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  1. #1
    Riding free's the mind
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    Same vibration issue on Elixir as Juicy

    I was shocked this morning riding down a fire trail at moderate speed and my new Elixir rear caliper started to make the nasty vibration/buzz as my Juicy7's did before. Previous ride did not make this noise. What changed?.... I sucked some fluid out of the lever hoping for more pad/rotor gap.

    So it seems, and I'll verify this after re-bleeding the system, that pad buzzing might be due to a brake system that needs more fluid or bleeding? The other possibility is a slight side to side shimmy in my rear wheel, the hub bearing might need tightening.

    I'm thinking it's not the brakes, as both my old Juicy's and new Elixir rear brakes are doing the same thing.
    [SIZE=2]Question to a custom frame builder..."So what makes your bikes climb better?"....his answer, "Uh, your legs?"[/SIZE]

  2. #2
    ...idios...
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    "I sucked some fluid out of the lever hoping for more pad/rotor gap."

    Should your brakes last that long, you'll end up with air inside the line once the pads have worn beyond a certain point. Your system (reservoir) is now under-filled, but you haven't altered the amount of working fluid in the brake line or caliper.

    Do the Elixir and Juicy both use the CPS? Have you tried setting the calipers up without using the CPS method?
    .
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    What luck for rulers, that men do not think - Adolf Hitler

  3. #3
    Meh.
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    If your hub has a bit of play, this can definitely cause the problem.

  4. #4
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    Yup, bleed the system and aligned per/Avid's instructions also aligned visually as I know how finicky the CPS can be. Was working fine except for slight pad/rotor rub (not due to alignment, not enough gap). The buzz/vibs started after I sucked out fluid? Also seems to occur when outside temps are colder.
    [SIZE=2]Question to a custom frame builder..."So what makes your bikes climb better?"....his answer, "Uh, your legs?"[/SIZE]

  5. #5
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    are you using the Elixirs on the same bike that had the Juicy's?

  6. #6
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    Yup, same bike, occurs rear wheel only. CPS, mounting bracket, and rotor are tight. the only play (not much) seems to be slight side to side on the wheel (hub).

    Quite a disturbing buzz, starts at higher speeds, goes away as I slow down. Occurs more when the weather is cold. Grabbing the brakes doesn't stop the buzz, only slower speed stops it...perplexing when you think about it.
    [SIZE=2]Question to a custom frame builder..."So what makes your bikes climb better?"....his answer, "Uh, your legs?"[/SIZE]

  7. #7
    Meh.
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    As I said... play in the hub can cause this issue.

    If you didn't recenter the caliper after sucking out fluid, it's probably coincidental.

  8. #8
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    I just cleaned/lubed my CrossMaxSL hubs this evening and splurged on Enduro ceramic replacement bearings. Should be back together nice and snug, so we'll see if this vibration occurs later this week....fingers crossed!.
    [SIZE=2]Question to a custom frame builder..."So what makes your bikes climb better?"....his answer, "Uh, your legs?"[/SIZE]

  9. #9
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    What frame is it?

    Some frames are inclined to create this noise and I suspect the front brake is quite.

  10. #10
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    I have an 2001 Ellsworth Truth. This buzz/vib just started happening this summer, first with the Juicy7's and now with the Elixirs.

    Up until this week I hadn't done any real maintenance to the CrossMx wheels, nor the frame linkages. I ordered Enduro ceramic bearing for the hubs, also got their suspension sealed bearing & bottom bracket kit, figured it's about time to rebuild everything. Probably also tighten the spokes which seem looser in the rear than front. The frame and wheels have been pretty damn bullet proof - hadn't realized how many years had passed with no issues.

    Hopefully the combination of all these rebuilds will quiet things down. I replaced all the CrossMx bearing last night and cleaned/re-lubed the freewheel. The wheels run slick like ice! BTW- the Mavic instructions for disassembling the hubs are pathetic, luckily it's a fairly simple mechanism, once you get into it.
    [SIZE=2]Question to a custom frame builder..."So what makes your bikes climb better?"....his answer, "Uh, your legs?"[/SIZE]

  11. #11
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    Quote Originally Posted by HTail
    What changed?....
    Not your brand of brakes.

    Avid seems to suffer from this more than any other brake manufacturer.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  12. #12
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    After fighting with this same issue for months on two different bikes with Avid brakes, and trying everything I read in this forum, and whatever Avid told me, I made the move back to Shimano. Problem solved. Nothing ever made my Avids stop this horrible vibrating. Funny how it stopped right after I put some STX brakes on one bike, and my old XTR's on the other. Have not had the problem since.

    My number one reason for getting the Avid brakes was the adjustability of the calipers. Now that Shimano uses a similar centering system, I'll never go back.

    God luck

  13. #13
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    Interesting

    Interesting to hear this, anyone else drop Avid's for another brand and vibration problem solved? Disc braking life better?

    For me, the Juicy7's were fine for 3+ yrs before this started. Maybe it's case by case, but I'm hoping it's something else on my bike causing or initiating this vibration due to need for some kind of tuneup/maintenance. Note that this happening only in the rear.

    With that said, anyone have a clue as to what exactly is vibrating or buzzing? This is not a squeal or noise issue, this is the rather violent buzz, like something's caught between the rotor and caliper.

    My assumption is the pads somehow creeps towards the rotor and buzz's? What's weird is that even when I clench down on the brakes to stop the buzz it keep going until my speed is reduced. As I said before, perplexing!
    [SIZE=2]Question to a custom frame builder..."So what makes your bikes climb better?"....his answer, "Uh, your legs?"[/SIZE]

  14. #14
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    No but My Avid Elixir CR's have just started making a tizzing noise on the front at higher speeds and stops at lower speeds, not had time to examine yet but the CR's have a pad adjustment barrel on them so I'm going widen the pistons to see if it stops it.

  15. #15
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    My rear Juicy 7 developed the vibrations and howling at about 3-400 miles. I changed the pads to Kool Stop's and all was good for several hundred miles. When it started again and nothing else seemed to help, I switched to a Galfer rotor and pads in the back. That was in July and it is still working great.

  16. #16
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    Took my bike out this afternoon and it seems rebuilding the rear hub/freewheel did the trick. Maybe it was as simple as tightening the hub axel/spindle, but "so far" it behaved at speed and over rough terrain.

    In addition to the hub rebuild, I also re-bled the brakes and did the CPS adjustment several times until the wheels spun relatively free. Inspecting the caliper pistons with the pads out, it appears Elixirs are meant to run the pads pretty close to the rotor. Even after pushing the pistons in as far as they will go, there's still very little gap.

    We'll see how it holds up Friday when I ride again.
    [SIZE=2]Question to a custom frame builder..."So what makes your bikes climb better?"....his answer, "Uh, your legs?"[/SIZE]

  17. #17
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    Just re centered my calipers, took a while to get just right but have managed to get it perfect now with no tizz/buzzing. I think the rotors warp ever so slightly and catch on the pad, strange how it disappears at low speeds though.

  18. #18
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    Alignment

    It's been my experience that alignment is key to quiet brakes no matter what brand you have. If you think about it, the pads are essentially floating over the pistons and inside the caliper. Any slight skew to the alignment as you say will "catch" the pad edge and buzz or vibrate......at least this is my diagnosis so far.

    As I noted for myself, it appears the rear hub had some play which in effect did the same thing making the rotor scrape the pads and vibrate at speed.
    [SIZE=2]Question to a custom frame builder..."So what makes your bikes climb better?"....his answer, "Uh, your legs?"[/SIZE]

  19. #19
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    Probably Not the Brakes

    Avid brakes do tend to make a "Turkey Gobble"/howling noise when not centered correctly, but if it is a BUZZ, then it is your hubs. I have a set of Crossmax that make that exact noise when the plastic bushing on the freehub wears out. Once that happens your freehub body is toast. I replace the freehub body at least once per year. Check the Wheels forums and you will see lots of other people with this issue. This diagnosis is corroberated by the fact that when you sqeeze the brakes the buzz does not go away... only when you slow down. This is easily verified by seeing how much play is in your cassette. Just reach down and grab it an see if you can turn it side to side. Any more than a few mm of play and voila...thats the buzzing source.

  20. #20
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    Free hub or axel?

    Are you referring to the freewheel or axel/bearing assembly? I'm not quite visualizing how a loose FH can effect the disc brakes? Or are you saying it's the FH itself that is buzzing, not the brakes?
    [SIZE=2]Question to a custom frame builder..."So what makes your bikes climb better?"....his answer, "Uh, your legs?"[/SIZE]

  21. #21
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    On the Mavic crossmax wheelsets the freehub body has a plastic bushing that wears out pretty easily (not the axle). A sign of this wearing out is a distinct Buzzing caused by play in the bushing. This buzzing usually crops up at high speed. This also happens if you dont keep mineral oil in the freehub and the bushing will start to drag. It has nothing to do with the brakes and is why the sound is still there when you changed brakes. Like I said in my earlier post, you can diagnose this in about 10 seconds by checking play in your cassette.

    You should service the hub every three months or so. It only takes a few minutes if you have a cassette removal tool and chainwhip.

    Picture here: http://www.jensonusa.com/store/produ...b+Body+06.aspx


    How to service your wheelset:

    http://roguemechanic.typepad.com/rog...es_a_mavi.html

  22. #22
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    Grease not mineral oil

    So did I do a bad thing putting synthetic grease inside the free hub versus mineral oil? Still operates fine, just can't hear the clacking. Also, the design of the FH is perplexing to me? That rubber gasket thing actually drags quite a bit on the FH, would think that for racers that this little bit of drag would be unacceptable?

    This is quite a wakeup call here - so what I was blaming on the brakes was actually the hub this whole time!
    [SIZE=2]Question to a custom frame builder..."So what makes your bikes climb better?"....his answer, "Uh, your legs?"[/SIZE]

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by HTail
    So did I do a bad thing putting synthetic grease inside the free hub versus mineral oil? Still operates fine, just can't hear the clacking. Also, the design of the FH is perplexing to me? That rubber gasket thing actually drags quite a bit on the FH, would think that for racers that this little bit of drag would be unacceptable?

    This is quite a wakeup call here - so what I was blaming on the brakes was actually the hub this whole time!
    Grease is a HUGE no-no!! :-) Grease will actually cause the pawls to stick down and you can strip out the freehub. Grease will also cause the hub seal to drag and wear out. Mavic explicitly states to not use grease in the freehub. Use their branded mineral oil, or better yet use Pedro's Road Rage oil (much cheaper and same thing). Clean out the freehub body/seal/pawls with solvent and blow dry with air compressor. Then add about 10-15 drops of mineral oil in there and you will be good to go. You should hear the pawls engage with the clicking, ratchet sound. Your hub should not be silent! :-) Clean out the hub and add fresh oil every 3 months or so and your wheelset will last much much longer.

    Hope this helps!

  24. #24
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    Really, woops? I used Rock n Roll Super Slick grease on the seal, and red synthetic (thicker) grease on the ratchet paws. I made sure to not over grease the mechanisms keeping in mind the function, seems to work fine- no skipping/engagement issues, figured the grease would thin out over time on it's own. Sort of like the quiet sound versus 'clacking' of the FW :-)

    BTW- were are you getting all this Mavic hub maintenance info? The manuals I have only show how to install ust tires, nothing about the FH.
    [SIZE=2]Question to a custom frame builder..."So what makes your bikes climb better?"....his answer, "Uh, your legs?"[/SIZE]

  25. #25
    Praise Bob
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    I did the same thing

    I had the exact same issue as you when my wheelset was giving me issues. I used synthetic grease and didnt over grease anything, butI didnt realize the grease gets tacky and causes the pawls to stick. One of the pawls stayed down and I ended up rounding it off.

    That led me to do a search on MTBR in the wheelset forum and found a bunch of threads on the subject. If you google Mavic Crossmax Hub rebuild there are even youtube videos on how to do it. I will try and find the link to the mavic maintenance guide. You cant get to it directly from their site, but if you google it you will find it.

    The Crossmax wheelset is incredible for strength to weight, but the rear hub design leaves a lot to be desired. BTW the stainless steel pawl kit is $18 at speedgoat.com and they had the freehub body on sale for $45 last time I got one. The pawl kit comes with new springs and everything.

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