

    As far as what Hope is doing, argue it with them. I use them and they work. Yes, holes reduce weight, and they also allow debris clearing.

  52. #52
    Crashin' since the 60's
    Reputation: bill-now's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    73
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Here's a Hope Gothic rotor that's been around forever. I wonder if the pad hangs off the rotor, ever?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    No one made a statement about the Gothic rotor.
    Sure sounds like a statement to me.

    My opinion is that a brake pad that is not centered on the "meat" of the rotor is misaligned. A pad hanging off either the inside or the outside does very little as far as brake performance is concerned. Maybe, as I think you are claiming, all of them are that way, but it still doesn't make it optimum.

    Who does make that fork?
    Flick Lives!

  53. #53
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    Again, argue the "optimum" point with Hope. Perhaps they designed it around the smaller effective surface area to begin with? I don't see people complaining about Magura's Marta rotor, which is basically just a narrow ribbon of steel.

    Additionally, rotors with profiles like that are used for cleaning purposes as well. The description is in the Galfer patent as well, and is also in other forms for motorcycles and bicycles alike.

  54. #54
    Don't Stop Spinnin'!
    Reputation: ReD_tomato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    663
    that was a perfect chance for a free rotor tattoo... u missed out.
    ~every end is a new beginning...

  55. #55
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    Hahah...I've seen a pic somewhere of something like that.

  56. #56
    meh....
    Reputation: Monte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    3,590
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    No, don't go!

    Look at this in my user gallery....
    Having the pads overhang the rotor track in a cyclical fashion (making contact and not making contact) on a variable width or wavy rotor is different than having the pad overhang 100% of the time (never making contact with the rotor track) on a constant width rotor track.

  57. #57
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    It's not 100%.

  58. #58
    meh....
    Reputation: Monte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    3,590
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    It's not 100%.
    In the OP the pad overhangs the rotor track on the inside edge 100% of the time. You can't realistically count the rotor spokes for anything. All they do is clean/wear down the "inside" edge of the pads.

  59. #59
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    THe thing is, monte, you keep modifying your stance and defense to get off the topic of what you originally said. You said the caliper wasn't mounted right and should be moved outboard. I said "that's how Hope intentionally spaces the caliper" and I showed photographic proof. You have obviously not installed a single Hope brake, and still can't handle that fact. Let's not stray from the question of the mounting. Again, you said the caliper needs to be moved out BASED ONLY ON SEEING A PICTURE AND NEVER HAVING INSTALLED HOPES YOURSELF. I countered and displayed, from my own experience of using Hopes, that if the caliper is moved out any more, then the pad will hang over the outer edge. That's all.

    For other issues, I'm putting them below.

    Again, you need to call or email Hope about your concerns about the pad hanging off the inner edge, as it's been in their design now, through several different rotors, for a half-decade or more. That concern doesn't go through me.

    I have mentioned that the caliper spacing is correct, based on all of my Hope installations, and perhaps taking a picture of a pad on a spare rotor I have and posting it will show the pad will go to the outer circumference, but in portions, "hang" slightly off the inner edge. I've noted it as far back as 2006, and I've noted improvements in performance with the saw design. There is no uneven wear of the pad. Additionally, Aquaholic is using the narrow track rotor on the rear of his bikes equipped with V2 brakes, which are designed for wide brake tracks. He has experienced no uneven wear as well. I don't agree with it, and have noted it, but this is how they design them and the brakes work very well.

    Having the pads overhang the rotor track in a cyclical fashion (making contact and not making contact) on a variable width or wavy rotor is different than having the pad overhang 100% of the time (never making contact with the rotor track) on a constant width rotor track.
    With that type of Maggie rotor I posted above, the outer portion of the pad is not contacting the rotor approximately 50% of the time. The Marta is a different story, as the rotor's brake track is extremely narrow compared to the pads, and you get a small bit of arm rub too.

    Essentially, with a Wavy Vs. Drilled rotor design, they tried to quantify the surface area removed by drilling and put that into negative space in an effort to make a rotor's brake track solid and this was the Wavy design. Oddly enough, the other two unlicensed designs, like Hayes, had holes in them and wet braking was mentioned to be good, while the Marta with the same design, but no holes was tested against them with slightly poorer wet braking. The "wavy" design above is not the same as the Marta Wavy or the Galfer wavy, but is still covered by the patent and licensed.

  60. #60
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    [QUOTE=Jerk_Chicken]THe thing is, monte, you keep modifying your stance and defense to get off the topic of what you originally said.

    Jerk
    this would be a good time to explain your thermo dynamic model, I am interested to hear.

    P x

  61. #61
    meh....
    Reputation: Monte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    3,590
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    THe thing is, monte, you keep modifying your stance and defense to get off the topic of what you originally said....
    Dude, this is the last post I'm making on this. You're starting to put words in my mouth.

    I have not changed my stance, or gone off topic. My comments are based on the OP's picture, that's what this thread was about. If my comment about moving the caliper outboard to get the pads centered on the brake track better says something about the way Hope designs their stuff, then so be it.

    I've owned one set of Hope brakes, sold them, I didn't like the pad compounds. This fact has nothing to do with this thread, so yeah, I've essentially never set up Hope brakes. So what? How different are they to Avid brakes, or Hayes brakes, post mount calipers on an adapters. Or any other brakes for that matter. You keep dragging it back to Hope brakes, my comments are generic and I would make them about any brake that was set up like the OP's. It just happens that since the OP's brake is a post mount caliper on an adapter, it's easy to put some washers between the caliper and adapter and get the pads centered on the rotor track a little better, IMO. I've moved my Avid Juicy's out too because they didn't center up on the rotor track.

    If that's the way Hope designs them, fine. If I was the OP, I would move the caliper outboard. Nothing you've written has convinced me that having the pads hang off the inside of the rotor track 100% of the time like IN THIS SPECIFIC CASE, AND IN ANY OTHER CASE WITH A CONSTANT DIAMETER NON-WAVY INSIDE ROTOR TRACK EDGE has any benefit.

    Later.

  62. #62
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    Dude, this is the last post I'm making on this. You're starting to put words in my mouth.

    I have not changed my stance, or gone off topic. My comments are based on the OP's picture, that's what this thread was about. If my comment about moving the caliper outboard to get the pads centered on the brake track better says something about the way Hope designs their stuff, then so be it.

    I've owned one set of Hope brakes, sold them, I didn't like the pad compounds. This fact has nothing to do with this thread, so yeah, I've essentially never set up Hope brakes. So what? How different are they to Avid brakes, or Hayes brakes, post mount calipers on an adapters. Or any other brakes for that matter. You keep dragging it back to Hope brakes, my comments are generic and I would make them about any brake that was set up like the OP's. It just happens that since the OP's brake is a post mount caliper on an adapter, it's easy to put some washers between the caliper and adapter and get the pads centered on the rotor track a little better, IMO. I've moved my Avid Juicy's out too because they didn't center up on the rotor track.

    If that's the way Hope designs them, fine. If I was the OP, I would move the caliper outboard. Nothing you've written has convinced me that having the pads hang off the inside of the rotor track 100% of the time like IN THIS SPECIFIC CASE, AND IN ANY OTHER CASE WITH A CONSTANT DIAMETER NON-WAVY INSIDE ROTOR TRACK EDGE has any benefit.

    Later.
    They don't hang off the inner circumference 100% of the time.

    Moving the caliper out, under your suggestion, would make that case so, but now for the outer circumference.

  63. #63
    Crashin' since the 60's
    Reputation: bill-now's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    73
    Y'all must be looking at two different pictures. The OP's picture clearly shows pads that are too far in toward the center. The inside edge of the pad is only contacting the rotor spokes. The outside pad edge never contacts the outer edge of the rotor. Moving the pad out slightly will center the pad on the rotor face and result in more braking power.

    It may be that all Hope brakes are that way, but that doesn't make it correct.
    Flick Lives!

  64. #64
    meh....
    Reputation: Monte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    3,590
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    They don't hang off the inner circumference 100% of the time.

    Moving the caliper out, under your suggestion, would make that case so, but now for the outer circumference.
    It's like a train wreck, can't stop looking....

    The yellow lines are the edges of the pad track on the rotor, IMO.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  65. #65
    MTB B'dos
    Reputation: LyNx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    21,641

    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead!

    This statement is correct and I think what JC is trying to say. It is a manufacturing design that Hope and a few others use. I never had trouble with my Mono Minis and they had the same inside sweep. Thought it was kind of weird, but never effected performance for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by bill-now
    Y'all must be looking at two different pictures. The OP's picture clearly shows pads that are too far in toward the center. The inside edge of the pad is only contacting the rotor spokes. The outside pad edge never contacts the outer edge of the rotor. Moving the pad out slightly will center the pad on the rotor face and result in more braking power.

    It may be that all Hope brakes are that way, but that doesn't make it correct.
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??

  66. #66
    banned
    Reputation: Jerk_Chicken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    16,466
    Quote Originally Posted by Monte
    It's like a train wreck, can't stop looking....

    The yellow lines are the edges of the pad track on the rotor, IMO.
    Yep, and I also note discolorations outside of the blue, above and below They correspond to the sweep of the pad and with heating. I can guarantee that if a HQ picture is posted that doesn't need to be blown up 100x, it will reveal the pad is sweeping to the outer edge. Just because there's discoloration in a range doesn't mean that's the only place that's sweeping.

  67. #67
    mtbr member
    Reputation: vk45de's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    1,084
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    I can guarantee that if a HQ picture is posted that doesn't need to be blown up 100x, it will reveal the pad is sweeping to the outer edge. Just because there's discoloration in a range doesn't mean that's the only place that's sweeping.
    Your statements are a bit unclear. Are you saying that he drew the line wrong and the pad does sweep the outer edge of rotor? Cause it certainly doesn't look like it to me.

    As for your rotor and pad alignment, I would say it's good but it is very different from OP's alignment. I had similar problems w/ my hayes and every time the rotor spoke edge and pad edge came in contact w/ each other, it gave a jerk culminating in the ABS sensation.

  68. #68
    Crashin' since the 60's
    Reputation: bill-now's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    73
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Just because there's discoloration in a range doesn't mean that's the only place that's sweeping.
    Well, I disagree, but I also believe that your opinion is worth the same as mine. However you are correct, we need more better photos to close out this discussion. Nuf said for now.
    Flick Lives!

  69. #69
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Brewtality's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    5,666
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Is anyone else reading this post thinking the same thing I am?

    Ya, but where are we going to find six midgets in pink tutus at this hour??
    Its all Shits and Giggles until somebody Giggles and Shits

  70. #70
    Crashin' since the 60's
    Reputation: bill-now's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    73
    Quote Originally Posted by rsquared28
    Ya, but where are we going to find six midgets in pink tutus at this hour??
    Craig's list?
    Flick Lives!

  71. #71
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mattbryant2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    1,162
    Nobody knows what fork that is?

  72. #72
    meh....
    Reputation: Monte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    3,590
    Quote Originally Posted by mattbryant2
    Nobody knows what fork that is?
    It's one of these, not sure if they're made anymore.

    http://www.kinetics.org.uk/html/use_sub_fork.html

    Made by these folks http://www.use1.com/

  73. #73
    meh....
    Reputation: Monte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    3,590
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Yep, and I also note discolorations outside of the blue, above and below They correspond to the sweep of the pad and with heating. I can guarantee that if a HQ picture is posted that doesn't need to be blown up 100x, it will reveal the pad is sweeping to the outer edge. Just because there's discoloration in a range doesn't mean that's the only place that's sweeping.
    Anything outside the blue isn't touched by the pads.

    I'll now say good-bye, and good luck.

  74. #74
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Is anyone else reading this post thinking the same thing I am?
    Jerk,

    Still waiting for you to follow up on this?
    Or were you thinking, "wow what an enlightened informed post"?

    comon don't knock somone like a jerk, then flee like a chicken before backing up your words.

    p.s. while I am here, I file down my adapters so the outside of the pads lines up exactly with the outside of the rotor.

    p.p.s. instead of arguing about the analysis of a photo, why not just ask ratty, he can see his wheel spin. I would put money on monte being correct though.

  75. #75
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    72
    yep its a use fork anti dive i think.

  76. #76
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    124
    Hot is when i set of organic pads afire one time.

  77. #77
    Underskilled
    Reputation: CaveGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    4,118
    cool, now that I would like to see!

  78. #78
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ratty2k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    577


    What did I start!? I dunno, if everyone is soooooo worried about the pad sweep on the disc- you should get a bit more of a life!
    It aint warped, the new pads are fitted, it works fine. End of. I have never had the disc do that before regardless of which brake and my technique... Just one of those things I guess... I have now fitted Hope pads in front, as there may be a case of the SS ones being too damn hard.Will be interesting to do that ride again and see if I can feel/ see any difference in performance.
    As for the fork, yes it is a USE SUB 29er fork ass can be seen here....

    And yes, it IS pictured there with a 180mm rotor.... But the blingy ones went on my big bike (09 Reign) and the standard ones to the 29er.... Mainly because my new SIngular frame will be built with blue Hope components and I will be fitting the blue floating rotors..

  79. #79
    mtbr member
    Reputation: vk45de's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    1,084
    Quote Originally Posted by ratty2k
    What did I start!? I dunno, if everyone is soooooo worried about the pad sweep on the disc- you should get a bit more of a life!
    hey

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •