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  1. #1
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    Shimano xt 8020 4 pistons

    The new 4 piston Shimano looks exactly like the Saint from its shape. Does someone know if there are some improvements versus Saint.

    How does Saint/xt compare to sram 4 piston dh model? Or Formula Curaís with 200 mm disc.

  2. #2
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    I just want to know if they addressed the wandering bite point issue that seems to be plaguing shimano brakes

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    I think they've had it fixed for a while. My 8000's are working great

    I'm sure the xt's are built with the same tools as the saints. The saints will most likely be moving towards an updated design.

    It's going to be tough to say until they reach consumers in decent numbers but I would assume more power and better modulation than the current design.

  4. #4
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    Seeing as saint an zee calipers come from the same "mold" thoughts are that the XTs are actually replacing the Zee's or as mentioned updates to Shimano 4 pot brakes are coming.

    And performance is going to be that of current Zee's is whats being said so far.

    Im actually considering getting one of these calipers after the holidays.

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  5. #5
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    I believe Zee uses the slx levers, which are not servovawe. The initial information was, that current xt handles work with new 4 piston xt caliber, but there will be specific model next to launch. According to my view, the lever piston needs to move more fluid for larger volume of 4 pistons compared to present 2 piston xt levers. Then again, will the new xt handle be only renamed old Saint lever? Caliber itself will be the old Saint, that is for sure. Nice long wait for nothing if those are actually the Saints with XT labels.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordic09 View Post
    I believe Zee uses the slx levers, which are not servovawe.
    You believe wrong. SLX have servo wave.

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    Ok then. Main concern is if it is worthwhile to wait for the 4 piston xt or just buy Saints which are at ok price level right now.

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    Well if you think about out it, saints are the XTR rank of 4 pot brakes. I dont foresee the new xt 4 pots being better than saints. More like maybe close, or more like zees.

    Fyi zee and saint are like slx and xtr. No bling, less knobs, slightly heavier. Which is why I would expect the new XTs to fall in between somewhere.

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordic09 View Post
    Ok then. Main concern is if it is worthwhile to wait for the 4 piston xt or just buy Saints which are at ok price level right now.
    From what I can tell the only real difference (other than cosmetics) is the lever clamp; If you need the thin clamp and iSpec 2, you have to wait. If you can live with the thick clamp and iSpec b, Saints are available now.

  10. #10
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    Thx, that would be the level of changes what I thought, beside of the coloring. Anyone know if there has been some improvement in Shimano brakes bleeding lately? They advertise about the one way bleeding, something new or just marketing?

  11. #11
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    Improvements??? Shimano is already the easiest brakes to bleed by far. Seem to be the same between older m615 m675 etc and be2 m7000/8000. Takes 20 minutes to do both wheels, once every couple years. They dont have the problems like others unless their was a factory assembly/bleed issue which usually fixed by tightening fittings and doing a quick bleed.

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  12. #12
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    Im curious with this as well...

    Im having a hard time figuring out what brakes I want.
    I want something as light as possible, don't want to brake the bank BUT willing to if I have dependable, reliable, strong, light brakes.

    all from what i've read-
    hope tech E4 are annoying to bleed, takes time and patience but worth it in the end
    Saints are older style and heavy but amazing stopping power
    xt and xtr have the wandering bite point
    guides are having stuck pistons ( i believe thats the issue)

    My other question is- is there a difference between the saints and new xt m8020?

  13. #13
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    Xt/xtr wondering bite point has been fixed for a year or so now. Some of the versions that did that may be on bikes in warehouses still but doesnt exist on aftermarket brakes anymore.

    And truth be told, it wasnt bad brakes causing it, bad assembly. If you shortened the hose, bleed the brakes and problem gone for many.

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  14. #14
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    my new trail bike came with slx levers and calipers, are you saying i just have to change the calipers to zee to have full zee brakes? whats beter servowave or without?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    my new trail bike came with slx levers and calipers, are you saying i just have to change the calipers to zee to have full zee brakes? whats beter servowave or without?
    yes, Zee and SLX levers are the same thing (the old m670 levers, not the new m7000).
    Servowave or not is a matter of preference, but both SLX and Zee have it. XTR race is the only shimano brake that doesn't have servowave as far as I know.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHMB View Post

    all from what i've read-
    hope tech E4 are annoying to bleed, takes time and patience but worth it in the end
    The Hopes are a different bleed for sure, but definitely not annoying. No syringes or special tools needed. DOT fluid is a bit messier than the mineral oil in Shimano brakes, but bleeding the Tech E4s takes less than 5 minutes once you figure out how they work.

    I had XT m8000 levers matched up to Saint m820 calipers and they required way more maintenance (in the form of fluid top-offs) and didn't feel as nice as the Hopes.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordic09 View Post
    I believe Zee uses the slx levers, which are not servovawe. The initial information was, that current xt handles work with new 4 piston xt caliber, but there will be specific model next to launch. According to my view, the lever piston needs to move more fluid for larger volume of 4 pistons compared to present 2 piston xt levers. Then again, will the new xt handle be only renamed old Saint lever? Caliber itself will be the old Saint, that is for sure. Nice long wait for nothing if those are actually the Saints with XT labels.
    Saint levers may be different than two-pistion levers, but there's not much difference.

    I have a set of Saint calipers running off XT levers on one bike and another with full Saint, the full Saint is probably a little more powerful, but XT levers and Saint calipers are still pretty damn powerful...there's just no comparison to XT calipers, wwwwaaaaayyyy more power, lever effort is luxuriously low, comfortable and super easy to modulate.

    I've had the XT/Saint setup for 18 or so months, got a great bleed on the first try and haven't had a problem. If you keep having to add fluid, you've got a leak, or you got unlucky while bleeding and have bubbles trapped somewhere that are slowly escaping.

    CN: Just buy the new XT 4-pot calipers if you already have Shimano brakes.

  18. #18
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    They look like Saint's

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    Thanks for the comments. It seem that nowadays it is difficult to find good and reliable brakes. Previously had Avids and other SRAM products with constant need for the bleeding. I'm running the Formula's now, since 6 years and while the reliability is good and brakes are light - the bite feel is not adequate. I believe that the new xt 4 pots will be very good, only disappointing from the weight point of view as a trail brake. Funny that Saint design is quite old and was not considered earlier as a trail brake, but it is a modern trail/enduro brake now according to today's std

    Btw, they say that Formula is inяroducing 4 pot Cura's, which looks interesting too. Decided to wait a bit, what Shimano XT reviews say.

  20. #20
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    Shimano xt 8020 4 pistons

    Iíve got 2 pot curaís and really really rate them, thatís having used both M820 and M9020, I prefer the feel which is similar to guides for modulation but shed loads of power and non of the Guide fade (Iíve previously faded Guide RSCs in the Alps - havenít faded the Curas)


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  21. #21
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    but bleeding the Tech E4s takes less than 5 minutes once you figure out how they work
    Sheesh! It takes me 20 minutes just to remove the brake from my bike and get the brake lever mounted level on some beater bars and the caliper hanging straight down. Another hour for bleeding (two hours if I screw something up and introduce air into the system), and 20 minutes to remount the brake on my bike. After the bleed, getting the pads adjusted takes more time, so around 2 hours total--per brake.

    On the other hand, it takes me 3-4 hours per XT brake, and I never get a good bleed on the rear--I struggle just to get the rear brake to be usable. And I spill mineral oil everywhere. With the Tech3 E4's, I tend to just drip some DOT fluid from the lever, so not as much spillage.

    I've done two bleeds on the Hope's and around eight bleeds on the XT's.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by happyriding View Post
    Sheesh! It takes me 20 minutes just to remove the brake from my bike and get the brake lever mounted level on some beater bars and the caliper hanging straight down. Another hour for bleeding (two hours if I screw something up and introduce air into the system), and 20 minutes to remount the brake on my bike. After the bleed, getting the pads adjusted takes more time, so around 2 hours total--per brake.

    On the other hand, it takes me 3-4 hours per XT brake, and I never get a good bleed on the rear--I struggle just to get the rear brake to be usable. And I spill mineral oil everywhere. With the Tech3 E4's, I tend to just drip some DOT fluid from the lever, so not as much spillage.

    I've done two bleeds on the Hope's and around eight bleeds on the XT's.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by happyriding View Post
    Sheesh! It takes me 20 minutes just to remove the brake from my bike and get the brake lever mounted level on some beater bars and the caliper hanging straight down. Another hour for bleeding (two hours if I screw something up and introduce air into the system), and 20 minutes to remount the brake on my bike. After the bleed, getting the pads adjusted takes more time, so around 2 hours total--per brake.

    On the other hand, it takes me 3-4 hours per XT brake, and I never get a good bleed on the rear--I struggle just to get the rear brake to be usable. And I spill mineral oil everywhere. With the Tech3 E4's, I tend to just drip some DOT fluid from the lever, so not as much spillage.

    I've done two bleeds on the Hope's and around eight bleeds on the XT's.
    How is that even possible. I can do my shimano brakes in 15-20 minutes. Thats for both brakes.

    Taking off the bike, why??? Absolutely no reason to.

    Problems bleeding rear brake, your letting air in.

    If your bleeding more than once every year or too, you badly messed something up.

    None of this is the fault of the brakes, time and bleeding problems are solely caused by you in this case. Removing and hanging the caliper randomly is your first and biggest mistake.

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  24. #24
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    The caliper bleed fitting and hose need to be above the caliper pistons in order to purge air out from behind the pistons using gravity. On some bikes this means taking the caliper off for bleeding.
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    Taking off the bike, why??? Absolutely no reason to.
    Well, because I have such a hard time getting a good bleed, I try to start with the ideal setup for bleeding.

    And I've never done a bleed where air bubbles stopped coming out of the caliper. After using up a bunch of brake fluid, I just decide enough is enough.

  26. #26
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    If air bubbles keep coming out 4 things are happening:

    Not properly using bleed funnel (it has an oring on it to seal). Must have some fluid in it.

    Lines are not properly sealed at lever or caliper

    Bleeder or hose attachment not sealing correctly at caliper.

    Injecting air with syringe at caliper possible due to reason above.

    Big thing is to make sure you have proper tools. Shimano bleed funnel mainly. You can purchase proper hose and syringe yourself.

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  27. #27
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    Random question about Shimano brakes in general: any reason to flush the fluid? Perhaps if you suspect you overheated it and "charred" whatever's in it?

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by dv8zen View Post
    Random question about Shimano brakes in general: any reason to flush the fluid? Perhaps if you suspect you overheated it and "charred" whatever's in it?
    I would flush the fluid every 2 years or so. It does get contaminated with grime thru the piston seals, although this happens very slowly. Older fluid will be darker in color because of this. I dont know if the fluid itself breaks down, never experienced that.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    If air bubbles keep coming out 4 things are happening:
    Not properly using bleed funnel (it has an oring on it to seal). Must have some fluid in it.
    I think the bleed funnel seals fine--at least there is no leaking. When I screw in the funnel, I can feel the o-ring compress.

    Lines are not properly sealed at lever or caliper
    I think that is most likely the cause but it seems coincidental that I see bubbles with both my old XT brakes and my new Hope brakes. I haven't shortened the brakes lines for my Hope brakes.

    Bleeder or hose attachment not sealing correctly at caliper.
    The first few times I bled my XT brakes I had some hose that didn't fit very tightly on the bleed nipple and it would blow off if I wasn't careful. But later I found some smaller hose that is very hard to fit over the bleed nipple, and when I finally get the hose seated it is on tight.

    Injecting air with syringe at caliper possible due to reason above.
    I'm pretty careful with that, and it's the reason I spill so much mineral oil. I draw a syringe full of mineral oil out of a large Shimano container, then I turn the syringe upside down and squeeze the plunger until all the air flows out of the syringe. Then while squeezing the syringe so that oil is flowing out of the end of the tubing, I attach the tubing to the bleed nipple. I then look at the tubing for any trapped air bubbles, and if air bubbles are present I unhook the tubing from the bleed nipple and try again.

    Big thing is to make sure you have proper tools. Shimano bleed funnel mainly. You can purchase proper hose and syringe yourself.
    Yep, I've got all that stuff.

  30. #30
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    any reason to flush the fluid?
    I do it when my brakes start failing, which is about every 6-8 months (XT M785's). The normally red/pink mineral oil looks like coffee when I drain it with a gravity bleed.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by dv8zen View Post
    Random question about Shimano brakes in general: any reason to flush the fluid? Perhaps if you suspect you overheated it and "charred" whatever's in it?
    I just swapped fluid on my Zees after 6 months of use and the fluid still looked good.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by happyriding View Post
    I do it when my brakes start failing, which is about every 6-8 months (XT M785's). The normally red/pink mineral oil looks like coffee when I drain it with a gravity bleed.
    I think there is something seriously wrong with your brakes
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    I think there is something seriously wrong with your brakes
    You are probably right. I should just replace them as XT's are pretty cheap.

  34. #34
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    The XT BR-M8020, 4pot calipers, are listed at 288Ä pair, and will be available in at least six weeks.
    I will probably get a single caliper and do something like the Magura MT Trail.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by dv8zen View Post
    Random question about Shimano brakes in general: any reason to flush the fluid? Perhaps if you suspect you overheated it and "charred" whatever's in it?
    Theoretically moisture can get into the brake system, and with mineral oil brakes like shimano you need to bleed them to get that moisture out because the oil does not absorb the water and it can pool at the caliper and cause issues. Reality is that a properly sealed system will go years without significant moisture build up, but it is better to be safe I suppose.

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