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  1. #1
    2003 Giant NRS 1
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    Hayes hydraulic to Mechanical disc brakes

    Ok, so I have Hayes hydraulic brakes, I got them with my new bike and honestly I don't know much about hydraulic. I've quickly tried learn how to deal with the braking system but so far it's damn frustrating because it went from doing a simple brake pad change (new pads) to losing that stupid little plug, getting it back, bleeding the brakes and failing, then having to take it into a shop to get the master cylinder gasket replaced and then finally re-bleeding the back which is currently failing now...

    So, here's my concerns... is this bleeding crap gonna have to be done regularly because if it weren't for that stupid ass plastic plug popping out I would never be asking all this. If this is a regular thing how bad would it be to switch to mechanical disc brakes? I know performance isn't as good but hell if it's more reliable and I don't lose THAT much performance I don't care. How easy would it be to switch brakes? (excluding the money part). Ok, I think that's it.

    Thanks

    Nick

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    Quote Originally Posted by NRS1FREAK
    Ok, so I have Hayes hydraulic brakes, I got them with my new bike and honestly I don't know much about hydraulic. I've quickly tried learn how to deal with the braking system but so far it's damn frustrating because it went from doing a simple brake pad change (new pads) to losing that stupid little plug, getting it back, bleeding the brakes and failing, then having to take it into a shop to get the master cylinder gasket replaced and then finally re-bleeding the back which is currently failing now...

    So, here's my concerns... is this bleeding crap gonna have to be done regularly because if it weren't for that stupid ass plastic plug popping out I would never be asking all this. If this is a regular thing how bad would it be to switch to mechanical disc brakes? I know performance isn't as good but hell if it's more reliable and I don't lose THAT much performance I don't care. How easy would it be to switch brakes? (excluding the money part). Ok, I think that's it.

    Thanks

    Nick
    Brakes shouldn't need to be bled that often. I've been riding my hayes hydraulic discs all season without bleeding them If done correctly you shouldn't need to do it again, unless air gets into the system or you change hydraulic lines. I'll be honest they are a pain in the a$$ to bleed until you get used to doing it. I came up with my own bleed kit that works 10 time better than the hayes kit. I use a big syringe with a hose fitted on the end. The hose fits snug on the caliper fitting and you just use the bleed fitting from hayes in the lever. With the syringe you can fill it with a lot of fluid and simply pump it into the system instead of fooling with that little dropper bottle they give you. Their system definitely works, but mine works better. Also don't buy the expensive little bottles of hayes brake fluid. You can use standard dot 3 or 4 car brake fluid. If you're doing a lot of bleeding this is much cheaper.
    As for the mechanical discs, I would only recommend the avids. All of my friends use them and they perform great. The only thing you need is your own set of v-brake levers and you're ready to go. Of course they don't feel as plush as hydraulic, but they work awesome.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by NRS1FREAK
    Ok, so I have Hayes hydraulic brakes, I got them with my new bike and honestly I don't know much about hydraulic. I've quickly tried learn how to deal with the braking system but so far it's damn frustrating because it went from doing a simple brake pad change (new pads) to losing that stupid little plug, getting it back, bleeding the brakes and failing, then having to take it into a shop to get the master cylinder gasket replaced and then finally re-bleeding the back which is currently failing now...

    So, here's my concerns... is this bleeding crap gonna have to be done regularly because if it weren't for that stupid ass plastic plug popping out I would never be asking all this. If this is a regular thing how bad would it be to switch to mechanical disc brakes? I know performance isn't as good but hell if it's more reliable and I don't lose THAT much performance I don't care. How easy would it be to switch brakes? (excluding the money part). Ok, I think that's it.

    Thanks

    Nick
    I bleed my hayes once a year, and even then they do not NEED to be done. As for the plug falling out, I assume you are using the hfx9? That about 10 inches of electrical tape, wrap it around the master cylinder covering the plug, voila no more plug loss.

    TJ

  4. #4
    2003 Giant NRS 1
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    I'm so glad the retard that design this thought of a plug that could fall out... I smell lawsuits.

    BTW: yes it is the HFX9...

  5. #5
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    call hayes

    tell em the problem get an RA# and send em back they will send you a new set of calipers, and levers with pads and pre-bled...sounds like a warrantie issue and you are the one getting bled....by your bike shop they should know that this is a warrantie issue. They have a one day turnaround in their tech shop and match you shipping return...so if you 2-day em out there you'll have em back in 5 days....
    do it bro dont spend any more money on these
    Keith Bontrager: "Strong, light, cheap pick any two."

    "Something strong and light ain't gonna be cheap. -That's what I call bling.

    And cheap and strong ain't gonna be light. -That ain't bling."
    -----[SIZE=3]locoman
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    [SIZE=2]"That said, I never deal with bike shops for the same reasons. I am a ebay and mail order whore and I don't care"[/SIZE] -----[SIZE=3]yetisurly[/SIZE]

  6. #6
    2003 Giant NRS 1
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    I never even thought about it being a warrentie thing but the bike store I went to isn't where I bought the bike. Even thought sending it in to get all the stuff replaced sounds good it doesn't sound good that I won't be able to ride my bike for however many days it takes to swap stuff. I suppose I could look into it. Thanks

    Nick

    edit: Ok, I was thinking maybe it is the best direction to look into the warrentie route but I was wondering if I do that there maybe a chance that I can swap it to mechanical disc brakes. So, should I try to swap or stay with brand new hydraulics that may have the potential to break down an have to be bleed sometime in the future like my current set.
    Last edited by NRS1FREAK; 09-15-2004 at 09:35 AM.

  7. #7
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    My new came with Hayes HFX brakes as well. I tried over and over to get them dialed in right..no matter what I did there was an audible "sching" sound from the rotors (new rotors to and not bent). I did everything the Hayes instructions directed. Finally, after much furstration, I put my old Avid Mechs back on. They are much more adjustable and reliable. I never even got to the point where I needed to bleed the Hayes but I know that bit of frustration would have driven me insane.

  8. #8
    2003 Giant NRS 1
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    I'm getting so confused with all my postings for these damn brakes... Ok, bottom line is it worth switching from Hayes hydraulic to Avid Mechanical disc brakes?? I'd much rather lose performance and gain reliability especially since disc are so good as it is.

  9. #9
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    I would say yes, it is worth it. A lot of the mechanical guru's here will disagree with me and say that the increase in smoothness and power is worth the hassle of hydro-brakes but, for me, nothing beats reliability. If a pad is hitting on my avid mechs I can just twist a knob for that pad. I never have to worry about air in the lines or leaking fluids. If I crash I'm not as concerned about my cable lines as I could be about the hydro lines.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vecsus
    I would say yes, it is worth it. A lot of the mechanical guru's here will disagree with me and say that the increase in smoothness and power is worth the hassle of hydro-brakes but, for me, nothing beats reliability. If a pad is hitting on my avid mechs I can just twist a knob for that pad. I never have to worry about air in the lines or leaking fluids. If I crash I'm not as concerned about my cable lines as I could be about the hydro lines.

    I guess he has a point about the hydro vs. mechanical debate it really does come down to the mechanical ability of the user. Avids can be easy to set up but i have a friend who has avid mechs on one bike and hayes hydro's on another. On long down hills the avids fade to almost non-existence....not something i would like very much.

    I have had HFX-9's on my bike all summer and have loved them. I had to bleed them once and it wasn't too difficult, squeeze fluid from a nipple on caliper and it comes out the master cylinder at lever. I had to send them back because a caliper wasn't retracting, it cost me $15 in shipping, i had them back in 5 days totally refurbished w/a set of brand new pads in them. i have had to loosen the bolts on the caliper that attach to the IS (international standard) mount that attaches to the frame and the fork and recenter the caliper on the rotor when i change wheels or pads...but this isn't that difficult either...loosen two bolts...use a flashlight to center pads..grab the lever and tighten the bolts back up. I love the reliability of hydro-discs, the "modulation" and huge advance in strength over v-brakes. It has been a little of a learning curve but not insurmountable by any means. And Hayes has been great on the phone and at tech tent at mount snow.
    hope this helps ya bud...no one is trying to confuse ya.
    Keith Bontrager: "Strong, light, cheap pick any two."

    "Something strong and light ain't gonna be cheap. -That's what I call bling.

    And cheap and strong ain't gonna be light. -That ain't bling."
    -----[SIZE=3]locoman
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    [SIZE=2]"That said, I never deal with bike shops for the same reasons. I am a ebay and mail order whore and I don't care"[/SIZE] -----[SIZE=3]yetisurly[/SIZE]

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by vermont
    I guess he has a point about the hydro vs. mechanical debate it really does come down to the mechanical ability of the user. Avids can be easy to set up but i have a friend who has avid mechs on one bike and hayes hydro's on another. On long down hills the avids fade to almost non-existence....not something i would like very much.
    Wouldn't disc brake fade on a DH be due to the pad &/or rotor rather than the "hydro vs mech" issue? Looking at it another way, assuming equal pads & rotors why would a properly set-up cable lever system be more likely to fade than a hydro system?

  12. #12
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    New question here. Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTeen
    Wouldn't disc brake fade on a DH be due to the pad &/or rotor rather than the "hydro vs mech" issue? Looking at it another way, assuming equal pads & rotors why would a properly set-up cable lever system be more likely to fade than a hydro system?
    is my guess...but i dunno all i know is that many on this forum have spoken of it the people that i know that ride with them have experienced it.
    Keith Bontrager: "Strong, light, cheap pick any two."

    "Something strong and light ain't gonna be cheap. -That's what I call bling.

    And cheap and strong ain't gonna be light. -That ain't bling."
    -----[SIZE=3]locoman
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    [SIZE=2]"That said, I never deal with bike shops for the same reasons. I am a ebay and mail order whore and I don't care"[/SIZE] -----[SIZE=3]yetisurly[/SIZE]

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by vermont
    is my guess...but i dunno all i know is that many on this forum have spoken of it the people that i know that ride with them have experienced it.


    personally i prefer mechs over hydro, but hydro does put more power to the rotor. but only if there set up right and maintanied

  14. #14
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    if the Avids faded on a long DH, they probably had tiny rotors, or worn pads, or both.

    I've run the Avid Mechs on many bikes, and the 185mm rotors front/rear gave me enough power on sustained DH runs for my 165 lbs on a 34lbs bike.

    I've run Hayes MagDH 8" rotors on two different FR bikes (Bullit and now Scream) and I have to say that they don't feel more powerful than the Avids, but the power is delivered much more smoothly with hydraulics. But Hayes hydros have that "on/off" characteristic that gives little modulation. Feathering your brakes with Hayes hydros is a micro proposition, done with tiny lever movements.

    I also have Hope Minis and Hope Mono M4 discs and I find that the Hopes have the very nicest feel and modulation of any disc brake. But they're hard to set up, and some models (especially the Mini) squeal like mad a lot of the time. My Mono M4s are silent though.

    The very best thing about the Avids is the ease of setup and the fine tuning of leverage you get if you use Avid's speed dial levers. And, if you use the Speed Dial Ultimate with clean cable routing, they feel VERY close to hydros because of the quality of the lever travel in the Ultimates.

    I doubt that your problems with the Hayes are related to hydraulics. Sounds more like you started fiddling with them, messed up, and now you are saying its the fault of the hydraulics. If you'd left them alone, or had an experienced disc brake mechanic do the work, I'd bet you would find the Hayes hydros nice and easy to use.

    On the other hand, if you want to burn some money, remove the Hayes, sell 'em on eBay or the MTBR classifieds, and replace them with Avids... but don't forget you need v-brake levers (and best of all, Avid Speed Dial levers) to get the most adjustment out of the Avid mechs.

  15. #15
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    just to get it straight gonzostrike

    what you are saying is that 160mm discs are too small for Avid mechs
    I've run the Avid Mechs on many bikes, and the 185mm rotors front/rear gave me enough power
    and you need Avid's top-of-the-line lever and cable combo
    And, if you use the Speed Dial Ultimate with clean cable routing, they feel VERY close to hydros because of the quality of the lever travel in the Ultimates.
    . So at this price level you can have hydro's. And the only reason not to have hydro's is because they are mechanically daunting to most average bikers?
    I doubt that your problems with the Hayes are related to hydraulics. Sounds more like you started fiddling with them, messed up, and now you are saying its the fault of the hydraulics. If you'd left them alone, or had an experienced disc brake mechanic do the work, I'd bet you would find the Hayes hydros nice and easy to use.
    Keith Bontrager: "Strong, light, cheap pick any two."

    "Something strong and light ain't gonna be cheap. -That's what I call bling.

    And cheap and strong ain't gonna be light. -That ain't bling."
    -----[SIZE=3]locoman
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    [SIZE=2]"That said, I never deal with bike shops for the same reasons. I am a ebay and mail order whore and I don't care"[/SIZE] -----[SIZE=3]yetisurly[/SIZE]

  16. #16
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    why on Earth would you take my statements and turn them into something I did NOT say?

    I didn't say that the 160mm rotors are "too small" as a general proposition. I was responding to the claim that they have bad fade on long descents. from that description it sounded like worn pads, bad adjustment or too small a rotor.

    it depends on how fast you ride, how you brake, how much you weigh, what kinds of trails you ride. I would think that most MTBR folks, who are generally non-racer XC riders, would find the 160mm rotors fine. anyone who rides sustained descents, weighs over 190-200 lbs, who "rides" the brake (sometimes called "dragging" the brake) -- any of these people might benefit from bumping to a 185mm rotor up front, where most stopping power resides.

    as to the rest of your post, you put words in my mouth. I said none of those things you've highlighted in bold. apparently you have problems with reading comprehension -- you see what you want to see, and not what's written.

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    ouch

    as to the rest of your post, you put words in my mouth. I said none of those things you've highlighted in bold. apparently you have problems with reading comprehension -- you see what you want to see, and not what's written
    .
    a personal attack, kinda uncalled for i was just trying to clarify what you had posted. Esp. when the idea is to help a dude who is contemplating spending a whole bunch of money on an inferior (imo) system.
    Keith Bontrager: "Strong, light, cheap pick any two."

    "Something strong and light ain't gonna be cheap. -That's what I call bling.

    And cheap and strong ain't gonna be light. -That ain't bling."
    -----[SIZE=3]locoman
    [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=2]"That said, I never deal with bike shops for the same reasons. I am a ebay and mail order whore and I don't care"[/SIZE] -----[SIZE=3]yetisurly[/SIZE]

  18. #18
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    I use the 203mm Avid rotors....they never fade.....never. I used my friends hayes mags, but also tried the mono6ti's....no comparision. The mags have more modulation than the Avids, about the same power, but of course...are hydro, and about double the price. Ive used Avids all season, not one problem with fade...Vermont, im not sure what your friend is running....but try and clarify it first. The HFX-9's are junk...period. They are decent, but are not worth the money, nor the time. O yeah, im running my Avids with $5 housing and cables, and SD5 levers. How exactly are the Avid's inferior when they match the power of the hayes, are cheaper, are easier to tune, when the only thing that is a bit worse is the modulation...which can be fixed. If your buddy was having brake fade with the Avids on "long DH's"....I think he needs to let off the brakes.

  19. #19
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    If your buddy was having brake fade with the Avids on "long DH's"....I think he needs to let off the brakes
    .
    LMAO: you may be right on that one. but its something i've read about others on this forum having and maybe its heat and the larger rotors dissapate it better.
    Keith Bontrager: "Strong, light, cheap pick any two."

    "Something strong and light ain't gonna be cheap. -That's what I call bling.

    And cheap and strong ain't gonna be light. -That ain't bling."
    -----[SIZE=3]locoman
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    [SIZE=2]"That said, I never deal with bike shops for the same reasons. I am a ebay and mail order whore and I don't care"[/SIZE] -----[SIZE=3]yetisurly[/SIZE]

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by vermont
    .
    LMAO: you may be right on that one. but its something i've read about others on this forum having and maybe its heat and the larger rotors dissapate it better.
    so you're just repeating what you HEAR and what you GUESS is the case?

    no wonder you were busy putting words in my mouth. you haven't any real knowledge, you're just spreading hearsay. great. I'm sure that's really helpful. maybe you have heard some thoughts about how to arrive at world peace, and could share them with the UN?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by vermont
    .
    a personal attack, kinda uncalled for i was just trying to clarify what you had posted. Esp. when the idea is to help a dude who is contemplating spending a whole bunch of money on an inferior (imo) system.
    BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION you haven't enough experience to know what is inferior. that's what I'm talking about. you just want so badly to be an "expert," don't you?

    pathetic.

  22. #22
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    LMAO........


    I swear the things you read on forums make me laugh so hard. The more i hear about how this is better about that... My dad is stronger then your dad...

    Just STFU and understand you can't control science.. if something is better then the other then suck it up. Someone might have something better then yours i wouldnt care. take for example hydro and mech brakes.... On a bicycle i rather the mechs because they are not designed that well to be reliable. Now for a vehicle such as a 4,000lb car well duh hydro.. they are better when built better but right now, mech are just as strong and more reliable. SO SCREW THE HYDRO .../..(_>.<_)..\....

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamyD
    LMAO........


    I swear the things you read on forums make me laugh so hard. The more i hear about how this is better about that... My dad is stronger then your dad...

    Just STFU and understand you can't control science.. if something is better then the other then suck it up. Someone might have something better then yours i wouldnt care. take for example hydro and mech brakes.... On a bicycle i rather the mechs because they are not designed that well to be reliable. Now for a vehicle such as a 4,000lb car well duh hydro.. they are better when built better but right now, mech are just as strong and more reliable. SO SCREW THE HYDRO .../..(_>.<_)..\....
    yup yer right what you have is the best, what i have sucks. I want to be an expert but i am not, i am pathetic.

    I love this forum. So uplifting to my spirit. Really makes me feel good to try an help someone and be personally attacked because my opinion differs from anothers.

    This is the second thread where I have posted my opinion on a matter and have been suckered into an endless debate that ended in someone insulting me. I never claimed to be an expert. I started out giving this guy information that was my experience with hydro's and my friends experience with mechs. And you are correct Gonzo he is a big guy (195), he is using small rotors (160mm) and he does stay on the brakes too much (imo), but both the rotors and pads are new (as well as cable and housing). On his new bike he has HFX-9's and he says they are better than the avids....everybody is different i guess.
    Keith Bontrager: "Strong, light, cheap pick any two."

    "Something strong and light ain't gonna be cheap. -That's what I call bling.

    And cheap and strong ain't gonna be light. -That ain't bling."
    -----[SIZE=3]locoman
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    [SIZE=2]"That said, I never deal with bike shops for the same reasons. I am a ebay and mail order whore and I don't care"[/SIZE] -----[SIZE=3]yetisurly[/SIZE]

  24. #24
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    [QUOTE=gonzostrike]BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION you haven't enough experience to know what is inferior. that's what I'm talking about. you just want so badly to be an "expert," don't you?[QUOTE]


    yah but i'm enuff of an "expert" to not do this...
    using Avid Mechs with X-5
    Keith Bontrager: "Strong, light, cheap pick any two."

    "Something strong and light ain't gonna be cheap. -That's what I call bling.

    And cheap and strong ain't gonna be light. -That ain't bling."
    -----[SIZE=3]locoman
    [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=2]"That said, I never deal with bike shops for the same reasons. I am a ebay and mail order whore and I don't care"[/SIZE] -----[SIZE=3]yetisurly[/SIZE]

  25. #25
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    Entertaining to say the least !!

    I read this thread to learn about the hydor vs mech scene.. got much more than I expected !! I will have to admit that hydros are smoother, especially on an expensive pair you can modulate.. but based on price,, the Avid mechs at $140/pair is hard to justify. Thanks guys for a great read !!

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