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King ISO front disc sets caliper too close...

5K views 44 replies 20 participants last post by  Bikinfoolferlife 
#1 ·
Although the LBS faced the Fox disc tabs to ensure they are parallel, when I installed the Marta SL caliper (without shims) and King ISO front wheel, the outboard pad is touching the rotor and needs to moved right (when looking head-on at the fork/caliper) several millimeters.

I know this has been dealt with in the past concerning the various King/fork/brake combos that sets the caliper too close to the rotor (without any shims). Some have pointed the fingers at King, and at this point, I have to agree.

This is my first King front hub (all my previous disc hubs were Hope Bulbs). I've never had an issue with any of the discs (Hope C2 Pros, Hope Minis, Hope Mono Minis, Formula B4s, Formula B4 SLs, Formula B4 SL+, Shimano XTR/XT and Magura Marta SL) that I've used on numerous forks, including a Fox/Marta SL. This leads me to believe that the King is the source of the problem.

So, I can either:
1 - use the Magura tool to continue facing the Fox tabs; or
2 - use a 1mm washer between the Fox dropout (disc-side) and the King serrated washer which will push the leg outward.

Since I don't have immediate access to the Magura tool, I tried #2 and it worked. However, I'm somewhat concerned that the flat washer against the smooth Fox dropout could potentially cause the wheel to dislodge in the dropout. I guess with enough skewer tension, and the serrated washer on the non-disc side would minimize this likelihood. Also, in thinking about it, my Hope Bulbs all have flat, non-serrated surfaces and I've never had any issues.

So, what have you done to fix your problem?
 
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#27 ·
Actually, I did have a look at the ISO page referenced, and at the drawings and info posted by Magura, Hayes, etc. when I was trying to figure out which part was out of spec. I originally intended to bring up the issue with whoever was advertizing their stuff as being ISO (or IS2000 or whatever) compliant when it doesn't comply (or so I thought, cause it doesn't fit together).

I can find no reference to an ISO standard covering disc brake dimensions for bicycles. If anyone has the reference number, feel free to enlighten me.

Till then, I doubt that they will make me chairman, since I don't believe in the existence of their disc brake spec :) .

I will try mailing Chris King and see if they reply. Don't know why they should, it's not like it's an essential problem, or that they are going to sell me something. Customers first.

In the meantime, I stand by my belief that the statement "IS(O) standard" adds about as much value to a fork/brake/hub as "Meets all applicable standards for use on the planet Mars." :D
 
#28 ·
Marzocchi/King/magura same rub

I have a 2000 Z-1 CR with 00 Magura Louise. Ran in XT hubs for 3 years with 2 .5mm shims in the front. Switched to Kings, no shims and get some inside rub. Has anyone considered facing the 6 hub contact points to create space instead of shaving their fork tabs?
 
#29 ·
Mr Magoo said:
I have a 2000 Z-1 CR with 00 Magura Louise. Ran in XT hubs for 3 years with 2 .5mm shims in the front. Switched to Kings, no shims and get some inside rub. Has anyone considered facing the 6 hub contact points to create space instead of shaving their fork tabs?
Yebbut two points (on the fork) are easier than six points. What would you use? How would you ensure evenness/flatness on all six points? Seems like there is a greater chance of error when doing it on the hub.
 
#30 ·
Mr Magoo said:
I have a 2000 Z-1 CR with 00 Magura Louise. Ran in XT hubs for 3 years with 2 .5mm shims in the front. Switched to Kings, no shims and get some inside rub. Has anyone considered facing the 6 hub contact points to create space instead of shaving their fork tabs?
In this case facing the hub surface would move the rotor in the wrong direction. You would actually want to shim the rotor to move it away from the inside pad..
 
#32 ·
Mr Magoo said:
I'm sitting here at work, making a drawing and you are correct.
Now, any thoughts on shimming the 6 rotor bolts to equal (zero minus one) caliper shim?
Might I get some howling from harmonic vibration?
you can use 6 caliper shims on the rotor (one for each bolt). however shimming the caliper has the same effect. either option will fix rubbing on the inside pad. it's rubbing on the outside pad that needs metal removal.
 
#33 ·
back to facing, not shimming

I need to face (reduce) either the hub, the caliper, or the fork to create some breathing room between the left side (single piston side). I need to state at the bike before I post any more. Thanks for the help. All suggestions appreciated.
 
#34 ·
Mr Magoo said:
I need to face (reduce) either the hub, the caliper, or the fork to create some breathing room between the left side (single piston side). I need to state at the bike before I post any more. Thanks for the help. All suggestions appreciated.
I would definitely go with facing the fork with a Magura Gnan-o-mat or similar Hope tool.
 
#37 · (Edited)
I'd be worried about that washer and your fork. It all depends how tight the lower bushings run, but it could make them bind a little. Do you notice any more stiction?

The king measurement comes out at 10.18 +/- 0.25mm which compares well with the hayes drawing of 10.15 +/- 0.1mm, with the exception of their tolerances being over twice as big :confused: I though CK would have the tightest tolerances.

I've got a few hubs here I was going to measure (formula, shimano, Real), but I left my verniers at work.

I should add that any machine shop can face any frame, fork or caliper to work. Possibly cheaper and easier than finding a bike shop with the tools and knowledge.
 
#38 ·
Some additional info

Dougal said:
The king measurement comes out at 10.18 +/- 0.25mm which compares well with the hayes drawing of 10.15 +/- 0.1mm, with the exception of their tolerances being over twice as big :confused: I though CK would have the tightest tolerances.

I've got a few hubs here I was going to measure (formula, shimano, Real), but I left my verniers at work.
As suggested elsewhere in this thread, I did eMail Chris King asking about the whole ISO thing. Someone did get back to me promptly (Chris king gets bonus points from me for having a good ethic here) and to paraphrase, they said "go ask Hayes". So, I',m not surprised their dimensions match the Hayes drawing.

Magura and DT spec 10.4mm in their drawings, and my DT Swiss hub measures 10.4 +/- 0.1mm.

The only other fork/brake/hub company I found (other than CK) who mentions "ISO" anywhere is Pace. I was able to ask someone knowledgeable from Pace at the Eurobike trade show about it, and they confirmed that there is no ISO (as in International Organisation for Standards) brake standard. Their response was that there is a sort of industry standard floating around, and that Shimano is the authority people go to with questions about dimensions.

Dougal said:
I should add that any machine shop can face any frame, fork or caliper to work. Possibly cheaper and easier than finding a bike shop with the tools ...
I agree.

Dougal said:
...and knowledge.
That's the part I'd be concerned about.
 
#39 ·
Aftermarket to the rescue!

it's time for someone to step up and produce some correctly re-spaced Kinng replacement parts. There seems to be a market and Kingg is generally too overwhelmed by demand to be able to offer such a thing. These would be easy to produce.

I run an '05 Vanilla with Kiing and Aphid mechanicals (180mm rotor on Haze adapter ) and the rotor comes extremely close to the adapter, and it has rubbed occasionally due to flex.

PS: IS disc mounting is a crappy system. Posts mounts make much more sense. It's dopey to stick with it just beause it's what we already have. But that's the bike industry...
 
#40 ·
trouble here too.

I have a King/Manitou Black/Hayes HFX Mag combo here. In my case, I had to move the rotor closer to the caliper because the slots on the caliper would not move enough to eliminate rubbing. I ended up putting washers between the rotor and the hub... no problems to speak of so far. Also, I had Avid mechs before... they worked fine, I'm assuming because the CPS bolts allowed more movement. But when I smashed my front wheel and swapped in an old one built on a Real disc hub, I had to readjust the caliper all over again. So my King is definitely different than at least the Real hub.
 
#41 ·
slowride said:
I have a King/Manitou Black/Hayes HFX Mag combo here. In my case, I had to move the rotor closer to the caliper because the slots on the caliper would not move enough to eliminate rubbing. I ended up putting washers between the rotor and the hub... no problems to speak of so far. Also, I had Avid mechs before... they worked fine, I'm assuming because the CPS bolts allowed more movement. But when I smashed my front wheel and swapped in an old one built on a Real disc hub, I had to readjust the caliper all over again. So my King is definitely different than at least the Real hub.
That wouldn't be an 02 black would it?

I remember some of those were sent out with the caliper holes too far outboard. The 02 black on my girlfriends bike (fork bought second hand) appears to be one of these, when I put a mechanical caliper on it yesterday, I could only just get it to stop scraping the caliper on the inside.

This was using a Real hub, I tried my specialized (formula) hub at one stage with the same results.
 
#42 ·
I measured my Kiing and my Foxx...

International Standard calls for the caliper mounts to be 4mm + - .1mm outboard of the dropout face.

My Ffox measures 3.91mm. .09mm too inboard, but still within spec. The fork is contributing somewhat to the problem.

Shermano and Haze hub specs dictate that the rotor mounting surface should be 10.5mm + -.1mm inboard of the dropout clamping surface.

My Kinng ISO front hub '04 model measures 10.06mm. This is .44 mm off of the standard, and .34mm out of spec.

This hub measurement was taken from the top surface of the steel knurled surface of the Kingg. This surface will bite into the fork dropouts, bringing the rotor position even further out of spec. I'm not able to accurately measure this, but it looks to be .1-.15mm deep. Take that for what it's worth.

I don't have any of the mentioned brakes, so I can't measure them, but it seems like the Kiing hub may be creating most of the issues.

I'm hanging onto mine, though;)
 
#43 ·
I don't really know for sure, but probably... it's a gray Elite with the letters that fell off. Also got it second hand, and at the price I paid, I'm happy to use washers to make up for it. My initial thought was, however, that the holes were off...

Dougal said:
That wouldn't be an 02 black would it?

I remember some of those were sent out with the caliper holes too far outboard. The 02 black on my girlfriends bike (fork bought second hand) appears to be one of these, when I put a mechanical caliper on it yesterday, I could only just get it to stop scraping the caliper on the inside.

This was using a Real hub, I tried my specialized (formula) hub at one stage with the same results.
 
#44 ·
Whenever you are setting up an international standard mount hydraulic brake such as Magura, Hope, Shimano, etc., you need to ensure that the caliper is centered over the rotor, and each is in parallel with each other for the best performance. Sometimes, you can get away with not having to do this work, but you will not get the full performance out of the brakes in my opinion. Granted, machining the tabs will place the caliper in a parallel plane with the rotor and will help performance, but sometimes the caliper will still not be centered over the rotor ensuring equal piston/pad movement. So, you have to do more facing of the tabs or use shims to ensure the caliper is moved in the necessary direction to center it over the rotor. In the case of the Marta/Fox/King combo, I have to nearly remove 1 to 2mm of material in most all cases to get the caliper over the rotor. I work on a lot of Magura product as well as a lot of other disc brakes and that combination is always a lot of work to ensure proper set-up. For people wanting to use mutiple wheelsets on one bike, Syntace has a new product that I just got in the store. They are disc brake rotor shims that allow you to shim the rotor by placing the shims in between the rotor and hub. If you go to Syntace.com and look for the disc shims, you can see a picture of them. It will take some time during set-up of all the wheels and brake system, but now you will be able to run multiple wheelsets on the same bike and not have to worry about re-shimming the caliper everytime you change your wheels.

Frank
 
#45 ·
Interesting thread,

in that I have an 02 Marzocchi Z1FR QR20+ with a King ISO Disc (20mm) hub with Avid mechs and I used shims on both the fork and the rotor mounts for the best solution.
Now you need to expect to shim the caliper over 5mm since you're using a 110mm axle instead of 100. That wasn't quite enough so I shimmed the rotor with some washers I had and it lined up perfectly. I never really thought it was any one component's fault, just that I had three different manufacturers and tolerances involved and once I knew that lots of disc brake setups required shimming to align the caliper properly, I didn't worry about it. Sounds like the problem is all over the place from the above.

I'm positive the King hubs were called ISO only in relation to the change in rotor mount from their Universal Disc model (with all the fun adapters for systems that mostly don't exist now) that preceded it. Otherwise I'm sure King is well aware of industry standards and does their best to be in compliance with them? I have plenty of King headsets and hubs and I've had no other problems with tolerances (other than my fat butt breaking a rear axle on the ISO rear hub, now I have their "heavy duty" version derived from bmx hubs). Maybe it's the quality of work done by King in Redding (hope rain is better than heat now that they're in Portland?). I have no way of measuring any of this stuff myself, but I'll keep my eyes open now.
 
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