• 01-22-2013
    Pau11y
    Disc pad grease on Avid for turkey warbble?
    I was listening to Car Talk on NPR a couple of wknds about and Click and Clack mentioned brake pad grease to reduce squealing. They went thru a long dissertation as to why/how squealing comes from the pad/piston interface in the caliper (at least in cars). Just curious if anyone has tried this to fix the horrendous Avid noises?

    For those of you thinking I'm insane to apply grease to disc brakes (goes between disc pad backing and piston): CRC Industries 5359 - Brake Caliper Synthetic Grease | O'Reilly Auto Parts
  • 01-22-2013
    jtorlando25
    I do not htink it would help. I'm an avid (pun intended) believer that the Avid rotors are junk and are just never true which causes the turkey calls. I'm riding Elixir 7s that came stock on my bike and hate them with a passion. My front rotor is the noiser of the 2 and it comes out of true no matter how much special attention I give it to keep it straight. The same goes for the rear rotor though it doesn't make as much noise.

    In the past, I changed the brake setup on my hardtail from Avid BB7s to Hayes and the Hayes rotors are thicker and stay true and do not make constant noise like the Avid rotors. Avid brakes are horrible.
  • 01-22-2013
    likeaboss
    I am also not a fan of Avid. I had Elixir 5s on mine and my wife's bike and swapped them out for some Shimanos. But we kept the rotors and all is well now. Not sure the problem is always the rotor.

    To the OP. Try the grease. It may help. I used CRC Disk Brake Quiet and it did not help. It definitely works on cars.
  • 01-22-2013
    goodmojo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jtorlando25 View Post
    I do not htink it would help. I'm an avid (pun intended) believer that the Avid rotors are junk and are just never true which causes the turkey calls. I'm riding Elixir 7s that came stock on my bike and hate them with a passion. My front rotor is the noiser of the 2 and it comes out of true no matter how much special attention I give it to keep it straight. The same goes for the rear rotor though it doesn't make as much noise.

    In the past, I changed the brake setup on my hardtail from Avid BB7s to Hayes and the Hayes rotors are thicker and stay true and do not make constant noise like the Avid rotors. Avid brakes are horrible.

    I dont think this is the case. I changed my elixir 5s to XTs but kept the avid rotors and no noise.

    To answer the OP question, you should just read the turkey warble mega thread. One thing that does work is CRC brake adhesive.

    I did the following:

    If you havent previously bedded your brakes you can sand your rotors and clean with brake cleaning fluid. Sand your pads as well. You can google how to do this.

    Make sure you bed your brakes - 15-20 slow stops from 10-15mph and then another 15 stops from a higher speed (you google proper bed procedure). Properly bedding your brakes can get you part of the way there to reduce the warble. If you havent bedded your brakes you really need to. It definitely is a pain though, especially since you have been riding with them already so pretty much need to do step 1 (cleaning the pads and rotors). I did do the above but it is possible it wasnt necessary.

    make sure the calipers are centered on the rotor (google for how to align calipers). I do it by loosening the bolts, squeezing the levers, then tightening by alternating between bolts. Then loosening one and aligning by eye, then tightening it gently, then loosening the other and aligning by eye. Shining light through helps. Spin the wheel to see if the rotor is true or making contact with the pads.

    Remove brake pads and apply CRC brake adhesive to the back of the pads and where the pad contacts the spring. Do not touch the pad brake surface with your fingers. Ideally you would wear nitrile gloves.

    I had terrible problems with brake noise but after I did this they were quiet. I started having problems with mushy levers so I bled them. The bleed wasnt that great so I ordered XTs. While waiting I bled again and was more careful and I was getting full power. Since I already bought the XTs I just decided to keep them and sell the elixir 5s but I was able to get them to be quiet and have full power.
  • 01-22-2013
    Pau11y
    Some clarification...
    I don't have the turkey warble on any of my Avid brakes, and I (still) have a set of Juicy 7, 3 sets of Elixir CR/2010 Code, and 2011 Codes. The only sound I get out of my Avid is the very high pitch squeal, which I think what you guys call CRC may help. I don't know if any one else mounts their rotors like I do, but...with the torx bolts in but not tightened, I twist the rotor into the rotor bolts before I snug them up on every wheel. I don't know if this is why I don't get the warbles tho.

    The suggestion on the CRC was something I had gleaned from Car Talk. Anyway, it was a curiosity/attempt at a solution for those with the warble problem. But according to likeaboss, no dice...

    Edit: I will go and check out that warble mega-thread tho...seems that it's a defacto thing w/ Avids, and I'm the outlier.
  • 01-22-2013
    shiggy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    I don't have the turkey warble on any of my Avid brakes, and I (still) have a set of Juicy 7, 3 sets of Elixir CR/2010 Code, and 2011 Codes. The only sound I get out of my Avid is the very high pitch squeal, which I think what you guys call CRC may help. I don't know if any one else mounts their rotors like I do, but...with the torx bolts in but not tightened, I twist the rotor into the rotor bolts before I snug them up on every wheel. I don't know if this is why I don't get the warbles tho.

    The suggestion on the CRC was something I had gleaned from Car Talk. Anyway, it was a curiosity/attempt at a solution for those with the warble problem. But according to likeaboss, no dice...

    Edit: I will go and check out that warble mega-thread tho...seems that it's a defacto thing w/ Avids, and I'm the outlier.

    I have been using Avid disc brakes since 2000 and still do not know what the "turkey warble" is. Mostly with Avid rotors and a couple of other brands.

    They do make some noise from time to time, but never for very long, and if the squeal is consistent a quick realignment/pad adjustment fixes it.

    I would never put anything on the pads for any reason.
  • 01-22-2013
    Pau11y
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    I have been using Avid disc brakes since 2000 and still do not know what the "turkey warble" is. Mostly with Avid rotors and a couple of other brands.

    They do make some noise from time to time, but never for very long, and if the squeal is consistent a quick realignment/pad adjustment fixes it.

    I would never put anything on the pads for any reason.

    Shiggy, no...
    The CRC stuff goes between the pad's backing plate and the piston surface. It doesn't go on the pad to rotor surface. During braking, you can reach a situation where the pad moves against the piston surface at a resonance frequency and create vibration/sound and thus the squeal. CRC, or what I called grease, is like a damping agent to get that movement out of resonance and thus cut noise. And, resonance can occur at several frequencies/harmonics...
  • 01-23-2013
    shiggy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    Shiggy, no...
    The CRC stuff goes between the pad's backing plate and the piston surface. It doesn't go on the pad to rotor surface. During braking, you can reach a situation where the pad moves against the piston surface at a resonance frequency and create vibration/sound and thus the squeal. CRC, or what I called grease, is like a damping agent to get that movement out of resonance and thus cut noise. And, resonance can occur at several frequencies/harmonics...

    I know what you meant.
    The backing plate is still part of the pad. There is so little space in a bicycle caliper compared to an automotive brake I would never add anything to the inside of the caliper that could easily migrate to places it should not be. Just asking for trouble.

    I have never had a big issue with noise or vibration that could not be solved by simply adjusting the brake.
  • 01-23-2013
    eatdrinkride
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by shiggy View Post

    I have never had a big issue with noise or vibration that could not be solved by simply adjusting the brake.

    Either you're a mad genius or 10 thousand other Avid users are incomprehensibly inept. :)
  • 01-23-2013
    Pau11y
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by eatdrinkride View Post
    ...or 10 thousand other Avid users are incomprehensibly inept. :)

    I'd pick this one if it was a pop quiz :D
  • 01-23-2013
    Pau11y
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    ...I would never add anything to the inside of the caliper that could easily migrate to places it should not be. Just asking for trouble.

    Yeah, you're not slathering it on there like cream cheese on a bagel... I'm pretty certain a thin film of it will be all that's required...but hey, only my conjecture. However, from experiences w/ anti-seize compound...
  • 01-23-2013
    thecanoe
    Toyota supplies a copper-based high temperature grease to be applied to the back of the brake pads. It acts as a noise dampener. My Avids CR's occasionally turkey wabble, but , organic pads have made it tolerable.
    Turkey wabble and brake squeal I consider two different things.
    By the way , Ray, from the Good News Garage, is a friend of mine. I'm not sure if he is Click or Clack.
  • 01-23-2013
    Bike Whisperer
    Replace sintered pads with semi-metallic or organic...worked on every Avid disc brake set I've owned including Juicy, Elixir, and BB7
  • 01-23-2013
    Pau11y
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Bike Whisperer View Post
    Replace sintered pads with semi-metallic or organic...worked on every Avid disc brake set I've owned including Juicy, Elixir, and BB7

    I'm assuming you're talking about those Disco Brake pads? How are those for longevity and grabbyness? I just threw down on an order for 4 sets of Codes and 4 sets of Elixir semi-metallics...I run this combo pretty much exclusively for frt and rr, respectively w/ Elixir CR levers. TIA BW.
  • 01-23-2013
    Bike Whisperer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Pau11y View Post
    I'm assuming you're talking about those Disco Brake pads? How are those for longevity and grabbyness? I just threw down on an order for 4 sets of Codes and 4 sets of Elixir semi-metallics...I run this combo pretty much exclusively for frt and rr, respectively w/ Elixir CR levers. TIA BW.

    I've found the Alligator Semi-Metallic pads last well even in the wet and muddy PNW, no issues at all with durability. Sure they don't last as long as sintered pads but they last a winter of weekend warrior rides. The bite is good for XC/Trail riding with minimal fade.

    Alligator organic pads work great for dry XC rides but do wear pretty quick in wet and muddy riding and also fade on long descents.

    I have a box full of sintered Avid pads, simply don't use them as they all squeal no matter how much cleaning, burning in, and alignment I do.
  • 01-23-2013
    Pau11y
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Bike Whisperer View Post
    I've found the Alligator Semi-Metallic pads last well even in the wet and muddy PNW, no issues at all with durability. Sure they don't last as long as sintered pads but they last a winter of weekend warrior rides. The bite is good for XC/Trail riding with minimal fade.

    Alligator organic pads work great for dry XC rides but do wear pretty quick in wet and muddy riding and also fade on long descents.

    I have a box full of sintered Avid pads, simply don't use them as they all squeal no matter how much cleaning, burning in, and alignment I do.

    Cool thanks! I hope I can get a full season out of a set since I'm in the land of dust and sunshine :)
  • 01-23-2013
    Tim22
    tried the grease. didn't do squat. put on Alligator Serration rotors, no problems for six months, and 2 sets of pads. (kool stop pads) Avid Elixer 5sl
  • 01-24-2013
    TTTURNER
    Everything is important in disc brakes. Like has been said, you first have to get them on straight. Sometimes it takes a while to get them right. Also, you can often get away with not bedding in your pads if you also have straight rotors and organic pads, but it doesn't hurt to go through the process. Once I know I have a straight rotor and the brakes are installed properly, I don't bother bedding in the second or third set of pads. Just go ride. The pad material is already on the rotor. I have owned every model of Avid rotors and it seems like every other one is not straight. The straight ones are usually quiet and the crooked ones usually suck, no matter what brakes you run them on.

    The Alligator Windcutter rotors are cheap rotors that I have had very good luck with being true out of the package, but the minimal surface area means they fade much quicker. These may be a good solution if you don't ride long and steep trails. Run a thicker and heavier rotor that has more of a reputation for being true, like the Hayes or Shimano, if weight doesn't matter.
  • 01-24-2013
    Hoban
    Since the Avid pads are bolted in (not floating with springs) automotive disc brake "quiet" won't help. i believe the howl is a resonation in certain rotors.
  • 01-25-2013
    dirtyjack
    Tried the grease on my XX's, didn't do a thing for the gobble. Fixed it permanently by replacing them with a set of MT8's
  • 01-25-2013
    shiggy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TTTURNER View Post
    Everything is important in disc brakes. Like has been said, you first have to get them on straight. Sometimes it takes a while to get them right. Also, you can often get away with not bedding in your pads if you also have straight rotors and organic pads, but it doesn't hurt to go through the process. Once I know I have a straight rotor and the brakes are installed properly, I don't bother bedding in the second or third set of pads. Just go ride. The pad material is already on the rotor. I have owned every model of Avid rotors and it seems like every other one is not straight. The straight ones are usually quiet and the crooked ones usually suck, no matter what brakes you run them on.

    The Alligator Windcutter rotors are cheap rotors that I have had very good luck with being true out of the package, but the minimal surface area means they fade much quicker. These may be a good solution if you don't ride long and steep trails. Run a thicker and heavier rotor that has more of a reputation for being true, like the Hayes or Shimano, if weight doesn't matter.

    So you true the rotors. Simple to do.

    And I hate organic pads. No power. Terrible in the wet. EBC Golds are wonderful.

    My favorite pads and rotors are no longer made, though (Galfer).
  • 01-25-2013
    shiggy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hoban View Post
    Since the Avid pads are bolted in (not floating with springs) automotive disc brake "quiet" won't help. i believe the howl is a resonation in certain rotors.

    My pads do not bolt in.
  • 01-25-2013
    Pau11y
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    My pads do not bolt in.

    +1
    I think he's talking about that retaining/guide pin... The pads have so much play on that pin, I wouldn't consider the pads "bolted in" in any arena.

    Anyway, will update w/ how the semi-metallic Disco Brakes pads do in the 2011 Code and Elixir calipers soon. Having some issues w/ pulsing of the Codes w/ 50% pads left on a brand new G3 rotor.

    Slightly OT: I also have a set of M988s... Is it me or do those brakes feel too light on the lever pull and never really bottom on the pads...almost to the point of feeling...cheap...for a lack of a better descript...like those BB7s, but w/o the heavy spring resistance? I have them on Goodridge hoses too! On the Avid Elixir/Codes, the front and rear feels identical once I swapped them to Goodridge hoses. But there is a HUGE difference in feel between the frt and rr w/ the M988s. Anyway, got a M820 caliper coming for the front and I'll stick a new set of pads in the rear to get a better baseline of how things should be. In case ppl think I have air in the system, I used the Avid bleed method on these M988s...where you pull a vacuum. The system doesn't have trapped air.
  • 01-25-2013
    TTTURNER
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    So you true the rotors. Simple to do.

    And I hate organic pads. No power. Terrible in the wet. EBC Golds are wonderful.

    My favorite pads and rotors are no longer made, though (Galfer).

    I shouldn't have to true my new rotors. Besides, my Avid rotors have always wanted to creep back towards their original shape after a few rides. I don't know if that is the norm, but it gets old. Sintered pads make a lot more noise in the dusty desert where I live and I like the softer feel. EBC pads are good.
  • 01-25-2013
    Pau11y
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tim22 View Post
    tried the grease. didn't do squat.

    Gotcha. Thanks.