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  1. #1
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    A rare posting from Magura.....

    in response to the situation with Gnarlygig. MTBR is a great place to get direct feedback from fellow cyclists who have first hand experience with the products people need help or information with.
    This posting is about listening to the manufacturer or experts(whoever they may be). In this case we are the experts and we have the experience. We do not want to sound rude, but this is true. We live Magura 50 hours a week and we know everything about the products.
    In Gnarlygig's case he admits to this being his first set of disc brakes and the first time he has bled or set up a disc brake. You decide who is the expert. He would not listen to us at all when we tried to help him and explain the problem and what were causing them.
    We pride ourselves in great customer service here. If you ask 100 people that have dealt with Magura customer service you'll probably get 99 that say it was great and 1 that complains. We even proved this with Gnarlygig by sending him a new Marta rear caliper and bleedkit as a replacement at no charge when he was complaining about his problem in the beginning. This was not necessary, but was done to make him happy.
    We received the Marta rear caliper that he was having the problem with. He said it was dragging and one piston was not retracting. I put the Marta rear caliper on my Heckler yesterday which hase the disc mounting tabs properly faced. I set-up the caliper so that the rotor was running directly down the middle of the slot in the caliper which took 3 0.2mm shims. Then pulled the lever a couple times to set the pads on the rotor. I had to do a small micro-adjustment of the pistons to get the spacing of the pads/pistons set evenly on both sides of the rotor which took about 2 minutes to get perfect. Remember our caliper are designed to retract 0.5 mm on each side which is a very small amount, but plenty of room to get them set up with no rub. My boss Jeff and I then went on a 30 mile XC ride yesterday evening on very fast, dry, dusty single track with lots of rocky switchbacks so I was using the rear brake alot to check my speed and steer and the caliper worked flawlessly the entire ride. I checked the caliper thouroughly and the spacing was still perfect. Spun the wheel and it would spin forever. So this proves that the problem Gnarlygig was having was due to set up/alignment as we tried to tell him.
    In the end we still want to help Gnarlygig with his problem, but he will have to listen to us and our suggestions.


    Jimi
    Magura USA
    (618) 395-2200 ext. 25
    jimi@magurausa.com

  2. #2
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    I don't think any of us would question magura's service, I had some rotor problems with one set of 04' louise FR's and Jimi took care of it no problem, I was sent pads, and when that didn't fix it to my satisfaction, he had no problems sending me new rotors (even let me switch a rotor size), which did fix the problem (thanks Jimi!). So it's obvious they will go the extra mile for their customer, they have for years and I have no doubts they will continue to. They are great to deal with, maybe too nice if that's possible.

    However I do feel some of Gnarlygig's pain, I have 2 pair of 04' louise FR's one set mounted on a titus racer-x and one set on a ventana el chamuco. Both frames had their disc tabs faced, and the rotor is true with the pads. However I experience a lot of pad rub that requires this micro-adjustment. Which does fix the problem, but it's a pain to have to do it every ride and at the end of the ride the rubbing is back. I've done the take out one pad and cycle the piston trick, and I've checked my rotor trueness, and there isn't any air in the system. It just seems for whatever reason they don't want to hold the micro-adjustments through a ride. It's not just one wheel or one side always doing it, so I don't think it's a bad piston or caliper.

    It's not enough that it effects my riding, or that I'm upset about it, but it can be annoying. I wonder if that 0.5mm of clearance is just not enough to keep consistant rub free operation. I don't know how that number compares to other companies disc clearances. However I can say that while my maguras perform great, and were easier to set up and bleed than a couple other discs I've set up, they require a lot of micro-adjusting.

    However, I can think of no other company that for me in the past has gone so far above and beyond the call to help me out with stuff, be it my rim brakes, or my discs, and done so while being polite, and with a smile.

  3. #3
    Bodhisattva
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    Todd,

    Do you remove the front wheel after every ride?

    If so then I'm betting that your alignment issues have more to do with the fork/hub interface than the brakes. I used to have this problem but learned a few tricks along the way and I haven't had to microadjust my pads for quite some time:

    1- get everything setup correctly and working well. With a permanent marker but a line on the axle cone and a corresponding line on the dropout. Every time you replace the wheel be sure to have these marks aligned.

    2- use a quick nut: http://www.1upusa.com/quicknuts.html
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  4. #4
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    On the titus, that could explain the front wheel, it is taken off quite a bit, and it does have a noleen with the famous 47 coats of paint on it. Honestly if it just rubbed a little and required a microadjustment when I took a wheel off and put it back on, I could totally understand that with such a tight pad clearance.

    However, it would not explain the rear wheels or the front wheel on the ventana rubbing as that wheel never comes off. The only time the rear wheels are off is for a flat (haven't had one yet this year *knock on wood*) or a tire change (rare). It also does not explain that after microadjusting and starting a ride with rub free on both wheels at the end of 30 miles or whatever the ride is, there's usually some rub back again. I'm not hitting my rotors on anything, and usually another micro-adjustment fixes the problem until the next ride, so it's not like a rotor is warping because they still are true.

    Unless maybe when the rotors get heat in them during a ride, it's taking out any slight truing adjustments out that I may have put in along the way, just enough to cause some light rub.

    It's not a huge deal, it's kinda nit picking and it's nothing I'd ever get upset about or start yelling at people or name calling or product bashing, but its just a little annoying, I'm probably too anal.

  5. #5
    "El Whatever"
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    Jimi,

    I'm taking a serious look at Magura Julies. I like my Avid Mechanicals but I' like to go hydro without putting my whole paycheck on them.

    Would you offer the same service for Mexico??? Most companies "disapear" just crossing the border.

    That would really influence my purchase.

    Thanks
    Check my Site

  6. #6
    Bodhisattva
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    Jimi doesn't come around here too often.

    You may want to email him directly:

    jimi@magurausa.com
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  7. #7
    "El Whatever"
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    Thanks...

    Thanks Squeaky... he already took his time to e-mail me.... which makes me think he's here more often than we think...

    If this was a sample of Magura's service... I'm saving my bucks to get my claws on the Julies asap.
    Check my Site

  8. #8
    Bodhisattva
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    One clarification....

    Neither I, nor Mike T., ever said that the seals need to break in. Another Cult member may have made that statement, but it didn't come from either of us.
    Rather, I said that a bit of minor pad rub is normal when new and will disappear after a ride or two. Magura has made that same statement in the past as well. The pads have an irregular raised surface and sometimes a high spot needs to be ground down by the rotor.

    But I did advocate lubing the piston since sometimes they can get sticky which interferes with normal function. I don't consider this to be the same as "breaking in" since it can happen after months of use, usually because some schmutz gets in there & gunks things up.

    The rest of the story is a "he said, she said" tale which I wno't comment upon.
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  9. #9
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impulshun
    ...feel free to contact Silverdale Cyclery, in Silverdale, Wa if you feel I've been inaccurate with my statements, or accessment of this situation. .
    No need. I don't care that much. I offer free advice because biking is a passion and I like to help others. No more, no less.
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  10. #10
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impulshun
    [i] Posting the above thread, without him being able to publicly respond to it, is proof of that, as you mentioned.
    Hmmm.....I have a feeling Gnarly will find his way back onto MTBR, if he hasn't done so already. Gotta feed the addiction.
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  11. #11
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impulshun

    I understand that this new format needs funding, but where do we draw the line?
    Are you implying that Magura funds MTBR?
    I have no idea if that is a fact but I do not recall ever seeing a Magura ad on these pages.
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  12. #12
    Bodhisattva
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    Avoiding punishment?

    Yeah, good one. Thanks for the chuckle.
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  13. #13
    Bodhisattva
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    The other fact is that they continue to allow the surplus single piston Louise brakes to see the consumer and I feel that these brakes should be recalled. I have a set and feel they are downright dangerous.
    Better remove my 3 year old Louise before something bad happens.

    There could and should have been a productive dialog between them here.
    I disagree 100%. It ALL should have happened behind the scenes. The purpose of this forum is not to serve as an open dialogue between a manufacturer and a consumer. It is refreshing when manufacturere's occasionally pipe in, but troubleshooting is a different story. Personally, I don't think anyone handled this particular situation well, all parties included. If some out there feel that I am included in that group, then so be it.

    Instead, something went on behind the scenes, like Magura sent out an irate email to the forum owners.
    Kinda like the shooter on the grassy knoll, eh?
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  14. #14
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    As an impartial observer....

    It honestly seemed to me as though everybody was bending over backwards to help him and he went off the deep end and started in w/ personal attacks. I can understand the frustration of a new bike not working as expected, but honestly it seemed as though he blew it way out of proportion.


    FWIW, I have Shimano XT discs on two of my bikes, my wife has Magura Martas, a have two friends w/ Hayes and a friend w/ XT/XTR brakes and they _ALL_ have slight rubbing problems. By "slight" I mean that they will make a little bit of noise when being spun, but they spin freely. They all seem to be somewhat finicky, although the Hayes seem to be slightly less so that the others. This rubbing is a complete non-issue when riding however.


    Take it easy,

    Dave

  15. #15
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    I prefer to try and be polite

    on a recent visit here it felt like taking a stroll on the beach on D-Day. If all you have to go on is what is typed, it's easy to get caught up in a misunderstanding.

    Somewhere else here a visiting manufacturer remarked that it's bad if everyone likes your company. If that's true, Magura has a great future ahead, somehow people are really polarized about them and their products.

    On the tech side, it's nice to have someone from the mfgr. take the time to make a statement.

    One thing that doesn't quite make sense to me is the comment of the calipers being designed to retract 0.5mm per side. I asked on the Magura forum about the 04 Louise, and they said 0.5mm total adding up both sides, +/-0.3mm, or about 0.3mm per side nominal, 0.1mm would still be in spec. Maybe the Martas are different.

    Practically, I agree with MightySchmoe. I can't see a big difference in clearance with S himano, I don't have regular access to H ayes brakes. If you add up the flex in the system, the runout in the rotors, and everything else, they're all probably going to rub a bit sometimes.
    Last edited by dave_f; 07-01-2004 at 07:36 AM. Reason: changed S himano and H ayes. those links are a pain

  16. #16
    Do It Yourself
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    Talking about yourself in the third person isn't healthy. Still out of your neuroleptics?
    Long Live Long Rides

  17. #17
    A wheelist
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew
    Talking about yourself in the third person?

    MuwaaaHaaaaaaa! You said what some of us already know. It's like "Homey don't play dat!". I laughed at him too.

    Mike T. (mcm # 717)
    Mike The Bike's home wheelbuilding info - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilder information and motivation.

  18. #18
    Bodhisattva
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    Yup. There isn't too much doubt about that.

    Just feeding the addiction.
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  19. #19
    A wheelist
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Yup. There isn't too much doubt about that.
    Just feeding the addiction.
    A smart fella I used to know said "ya can always tell a bird by its chirp".
    Mike The Bike's home wheelbuilding info - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilder information and motivation.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impulshun
    ...Did you guys get any lipstick on Maggie's butt?
    If you knew what you were talking about you would not have said that..... it is obvious you are here only here to stir up sh!t. Personally I could care less if you like Maguras, the Cult or anything else having to do with Magura, but really you don't need to start BS like this just for the sake of starting BS.
    Pat T.

  21. #21
    Bodhisattva
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    You want to know why you, uh, I mean Gnarly got banned?

    It's not because of Mike T. or any secret dealing between Magura & MTBR.

    It's because of comments like that.

    Anger management is whatcha need.

    Chill dude. It's just a bike.
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  22. #22
    A wheelist
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat T.®
    If you knew what you were talking about you would not have said that..... it is obvious you are here only here to stir up sh!t. Personally I could care less if you like Maguras, the Cult or anything else having to do with Magura, but really you don't need to start BS like this just for the sake of starting BS.
    We're not dealing with someone who's playing with a full deck here Pat. No-one could reason with him over the last few weeks' (months?) dealings and it will be the same with his new identity. Ignore him and he'll seek what he craves elsewhere.

    It's really funny, but sad, to see him still digging the same hole for himself as last week.

    Mike T. (mcm # 717)
    Mike The Bike's home wheelbuilding info - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilder information and motivation.

  23. #23
    Complete Bastard
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    Okay so how does this 'microadjustment' work? Mine sometimes rub and could use a little adjustment, however, I don't feel that reflects poorly on the brakes, it just reflects poorly on the fit on my american classic hubs in the fox dropouts. Anyhow, how do you do the microadjust? Cause I'd like to try it.

  24. #24
    Bodhisattva
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    Here ya go'...

    First identify which pad is closer to the rotor. With clean hands, push the rotor over to that side and while keeping pressure pump the brake lever a few times. This will force fluid over to the piston that was previously more retracted. You may need someone to help with the rear although I've got the technique down at this point. Usually it takes several microadjustments in either direction to get it right. Total time under one minute.
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

    ― Albert Einstein

  25. #25
    Complete Bastard
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    Brilliant!!

    I think I'll try it with a .5mm feeler gauge though, rather than bending the rotor.

    Thanks for the tip.

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