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  1. #1
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    Disc pad grease on Avid for turkey warbble?

    I was listening to Car Talk on NPR a couple of wknds about and Click and Clack mentioned brake pad grease to reduce squealing. They went thru a long dissertation as to why/how squealing comes from the pad/piston interface in the caliper (at least in cars). Just curious if anyone has tried this to fix the horrendous Avid noises?

    For those of you thinking I'm insane to apply grease to disc brakes (goes between disc pad backing and piston): CRC Industries 5359 - Brake Caliper Synthetic Grease | O'Reilly Auto Parts
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  2. #2
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    I do not htink it would help. I'm an avid (pun intended) believer that the Avid rotors are junk and are just never true which causes the turkey calls. I'm riding Elixir 7s that came stock on my bike and hate them with a passion. My front rotor is the noiser of the 2 and it comes out of true no matter how much special attention I give it to keep it straight. The same goes for the rear rotor though it doesn't make as much noise.

    In the past, I changed the brake setup on my hardtail from Avid BB7s to Hayes and the Hayes rotors are thicker and stay true and do not make constant noise like the Avid rotors. Avid brakes are horrible.

  3. #3
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    I am also not a fan of Avid. I had Elixir 5s on mine and my wife's bike and swapped them out for some Shimanos. But we kept the rotors and all is well now. Not sure the problem is always the rotor.

    To the OP. Try the grease. It may help. I used CRC Disk Brake Quiet and it did not help. It definitely works on cars.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtorlando25 View Post
    I do not htink it would help. I'm an avid (pun intended) believer that the Avid rotors are junk and are just never true which causes the turkey calls. I'm riding Elixir 7s that came stock on my bike and hate them with a passion. My front rotor is the noiser of the 2 and it comes out of true no matter how much special attention I give it to keep it straight. The same goes for the rear rotor though it doesn't make as much noise.

    In the past, I changed the brake setup on my hardtail from Avid BB7s to Hayes and the Hayes rotors are thicker and stay true and do not make constant noise like the Avid rotors. Avid brakes are horrible.
    I dont think this is the case. I changed my elixir 5s to XTs but kept the avid rotors and no noise.

    To answer the OP question, you should just read the turkey warble mega thread. One thing that does work is CRC brake adhesive.

    I did the following:

    If you havent previously bedded your brakes you can sand your rotors and clean with brake cleaning fluid. Sand your pads as well. You can google how to do this.

    Make sure you bed your brakes - 15-20 slow stops from 10-15mph and then another 15 stops from a higher speed (you google proper bed procedure). Properly bedding your brakes can get you part of the way there to reduce the warble. If you havent bedded your brakes you really need to. It definitely is a pain though, especially since you have been riding with them already so pretty much need to do step 1 (cleaning the pads and rotors). I did do the above but it is possible it wasnt necessary.

    make sure the calipers are centered on the rotor (google for how to align calipers). I do it by loosening the bolts, squeezing the levers, then tightening by alternating between bolts. Then loosening one and aligning by eye, then tightening it gently, then loosening the other and aligning by eye. Shining light through helps. Spin the wheel to see if the rotor is true or making contact with the pads.

    Remove brake pads and apply CRC brake adhesive to the back of the pads and where the pad contacts the spring. Do not touch the pad brake surface with your fingers. Ideally you would wear nitrile gloves.

    I had terrible problems with brake noise but after I did this they were quiet. I started having problems with mushy levers so I bled them. The bleed wasnt that great so I ordered XTs. While waiting I bled again and was more careful and I was getting full power. Since I already bought the XTs I just decided to keep them and sell the elixir 5s but I was able to get them to be quiet and have full power.

  5. #5
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    Some clarification...

    I don't have the turkey warble on any of my Avid brakes, and I (still) have a set of Juicy 7, 3 sets of Elixir CR/2010 Code, and 2011 Codes. The only sound I get out of my Avid is the very high pitch squeal, which I think what you guys call CRC may help. I don't know if any one else mounts their rotors like I do, but...with the torx bolts in but not tightened, I twist the rotor into the rotor bolts before I snug them up on every wheel. I don't know if this is why I don't get the warbles tho.

    The suggestion on the CRC was something I had gleaned from Car Talk. Anyway, it was a curiosity/attempt at a solution for those with the warble problem. But according to likeaboss, no dice...

    Edit: I will go and check out that warble mega-thread tho...seems that it's a defacto thing w/ Avids, and I'm the outlier.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    I don't have the turkey warble on any of my Avid brakes, and I (still) have a set of Juicy 7, 3 sets of Elixir CR/2010 Code, and 2011 Codes. The only sound I get out of my Avid is the very high pitch squeal, which I think what you guys call CRC may help. I don't know if any one else mounts their rotors like I do, but...with the torx bolts in but not tightened, I twist the rotor into the rotor bolts before I snug them up on every wheel. I don't know if this is why I don't get the warbles tho.

    The suggestion on the CRC was something I had gleaned from Car Talk. Anyway, it was a curiosity/attempt at a solution for those with the warble problem. But according to likeaboss, no dice...

    Edit: I will go and check out that warble mega-thread tho...seems that it's a defacto thing w/ Avids, and I'm the outlier.
    I have been using Avid disc brakes since 2000 and still do not know what the "turkey warble" is. Mostly with Avid rotors and a couple of other brands.

    They do make some noise from time to time, but never for very long, and if the squeal is consistent a quick realignment/pad adjustment fixes it.

    I would never put anything on the pads for any reason.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    I have been using Avid disc brakes since 2000 and still do not know what the "turkey warble" is. Mostly with Avid rotors and a couple of other brands.

    They do make some noise from time to time, but never for very long, and if the squeal is consistent a quick realignment/pad adjustment fixes it.

    I would never put anything on the pads for any reason.
    Shiggy, no...
    The CRC stuff goes between the pad's backing plate and the piston surface. It doesn't go on the pad to rotor surface. During braking, you can reach a situation where the pad moves against the piston surface at a resonance frequency and create vibration/sound and thus the squeal. CRC, or what I called grease, is like a damping agent to get that movement out of resonance and thus cut noise. And, resonance can occur at several frequencies/harmonics...
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    Shiggy, no...
    The CRC stuff goes between the pad's backing plate and the piston surface. It doesn't go on the pad to rotor surface. During braking, you can reach a situation where the pad moves against the piston surface at a resonance frequency and create vibration/sound and thus the squeal. CRC, or what I called grease, is like a damping agent to get that movement out of resonance and thus cut noise. And, resonance can occur at several frequencies/harmonics...
    I know what you meant.
    The backing plate is still part of the pad. There is so little space in a bicycle caliper compared to an automotive brake I would never add anything to the inside of the caliper that could easily migrate to places it should not be. Just asking for trouble.

    I have never had a big issue with noise or vibration that could not be solved by simply adjusting the brake.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post

    I have never had a big issue with noise or vibration that could not be solved by simply adjusting the brake.
    Either you're a mad genius or 10 thousand other Avid users are incomprehensibly inept.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride View Post
    ...or 10 thousand other Avid users are incomprehensibly inept.
    I'd pick this one if it was a pop quiz
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    ...I would never add anything to the inside of the caliper that could easily migrate to places it should not be. Just asking for trouble.
    Yeah, you're not slathering it on there like cream cheese on a bagel... I'm pretty certain a thin film of it will be all that's required...but hey, only my conjecture. However, from experiences w/ anti-seize compound...
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  12. #12
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    Toyota supplies a copper-based high temperature grease to be applied to the back of the brake pads. It acts as a noise dampener. My Avids CR's occasionally turkey wabble, but , organic pads have made it tolerable.
    Turkey wabble and brake squeal I consider two different things.
    By the way , Ray, from the Good News Garage, is a friend of mine. I'm not sure if he is Click or Clack.
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  13. #13
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    Replace sintered pads with semi-metallic or organic...worked on every Avid disc brake set I've owned including Juicy, Elixir, and BB7

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bike Whisperer View Post
    Replace sintered pads with semi-metallic or organic...worked on every Avid disc brake set I've owned including Juicy, Elixir, and BB7
    I'm assuming you're talking about those Disco Brake pads? How are those for longevity and grabbyness? I just threw down on an order for 4 sets of Codes and 4 sets of Elixir semi-metallics...I run this combo pretty much exclusively for frt and rr, respectively w/ Elixir CR levers. TIA BW.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    I'm assuming you're talking about those Disco Brake pads? How are those for longevity and grabbyness? I just threw down on an order for 4 sets of Codes and 4 sets of Elixir semi-metallics...I run this combo pretty much exclusively for frt and rr, respectively w/ Elixir CR levers. TIA BW.
    I've found the Alligator Semi-Metallic pads last well even in the wet and muddy PNW, no issues at all with durability. Sure they don't last as long as sintered pads but they last a winter of weekend warrior rides. The bite is good for XC/Trail riding with minimal fade.

    Alligator organic pads work great for dry XC rides but do wear pretty quick in wet and muddy riding and also fade on long descents.

    I have a box full of sintered Avid pads, simply don't use them as they all squeal no matter how much cleaning, burning in, and alignment I do.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bike Whisperer View Post
    I've found the Alligator Semi-Metallic pads last well even in the wet and muddy PNW, no issues at all with durability. Sure they don't last as long as sintered pads but they last a winter of weekend warrior rides. The bite is good for XC/Trail riding with minimal fade.

    Alligator organic pads work great for dry XC rides but do wear pretty quick in wet and muddy riding and also fade on long descents.

    I have a box full of sintered Avid pads, simply don't use them as they all squeal no matter how much cleaning, burning in, and alignment I do.
    Cool thanks! I hope I can get a full season out of a set since I'm in the land of dust and sunshine
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  17. #17
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    tried the grease. didn't do squat. put on Alligator Serration rotors, no problems for six months, and 2 sets of pads. (kool stop pads) Avid Elixer 5sl

  18. #18
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    Everything is important in disc brakes. Like has been said, you first have to get them on straight. Sometimes it takes a while to get them right. Also, you can often get away with not bedding in your pads if you also have straight rotors and organic pads, but it doesn't hurt to go through the process. Once I know I have a straight rotor and the brakes are installed properly, I don't bother bedding in the second or third set of pads. Just go ride. The pad material is already on the rotor. I have owned every model of Avid rotors and it seems like every other one is not straight. The straight ones are usually quiet and the crooked ones usually suck, no matter what brakes you run them on.

    The Alligator Windcutter rotors are cheap rotors that I have had very good luck with being true out of the package, but the minimal surface area means they fade much quicker. These may be a good solution if you don't ride long and steep trails. Run a thicker and heavier rotor that has more of a reputation for being true, like the Hayes or Shimano, if weight doesn't matter.

  19. #19
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    Since the Avid pads are bolted in (not floating with springs) automotive disc brake "quiet" won't help. i believe the howl is a resonation in certain rotors.

  20. #20
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    Tried the grease on my XX's, didn't do a thing for the gobble. Fixed it permanently by replacing them with a set of MT8's
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by TTTURNER View Post
    Everything is important in disc brakes. Like has been said, you first have to get them on straight. Sometimes it takes a while to get them right. Also, you can often get away with not bedding in your pads if you also have straight rotors and organic pads, but it doesn't hurt to go through the process. Once I know I have a straight rotor and the brakes are installed properly, I don't bother bedding in the second or third set of pads. Just go ride. The pad material is already on the rotor. I have owned every model of Avid rotors and it seems like every other one is not straight. The straight ones are usually quiet and the crooked ones usually suck, no matter what brakes you run them on.

    The Alligator Windcutter rotors are cheap rotors that I have had very good luck with being true out of the package, but the minimal surface area means they fade much quicker. These may be a good solution if you don't ride long and steep trails. Run a thicker and heavier rotor that has more of a reputation for being true, like the Hayes or Shimano, if weight doesn't matter.
    So you true the rotors. Simple to do.

    And I hate organic pads. No power. Terrible in the wet. EBC Golds are wonderful.

    My favorite pads and rotors are no longer made, though (Galfer).
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoban View Post
    Since the Avid pads are bolted in (not floating with springs) automotive disc brake "quiet" won't help. i believe the howl is a resonation in certain rotors.
    My pads do not bolt in.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    My pads do not bolt in.
    +1
    I think he's talking about that retaining/guide pin... The pads have so much play on that pin, I wouldn't consider the pads "bolted in" in any arena.

    Anyway, will update w/ how the semi-metallic Disco Brakes pads do in the 2011 Code and Elixir calipers soon. Having some issues w/ pulsing of the Codes w/ 50% pads left on a brand new G3 rotor.

    Slightly OT: I also have a set of M988s... Is it me or do those brakes feel too light on the lever pull and never really bottom on the pads...almost to the point of feeling...cheap...for a lack of a better descript...like those BB7s, but w/o the heavy spring resistance? I have them on Goodridge hoses too! On the Avid Elixir/Codes, the front and rear feels identical once I swapped them to Goodridge hoses. But there is a HUGE difference in feel between the frt and rr w/ the M988s. Anyway, got a M820 caliper coming for the front and I'll stick a new set of pads in the rear to get a better baseline of how things should be. In case ppl think I have air in the system, I used the Avid bleed method on these M988s...where you pull a vacuum. The system doesn't have trapped air.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    So you true the rotors. Simple to do.

    And I hate organic pads. No power. Terrible in the wet. EBC Golds are wonderful.

    My favorite pads and rotors are no longer made, though (Galfer).
    I shouldn't have to true my new rotors. Besides, my Avid rotors have always wanted to creep back towards their original shape after a few rides. I don't know if that is the norm, but it gets old. Sintered pads make a lot more noise in the dusty desert where I live and I like the softer feel. EBC pads are good.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim22 View Post
    tried the grease. didn't do squat.
    Gotcha. Thanks.
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  26. #26
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    The biggest thing that cured my warble was pad placement. If the brake pad engagement was below the rotor pad area to where it was into where the "spokes" were it had a ton of noise. Shim the bolt with a 5mm washer or two to get it up to engage the braking surface only and the problem was 90% solved. Just a minute amount of the brake pad being below the bra
    king surface will make noise.

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    Agree with firebike7. This is exactly what I did to solve my problem!

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by firebike7 View Post
    The biggest thing that cured my warble was pad placement. If the brake pad engagement was below the rotor pad area to where it was into where the "spokes" were it had a ton of noise. Shim the bolt with a 5mm washer or two to get it up to engage the braking surface only and the problem was 90% solved. Just a minute amount of the brake pad being below the bra
    king surface will make noise.
    Any chance we can get a pic? Are you suggesting the washer goes between the caliper and the actual bike frame?
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    Hmm...Firebike I'm gonna give that a try.

    I paid attention on today's ride. Front squeals, rear does not; both Elixir 1s. Well, the front pads are in contact with the rotor spokes (just a little) and the rear ones are not. Bike is in the garage drying off, and I'll be looking for some suitable washers in a couple of minutes.

    Edit - There was a bit of play in the caliper mounting holes, so I just slid the caliper as far away from the center of the rotor as possible before tightening the bolts. We'll see if that was enough or if I have to add washers.
    Last edited by JoeG; 02-05-2013 at 05:50 PM.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by jclyle View Post
    Are you suggesting the washer goes between the caliper and the actual bike frame?
    I gather it would go between the adapter and caliper, so the latter would be placed further from the center.

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    If I need to add a washer, I'd put it between the brake caliper and adapter just like Saul says.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saul Lumikko View Post
    I gather it would go between the adapter and caliper, so the latter would be placed further from the center.
    correct
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    As per Firebike and others above, I moved the caliper as far from the axle as I could using the play in the caliper mounting holes. I did not any any washers yet.

    On a pretty short ride tonight, but no squealing. So, this might have been enough. I'll keep an eye on it, but things look promising!

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeG View Post
    As per Firebike and others above, I moved the caliper as far from the axle as I could using the play in the caliper mounting holes. I did not any any washers yet.

    On a pretty short ride tonight, but no squealing. So, this might have been enough. I'll keep an eye on it, but things look promising!
    I checked to see pad wear on the disc spokes and sure enough there is so i'll give this a shot since it only takes 2 washers to move it outbound.
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    I eliminated turkey warbble (at least for now) in the front by switching to red pads. The rear still squeals when wet and the pads contact rotor spokes. I'll move the caliper back to clear the rotors and report if squealing is reduced / eliminated.

  36. #36
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    Pad alternative

    Quote Originally Posted by Bike Whisperer View Post
    Replace sintered pads with semi-metallic or organic...worked on every Avid disc brake set I've owned including Juicy, Elixir, and BB7
    I've read that people have luck with these too: Serfas Avid Elixir Disc Brake Pads > Components > Brakes > Brake Pads | Jenson USA Online Bike Shop although they supposedly don't last as long.

    I have new Elixir 3s and experience a little brake noise on my front but none from my rear, but nothing overly-annoying. I made a point to bed the brakes per the service manual and it helped. I also soak/clean the pads in isopropyl alcohol before each ride and this really helps with even the little noise. Braking power is not an issue at all and overall I'm a fan of the Elixirs for now but will probably try the Serfas pads or the Jagwire Red pads when these wear out..
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saul Lumikko View Post
    I eliminated turkey warbble (at least for now) in the front by switching to red pads. The rear still squeals when wet and the pads contact rotor spokes. I'll move the caliper back to clear the rotors and report if squealing is reduced / eliminated.
    by red pads do you mean organic?? On the few disc brakes i've used they have squeeled when wet and stop when dry.
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    EBC Red labels. Might be the organic ones people talk about. I was adviced that they grip better but wear out faster. Squeeling when wet, not at all when dry. Got rid of the warbble, though.

    The rear is still squeeling even after moving the caliper so that the pads surely don't touch the rotor spokes. Might have to try something else.

    I have grown a dislike towards the angle-adjusting convex + concave bits on the caliper mount. They seem to have a "locked" position they revert to, even after setting the caliper angle according to the disc. I'm thinking of replacing them with solid bushings and take care of caliper alignment by facing the adapter mount. I'd only use the elongated holes on the caliper to adjust it sideways and that's it. I'm wondering if this kind of mounting method would be more rigid and reduce resonance. Any thoughts or experience on this?

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saul Lumikko View Post
    EBC Red labels. Might be the organic ones people talk about. I was adviced that they grip better but wear out faster. Squeeling when wet, not at all when dry. Got rid of the warbble, though.
    According to EBC:Red pads. "These are extra high in friction but still an organic pad for use on all types of rotors' so not a full organic such as their Green pads:These are a high quality organic formulation producing an excellent all round replacement pad for pleasure riding, cross country and trekking.



    I have grown a dislike towards the angle-adjusting convex + concave bits on the caliper mount. They seem to have a "locked" position they revert to, even after setting the caliper angle according to the disc. I'm thinking of replacing them with solid bushings and take care of caliper alignment by facing the adapter mount. I'd only use the elongated holes on the caliper to adjust it sideways and that's it. I'm wondering if this kind of mounting method would be more rigid and reduce resonance. Any thoughts or experience on this?
    I tend to agree with your findings Saul however my juicy 5's on my full squish have them along with organic pads and the only squeal is when wet otherwise none.
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    Fwi. I've never had any long term audible issues. Used juicy 7, xo, and xx. In order to reduce the chances of cps washer bedding. once rotated one of the washers 90*. Also to reduce the chances of any torque induced movement. I have always alternated between the caliper bolts. Turning each just a hair at a time.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saul Lumikko View Post

    I have grown a dislike towards the angle-adjusting convex + concave bits on the caliper mount. They seem to have a "locked" position they revert to, even after setting the caliper angle according to the disc.
    This is my experience too. The washers have some kind of "home" position that they migrate to when tightening down the mounting bolts. I put a tiny amount of grease on the convex/concave washers and that made it much easier to align the calipers. I didn't have much of a squeal problem but the little there was disappeared after the grease treatment, probably because the calipers are now better aligned.

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    When it's 20 below freezing and the snow lays 10 inches deep, bicycle commuting kind of sucks.

  42. #42
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    I just got in from a ride, and both of my Elixir 1s now pull to the bar. If you pump the lever a couple of times, you build up pressure and they work briefly. They're less than 2 months old FFS.

    Now I need to figure out whether it is worth sending them in under warranty (time and shipping cost) or not. They'll probably do a bleed and send them back. LBS said $40 to bleed the pair when I checked with them a while ago, so more $ but less time off of the bike. Or I could buy a bleed kit ($40 for Avid one, less for others w/o bleed blocks) and do it myself.

    Or I could buy new brakes from a different manufacturer...

  43. #43
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    That sounds like a problem you could face regardless of manufacturer.

    That said, I bought a set of Formula brakes to see if the grass is greener. At least I can use my existing bleed kit with those.

  44. #44
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    Saul - yeah, I understand that, its just disappointing to have to do it so soon.

    My other brakes are Magura and I can bleed them myself pretty easily. I've had to do that maybe every two years since they were new in Fall 2007. They're mineral oil though so would need a new bleed kit for the Avid DOT fluid.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    Shiggy, no...
    The CRC stuff goes between the pad's backing plate and the piston surface. It doesn't go on the pad to rotor surface. During braking, you can reach a situation where the pad moves against the piston surface at a resonance frequency and create vibration/sound and thus the squeal. CRC, or what I called grease, is like a damping agent to get that movement out of resonance and thus cut noise. And, resonance can occur at several frequencies/harmonics...
    No, it's a resonance frequency between the piston and the pad. It's a resonance frequency between the pad and the rotor. Putting the CRC between the pad the the caliper piston helps damping/absorb that vibration. Car brakes 101. That's the reason many Japanese car brakes have those shims on the backing plate of the pad.

  46. #46
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    Since the pad trac was making slight contact with the disc spokes i used 5mm shims/washers between caliper & fork mount to move it farther away and test rode but to no avail it continues to warbble away. BTW this is not with Avid but Hayes stroker Tr brakes and Magura storm sl disc's. My next test step is Organic pads.
    Last edited by nvphatty; 02-16-2013 at 09:38 AM.
    plus+, plus+ = win:

  47. #47
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    To no avail the above had no effect..........however the following did.

    I've done proper burnishing of pads to no avail, tried yet a 2nd set with proper bedding in but sadly no better.....UNTIL the zip-tie mod on magura storm SL discs, i installed 3 smallish ties spanning 2 spokes each on the front and the instant reduction in warbble / squeal was significant to the point i can accept what little remains. I also installed 1 zip on the rear spanning 3 spokes and it too was instantaneous as though a damper of sorts was added (actually was).
    Overall my feeling about this is perhaps the magura disc spokes are too thin width wise in their effort to shave weight, hhmm maybe, maybe not but perhaps an mech engineer can expound on such if there's one here.
    plus+, plus+ = win:

  48. #48
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    Ive been having the same turkey warble with my 11' Avid Elixer 5s. The worst part is the whole bike vibrates terribly. Ive already tried a new rotor because my old G3 center lock had some play in it. It did nothing and costed me 50 ish at my LBS. They wont help me out with the problem either. Do you think this rotor would get rid of my problems? I need a 180mm so pickings are few and far.
    Shimano RT64 Rotor OE > Sale | Jenson USA Online Bike Shop

    Edit: I have tried everything you guys have mentioned before. This is a last ditch effort before replacing my whole system.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by nvphatty View Post
    To no avail the above had no effect..........however the following did.

    I've done proper burnishing of pads to no avail, tried yet a 2nd set with proper bedding in but sadly no better.....UNTIL the zip-tie mod on magura storm SL discs, i installed 3 smallish ties spanning 2 spokes each on the front and the instant reduction in warbble / squeal was significant to the point i can accept what little remains. I also installed 1 zip on the rear spanning 3 spokes and it too was instantaneous as though a damper of sorts was added (actually was).
    Overall my feeling about this is perhaps the magura disc spokes are too thin width wise in their effort to shave weight, hhmm maybe, maybe not but perhaps an mech engineer can expound on such if there's one here.
    UPDATE: the zip-tie method work briefly but the squall returned as before so i have now installed a pr of EBC organics and followed the break in method but again the turkey came howling back at me...FAWK!!
    plus+, plus+ = win:

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