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  1. #1
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    brakes that rub less than hayes?

    is it just me? or are hayes hydraulic discs especially prone to rubbing. i can get the adjusted for a little while, but then they eventually start doing it again. grrrrrrr. it seems that the pistons don't retract very far, and to make matters worse, they don't retract very evenly. i'm thinking about getting something else that sucks less. any ideas? it seems like the hope brakes i've seen retract much further, which should make them less prone to rubbing. anyone had rubbing problems with hope?

    -mark
    mark weaver
    kuna, id

  2. #2
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    I'm new to disc brakes but...

    Quote Originally Posted by velosapiens
    is it just me? or are hayes hydraulic discs especially prone to rubbing. i can get the adjusted for a little while, but then they eventually start doing it again. grrrrrrr. it seems that the pistons don't retract very far, and to make matters worse, they don't retract very evenly. i'm thinking about getting something else that sucks less. any ideas? it seems like the hope brakes i've seen retract much further, which should make them less prone to rubbing. anyone had rubbing problems with hope?

    -mark
    With what I've read and hear of, Avid Mechs seem to be close to maintenance free. I just put one on my front wheel and so far i really like it.

  3. #3
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    it's maintenance - or lack of maintenance

    the reason your pads drag is only one of three things:

    (1) your caliper is fouled

    (2) your pistons and their seals are dirty, making the pistons stick instead of retract

    (3) your rotors keep getting bent --or-- your rotor already is bent and you don't realize it

    it's nothing to do with Hayes or Hope or Avid.

  4. #4
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    wtf?

    Quote Originally Posted by gonzostrike
    the reason your pads drag is only one of three things:

    (1) your caliper is fouled
    (2) your pistons and their seals are dirty, making the pistons stick instead of retract

    (3) your rotors keep getting bent --or-- your rotor already is bent and you don't realize it

    it's nothing to do with Hayes or Hope or Avid.

    1) you shouldn't have calipers fouling (what the hell does fouling got to do with brakes?)

    2) that's why there called seals *** they supposed to keep dirt out ***

    3) rotors warp, not bend (unless you crash),and good one's don't

    4) It has everything to do with the manufacturers (engineering and quality control)

    5) I can't believe that these guys can't figuire this stuff out...cripes!! disc brakes have been around for years!!

    6) this would be totally unacceptable anywhere else! (brakes should be reliable as a hammer)

    anyway my .02

  5. #5
    Daniel the Dog
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    I kind of agree....

    Quote Originally Posted by magpie
    1) you shouldn't have calipers fouling (what the hell does fouling got to do with brakes?)

    2) that's why there called seals *** they supposed to keep dirt out ***

    3) rotors warp, not bend (unless you crash),and good one's don't

    4) It has everything to do with the manufacturers (engineering and quality control)

    5) I can't believe that these guys can't figuire this stuff out...cripes!! disc brakes have been around for years!!

    6) this would be totally unacceptable anywhere else! (brakes should be reliable as a hammer)

    anyway my .02
    First, calipers get bad on some brands and need to be rebuilt. Hayes are famous for that. They just wear out.

    Second, all brands now a days don't rub when everything is right. Hayes are known to come from the factory with warped calipers.

    Third, I agree that disc brakes should work well ;however, they do have problems because they are built to be both light and strong. A bit of a oxmoron in many cases.

    Fourth, dirt does get under seals. Dirt gets into sealed hubs, bottom brackets, etc. Usually some maintenance will clean them up.

    It just isn't that easy. Crap happens. Hayes rule despite their issues. My Hayes don't rub unless they get some muck between the pads and rotors: leaves, water, dirt, etc.

    Jaybo

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by velosapiens
    is it just me? or are hayes hydraulic discs especially prone to rubbing. i can get the adjusted for a little while, but then they eventually start doing it again. grrrrrrr. it seems that the pistons don't retract very far, and to make matters worse, they don't retract very evenly. i'm thinking about getting something else that sucks less. any ideas? it seems like the hope brakes i've seen retract much further, which should make them less prone to rubbing. anyone had rubbing problems with hope?
    What Hayes are you using? The new G2 calipers are a lot easier to deal with. When's the last time the system was bled?

    If want an easy-to-work-with brake, get Deore hydros. They're a bit harder to bleed then hayes, but they never seem to rub, when set up correctly.

  7. #7
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    what gonzo says and

    don't let fear hold you back from reading the Brake FAQ in the upper right. these aren't car brakes, they are lightweight bike brakes; as such, they are prone to all sorts of failures if you simply ride and ignore them.

    Jim

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzostrike
    the reason your pads drag is only one of three things:

    (1) your caliper is fouled

    (2) your pistons and their seals are dirty, making the pistons stick instead of retract

    (3) your rotors keep getting bent --or-- your rotor already is bent and you don't realize it

    it's nothing to do with Hayes or Hope or Avid.
    well, i have 2 pairs of hayes hydros (1 brand new), and both of them behave exactly the same. if you ask me, having such a tiny amount of clearance when the pads are retracted is just asking for trouble. i would happily trade an extra 1/2" of lever travel for some more clearance. my older bike (1 1/2 yr old hardtail) has had zero drivetrain maintenance or adjustment (except for routine scrub of the chain while still on the bike). yet it still shifts perfectly. on the other hand, i've had to screw with the brakes pretty much constantly since i bought the bike. no excuse for that.

    so, you guys that like hayes brakes, anyone want to buy some? 1 set fairly well used, but works like new (in other words, they rub sometimes). the othe set has only been on 4-5 rides.

    and thanks for the suggestion jim, but the brake faq (which i read thoroughly) doesn't seem to address differences in pad clearance. maybe i'm just finickier than most people. most hayes brakes i've seen on new bikes in shops are either rubbing, or exceedingly close on one side. as far as i'm concerned, a xc brake should never rub unless the rotor gets bent or warped significantly.

    mw
    mark weaver
    kuna, id

  9. #9
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    yep I agree

    I've only had one set of Hayes and didn't like them, sold the bike with them. Many do like them, I'm not one. I never had any clearance probs though, don't know why.

    I have used Louise, Gustav (2 sets) Hope M4, Hayes (ptui) comps, Shimano 525's, and my wife runs Shimano mechanicals. Other than the occasional warp I've fixed with the old crescent wrench, never any clearance problems. Even the Gustav which has drag built into the design didn't drag at all on the front of my Super T. fork. It did a bit in the back.

    All this rambling means nothing though if you don't like them, I hope you can find a set of brakes that works for you.

    Jim MCM #11

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimC.
    I've only had one set of Hayes and didn't like them, sold the bike with them. Many do like them, I'm not one. I never had any clearance probs though, don't know why.

    I have used Louise, Gustav (2 sets) Hope M4, Hayes (ptui) comps, Shimano 525's, and my wife runs Shimano mechanicals. Other than the occasional warp I've fixed with the old crescent wrench, never any clearance problems. Even the Gustav which has drag built into the design didn't drag at all on the front of my Super T. fork. It did a bit in the back.

    All this rambling means nothing though if you don't like them, I hope you can find a set of brakes that works for you.

    Jim MCM #11
    From what i read on here Hayes seem to be a pain in the a$$, too much money and trouble to maintain. Hell car brakes arent even that hard to maintain. I know from readin, I wont get any Hydro discs for sure. But then I said I would never get disc brakes at allm and I have them now.

  11. #11
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    A few words:

    Hayes aren't really that hard.....

    If you "screw with something constantly" you're proabably not doing it right.

    Always push the pistons back in when adjusting caliper position.

    Oh yeah, get a good shop to face your brake tabs.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by singletrack
    If you "screw with something constantly" you're proabably not doing it right.
    well, SOMEONE's not doing it right. i'd say it's hayes. so i solved my problem for the time being by buying some avid mechanical brakes. piece of cake to install and setup. no rub. consistent retraction. and they retract far enough to allow a little more tolerance than the hayes. i went for the 185mm rotor in front. i only got to ride around in the dirt for 1/2 hr or so, so it's hard to make a real judgement since they aren't broken in. they're slightly less powerful right now, more noticeable on the back (duh), but they're plenty powerful enough, and they are easier for me to modulate than the hayes because the lever travel seems to translate more directly into pad pressure, which probably just means there's more flex in the system, but whatever, they feel more like brakes to me. and i can adjust the levers however i want. the lack of adjustability in the hayes brakes (only the start position of the lever) was a big downer for me. right now i have some cheap avid levers i took off my 1spd, but when i go back to tahoe to collect the rest of my belongings, i'll put my old xtr levers on there.

    if these work out, i might buy another set for my hardtail. or i might put this set on the hardtail and try something else. anyway, i'm selling my hayes.
    mw
    mark weaver
    kuna, id

  13. #13
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    Come on guys. It's a bleed issue.

    Come on guys, I can't believe none of you have picked the problem yet. Pistons not retracting properly is a bleed issue. Get the air out and they'll retract fine.

    Pistons retracting unevenly means one of them is gunked up. Pump it out and push it back in a few times and it'll come right. A twin piston hydraulic brake doesn't care if the mounts need faced. The pistons are designed to swivel around and plant the pads flat against the rotor even with a little misalignment.

    Jaybo, you don't have a clue about calipers. They don't need rebuilt until the seals leak (just like car brakes). I've had my hayes for almost four years. The rear still has the original pads and hasn't been touched at all in the last 2.5 years.

    Today I even got my front 8" rotor hot enough to make it nice and colourful (brown, purple and blue oxides), no problems at all.

    Some people shouldn't be allowed to work on hydraulic brakes. Unfortunately many of those people are employed by bikeshops.

  14. #14
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    I'm with Dougal on this one.

    Hayes, when properly set up, run maintenance-free for very long periods. My five-year old set on my main bike have needed a couple of pad changes, and I change the fluid every year or so whether it needs it or not. A few times I've had to true the rotor (from hits it's received) but really, nothing else. No caliper overhaul, no centering problems, nothing. My riding friends that run Hayes have all similar experiences. They are just plain reliable.

    Miles
    It's 7:09 California time

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles
    My riding friends that run Hayes have all similar experiences. They are just plain reliable.

    Miles
    It's very easy for a bad mechanic to blame the product. The reality is, the hayes bladder system needs a slightly different approach to bleeding it. If you get it wrong and over/underfill the system or let air into the bladder, then it won't work properly.

    If you know what you're doing, they'll outlive the rest of your bike.

    If anyone needs instructions for bleeding hayes, they're on my site below.

    Dougal.co.nz
    Last edited by Dougal; 04-03-2004 at 02:55 PM. Reason: Forgot hyperlink.

  16. #16
    stickinmyderailer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal
    Come on guys, I can't believe none of you have picked the problem yet. Pistons not retracting properly is a bleed issue. Get the air out and they'll retract fine.

    Pistons retracting unevenly means one of them is gunked up. Pump it out and push it back in a few times and it'll come right. A twin piston hydraulic brake doesn't care if the mounts need faced. The pistons are designed to swivel around and plant the pads flat against the rotor even with a little misalignment.

    Jaybo, you don't have a clue about calipers. They don't need rebuilt until the seals leak (just like car brakes). I've had my hayes for almost four years. The rear still has the original pads and hasn't been touched at all in the last 2.5 years.

    Today I even got my front 8" rotor hot enough to make it nice and colourful (brown, purple and blue oxides), no problems at all.

    Some people shouldn't be allowed to work on hydraulic brakes. Unfortunately many of those people are employed by bikeshops.
    what he said

  17. #17
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    I agree

    The only way to mess Hayes up is operator error. Mine have been running trouble free for two years now with only one fluid change/bleed. It couldn't have been easier. If you take your time and read the instructions you will do fine. Also, using a syringe make the flushing/bleeding process much easier than with the little bottle.

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