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  1. #1
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    jagwire hyflow hydro issues??? new brake fluid? or lines?

    anyone else have problems with these lines? my brakes were fine, very hard, and braked well.... no squishyness.....

    found the silver braided jagwire hyflow lines and switched out the lines and used some dot3-4 from the auto store and now i cant get
    the damn things to stop anymore....

    ive since bleed the brakes about 5 times and still .... same result.... i havent found a bottle of the original avid brake fluid to test that out....

    any ideas? basically new brakes.....

  2. #2
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    you are not getting all the air out. Also I believe avids all use DOT 5.1

  3. #3
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    Could be a couple of things.

    Air in system - Did you use the Avid proceedure? Did you use new compression fittings?
    Contaminated brake pads. Brake fluid on the pads. Need to replace if this is the case.

    You can use the DOT 3-4, Its compatible with DOT 5.1, but DOT 5.1 has a higher boiling point than DOT 3-4.

  4. #4
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    thanks....

    yep... followed it exactly.... thanks, thats what i thought about the fluid... just wasnt positive.... i live in fla so i dont use the brakes as much.... not like im going down a mountain or anything. at least thats what i ve read about the boiling pt being an issue...

    any tips or tricks to getting the air out besides what avid has on youtube?

  5. #5
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    just to add...

    i want them stiff as hell... i always give brand new bikes a touch test in the shop...

    i squeeze the brakes and pluck the spokes.... and new brakes are stiff....

    how do you get them like that?

  6. #6
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    nevermind....

    im a ra-tard of the highest order.... dont ask me how.... but i fixed it..

    after i re-bled again, i took the caliper off the bike and squeezed the lever until the pads almost touched.... than i took my red spacer and pushed the pads apart just a little and now the lever is solid... no squish.... doesnt make sense to me and it probably will get squishy tomorrow when i ride but it works for now...

    thanks...

  7. #7
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    What do you think of the housings?

    Do they make a difference?

    Thanks.

    And if you want them stiff, turn the pad contact adjust all the way in (opposite of bleed instructions) and add a few drops of DOT 5.1 in the lever bleed screw. You wont have to re bleed them. I do this after the pads start to wear and the pad contact adjust no longer dials out enough for my liking.

  8. #8
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    Here are my concerns with Hyflow hoses.


    First of all they suck. I installed a set on my saint brakes and let me tell you just one thing -----> Expansion.

    As soon as you hit the brakes hard the hose will expand and make you loose tons of braking power.

    They where made to look good at the sacrifice of braking good.

    Needless to say that after a ride outside i came back home took them off and trashed them.

    Vince

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicolicious
    anyone else have problems with these lines? my brakes were fine, very hard, and braked well.... no squishyness.....

    found the silver braided jagwire hyflow lines and switched out the lines and used some dot3-4 from the auto store and now i cant get
    the damn things to stop anymore....

    ive since bleed the brakes about 5 times and still .... same result.... i havent found a bottle of the original avid brake fluid to test that out....

    any ideas? basically new brakes.....
    Its the Jagwire lines. I just switched mine to Jagwire's and hate what they've done to my brakes. Horrible spongy feel all the time no matter how many times I bleed them. They suck.
    Narrow is the path to life, few are those who find it.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilsonblur
    Its the Jagwire lines. I just switched mine to Jagwire's and hate what they've done to my brakes. Horrible spongy feel all the time no matter how many times I bleed them. They suck.
    I have a few bikes with Shimano XT brakes. One with Shimano line, one with Goodridge line, and one with Jagwire line. They all feel the same.

    Oh, and it doesn't matter how many times you bleed the brakes; it only takes one time of doing it right.
    May the air be filled with tires!

  11. #11
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    These hoses suck. It is not the bleeding it is the expansion ! Grab the hose and brake hard with your other hand....

    Dont say you dont feel it. Now put back your original hoses ..... Ohhhh it's gone...


    Hyflow suck ass

  12. #12
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    have to also disagree.

    I run Shiman XT`s, with the jagwire and they have always felt solid.No isues at all.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaster1200
    I have a few bikes with Shimano XT brakes. One with Shimano line, one with Goodridge line, and one with Jagwire line. They all feel the same.

    Oh, and it doesn't matter how many times you bleed the brakes; it only takes one time of doing it right.
    You're being a little presumptuous that I didn't do it right. I am competent enough to know its not my bleeding that's the issue. I've repeatedly bled these same brakes with the stock lines until they were perfect with no spongy feeling, power and great lever feel. The same with my Hopes, Avids, and my brothers Hayes. At one point I figured it had to be me so I took it to my LBS. The wrench there is really good. He bled them four more times and came to the same conclusion that the hose was expanding. They were driving him crazy. He said to ditch the lines or go back to stock or something better. When you grab the lever you can feel the initial pad contact, when you apply more pressure you can see the hose expand from beginning to end. Its the lines not the mechanic/s.

    Your post may apply to some people who don't have experience bleeding brakes correctly, but that's not the case here. Some people can't tell the difference or don't care between a brake that set up properly and one that's not. Maybe you don't care or can't tell I am amazed how many of my buddy's bikes I get on and hate the way their brakes feel. There are also a couple of my buddy's whose bikes have brakes I love and its because they know the difference.
    Narrow is the path to life, few are those who find it.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by kfother
    have to also disagree.

    I run Shiman XT`s, with the jagwire and they have always felt solid.No isues at all.
    I noticed both of you who like the Jagwires are running XT brakes which use mineral oil. It could be an issue with certain brake/fluid compatibility. DOT 4 and other DOT fluids are better and capable of pushing a higher pressure through the lines than mineral oil. There's a night a day difference. Both brakes lack any real stopping power. I have Formula K24's which got the silly MTBR star thingy so its not the brakes. I bled the previous set up and the current one with a mechanic in between and the only difference is the lines. I can see the line expand at all the zipties. Its the lines because the stock lines never had this issue.

    Glad you guys like them, I'll never own another set. We have 3 mile downhills and really steep techy stuff in CO. I wouldn't trust the performance of these on anything I ride. I just got a set of Hope stainless steel braided to replace these. I ran those for 9 years on my Hope's without issue and I bled them every year.
    Narrow is the path to life, few are those who find it.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilsonblur
    DOT 4 and other DOT fluids are better and capable of pushing a higher pressure through the lines than mineral oil.
    Sorry, what? How can one fluid be capable of pushing higher pressure than another?

  16. #16
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    I had Jagwire hoses on my Saints with mineral oil. They where expanding like crazy. It took 5 min to take them off and put back my original Shimano hoses.

    The Difference is so obvious.

    NOW is there a revised Jagwire hose out there that dosent suck ? Maybe.

    But the white ones i purchased last year on jensonusa.com are in the garbage and they never went close to the trails. They looked good that's it.
    Last edited by xetal; 02-16-2011 at 02:41 PM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by slider32
    Sorry, what? How can one fluid be capable of pushing higher pressure than another?
    Mineral oil is not as capable of a hydraulic fluid as DOT otherwise as posted by another user on MTBR it would be in car brakes. I don't know this for sure but I don't think you can generate as many PSI's with mineral oil. It does have other benefits though. This is about those lousy Jagwire lines so lets not get side tracked.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Freak
    If Mineral oil were nearly as good It too would have a DOT rating and be put into Cars, Trucks, Motorcycles etc. The seals in brake calipers and Master Cyl's are products of very evolved technology. They have those rubber compounds down and the boiling point is also a significant factor in the equation.

    If you have ever taken any courses in Automotive technology, or MMI Motor cycle mechanics Institute you would not even consider Mineral Oil as an option but a Marketing Scam aimed at Liberal Environmental People which make up a large percentage of our cycling Community.

    My Credentials are Mercedes Benz Master Diagnostic Technician, Nissan Certified Technician, ASE Brakes and suspension certified, and a Certificate of Completion from Pasadena City College Automotive Program 1994.
    SF
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  18. #18
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    Installed on my wife's XTR, they expand, but she does not feel the difference....
    The world needs a huge socio-economic change...be it. We all need to ride more....

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilsonblur
    Mineral oil is not as capable of a hydraulic fluid as DOT otherwise as posted by another user on MTBR it would be in car brakes. I don't know this for sure but I don't think you can generate as many PSI's with mineral oil. It does have other benefits though.


    The difference between DOT brake fluid and mineral oil has nothing to do with PSI. I can generate the same amount of psi with water as DOT brake fluid in a sealed system. Fluid does not compress, regardless of the fluid. You could use iced tea in your brake system, regarding pressure.

    The difference is in freeze point/boiling point and a few other specifications.. DOT brake fluid is required to attain a really low freezing point, so that brake systems can work properly in sub zero temperatures. Mineral oil does not have a freeze point as low as DOT brake fluid.

    Another reason for the use of DOT brake fluid and mineral oil is the boiling point. A brake system can generate quite a bit of heat. Water boils at 212 degrees F. DOT 4 brake fluid has a boiling point of 445 degrees F dry, 311 degrees F wet (water in system). They also must not corrode the materials being used to make the brake systems - aluminum, magnesium, rubber, plastic, ect.

    Also they must maintain the same amount of compressability throughout a wide range of temps.


    Mineral oil works great in a bicycle brake system, but does not pass Department of Transportation (DOT)guidelines for automotive safety. Hence the requirement of DOT brake fluid


    So please do a little bit of research, before repeating "what someone else on MTBR" said.

    To add to certifications like Steel Freak.

    Ex-ASE certified in six out of 8 categories, Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep level 2 certified tech - (level one requires Diesel)

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by frdfandc
    The difference between DOT brake fluid and mineral oil has nothing to do with PSI. I can generate the same amount of psi with water as DOT brake fluid in a sealed system. Fluid does not compress, regardless of the fluid. You could use iced tea in your brake system, regarding pressure.

    The difference is in freeze point/boiling point and a few other specifications.. DOT brake fluid is required to attain a really low freezing point, so that brake systems can work properly in sub zero temperatures. Mineral oil does not have a freeze point as low as DOT brake fluid.

    Another reason for the use of DOT brake fluid and mineral oil is the boiling point. A brake system can generate quite a bit of heat. Water boils at 212 degrees F. DOT 4 brake fluid has a boiling point of 445 degrees F dry, 311 degrees F wet (water in system). They also must not corrode the materials being used to make the brake systems - aluminum, magnesium, rubber, plastic, ect.

    Also they must maintain the same amount of compressability throughout a wide range of temps.


    Mineral oil works great in a bicycle brake system, but does not pass Department of Transportation (DOT)guidelines for automotive safety. Hence the requirement of DOT brake fluid


    So please do a little bit of research, before repeating "what someone else on MTBR" said.

    To add to certifications like Steel Freak.

    Ex-ASE certified in six out of 8 categories, Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep level 2 certified tech - (level one requires Diesel)
    I did say I could be wrong. I have no issues learning when wrong, thanks for the correction. But the point of the thread is that these lines expand reducing braking power. The stock lines are far better. Do you have anything in your 6 categories of certification to add about brake lines in the automotive world. It might be very helpful to the discussion? I know that early on in some of my older (15yrs old) cars the flexible lines between the caliper and metal lines from the master cylinder would age and deteriorate causing a spongy pedal. So I replaced them with braided steel lines and the pedal feel was much better. My understanding is that if braking force is lost in the lines there's less at the pistons. I believe that is the issue my Jagwire lines have.

    I bought a Nomad and sold my BLT2. My old lines were too short for the Nomad so I thought I'd give the Jagwires a try since they were much cheaper than the stock lines or Goodrich's. I ran Hopes for nine years with their steel braided lines and they were great none of this spongy expanding stuff. I picked up a set to replace the jagwires. At this point I could have had the Goodrich's or the Carbon Fiber weave Formula's.

    Mostly I am trying to account for how some guys like them and others simply can't stand them. I have the sterling silver version. The more lever I pull the more the line expands. Xetal is right, you can feel the lines expanding with your fingers. It be interesting to see if there was a way to measure the expansion. Would a digital micrometer work? To me that signals a great loss in power through the lines. All I know is the performance is sub par compared to the stock lines.
    Last edited by wilsonblur; 02-17-2011 at 09:18 AM.
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  21. #21
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    I know that Jagwire offers their brake hoses in pretty colors, but other than that, I have no experience with Jagwire aftermarket brake hoses. If they are expanding, then yes, this will cause a deterioration in braking performance. If the stock hoses made braking feel better, then why wouldn't you put them back on?

    You could probably do the micrometer method. Make sure its digital - easier to read. Would take 2 people to do properly. And I'd make several measurements in different locations to get an average.

    In the auto world, cars use rubber lines at the wheels for flexibility - wheels turning, suspension actuating. Over time, they do deteriorate and braking performance can suffer.

    I prefer stainless steel braided lines (as you have mentioned) as I have had a couple of cars that I drag raced in the past.

    I guess feel all comes down to the end user on how they like the feel. There is a boat floating for everyone.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by frdfandc
    I know that Jagwire offers their brake hoses in pretty colors, but other than that, I have no experience with Jagwire aftermarket brake hoses. If they are expanding, then yes, this will cause a deterioration in braking performance. If the stock hoses made braking feel better, then why wouldn't you put them back on?

    You could probably do the micrometer method. Make sure its digital - easier to read. Would take 2 people to do properly. And I'd make several measurements in different locations to get an average.

    In the auto world, cars use rubber lines at the wheels for flexibility - wheels turning, suspension actuating. Over time, they do deteriorate and braking performance can suffer.

    I prefer stainless steel braided lines (as you have mentioned) as I have had a couple of cars that I drag raced in the past.

    I guess feel all comes down to the end user on how they like the feel. There is a boat floating for everyone.
    The stock lines were on a small BLT with a 140mm fork, My new Nomad is a Medium with a 160mm fork. The stock lines are inches too short in the rear. So I can't go back only forward with new Hope steel braided lines front and rear.
    Narrow is the path to life, few are those who find it.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilsonblur
    The stock lines were on a small BLT with a 140mm fork, My new Nomad is a Medium with a 160mm fork. The stock lines are inches too short in the rear. So I can't go back only forward with new Hope steel braided lines front and rear.
    So here's a little update. I wrote to Jagwire and asked what they could do about their poorly performing lines. Here's what they said.

    Hi Mark,

    Sorry for the hassle. *I will send you new and improved hose straight away. *For some reason certain systems are having this issue. *The functionality of the brake while riding is not a problem but there is a spongy feel. *What color hose do you have and what is your address. *I will get you the new hose right away.

    Thank you,
    MacLayne
    Jagwire USA

    So as some of us had noted there is an issue with some Jagwire lines according to their own CS. It is a good thing that they would send me a new set. If you want them I'll make you a deal. Also I bought Hope stainless steel braided lines by Goodridge and there's no comparison. No spongy feel and the power has returned as well as great lever feel.
    Narrow is the path to life, few are those who find it.

  24. #24
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    I had the squishy line issue with a set of Hyflows on my Oros. Got in touch with Jagwire and they said the same thing and sent me a new set of lines. Work perfectly now, nice firm lever feel just the way they should be. The line also feels noticeably stiffer in your hand, so there was definitely something screwy with the old stuff.

    happy trails...

    squish
    Get out and ride!

  25. #25
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    e x p a n s i o n

    I'm so glad I found this thread.
    Been pulling my hair out as to why my rear Elixir feels so squishy.
    Probably bled the rear brake 6 times!

    I just talked to Tanner @ Jagwire and he confirmed that the Elixir causes the HyFlow hoses to expand under pressure. The Elixirs push a lot of fluid.
    They are sending me an improved (reinforced?) kit.
    I'll report back.

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