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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by kim_jong_il
    Would you mind sharing with us how you manufactured the carbenix pads?
    I have machined them with diamond tools, using a standard old fashioned milling machine with a relatively high RPM spindle.

    No big deal to do really.


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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot



    Sounds great. I might take you up on that. I wonder how you shape it, without the benefit of machining tools, CNC, etc. I only have hand tools at my disposal. Also, what is the MSDS on that stuff. I'd imagine you rreeeaaally don't want to breathe that dust.
    CNC machines are a crutch for sub-standard craftsmen

    You will need to get your hands on a milling machine though, but such a toy ought to be easy to find somewhere. AFAIK there are places in most states that runs evening classes of machining, no?

    The MSDS of Carbenix is rather pleasant read, as it is 100% carbon, so no nasty stuff. The carbon dust when pure, is no particular hazard.
    Having said that, I machine it wet, but that has more to do with the mess it makes, than health hazards.

    So no reason not to give it a shot.

    Magura

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbnozpikr
    Anybody else find it funny that Mr. Magura is riding on Hope brakes?


    I was given that nick name back in the times of the HydroStop, like 20 years ago.
    I have no affiliation with the German company Magura.


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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitterDave
    Is it difficult to machine Carbenix? Is the dust abrasive?

    Are the finned Carbenix brake pads necessary? You have (I assume) a friction material that will cause your rotors to glow orange before the performance falls off. If that's the case, then the extra cooling really isn't necessary, except to prevent the brake fluid from boiling. In auto racing, that is done by having notched pistons to minimize the contact area with the pads and the use of a thin titanium plate.
    How difficult you find the machining of Carbenix, is a matter of skill level and previous experience. If you're used to toy with loads of different materials, it's no big deal. If your entire experience in machining is based on steel and the like, you may find it will take a few attempts to get it right.
    The dust is sure abrasive to your machines, so hygiene is key here.
    The rotors does not experience that abrasion, as the carbon transfers to the rotor, and you end up effectively with a carbon/carbon brake interface.

    The finns are a must, or you will sure end up with the problem we set out to solve in the first place, that being overheating the caliper.
    Ceramic pistons could take the edge of the issue, but I doubt it would solve it.
    Keep in mind that a big part of the heat transfer from a Carbenix pad is IR radiation as well.
    Also I would like to keep the rotors at a reasonable temperature, in order to keep them straight and avoid annealing them too much.

    The heat sinks are not much of an issue to add though, so no reason not to have them. The weight of the Carbenix pads I made, is also lower than a standard Hope pad, since the density of Carbenix is relatively low.


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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura
    I have machined them with diamond tools, using a standard old fashioned milling machine with a relatively high RPM spindle.

    No big deal to do really.


    Magura

    Diamond tools? Geez, I don't think I have access to that :P I think the best that I can get now is carbide.

    Any idea on other materials feasible for brake pads that isn't as expensive as carbenix??

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by kim_jong_il
    Diamond tools? Geez, I don't think I have access to that :P I think the best that I can get now is carbide.

    Any idea on other materials feasible for brake pads that isn't as expensive as carbenix??
    Carbide tools will do as well, just expect high tool wear. Not really an issue, considering how cheap carbide tools has become these days.

    The next step down is regular sintered pads as far as I know.

    Magura

  7. #57
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    Today I had a chance to go for a longer ride, in a hilly area, so I could see how the Carbenix brake pads worked under maximum load.
    They performed superb, and a bit to my surprise, considering the rotor is stainless steel, they increased the brake power with temperature. It has not been so with the brakes I made for performance cars, actually there was no difference on the cars from cold to hot.

    The heat sure leaved the brake pad through the heat sink for the most part, as the caliper got barely luke warm. Around 40C at worst.

    I guess it's time to make a more thought through design, with a better definition of the brake surface, and make the heat sink part offset from the back of the pad.

    From what I can tell so far, the pad wear is not too bad.

    To be continued......


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  8. #58
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    wow...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura
    Today I had a chance to go for a longer ride, in a hilly area, so I could see how the Carbenix brake pads worked under maximum load.
    They performed superb, and a bit to my surprise, considering the rotor is stainless steel, they increased the brake power with temperature. It has not been so with the brakes I made for performance cars, actually there was no difference on the cars from cold to hot.

    The heat sure leaved the brake pad through the heat sink for the most part, as the caliper got barely luke warm. Around 40C at worst.

    I guess it's time to make a more thought through design, with a better definition of the brake surface, and make the heat sink part offset from the back of the pad.

    From what I can tell so far, the pad wear is not too bad.

    To be continued......


    Magura
    That rocks, Magura! This is turning out way better than I could have possibly imagined. I think this idea is going to make somebody stinking rich, tho. Won't likely be me.

    Yeah, I don't have access to a mill, CNC or any really cool tools like you do. If I do it, it will be done with files, drills, Dremel, and hacksaws.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot
    That rocks, Magura! This is turning out way better than I could have possibly imagined. I think this idea is going to make somebody stinking rich, tho. Won't likely be me.

    Yeah, I don't have access to a mill, CNC or any really cool tools like you do. If I do it, it will be done with files, drills, Dremel, and hacksaws.
    To be honest, this is also a positive surprise to me, as I just tossed the idea into the discussion as half a joke, half a potential project.

    I guess the material cost will keep the greedy ones at bay
    Think about it. I guess I spent for like 100-200$ Carbenix (was not really paying attention, could be a bit off), add the machining, the tools, the markup, and yeeehaa, you got yourself a 600$+ set of brake pads.

    This will most likely remain a little project for fun, that only a few will ever see in real life.

    If there is enough interest to cut up an entire Carbenix plate, I'll consider selling pieces at cost, but that's about it.
    So far you're ahead, as you're the only one whom have had an offer to have a piece as a present

    I would say that you could make pads with the tools you mentioned. Carbenix is not hard as such, but abrasive, and brittle on the edges.

    Drop me a PM with your contact info, and I'll have a piece shipped across the pond.


    Magura

  10. #60
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    Wow amazing results. It's very interesting to read, apart from the little sentence about the 600$ set of pads...

    Got a new improved version running? Did you add some material to the plate or are you braking directly on the Carbenix? If so, how's wear of the Carbenix? Would they last long? Would they increase wear on rotors?
    Check out my SportTracks plugins for some training aid software.

  11. #61
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    Wow, I am more than interested as I have the exact same brakes on my off road tandem and I have heat issues. Does it howl and scream and vibrate when pushed really, really hard? I have no experience with the cabonex material and am interested in learning where to get some etc. I have a small machine shop so making the pads from it should be no problem.

  12. #62
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    Awesome project!

    I'm curious how the carbonex pads compare to sintered, in DH performance?

  13. #63
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    Hi Everybody,

    I am away on a business trip till Monday, left home Monday this week, so it's not like I have gone awol, I will get back to reply questions and PS's / emails in the beginning of next week.


    Magura

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura
    Hi Everybody,

    I am away on a business trip till Monday, left home Monday this week, so it's not like I have gone awol, I will get back to reply questions and PS's / emails in the beginning of next week.


    Magura
    I sincerely hope you apply for a US patent on this . . . do I think you are going to get rich off this idea? No. Do I think you could make some money - and not just chump change - with it? Absolutely.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by PissedOffCil
    Wow amazing results. It's very interesting to read, apart from the little sentence about the 600$ set of pads...

    Got a new improved version running? Did you add some material to the plate or are you braking directly on the Carbenix? If so, how's wear of the Carbenix? Would they last long? Would they increase wear on rotors?

    I honestly do not see a reason to make a different version, till these pads are worn out, so no new version as of yet.

    The pads consist of Cabonix exclusively, so no other materials involved.

    As expected, the initial wear is high, till the Carbenix has transferred some material to the rotor, after that the wear seems to be quite minimal.
    The pads now has a few hours on them, and it seems that the wear is around the same as organic pads, based on my initial impression, as it would take a while to get a test to brake-down done.
    To ask if they would last long, is a bit of a "rubber" question, as the definition of "long" is quite different depending whom you ask

    The rotor wear seems very low, may not even be any real rotor wear after initial break-in.


    Magura

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevoo
    Wow, I am more than interested as I have the exact same brakes on my off road tandem and I have heat issues. Does it howl and scream and vibrate when pushed really, really hard? I have no experience with the cabonex material and am interested in learning where to get some etc. I have a small machine shop so making the pads from it should be no problem.
    The brakes are totally silent, independent of power applied and rotor speed.

    As I explained in the email to you, the material is not available to the general public anywhere as far as I know, and for sure not in smaller batches. Smallest piece I have knowledge of, is approx. 2.000$.


    Magura

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by zahgurim
    Awesome project!

    I'm curious how the carbonex pads compare to sintered, in DH performance?
    From what I can tell so far, they are immune to heat (at least the amount of heat we can put in on a bike), there is no fading, and the modulation is superb, hot or cold.

    I intend to use them for DH myself this summer, as I will spend some time in Italy and Austria.


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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by OO7
    I sincerely hope you apply for a US patent on this . . . do I think you are going to get rich off this idea? No. Do I think you could make some money - and not just chump change - with it? Absolutely.
    Thanks for your concern, it is much appreciated, don't get that wrong

    I have no intention to patent this little project. It is made for fun, and will stay as that, as far as my involvement goes.
    If anything, I'd like it to be an inspiration for others.

    Besides, the Carbenix is almost impossible to buy, if you're not able to come up with a good excuse as to why they would allow people to buy it, put on top of that the cost, and I think it will be prohibitive for any company to begin making them.

    What could happen, is that I make a friend of mine make custom pads on request, but that's it. I don't want to have more to do with it, than to arrange that it happens.


    Magura

  19. #69
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    interesting thread. i would like to know how the carbenix performs without the in-machined extra surface area.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by ratmonkey
    interesting thread. i would like to know how the carbenix performs without the in-machined extra surface area.
    It will perform the same, as it performs the same up to around 600C as I recall. Above 600C you will begin to see oxidation, but you will have to push them above 600C for quite some time, for it to have any real world effect.


    Magura

    EDIT: The point of the heat sink, is to keep the temperature of the caliper as low as possible, as the laws of physics naturally still applies, thus still being the same amount of energy for the brake to dissipate. Now we just dissipate a big part through the heat sink.
    Last edited by Mr.Magura; 05-03-2011 at 12:58 PM.

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    What I was wondering was how much heat the carbenix absorbs during the braking event. After all, in the grand scheme of things bicycle brakes aren't a very high heat application.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by ratmonkey
    What I was wondering was how much heat the carbenix absorbs during the braking event. After all, in the grand scheme of things bicycle brakes aren't a very high heat application.
    It will make no difference, that be Carbenix, sinter pads, or kryptonite for that kind of matter

    There is simply too little material in the pads, to make any real world difference.


    Considering it takes at least 190C to make Dot 5.1 brake fluid boil, I beg to differ. That is a lot of heat in such an application, relatively speaking.


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  23. #73
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    Just an update:

    I have put in some more kilometers on the pads, and they seem to still wear very little.
    Next week the temperature here will rise to 25C+ and sun, which will make for a couple of interesting tests, as it will increase the ambient by 5C, and the sun will put in some heat as well.

    Tuesday May 10th. I will find out if I can talk a friend of mine into making a few custom sets of Carbenix pads.


    Magura

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot

    I was thinking of something like these little guys:

    with that large a piece of copper sticking out, you might be fine as is. Yeah it doesn't have increased surface area like a proper heatsink, but its probably enough.

    that said, if you want to try attaching more pieces and intend to keep the whole thing that large, you should look at chipset/northbridge coolers, as they are larger than those little ramsinks that you pictured. One continuous chunk is going to better than a bunch of little chunks grouped together.

    Also, you'll need to use thermal epoxy to attach them, as typical thermal grease is not meant as an adhesive, since CPU/GPU heatsinks are held in place by clamps and/or screws.
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-005-_-Product
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-013-_-Product

    here are a couple of examples of northbridge/chipset coolers:
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835708006
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835708004
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835708003

    Its is possible those could end up being too heavy, so you might be stuck using the small ram sinks. If that's the case, look for ram sinks made of copper. they also come in a longer rectangular style, though newegg doesn't seem to have them at the moment. Other computer sites should.

  25. #75
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    Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by chameleoneel
    with that large a piece of copper sticking out, you might be fine as is. Yeah it doesn't have increased surface area like a proper heatsink, but its probably enough.

    that said, if you want to try attaching more pieces and intend to keep the whole thing that large, you should look at chipset/northbridge coolers, as they are larger than those little ramsinks that you pictured. One continuous chunk is going to better than a bunch of little chunks grouped together.

    Also, you'll need to use thermal epoxy to attach them, as typical thermal grease is not meant as an adhesive, since CPU/GPU heatsinks are held in place by clamps and/or screws.
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-005-_-Product
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-013-_-Product

    here are a couple of examples of northbridge/chipset coolers:
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835708006
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835708004
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835708003

    Its is possible those could end up being too heavy, so you might be stuck using the small ram sinks. If that's the case, look for ram sinks made of copper. they also come in a longer rectangular style, though newegg doesn't seem to have them at the moment. Other computer sites should.
    I only left the fin that big because I didn't know how big the heatsink was going to be. I'm going to trim it down.... more like the Shimano XTR Trail pad's fins.

    That Northbridge heat sink looks way too big for what I had in mind. I mean, the whole heat pipe feeding it is pretty small as it is.

  26. #76
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    Can I send you some pads and have some made? How much will it cost for a set?

  27. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpeters
    Can I send you some pads and have some made? How much will it cost for a set?
    As I wrote earlier, I will not make pads, as I have a daytime job that takes up the time I feel like spending on making money.

    I have a friend whom has a workshop, and yesterday I had a chat with him in this regard. He is willing to make some pads, so just for the interest in getting a few out running in different conditions, I will sponsor some Carbenix for the first few sets.

    He is not set for making anything till June 1st. so a bit of patience will be required.

    I talked it over with the guy, and he is willing to make a set of pads for 100$.
    For having a set of pads made, you will be required to send me a set of pads, a return spring, decide how thick you want them, and a photo of your brakes.

    As he is not familiar with bikes, I will supervise the making, so any particulars should be directed to me.

    As these will be 100% custom made, any wishes that are within reason can be taken into account.

    For getting into the 100$ deal (100$ covers the machining only), it is part of the deal that you must be willing to send me a review from time to time, in exchange for that I sponsor the material.


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  28. #78
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    People complain that the new Shimano pads are expensive. Offering pads for 100$ and calling it a deal is courageous.

    Check out my SportTracks plugins for some training aid software.

  29. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by PissedOffCil
    People complain that the new Shimano pads are expensive. Offering pads for 100$ and calling it a deal is courageous.


    then don't buy them do you have any clue what one off's cost? machining and time costs someone money?

  30. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOCRIGID
    then don't buy them do you have any clue what one off's cost? machining and time costs someone money?
    It's still a lot of money for a consumable that will provide negligible benefit over what's already on the market for a lot less money.

    If you can get in the lab and show some real data, it may be worth pursuing.

  31. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by PissedOffCil
    People complain that the new Shimano pads are expensive. Offering pads for 100$ and calling it a deal is courageous.

    Considering that I throw in for approx.150$ Carbenix, in a deal to get a review, in something I am not the one getting paid for......yeah, I dare to claim it's a fair deal and then some.



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    Quote Originally Posted by jtmartino
    It's still a lot of money for a consumable that will provide negligible benefit over what's already on the market for a lot less money.

    If you can get in the lab and show some real data, it may be worth pursuing.
    Interesting

    So you start out by telling us about the "negligible" benefit, to then say there is no data.
    That's an interesting approach to something you have no clue what so ever about.

    Let's just get this straight:

    It has been offered to have a few sets made, as I have been asked, both in this thread, and on PM's for this. I have no intention making this a business, so feel free to not buy anything at all, make no difference to me, counting out that I save a few $$$.


    Magura

  33. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura
    Interesting

    So you start out by telling us about the "negligible" benefit, to then say there is no data.
    That's an interesting approach to something you have no clue what so ever about.

    Let's just get this straight:

    It has been offered to have a few sets made, as I have been asked, both in this thread, and on PM's for this. I have no intention making this a business, so feel free to not buy anything at all, make no difference to me, counting out that I save a few $$$.


    Magura

    I believe that Honeywell's Carbenix will have negligible benefit over current offerings for the MTB community.

    I encourage you to provide data that shows it is superior in a mountain bike application to current offerings, and worthy of its hefty price tag (regardless of the cost of materials.)

    Otherwise, it's an item that appeals to a niche market that doesn't exist, except the "bling" crowd.

  34. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtmartino
    I believe.

    It never seizes to amaze me, how this place attracts armchair engineers, and self appointed "experts" that with no experience can tell how things works.

    Please blow us all away with your enormous knowledge base, and don't forget to show us all the superior engineering you have achieved.


    If you took just a quick look at the thermal images posted earlier in this thread, you would see that the Carbenix pads runs like 35% colder. That would be something fairly factual for one. Take that, add the consequential benefits of even brake power at any temperature, the linear modulation (goes for any brake made of Carbenix, but naturally already knew that, right?), and stuff your armchair engineering.....

    ....and let's take this just once more for those really thick headed:

    I see no reason for making an argument comparing a leading edge, one off piece, to mass market products. As explained earlier, I was asked if I could sort out a few sets, I have even offered to sponsor the material. Now if you think it's out of your league, fine, be it, but do me a favor and keep your negative attitude to yourself, if you have nothing constructive to add.


    Magura

  35. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura
    It never seizes to amaze me, how this place attracts armchair engineers, and self appointed "experts" that with no experience can tell how things works.

    Please blow us all away with your enormous knowledge base, and don't forget to show us all the superior engineering you have achieved.


    If you took just a quick look at the thermal images posted earlier in this thread, you would see that the Carbenix pads runs like 35% colder. That would be something fairly factual for one. Take that, add the consequential benefits of even brake power at any temperature, the linear modulation (goes for any brake made of Carbenix, but naturally already knew that, right?), and stuff your armchair engineering.....

    ....and let's take this just once more for those really thick headed:

    I see no reason for making an argument comparing a leading edge, one off piece, to mass market products. As explained earlier, I was asked if I could sort out a few sets, I have even offered to sponsor the material. Now if you think it's out of your league, fine, be it, but do me a favor and keep your negative attitude to yourself, if you have nothing constructive to add.


    Magura
    Cool down buddy, nobody is saying you're wrong (the bane of every engineer's ego.) But given that most science is opinion anyways, my qualification shouldn't have been a trigger for you to freak out like a child.

    If pad temperature were the only factor contributing to brake performance, then I see how your thermal image is relevant. But other material characteristics such as durability, hardness, friction properties, etc. are important when making a brake pad.

    The only research I have done is anecdotal. Which seems to be the case with everything I've seen online regarding this issue, including your experience. So I guess my "no experience" is the same as your "no experience." Congratulations.

    There's no reason to begin the mockery - I was just sharing my opinions from a consumer standpoint. If you feel that my comments are going to hurt your pseudo non-business, then perhaps you should just provide data to prove me otherwise.

    Put up or shut up, Magura.

  36. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtmartino
    Cool down buddy, nobody is saying you're wrong (the bane of every engineer's ego.) But given that most science is opinion anyways, my qualification shouldn't have been a trigger for you to freak out like a child.

    If pad temperature were the only factor contributing to brake performance, then I see how your thermal image is relevant. But other material characteristics such as durability, hardness, friction properties, etc. are important when making a brake pad.

    The only research I have done is anecdotal. Which seems to be the case with everything I've seen online regarding this issue, including your experience. So I guess my "no experience" is the same as your "no experience." Congratulations.


    A brake to full stop from a known speed, within a known distance, using the same bike, under the same temperature and humidity conditions, is hardly anecdotal or opinion.....

    It is on the contrary, quite simple math, as you now have only one variable left, being the pad.
    Pad temp at the moment of the full stop, minus the ambient temp. Compare the two by calculating the percentage, presto! you got data.

    Durability is not really an issue if comparable to organic pads.
    Hardness has little if anything at all to do with brake performance either.
    Friction properties better than what you find in Carbenix, would be hard to find.

    I realize you may not have any need for higher brake performance, but quite a few of us are boiling the brake fluid from time to time, and have heat induced problems like fading as well. A brake pad that does not boil the brake fluid due to the fact that it runs cooler, and does not fade, makes a big difference to some of us.
    As in the difference between a crash or a fun ride.

    I spent a couple of years engineering carbon brakes for performance cars, it is not quite as simple as you seem to think it is.
    That I now have enough experience to get away with making a prototype that works well, just maybe, could have something to do with background knowledge.
    Having explained things once more, I hope you finally put in the effort and try to figure how a carbon brake works, what exactly Carbenix is, and why it is like no other friction material. (hint: look up permeability of carbon)



    Magura

  37. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura
    A brake to full stop from a known speed, within a known distance, using the same bike, under the same temperature and humidity conditions, is hardly anecdotal or opinion.....

    It is on the contrary, quite simple math, as you now have only one variable left, being the pad.
    Pad temp at the moment of the full stop, minus the ambient temp. Compare the two by calculating the percentage, presto! you got data.

    Durability is not really an issue if comparable to organic pads.
    Hardness has little if anything at all to do with brake performance either.
    Friction properties better than what you find in Carbenix, would be hard to find.

    I realize you may not have any need for higher brake performance, but quite a few of us are boiling the brake fluid from time to time, and have heat induced problems like fading as well. A brake pad that does not boil the brake fluid due to the fact that it runs cooler, and does not fade, makes a big difference to some of us.
    As in the difference between a crash or a fun ride.

    I spent a couple of years engineering carbon brakes for performance cars, it is not quite as simple as you seem to think it is.
    That I now have enough experience to get away with making a prototype that works well, just maybe, could have something to do with background knowledge.
    Having explained things once more, I hope you finally put in the effort and try to figure how a carbon brake works, what exactly Carbenix is, and why it is like no other friction material. (hint: look up permeability of carbon)



    Magura
    Thanks for the summary. Wasn't too hard to be nice and professional, was it? Except for the last paragraph, of course.

    In the thermal images above is the entire pad Carbenix, or just the heat sink? Have you tried full-Carbenix pads on your bike, and how to they work in adverse conditions?

    Thanks in advance for this information. I was wrong to be critical of your efforts - I was just providing input from a non-engineer consumer, rather than an "armchair engineer" refuting your claims.

    And, just to be fair, inhalation of carbon dust particles, including Carbenix, can be very harmful to the lungs if subjected to extended exposure. Long-term inhalation of carbon dust in a manufacturing setting as been shown to cause emphysema-like symptoms and reduced lung capacity. There are multiple articles about this in numerous medical journals, with research dating back to the 70s. While not nearly as harmful as things like asbestos, carbon dust is certainly not "safe" to inhale.

    While you may have the brake pad manufacturing under your belt, I have years of medical research under mine.

  38. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtmartino
    Thanks for the summary. Wasn't too hard to be nice and professional, was it? Except for the last paragraph, of course.

    In the thermal images above is the entire pad Carbenix, or just the heat sink? Have you tried full-Carbenix pads on your bike, and how to they work in adverse conditions?

    Thanks in advance for this information. I was wrong to be critical of your efforts - I was just providing input from a non-engineer consumer, rather than an "armchair engineer" refuting your claims.

    And, just to be fair, inhalation of carbon dust particles, including Carbenix, can be very harmful to the lungs if subjected to extended exposure. Long-term inhalation of carbon dust in a manufacturing setting as been shown to cause emphysema-like symptoms and reduced lung capacity. There are multiple articles about this in numerous medical journals, with research dating back to the 70s. While not nearly as harmful as things like asbestos, carbon dust is certainly not "safe" to inhale.

    While you may have the brake pad manufacturing under your belt, I have years of medical research under mine.
    In the thermal image, the entire pad/heat sink is Carbenix, this is due to the rather unique thermal properties of the material. Heat travels twice as much horizontal as vertical. So to make the most of it, I took advantage of that.

    So yes, the pads I have tried on my bike, are full Carbenix, as it would be counter productive to put a metal backing plate on them, since that would not allow hot air to pass.

    So far they have seen a little of everything, counting out heavily muddy conditions, as I don't have such around here for the time being. Rain has been replaced by pouring water over the brakes, but didn't seem to make much difference after the first two revolutions, even the pads absorb water like a sponge. Not that I expected water to be a problem, as it was no problem on the cars.

    The only problem I can imagine, would be those rotors that are more hole than brake surface, like Alligator rotors or the like. I think they would eat the pads real fast, as the pads would deflect from the force of the piston, and simply bend into the big holes in the rotor.

    Well, then I'd have to admit you not being an armchair engineer......fair deal

    I guess I ought to explain why you were deemed "armchair engineer". That's when the words "I believe" were coupled with a negative claim. I see now that you meant no bad with that, but just about every single time I post some DIY stuff here, there are a couple of people with an immediate need to tell how lousy the respective part is, regardless of that they have no clue what it is, or how it's made, let alone why it's made.
    That becomes pretty tiring after a while, hence the response when you walked the edge of "armchair engineer" territory.

    The dust is sure not to be taken all that lightly, though the big manufacturers seem to claim it is pretty harmless. They may be right, but I'd rather be proven wrong, than end up dead or disabled. If it was as harmless as claimed, there would be no need for me to sign a contract before being allowed to buy it, saying that I can't sell it as raw material to anybody not approved by them.
    I also work in the medical business now, engineering implants and instruments.

    I have taken my precautions, and machine it wet (alcohol). That way there is no dust, and the pads do not get contaminated.



    Magura

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    Quote Originally Posted by DOCRIGID
    then don't buy them do you have any clue what one off's cost? machining and time costs someone money?
    I hope you realized I was joking...

    Then again maybe you didn't!

    Check out my SportTracks plugins for some training aid software.

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    a small update on the project.

    Recently I got my hands on a brake rotor from a F16 Fighting Falcon.
    They are also made of Carbenix 3000, and guess what, they happen to be 205mm in diameter.

    So next step is to make a spider for it, and machine it down to the right thickness.


    Magura

  41. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    a small update on the project.

    Recently I got my hands on a brake rotor from a F16 Fighting Falcon.
    They are also made of Carbenix 3000, and guess what, they happen to be 205mm in diameter.

    So next step is to make a spider for it, and machine it down to the right thickness.


    Magura
    You'z gonna have FIGHTER JET brakes?

    That's kinda ridonkulous! (and pretty badass )

  42. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by OO7 View Post
    You'z gonna have FIGHTER JET brakes?

    That's kinda ridonkulous! (and pretty badass )
    Well, somebody has to give real carbon rotors a shot, it might as well be me

    Not that such would ever hit serial production due to cost, but the performance ought to beat just about anything out there, and it will be very light.


    Magura

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    Sounds awesome. Would love a before, during machining and after pic squence.

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    NICE !!!!! That is bad ass you will have fighter jet brakes cant wait to see this one.
    PS. How did you get that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by crank1979@optusnet.com.au View Post
    Sounds awesome. Would love a before, during machining and after pic squence.
    I'll see if I can remember to take a few pics during the process.
    I'm just not very good at keeping that in mind, but I'll try.


    Magura

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpeters View Post
    NICE !!!!! That is bad ass you will have fighter jet brakes cant wait to see this one.
    PS. How did you get that?

    I bought one, as I have the clearance for buying such from a former project. They're approx. 2.500$ a piece, if anybody is interested I can most likely arrange that a couple more can be allowed to buy one.
    I expect to be able to split it in two, to get two rotors from one, to keep cost a bit down.


    Magura

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    I bought one, as I have the clearance for buying such from a former project. They're approx. 2.500$ a piece, if anybody is interested I can most likely arrange that a couple more can be allowed to buy one.
    I expect to be able to split it in two, to get two rotors from one, to keep cost a bit down.


    Magura

    Did you say 2500 dollars for a rotor wow to rich for my blood. I am confused that means my brake rotors would cost more than my bike

  48. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpeters View Post
    Did you say 2500 dollars for a rotor wow to rich for my blood. I am confused that means my brake rotors would cost more than my bike
    Yes, 2.500US$ a piece.

    And there will be no doubt the same situation here, as the test rig is a M1 from when the world was in black and white



    Magura

  49. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    Yes, 2.500US$ a piece.

    And there will be no doubt the same situation here, as the test rig is a M1 from when the world was in black and white



    Magura
    LOL HA HA thats funny don't forget pics. Wont they break easy if they hit something?

  50. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Magura View Post
    . . . I have the clearance for buying such from a former project . . .
    How much for da' whole plane?

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