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  1. #1
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    Squeaky Wheel, Gnarlygig needs some words of wisdom!!!

    Hey Squeak, I'm making progress with the new caliper, but still a few hang ups.

    I've bled the system after preloading the new caliper with fluid, and installing it. I was worried right off the bat, because it was bagged up without any evidence of being tested out first, as per Lonnie's assurance. The bag did not appear to be opened, and restapled, and the caliper looked bone dry inside.

    The bleed process was not as difficult as I had thought, but learned a few tricks during the final stages, about the importance of securing the bleed syringe upright, so the bubbles evacuate to the top, carefully putting the reservoir cap back on and using even presssure on it while purging the trapped air, and tapping the line, as well as the caliper during the bleeding.

    It may have been any one of those things that caused me to open the reservoir back up, and get what was the last of the air I didn't notice, out of the system,

    The only hang ups now, are that there appears to be too much fluid in the system, because the lever doesn't pull as far as the front brake, and even after lubing both pistons, protracting them one at a time, then pushing them back in, I get lousy retraction, nothing at all like the front.

    I put the pads in without their retaining pin, layed the caliper over the rotor, to facilitate a quicker method of pushing the pistons back in, via holding the rotor on either side of the caliper, and pushing the caliper towards it each direction.

    I apparently made some progress with this, because the outboard piston at first, was the one hanging up on the rotor, now it seems to be the other way around.

    Part of what was baffling, when I was trying to unstick the outboard piston, was that in watching for protraction, after pushing both pistons all the way in, it was the first to protract, and very quickly, so why would it have hung up on the rotor, while the other one retracted?

    I'm beginning to think that this is a very finicky system, due to needing a perfect balance of piston seal friction and fluid pressure, side to side. On the other hand, the front works like a charm, with no tweaking.

    One of the things I noticed from the get go, while screwing the bleed syringe into the caliper, is that the fluid can drip out of the caliper a bit. This prompted a call to Magura, to ask Lonnie if I should situate the caliper at a level higher than the rest of the system, when putting the bleed screw back in at the end of the process. He said that it would be a good idea to do it that way, which I did. I also layed the bike on it's side, with the back end (stays) propped up on a chair back, and the front wheel and the handlebar on the floor, with the bar secured straight via my Park bar stabilizer.

    When I unscrewed the bleed syringe instead of seeing fluid up near the top of the hole, it was down in the caliper a ways, so I dripped some fluid into it from the syringe, tapped it, and screwed the screw back in tight.

    There appears to be no air whatsoever in the system, because the lever feel is very crisp, it just doesn't pull down very far. I can, however, still push each piston all the way in.

    The only thing I'm feeling good about at this point, is that there is a solid lever feel, which means at least I got all the air out.

    The best I can set up the caliper, is with one .2mm shim per bolt, rather than the two .4mm per bolt setup previously. Two .4mm shims, still positions the caliper centered, as before, so I'm not feelng good about taking it .6mm off center, just to appease the finicky pistons.This gives me only about a half revolution of the wheel more than I was getting with the old caliper, for a total of about 4.5 revs with a flick, but the 4 revs I was getting with the previous caliper, was with center spacing, not reshimming to adjust to the pads.

    I'm not sure if the poor retraction is more due to seal friction, or fluid pressure balance, at this point. I have lubed both pistons with Stanchion Lube.

    If you think I may have too much fluid in the line, can you tell me how to remove it, hopefully without going through the entire bleed process again?

    I'm really having my doubts that a LBS would have it completely drag free, if I were to give up and pay to have it done.

    There is one shop, however, that is verified to be trained well by Magura, that might be the exception. The only problem is, it involves either a 150 mi round trip drive, or a $20 plus ferry trip to get there.

    None of the nearby shops would be trustworthy IMO, as they all badmouth Magura brakes, and seem much less than eager to work on them, including one that says they've had the seminar. Lonnie said he saw this particular shop on the seminar schedule, but could not confirm if they'd completed it.

    As for the retraction problem, I'm at the end of my rope. I thought these brakes would be drag free out of the box. The info I read on the Cult site, kind of suggests that, saying no drag at all is acceptable.

    My biggest fear is loathing discs in general. I'm really trying to like these brakes, but if I end up wanting Vs instead, I'll be screwed, as the frame and fork are bossless.
    Last edited by Gnarlygig; 06-22-2004 at 08:19 PM.

  2. #2
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    Whew...That's a lot.

    Let's see. Sounds like you had good bleed technque. Good idea about raising the caliper at the end. I've know some guys who lay the back down on the driveside with the disc side up. Personally, I don't do either and view the fluid that drips out as just excess.

    I doubt you have too much fluid in the system. Have you tried adjusting the lever reach to get the desired pull?

    I've read & reread your post and am not quite sure that you've microadjusted everything following the bleed. Give it a shot. Push the rotor over to the pad side that dragging. While holding it there with one hand, pump the lever a few times with the other hand and repeat as necessary.

    A small amount of drag is acceptable while the pads are breaking in, but the wheel should still spin relatively freely and the drag should disappear after a ride or two.
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  3. #3
    Bodhisattva
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    P.s.

    Just thought I should add this...

    Forget about the number of spacers for now. The difference is likely due to a slight variation in the caliper.

    And don't be so discouraged. I understand your frustration but this is no way whatsoever will make your bossless frame obsolete. The worst case, I mean worst case, scenario is that you spend a few bucks and send that brake to Olney, IN so that Jimi & Lonnie can look it over. But I don't think it will come to that.
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  4. #4
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    Thanks Squeak, I'm trying to be patient, but I've already...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Just thought I should add this...

    Forget about the number of spacers for now. The difference is likely due to a slight variation in the caliper.

    And don't be so discouraged. I understand your frustration but this is no way whatsoever will make your bossless frame obsolete. The worst case, I mean worst case, scenario is that you spend a few bucks and send that brake to Olney, IN so that Jimi & Lonnie can look it over. But I don't think it will come to that.
    ...missed a lot of riding in better than usual weather, just waiting for this caliper to arrive.

    So you don't think my dripping a little fluid in the bleed hole before screwing it in caused there to be too much fluid? I'm having my doubts, because the lever pulled farther before, and now definately less than the front. If it's just a matter of changing the lever reach, no big deal, but if it's causing less retraction, I want to take some out.

    Part of what frustrates me about this, is having read many posts from others with the same problem, but came back on board after doing the piston in and out thing, saying, "OK, that did the trick", bada bing bada boom, just like that. Or, are they coming back onboard after hours of riding, starting out with still some drag, and eventually having them free up due to what must be a combination of heat and pumping the piston in and out?

    That and the still unexplained reasons for my front working just fine, but the rears seem to take more breaking in or something. Is it because the front brake heats up more, and has a shorter line, so it breaks in quicker, and has more powerfull retraction? Seems to me, it NEVER had drag, not even before I road the bike. Is the rear supposed to have as much clearance as the front, I hope it will with riding time?

    Many of the bikes that I've test ridden brand new, and also just pulling the levers of some on the showroom floor, don't drag. Are Maguras different in that they have to be broken in for the pistons to retract properly?


    Sorry about the question bombardment, I just don't have anyone locally to talk to about it, and you're no doubt the officianado online for this stuff. Just wish I could have trouble free setup and performance like 1 spd Mike did.

    I'll have to call Lonnie again tommorow, and ask him if he tested this caliper like he said he would. If I keep having problems like this, I'd prefer they exchange it for a used one.

    BTW, both caliper slots look to line up dead center with two .4mm shims.

    ....This is something I added to this post, after editing out some bogus things that probably shouldn't have been said, hey, at least I'm becoming self correcting.

    Tried the microadjust, despite my fear of taking the rotor out of true. As a result, I now have the caliper centered, with the original HH spacing, and can see minimal daylight on either side, of at least some portion of the pads, with what appears to be no sound of rubbing (hard to tell with the buzz of the Chris King bee).

    I thank you very much for sticking with me, despite my trying to perfect something that's probably commonly not perfect until broken in. I get the perfectionist thing from my dad's side of the family, and often it's my worst enemy.

    Now I'll shut up for a while, go out and actually ride the thing for a week, and let you know how it's going. Thanks again for being the trooper that you are Squeak.

    BTW, I spun the wheel giving it about the same flick with the pistons pushed in, and the pads not any closer than .5mm, and I only got about 5 revs out of the wheel. Seems most of that drag is just the King hub. I'm hoping several good long descents will free up both the brakes and the hub.
    Last edited by Gnarlygig; 06-22-2004 at 11:52 PM.

  5. #5
    Bodhisattva
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    Sounds to me like you're ready to ride.
    Daylight between the pads is a good thing

    The King drag will disappear after a few rides and you'll never notice it on the trail, just the stand. Be sure to take 2 5mm hex wrenches with you on the first few rides. The King hubs, particularly the rear, are expected to come loose over the first few days and can be easily readjusted trailside.
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnarlygig
    Sorry about the question bombardment, I just don't have anyone locally to talk to about it, and you're no doubt the officianado online for this stuff. Just wish I could have trouble free setup and performance like 1 spd Mike did.
    Hey Gnarly,

    Sorry to hear about your frustrations....certainly can't blame you. I'm a perfectionist too and nothing frustrates me more than knowing something should be working better, but it's not. It sounds like you've done everything right with your brakes, yet still can't get them to be 100%.

    I just finished 5th in a solo 24 Hr race this weekend on my Marta SLs and they were phenomenal...never gave me an ounce of problems. Braking was consistently powerful and strong with excellent 1-finger modulation. And, they didn't even make a single squeal. Granted, conditions could not have been better...very dry, hard-packed, etc. I still only have ~2 weeks on my Marta SLs, but so far, they are ranked right-up there with the Formula B4 SL (B4 SL+) as the best brakes I've used. Once conditions start to deteriorate, we'll then see how the Martas hold-up....so far, so good.





    BTW, when I did my bleed, I did not rotate my caliper so that the bleed valve was on top. As such, when I removed the syringe, some fluid did escape the system. Your idea of rotating the caliper on it's side so the bleed hole is on top is a great idea, but perhaps it is putting too much fluid in the system and not providing sufficient rotor/pad clearance.
    Ride Hard,
    Mike B. (MCM# 7.77)
    http://www.one-speed.com

  7. #7
    Bodhisattva
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    Actually, it sounds to me like he's good to go.
    He's got good lever feel and adequate pad clearance.
    Me thinks the drag is from the new King hub which is completely normal and will go away after a few rides.
    Glad you like them One-Speed.
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  8. #8
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    I can say without a doubt that if you can fully push the pistons back into the caliper, then you don't have too much oil in the system. If there was too much oil, you would not be able to do this. Also, there is a small hole in the top of the resevoir membrane and the brake lever to allow excess oil to be squeezed out ("open" system).

    Now quit with the analysis paralysis and get out there to ride the damn thing! And don't forget to have some fun.

  9. #9
    Bodhisattva
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    Good point Homebrew.

    It's nice to have another cult member piping up. Let's see you display that MCM number proudly in your sig.
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  10. #10
    Do It Yourself
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    How's this...
    Long Live Long Rides

  11. #11
    Bodhisattva
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    That's more like it

    I'd like to see a Cult revival like in the days of yore...
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  12. #12
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    Not exactly adequate, clearance wise, but acceptable for...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Actually, it sounds to me like he's good to go.
    He's got good lever feel and adequate pad clearance.
    Me thinks the drag is from the new King hub which is completely normal and will go away after a few rides.
    Glad you like them One-Speed.
    ...the breakin period, IF they develope into something on par with the front's clearance.

    Went out and road some very technical dirt trails in some tight woods today. The brakes performed pretty good for the first time on the trail, though I'd done a little prebedding of the pads with water upon the bike's arrival.

    The combination of the trailbike geometry, with sharp steering, and the BMX like low center of gravity this frame has, helps make me look a bit better than I am technically, on the rolling, tightly treed terrain, with many sharp turns, esp having been out of form for so long.

    I ran into a couple of old riding buds, and some locals that ride those trails a lot, who showed me the trails they ride. The combination of the dark, tight woods, and the maze like trail system, can require years to get to know the area by memory. Often times taking the map only gets you lost, thinking that you're somewhere, when you're not. I can't imagine riding the area at night, there are many places where 24" bars are a tight squeeze, and come in places that you need to use body english to go up and over and/or around something.

    I didn't notice until the end of the ride, when I was fairly tired, but relaxed, how smoothly this bike descends tight switchbacks, something I never have excelled at, but do OK.

    I'm already getting back that feel of wanting to ride longer rides, because my forte has always been finding a zone with my "second wind", so to speak.

    The Propedal Float R is going to take some breaking in. I've got it set at 3/8" sag, and am considering 1/2".

    The RLT 100 performs quite well, but I've got to take it down to at least 85 PSI. I had it set at 95 today, and was surprised it didn't sting my hands too bad, though the trails were mostly soft pine needle stuff. The diving on technical terrain was what made me want to raise the pressure. I could flick the lockout lever on, with the threshhold opened up, but in a riding area like that, you can't take your hands off the bars in very many places.

    The Frog pedals were easier to use on technical terrain than I expected, although never stepped foot in mud, something hard to avoid here in other times of year.

    I'm jonesing for Push mods front and rear, but I want to do both at the same time, and at this point, I don't want to part with the bike for even a week, esp with the weather so nice.

    I'm finding the firmness of the rear brake bleed I did, not only gives me ample power, it seems to help balance the brake power front to rear. I know it sounds a bit big headed, but I'm wondering now if the front could have been bled better at the factory. It may just be the pad spacing being significantly closer on the rear, much as Vs, and HS33s feel more powerful when you set the pads closer to the rim.

    BTW 1 spd Mike, beautifull hardtail, is that a Titus FCR? Looks like it has their signature dropout disc tab.
    Last edited by Gnarlygig; 06-24-2004 at 04:09 AM.

  13. #13
    Bodhisattva
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    So glad you're happy with the brakes, the frame...well, with everything.

    I hope you come to love that bike as much as I love my Hammerhead & Maggies.

    The HH excels in tight switchbacks. Just wait until you have to do a technical climb. That's really where it shines.

    Be sure to post your love over on the Titus board and consider submitting for Cult membership once you're seen the light. It won't take you very long
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnarlygig
    BTW 1 spd Mike, beautifull hardtail, is that a Titus FCR? Looks like it has their signature dropout disc tab.
    Actually, it's a custom Seven Ti singlespeed with EBB (eccentric bottom bracket). Here are some other pics.





    My frame was actually the first production EBB that Seven produced for a singlespeed. They were familiar with the concept since they'd used EBBs on tandems. I saw the EBB used on a prototype Ibis SingleMalt ~5-yrs ago and thought it was the best solution for disc and SS: no need for funky adapters, etc. I worked very closely with Seven on it's design and it's now a standard option on their singlespeeds.

    If you aren't familiar with EBBs, they allow for chain tension adjustment at the BB instead of at the rear dropout, like traditional SS's with horizontal drops. Horizontal drops aren't a bad-thing, but when you combine a rear disc brake that needs to have the caliper constantly aligned with the rotor, it can cause problems if the wheel is moved fore and aft. By using vertical dropouts and an EBB, there are zero problems!



    My frame is now on it's 4th season and, despite a few dings and scratches from wear-n-tear, it still rides like new and I absolutely love it...that's why I love Ti. I like to keep the parts semi-updated to keep the bike looking new -- brakes and forks, especially.

    On the Titus-side, I just received my new Ti Racer-X 100 late last week.
    Ride Hard,
    Mike B. (MCM# 7.77)
    http://www.one-speed.com

  15. #15
    A wheelist
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew
    ........there is a small hole in the top of the resevoir membrane and the brake lever to allow excess oil to be squeezed out ("open" system).
    Regretfully I have to take you to task over that statement HB. The hole is either in the cap (my old Marta) or under one of the cap bolts (newer brakes) and not in the rubber membrane itself.

    This hole does two things -

    1. Allows pressure equalization on each side of the reservoir cap seal (aka the membrane) {the engineery types might rip me on the exact physics of what's happening here but I'll take my lumps!}
    2. Allows any oil trapped on top of the membrane (due to a bleed) to evacuate itself.

    An actual hole in the rubber would allow reservoir leaks at anytime.

    The term "open system" refers to the system being open to, and fluid volume being compensated from, the reservoir. Magura HS series rim brakes were "closed system" - ie - no reservoir.

    "Know-it-all" Mike T. (mcm # 717, ONGO, msps #002)

    PS to the Cultsters here - great to see you using your Cult numbers! Use 'em with pride.
    Mike The Bike's home wheelbuilding info - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilder information and motivation.

  16. #16
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    I'm not part of the Cult but...

    It might be not 100% rightly adjusted. But after spending two hours working on the darn thing and getting more than 10 revs off the wheel after spinning with the hand I'd say you're ready to ride....

    A little break-up to pads and some real riding and you will notice easily what's going on.... I'm a perfectionist too... but when I feel frustated, all I want to do is to ride (if it's not going to brake anything though).

    For example... I complained on another thread that I just can true my Avid rotors even using some body english. I decided to ride them like as they are until the pads worn so bad that I would have to change them or I get the budget to afford a pair of new rotors (I want magura or Hayes wavys).

    So... go out and ride. After some riding you'll figure out what to do.
    Check my Site

  17. #17
    Bodhisattva
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    News Flash:

    Jude joins the Cult and somebody woke up the ONGO.

    Good point there Mike. Glad to see age and your aching back haven't slowed you down.
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  18. #18
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    I'm glad you are digging it so far. On your setup, are you sure you have the pressure setup right for the front? Sounds awefully high. I was using about 65-70 psi in my Float (I average about 170lbs+gear). Check your sag on that, you'll want close to an inch. On the rear, I would highly recommend the 1/2" of sag. I'm not sure you can get full travel otherwise. On the brakes, it takes a few hard stop (get up to speed and then grap two handfuls) to get them bedded in. Best to do this on a gravel road or similar surface so you don't wear your tires. You also might want to bleed the front as well to get a firmer feel. You definitely don't need a firmer feel in the rear brake. If anything, the front should be stronger. My Louise were rock solid from the factory although I do need to cut the line for the rear. We shall see how that goes whenever I get around to it.

    Keep us posted on your progress. You might want to start another thread in the Titus forum to get more thoughts on setup.
    Long Live Long Rides

  19. #19
    Do It Yourself
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    Thanks for the clarification. Just keeping you on your toes. I knew there was a hole there and fluid can come out because it did for me somewhere in the bleed process.
    Long Live Long Rides

  20. #20
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    did u finish building the racer-x? If so, post some pix.

    On the Titus-side, I just received my new Ti Racer-X 100 late last week.[/QUOTE]
    Read when you said you got it a couple weeks ago. Just dying to see some pictures of the build. Is that a terralogic on the SS? What are you going to run on the Racer-X?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by keypocket
    Read when you said you got it a couple weeks ago. Just dying to see some pictures of the build. Is that a terralogic on the SS? What are you going to run on the Racer-X?
    I got my Racer-X (with the exception of the King wheels and King Ti headset) last week. But, since I was so busy with the 24 Hr solo race, I just left the bike in the box because I didn't want to waste any time....gasp!

    Now that the race is done, I'm still waiting on the wheels and headset...they should be here this week. Then, that'll do it and it will be ready. I'm going to snap some pics of the build as I go and will post them here.

    Yes, the F80X with TerraLogic is on my SS. I also have a F100X for the Titus. So, both will be using the same fork, with the exception of travel. In fact, a lot of components will be used on both bikes because they've proven themselves time and time again as durable, reliable and dependable. Such items include:

    - King headset: standard on my SS; Ti on the RX (couldn't resist the Ti);
    - King hubs;
    - Moots Ti seatpost: straight post on my SS; lay-back on the RX;
    - FSA stem: XC-120 on my SS; XC-115 on the RX;
    - FSA cranks: Carbon Pros on my SS; Carbon Team Pros on my RX;
    - FSA Platinum Pro Ti BB;
    - 959 pedals;
    - Marta SLs;
    - ODI Lock-ons; and,
    - SLR saddle
    Last edited by 1speed_Mike; 06-24-2004 at 10:20 AM.
    Ride Hard,
    Mike B. (MCM# 7.77)
    http://www.one-speed.com

  22. #22
    judemonica
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    dragging hubs

    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Sounds to me like you're ready to ride.
    Daylight between the pads is a good thing

    The King drag will disappear after a few rides and you'll never notice it on the trail, just the stand. Be sure to take 2 5mm hex wrenches with you on the first few rides. The King hubs, particularly the rear, are expected to come loose over the first few days and can be easily readjusted trailside.

    Hey Guys, Awesome advice Squeeky! Rarely do people consider other areas causing the drag and problems! Usually we bang our heads over and over by ignoring logic and rationalle and throwing them right out of the window!
    Great job diagnosing!
    I see this often with hubs "setting in" and rearanging the rotor/caliper arrangement. People typiclly blame the brake, possibly due to it being the newest component in the equation.

  23. #23
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    where do you ride? wondering about the f100x

    I'm looking between f100x, 100rlt and manitou minute. I'm not sure about the spv and terralogic. I have a 100rlc on my hardtail and love it - but it does move when I stand up to crank uphill. I definitely don't mind the fully active nature when I'm seated. It handles small bumps so well and is so smooth. I do a lot of seated climbs so probably wouldn't want to give that up - but if the others are similar but get rid of the excessive movement when out of the saddle - that could sway my decision. thanks

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by keypocket
    I'm looking between f100x, 100rlt and manitou minute. I'm not sure about the spv and terralogic. I have a 100rlc on my hardtail and love it - but it does move when I stand up to crank uphill. I definitely don't mind the fully active nature when I'm seated. It handles small bumps so well and is so smooth. I do a lot of seated climbs so probably wouldn't want to give that up - but if the others are similar but get rid of the excessive movement when out of the saddle - that could sway my decision. thanks
    I ride in Eastern Ontario/Western Quebec. Locally, I ride at Kanata Lakes and Camp Fortune. Both are very technical courses with tons of rocks and roots. Speeds are generally slower because of the terrain. For trails like this, it's typically always open because of the ruggedness of the terrain.

    The courses I race on for Ontario-Cups, Quebec-Cups, Canada-Cups, etc., are generally much less rock-n-root infested, a little less technical, but with more sustained climbing....generally speaking, anyway and speeds are usually higher because of the terrain. This is where the F80X/F100X really shines because it does actually go from one mode to the other. During out-of-the-saddle sprints, the fork settles slightly in it's travel and then really firms-up...it doesn't completely lock-out, but comes pretty close. There is no bobbing.

    A prime example would be a race I did at Bromont when I first got my fork. This course does have some very technical sections, but it also has lots of climbing and some really nice, hard-packed, manicured sections where you can just rail the bike. The F80X handled all sections perfectly and provided confidence to nail the downhill sections and rock-gardens without having to worry about the legs wandering.
    Ride Hard,
    Mike B. (MCM# 7.77)
    http://www.one-speed.com

  25. #25
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    Yeh, I'm familiar with EBB, and it's purpose, although the...

    ...White Ind Eno hub is not a bad way to go either. The Kings definately have better bearings, seals, and are lighter though.

    I was considering a hardtail for marathons, if this bike is too taxing for long rides. Coming off a Ti hardtail (Airborne lucky Strike) that weighed 23 lbs, is a hard act to follow, distance and elevation wise. That's why my first considerations after the Airborne were softails in the 4.5 lb frame weight range, Dean Duke, Ibis Ripley, etc.

    Some say the Ripley, or now called the Fango by Castellano, rides better than the Silk Ti. At 1.25" travel, it's actually a bit more than the way I had the susp seatpost set on my Airborne, to minimize changing saddle to BB height dramatically, and limit the boing in the crotch syndrome, while stepping down, and getting off the back on descents. I ended up with about 1" of actual travel, after preloading the Rock Shox post.

    Dialing in and breaking in the HH, getting in better shape, and maybe going to the Eclipse tubeless system with the Karma 2.0s I'm running, may leave me with no need to supplement my XC equipment with a hardtail, or softail. My back's too frickin old and beat up for the zero or minimal travel stuff too I think.

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