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  1. #1
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    Hope M4's vs Magura MT4/Louise BAT vs Formula RX

    Hello everyone, its time to change brakes. I currently own a set of Shimano M585 LX, and find they fade alot when braking at long steep descents.

    I mostly do XC/AM terrain riding on a XC oriented bike.
    According to my budget, ive found those 2 options:

    1)Hope M4
    2)Magura MT4 or Louise BAT
    3)Formula RX

    Im mostly concerned about braking power and fade resistance, not so much for weight.
    The fact that Magura uses mineral oil is a plus for me.

    So, which one would you suggest i get?


    Thanks

  2. #2
    derp
    Reputation: danielsilva's Avatar
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    I don't like Formula's lack of modulation, way too grabby for my tastes ... Are the Hope's the tech or race M4's ? The Hope's have fantastic modulation but i found the Race M4's a bit underpowered for agressive riding so i would go for the Mt4's or the Tech M4's. Beware as some earlier MT's did come with very poor pads and they'll be really weak and noisy, they did replace them for free though.

  3. #3
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    Mineral oil is convenient, but it is a disadvantage on long descents. (Yeah I know-- what's "long"?)

    I'm building a bike with MT4s and I can tell you my impressions in a few weeks, but we don't have any long descents. My feedback will just be around power and modulation.


    BTW - have you already tried bigger rotors and better pads on your Shimanos?

  4. #4
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    I just bought a set of MT4's from probikesupply, cant wait for them to get here!

  5. #5
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    I've got a set of Tech X2's on my hardtail (Niner MCR) and Tech M4's on my fully (Lenz Lunchbox). Granted, I have 3 rides in on the M4s so I don't have much to report there but the X2s I've been on for nearly 2 years and, well I'll put it this way...I don't see myself buying another brand of brake. Ever.

    Modulation is excellent. Grab just a bit of brake to scrub speed to set up for a corner, perfect. Long descents, no fade...power all the way.

    Installation is easy - just make sure you centralize the pistons and pads properly.

    Bleeding is a piece of cake. Swapping pads is simple.

    Basically maintenance free after initial install.

    Oh, and they look incredible.

    Hope brakes, FTW.

  6. #6
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    shimano xt +ice tech rotor?

  7. #7
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    Hope is a flat out better brake than your other choices. Formulas are just garbage.

  8. #8
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    Magura Louise are really nice brakes. I had problems with my M4's, the pistons would not come out evenly (probably pretty rare, but having 4 pistons increases the probability). Also, I don't think the Hope installation is easy compared to anything else I used (most are installed by pressing lever then tightening caliper, hope by aligning and tightening caliper, then centralizing pads).

    But I do have hopes now too, I just moved to V2's which are a great brake.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    Mineral oil is convenient, but it is a disadvantage on long descents. (Yeah I know-- what's "long"?)
    I think the trails in Peru count as "long." I swapped my Gustavs out for Ones a few months back, but that little voice in my head told me to pack the Gustavs along as spares for my trip. It's a good thing I did, because my mineral oil based Gustavs never, ever faded on the trip. The DOT based Ones gave out halfway down Olleros.

  10. #10
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    So, your feedback is that you were unable to boil mineral fluid, but you experienced either pad fade or had water in your DOT-based brake system. Right?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsilva View Post
    I don't like Formula's lack of modulation, way too grabby for my tastes ... Are the Hope's the tech or race M4's ? The Hope's have fantastic modulation but i found the Race M4's a bit underpowered for agressive riding so i would go for the Mt4's or the Tech M4's.
    That's weird. The Race levers are supposed to have a greater mechanical / hydraulic advantage than the Tech levers... See bikeradar benchmark for empirical data.

  12. #12
    derp
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    Quote Originally Posted by anlin View Post
    That's weird. The Race levers are supposed to have a greater mechanical / hydraulic advantage than the Tech levers... See bikeradar benchmark for empirical data.
    Aren't you think about the non EVO and EVO levers though ? They are about the same powerwise ( at the levers ) but the Tech's offer greater levels of adjustment.

  13. #13
    Perpetual Hack
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    Agree on the Magura Louise BAT.
    I have two pair and they ROCK.
    203/180 mm Magura Venti rotors on both.
    Great modulation and serious bite if required.
    Quiet - even when wet.
    Mineral Oil - so easy service.
    Performance Pads (Endurance Pads are not in the same league)

    Having said that - I am drooling over a set of Hope Tech M4 Evos.
    Got to check out a pair a little while ago and the lever action is to die for. Comfort for days and better and easier lever and bite point adjustment.

    just me opinion...

    michael
    A Dirtbag since 1969.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsilva View Post
    Aren't you think about the non EVO and EVO levers though ? They are about the same powerwise ( at the levers ) but the Tech's offer greater levels of adjustment.
    The Evo levers do offer increased mechanical advantage as a result of the pivot point of the lever being moved closer to the pushrod cam. If I recall correctly, the Race Evo lever, in addition to the pivot adjustment, also has a smaller MC piston surface area compared to the Tech lever. Given the same caliper piston surface area, the smaller piston of the Race lever will displace less fluid for a given stroke length at a higher pressure, theoretically generating more friction and therefore more torque (power). In BikeRadar's benchmarks the Evo Race/X2 produced almost 13.5% more torque than the Tech Evo/X2 setup at 50N lever force.

    With that being said, I think the OP should consider what s/he needs and choose the lever accordingly. The Race levers are light and powerful, but lack all but the most basic adjustments. The Tech levers offer adjustability, can be paired with more burly calipers, like the V2, but are a bit heavier and less powerful.
    Last edited by anlin; 07-31-2012 at 12:24 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arty50 View Post
    I think the trails in Peru count as "long." I swapped my Gustavs out for Ones a few months back, but that little voice in my head told me to pack the Gustavs along as spares for my trip. It's a good thing I did, because my mineral oil based Gustavs never, ever faded on the trip. The DOT based Ones gave out halfway down Olleros.
    Gustavs despite the weight penalty are still my all time favourite gravity brake. Simply stunning they are.

  16. #16
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    Well, i actually bought a set of Magura MT4 brakes, with 180 and 160 mm rotors. Should arrive in some days.

    Interesting points have been stated on this topic! Keep on !

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by assas1n View Post
    Well, i actually bought a set of Magura MT4 brakes, with 180 and 160 mm rotors. Should arrive in some days.

    Interesting points have been stated on this topic! Keep on !
    I'm sure you will not be disappointed. From what I've heard the MT4's should be excellent bang for your buck. Bleeding too is a joy compared to brakes using DOT.

  18. #18
    derp
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    Quote Originally Posted by anlin View Post
    The Evo levers do offer increased mechanical advantage as a result of the pivot point of the lever being moved closer to the pushrod cam. If I recall correctly, the Race Evo lever, in addition to the pivot adjustment, also has a smaller MC piston surface area compared to the Tech lever. Given the same caliper piston surface area, the smaller piston of the Race lever will displace less fluid for a given stroke length at a higher pressure, theoretically generating more friction and therefore more torque (power). In BikeRadar's benchmarks the Evo Race/X2 produced almost 13.5% more torque than the Tech Evo/X2 setup at 50N lever force.
    Ahh BikeRadar the same "article" where the resilts kept changing and some of them gave different results for the same brakes in each "test", i followed that article for some time ( since the beggining ) and the Hope brakes went from being the most weak to one of the best ( using the same brakes ) in different "tests". I always take BikeRadar's tests/reviews with quite a LOT of salt.

    The levers *might* be sligthly different but i'm almost positive that the power difference will be virtually the same and after feeling them both i noticed no difference.

    Unless you want the lightest brakes, the Tech M4's will offer the best bang for buck.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsilva View Post
    Ahh BikeRadar the same "article" where the resilts kept changing and some of them gave different results for the same brakes in each "test", i followed that article for some time ( since the beggining ) and the Hope brakes went from being the most weak to one of the best ( using the same brakes ) in different "tests". I always take BikeRadar's tests/reviews with quite a LOT of salt.

    The levers *might* be sligthly different but i'm almost positive that the power difference will be virtually the same and after feeling them both i noticed no difference.

    Unless you want the lightest brakes, the Tech M4's will offer the best bang for buck.
    I do agree with you - the BikeRadar benchmark should be taken with a larger-than-safe dose of NaCl, but as for the jump in power - note that all the listed Hope brakes are Evo models. The previous results were for older models.

    Also - I do know for a fact that the Race lever does move less fluid than the Tech one, having played around with both. With all other things being equal, basic physics dictate that the master cylinder that moves less fluid for a given amount of stroke will do so at a higher pressure, resulting in less piston movement and more pad pressure.

    Real-world power differences may not be nearly as dramatic as theory would predict, but the Race model brakes are at the very least equivalent to Tech models in terms of power.

  20. #20
    derp
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    Quote Originally Posted by anlin View Post
    Real-world power differences may not be nearly as dramatic as theory would predict, but the Race model brakes are at the very least equivalent to Tech models in terms of power.
    Like i said, if there are differences they probably are minimal at best and hardly noticeable, thus why i said to get the Tech's, same power and feel, while being cheaper and more adjustable with the penalty being weight.

  21. #21
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    anything but avid should work pretty well. The maguras are stupid ez to set up and storm rotors are inexpensive. Not entirely sure what i think of the pad composition though ,but koolstop etc make quiet, grippy pads for half price of stockers

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