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  1. #1
    I-S
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    Replacing Louise - Tech V2/X2?

    I've grown weary of my louise FRs for a multitude of reasons.

    So, I'm in the market for something new. First off, they should be user maintainable. That the louise seals could not be replaced is a part of my ditching them, so I'm looking for something that can be totally rebuilt by the user.

    Next up I'm looking for a lot of power. Don't need huge rotor heat capacity, but I want a lot of bite and stopping power in the front brake. Rear brake is not much of a concern as I only tend to use it on very steep stuff.. Weight isn't a huge concern either - I don't want anything overly heavy, but I'm not a weight weenie and not going to keel over if it's more than 300g.

    My current thinking is the new line of Hope Tech brakes. I was looking at the X2, but have concerns over the german magazine test where they scored very poorly on braking power. Thus, that has lead me to the following setup - Tech V2 front with 183 floating rotor, Tech X2 rear with 140 floating rotor.

    So far as I can tell, this will be similar weight to, if not slightly lighter than my current louise FR, with significantly better front brake power and enough rear power.

    Any comments on this setup?

    Also, anyone who has the Techs, how long are the levers? I am often frustrated by brakes with levers too short for me to be able to reach (I have small hands) without resting my hand on the shifter (XO twist). The original moto lever sounded great in terms of its length, but the tech looks like it could be good also.

    As for other brakes - I'm not interested in any more maguras (unfortunately, but I don't like the current offerings and the louises haven't been the greatest experience for me, which is a shame because I love the forks and my old racelines were brilliant). From the issues I've seen on friend's bikes, I'm not keen on formula, avid or hayes. Only other one that remotely interests me is XT, but I'm generally not a fan of anything shimano (except cassettes).

  2. #2
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    Did you consider the M4?
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  3. #3
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    If weight is not your concern I can recommend the Avid BB7 towards superior braking power for the front. My setup (Speed Dial levers, Alligator serrated rotors, EBC gold pads, Full Metal Jacket) has more power in the front than any hydro that I have compared with same rotor size (Juicy, Oro, Louise, LX, Julie...). But you have to adjust the BB7 for maximum performance (Speed Dial full counterclockwise and pads only one click away from rubbing).

  4. #4
    I-S
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    I did, but I can't really see the appeal. The M4 caliper is heavier than the V2 and it's the same price with the same options (floating rotor, braided hose), and my understanding is that the V2 is the more powerful brake. Also, after suffering piston/seal issues in the past, I'm more inclined to go with the simpler brake. Am I missing something about the M4?

  5. #5
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    "I can recommend the Avid BB7..."

    Of course you can.
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  6. #6
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    "Am I missing something about the M4?"

    Yes, maybe. In a typical set-up, and assuming that the X2 is comparable to the Mono Mini, there's as much difference between the X2 and the M4 as there is between the M4 and the V2. The M4 has loads of power and the four-piston set-up lends itself to unrivaled modulation - it really is one of the best all-round brakes I've ever used. It has the low-speed sensitivity to make it comfortable to use picking through a rooty/rocky trail, and yet also has enough power at the end of the lever to inspire confidence on fast descents. The V2 is an excellent brake for hard deceleration, but is, or can be, difficult to work with at lower speeds. Put this together with an X2 at the rear and you may find yourself with a rather unbalanced braking system. The risk with the V2 is simply that it's too much brake.

    I find myself thinking that if your riding style and weight favour a V2 at the front, then perhaps an M4 would be more appropriate at the rear. Likewise, if the X2 is working as a rear brake, then an M4 could be just the ticket to give you more power in the front.

    You could give Jerk_Chicken a shout as he runs a V2/M4 mix. I know that, as mine does, his GF runs an M4/Mini set-up, so he might just be able to help paint the whole picture for you.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac Sibson
    I did, but I can't really see the appeal. The M4 caliper is heavier than the V2 and it's the same price with the same options (floating rotor, braided hose), and my understanding is that the V2 is the more powerful brake.
    M4 should be lighter than V2, at least all the specs I've seen quote the M4 as being significantly lighter than the V2 (although I've not handled a V2 personally). I'm also an FR to Hope convert, 2007 M4 front and rear. From a braking characteristic standpoint I find the M4s pretty similar to the FRs, but with more power reserve (you have to pull a bit on the lever though). The brake levers are no comparison, Hope all the way and much better pressure point. I'm currently running 183 front and rear, but will go to 203 front in the summer when I go into the Alps (for heat capacity; that's why I run 183 rear already). These are however not the 'throw me over the bars with minimal finger fatigue' kind of brakes (which I don't want by the way). From what I've heard the Hope pads are not the best on providing maximum brake power (there are a lot of 3rd party choices out there...) and the new Tech M4 should deliver a bit more power than the 2007 version since they upped the small piston size.

  8. #8
    I-S
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascades
    M4 should be lighter than V2, at least all the specs I've seen quote the M4 as being significantly lighter than the V2
    See, that's the problem with specs.

    If you read the spec, it says "weight from", and lists the M4 at 448g and the V2 at 546g.

    However, the V2 includes the braided hose as standard and has a minimum rotor size of 183, over the standard hose and 160mm of the M4. Thus the "from" is the minimum config in each brake. By the time you put the M4 up to 183mm disc and braided hose, the caliper is the only difference. Then it's more metal, twice as many pistons and borecaps, etc. Yes, the V2 pistons are bigger, but as there's fewer of them and the structure is simpler (ie around just the pair of pistons), there's surely less metal overall. Just comparing the calipers is where all the weight difference lies between the two brakes (since I'm looking at the same hose and disc in both cases). Also, the M4 is the same price as the V2 to within a few pence (since the base price of the V2 includes braided hose and floating rotor, whereas they are cost options on the M4) - both come out around 161 at noah's ark. Given the minimal differences in weight and price, the more powerful brake is attractive to me.

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    For reference (take into account these are the 2007 version): my M4 comes in at 485 front and 519 rear. This is with 183 floating rotor, braided hoses (full length), adapter and all bolts.

  10. #10
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    Concerning the weight: 2006 Hope Mono M4 front (180mm) and rear (160mm), incl. all bolts, slightly upgraded ...
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    "Concerning the weight: 2006 Hope Mono M4..."

    The '09 (Tech) stuff doesn't have a great deal in common beyond the rotor and hose - the caliper and lever assembly are entirely different.
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  12. #12
    I-S
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    What is needed to clear up the issue is the answer to this question then...

    "What are the weights of the 09 M4 and 09 V2 calipers with pads installed?". The hose, lever and rotor are the same between the two brakesets and so can be ignored.

    Even so, like I said the odd gram here or there isn't that big a deal, and I would be surprised if the weight difference between calipers was more than 20g at most.

    So, with the same rotor, is the V2 more powerful than the M4?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac Sibson
    See, that's the problem with specs.

    If you read the spec, it says "weight from", and lists the M4 at 448g and the V2 at 546g.

    However, the V2 includes the braided hose as standard and has a minimum rotor size of 183, over the standard hose and 160mm of the M4. Thus the "from" is the minimum config in each brake. By the time you put the M4 up to 183mm disc and braided hose, the caliper is the only difference. Then it's more metal, twice as many pistons and borecaps, etc. Yes, the V2 pistons are bigger, but as there's fewer of them and the structure is simpler (ie around just the pair of pistons), there's surely less metal overall. Just comparing the calipers is where all the weight difference lies between the two brakes (since I'm looking at the same hose and disc in both cases). Also, the M4 is the same price as the V2 to within a few pence (since the base price of the V2 includes braided hose and floating rotor, whereas they are cost options on the M4) - both come out around 161 at noah's ark. Given the minimal differences in weight and price, the more powerful brake is attractive to me.
    I have to ask, have you:

    1. Ever seen either of these brake sets in person, let alone felt the weight?
    2. Even though I've seen a "183 V2 rotor", I have not seen the V2 sold yet as a 183 configuration. As far as the M4 goes, I have not seen a factory 160 listing since 2006.
    3. Have you ever seen either of these brake sets in person, let alone felt the weight?
    4. Have you factored in the now-discontinued Moto lever into the set weight as well?

  14. #14
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    "With the same rotor, is the V2 more powerful than the M4?"

    The V2 doesn't use the same type of rotor or pads as the M4. I've already tried to explain the difference between the two brakes, but it seems as though you just want the V2 because it's the most powerful, regardless of anything else.

    Is this brake set-up for your Marin? How much do you weigh?
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  15. #15
    I-S
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    I have to ask, have you:

    1. Ever seen either of these brake sets in person, let alone felt the weight?
    No. Distinct lack of decent LBS unfortunately.

    2. Even though I've seen a "183 V2 rotor", I have not seen the V2 sold yet as a 183 configuration.
    http://www.noahsark.co.uk/hope-tech-v2-p-2658.html

    As far as the M4 goes, I have not seen a factory 160 listing since 2006.
    http://www.noahsark.co.uk/hope-tech-m4-p-2657.html

    3. Have you ever seen either of these brake sets in person, let alone felt the weight?
    Still no...

    4. Have you factored in the now-discontinued Moto lever into the set weight as well?
    No. I'm looking at the Tech V2.

    Quote Originally Posted by steveuk
    The V2 doesn't use the same type of rotor
    Is there more than one 183mm floating rotor that hope produce then? If so then I may be confused...

    I want the V2 because it appears to offer more power from a simpler brake system for the same price and entirely similar weight. Having had piston problems in the past I'd rather 2 than 4 for reliability.

    Brake is for B1 Nirvana 1.0, weight 70kg living in peak district.

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    Yes, Hope produces several rotors of the same dimensions. Traditionally, the Mini and M4 used one type, the M6 another with a wider track, and the V2 is wider still.

    And if you've had piston problems in the past, why not go for no pistons at all and use Vee Brakes?

    And I still stand by my words of not having seen the configurations you mentioned. Only recently have I seen listings of a 183 V2 rotor come up, as you have confirmed with the listing for the tech V2. In fact, Aquaholic uses a V2 in the back with a conventional sawblade 183 rotor because a v2 183 was not available. The brake track is narrower than the pads, however, but he gets some contact at the arms. As far as the M4 is concerned, again, I have not seen it sold in the US after about 2006 with smaller than a 183. There were NOS still listed, and I'm sure Hope would offer custom kits through certain dealers that dropshipped, since the rotors were still made for the Mini.

    Here's the quote from Noah's on the V2:

    Also for 09’ there is a 183mm front or rear option (floating only) -with the huge power the V2 caliper can offer, a smaller rotor option has now been made available for use where power is required, but heat build up is less of an issue.

  17. #17
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    "Is there more than one 183mm floating rotor that hope produce then? "

    Yes, the X2 and M4 use the same rotor style and pad width (it's longer on the M4) and the V2 uses a very broad rotor track. Try a search on Google images, or I'll post you a couple of shots when I get home later. In my opinion, the V2 will be way, way too much brake for that bike, especially considering your size and weight.

    The M4 is a very reliable brake, always has been, and is also very simple and inexpensive to overhaul if required.
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  18. #18
    I-S
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Yes, Hope produces several rotors of the same dimensions. Traditionally, the Mini and M4 used one type, the M6 another with a wider track, and the V2 is wider still.
    Ahhh, ok. That was not clear from the pages I've been looking at. That being the case with higher weight on the rotor (ie rotational weight), that starts to work against the V2.

    And if you've had piston problems in the past, why not go for no pistons at all and use Vee Brakes?
    British mud. That, and I never liked the lever feel of Vs. When Vs first started becoming widespread I tried them a few times, but found the lever feel way too spongy - I settled on magura HS22s for a long time, but now that I live in the peak district where the mud can destroy anything, discs are a must have.

    And I still stand by my words of not having seen the configurations you mentioned.
    Well, I'm only going by what is offered by noah's ark on that. CRC also have the same text on their site about 160mm with M4, but they don't offer the option for sale. Maybe it's come in with the new M4?

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    Steve, any chance you can be induced to use a Louise FR?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveUK
    "Is there more than one 183mm floating rotor that hope produce then? "

    Yes, the X2 and M4 use the same rotor style and pad width (it's longer on the M4) and the V2 uses a very broad rotor track. Try a search on Google images, or I'll post you a couple of shots when I get home later. In my opinion, the V2 will be way, way too much brake for that bike, especially considering your size and weight.

    The M4 is a very reliable brake, always has been, and is also very simple and inexpensive to overhaul if required.
    Ahh, yes, I've seen that excellent guide of yours before - that's one of the things that is pushing me toward Hope (because Magura calipers aren't user serviceable, and any question to them on the subject gets the response "send it to your service centre"), and your guide really helped.

    Given that there is a different rotor (which, as I said to JC, wasn't clear from all the pages I saw - the descriptions of "183 floating rotor" suggested it was the same part), that is indeed a positive for the M4 as lower rotating weight. If it is more powerful than the FRs then it could well be enough. Then it's the matter of is there a problem with having too much brake (ie the V2), given that the price is the same as the M4?

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    "Steve, any chance you can be induced to use a Louise FR?"

    What am I missing?
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  22. #22
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    Isaac, look at the brake in this link and then at the brake in this link. Not considering that the M4 is shown with non-floating rotor - it's the width of the actual braking/pad track that you're looking at - what do those rotors say to you?
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  23. #23
    I-S
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    Yes, that's the vented rotor. I'm not looking at the vented rotor (which is a significant cost option and not one I'm ever going to require), but rather the non-vented 183 floating option, as on the link to noah's ark I gave before.

    Per this image from wiggle: http://www.wiggle.co.uk/images/hope-techv2flt-zoom.jpg

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    I'm not convinced that Wiggle have it right. The brake track on that saw-tooth rotor is comparable to the M4, or perhaps the slightly wider M6, but still narrower than the V2. I'd happily be proven to be incorrect, but I don't think the rotor in the second (Wiggle) picture is what you actually get; you'd get a smaller (as in overall diameter, not brake track), non-vented version of the rotor in the first picture. I have both the vented (which is still floating) and non-vented floating version of the 203mm V2 rotors and the side-on perspective is for all intents and purposes identical....

    v2rotors1.jpg

    v2rotors.jpg


    The track is determined by the size of the pad, nothing else. I would find it highly unusual if Hope supplied a rotor which had a track too narrow for that the pads, resulting in them contacting the rotor arms. The track of the rotor in Wiggle's second picture doesn't even look wide enough for the rivets to clear the pads.
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  25. #25
    I-S
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    I've emailed Hope.

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