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  1. #1
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    BrakeForce One, new player in town

    Don't know if it already got posted, but overhere in Europe, there's a new player in Braketown, BrakeForce One, German durability with super looks and a low weight of 205 gr ( without discs )...
    Higher brake force due to brakeforce multiplier in the caliper.
    Some pics :

    in the box

    2 finger brakelever, everything is injection moulded carbonfibre, contactpoint between discs and brakepads can be set on the brakelever. Closed oilsystem without expansion chamber...

    disc caliper, anodised aluminium, inserts are injection moulded carbonfibre

    possible colours are silver, red, black and orange...


  2. #2
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    And how do they work?

  3. #3
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    And what is a "Brake force multiplier"?

  4. #4
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    Well, they look pretty.

    I'm fairly sure that carbon fibre can't be injection molded though- I mean, the stuff comes in a woven cloth. It looks more like some kind of plastic (not necessarily a bad thing).

  5. #5
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    Magura MT8's have injection moulded carbon fiber parts, so no reason that BrakForce One's parts aren't.

  6. #6
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    its fancy plastic. Calipers look hot.
    Whats this line for?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    And what is a "Brake force multiplier"?
    You see where the hose connects to the caliper... the fitting looks a bit big. I would assume that's a piston pushing on a smaller MC that to create higher pressures on the caliper pistons.

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    I've had the change to test them end they do work and with only one finger required...
    A little explanation, the brake multiplier is a special, patented system where the special valve does its work...


    When first pressing the lever, the valve stays closed and the brakepads are moved against the discs...

    When making contact with the disc, the valve opens and the brakforce is doubled...( simply put )

    U need 5 minutes to get used to the short brakelever, U no longer have irritating noises of the pads rubbing against the discs, since the contact point is adjustable, this makes an easy compensation, if necessary, should the oil expand due to the temperature... but the most demanding situations have been tested and the difference would only be a fraction of a mm in brakepad movement...
    Hope U guys understand what I'm trying to explain...

    There is nothing plastic about it, all the non anodised black parts on the brakes ( except the hoses ) are carbonfibre. They use mineral oil. And U should certainly compare the BrakeForce One to the Magura MT8 brakes...
    I should know, I import the stuff into Belgium

  9. #9
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    Is there a U.S. distributor?

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    not to my knowledge, lot's of other distributors have already signed in... even up to Thailand,...
    for those interested, as long as there is no distributor for the US, I could ship overseas...
    First batch is coming in next week...

  11. #11
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    is there a review about them? anything to compare too? and what is the cost?

  12. #12
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    Serious question, if it's a closed system how does it deal with heat build up on really long downhills (as in 20min + continuous descent). I had a set of closed systems brake way back in the early 2000s and they were hateful things, binding up at high temps.

    They'll have convince people they're better than open systems to take off. Although I hope they becausethose things are beautifully made, those carbon moulded levers look great.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimc101 View Post
    Magura MT8's have injection moulded carbon fiber parts, so no reason that BrakForce One's parts aren't.
    Again- how can you injection mold CF? It comes in a woven cloth.

    The photos look more like injection molded plastic, maybe it has short strands of reinforcing fibres in it but it doesn't look like a pure CF part.

    Edit: Just having Googled around for this product, it does appear that it's a CF reinforced plastic. I suspect the OP just had a translation hiccup when doing his writeup.

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    ^ injection molding of carbon fiber is a popular process. It's basically using a carbon fiber slurry in molds instead of injection molded plastic. Don't be confused just because it doesn't have the visual of a 3K weave...

    These brakes look very interesting. I'd love to try a set out.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by womble View Post
    Again- how can you injection mold CF? It comes in a woven cloth.
    You can get CF as raw fibres and as 'bulk' fibres (think smashed spaghetti) as well, my bet is that they're made of the latter injection moulded with resin.

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    Prices are stiff, market price of MT8 in EU is around 525-550 EUR
    BFO's are going for +/- 800 EUR a set (discs included) for the wealthy bikers there is even a lighter (or is it the wallet that gets even lighter) tuned version from Tune is going for 900-ish without nothing, no discs no adapter.

    Even if they are good, there is something like a brain up there saying too much is simply too much.
    Not for me.

  17. #17
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    For that price it's definitely look cheesy, and 205g without rotor is not that light many current brake at half the price is in that weight range. Hopefully, the street price will be much lower.

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    Not sure what the issue with prices is (yes they are expensive), they are premium German products, you will pay similar for Acros or Tune parts or any other Made in Germany product Magura's aren't cheap.

    When the prototypes came out back in September, the covererage was positive at the time

  19. #19
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    OK, so a caliper with an additional master cylinder piston (that in itself looks like it borrowed an idea from the Prime), and a brake whose bite point will change as the brake heats up and cools down (stated in post #10 in this thread) as it doesn't have a reservoir, and a price that makes Hope look affordable. I'm not normally a negative Ned, but nooooo thanks. Heck, even the original Hopes had at least a manually adjustable reservoir on em. I foresee this going the way the Brembo MTB brake did....
    You are not what you own.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimc101 View Post
    Not sure what the issue with prices is (yes they are expensive), they are premium German products, you will pay similar for Acros or Tune parts or any other Made in Germany product Magura's aren't cheap.

    When the prototypes came out back in September, the covererage was positive at the time
    Does anyone pay SRP for maguras? Or even half? I have 4 sets of Louises, I think I paid $220 for the most expensive set, all bought new.
    I guess euro prices also include the ridiculous VAT.


    I don't know... a closed/non reservoir disc... I suppose that's fine, so long as you aren't actually braking for more than a couple seconds at a time. There is probably a reason all the closed discs disappeared from the market a while ago
    Sounds like the target audience is people that like hanging bikes on scales, but don't actually ride. Yeah, sure, there is a forum for them on here.. On the other hand, MT8s weigh about the same (or even a couple grams less claimed) and cost about 1/3. Maybe US street prices will be more reasonable.

  21. #21
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    Has anyone told Magura that this company has used 90% of their design language ? Is this really legal in germany ? Or is Magura invested in this company ?

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    Magura also sells their injection moulding technology expertise and produce for other parties !!

    Have no idea in this case who is producing for BFO but it is a known fact, it is a german company with knowledge in carbon moulding.

    On the other hand, Magura is maybe also a buyer/user of other german expertise.

    PS : BFO resides <50 km from Magura Injection Moulding Dept

  23. #23
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    Quick video of the brakes on a bike - Brake Force One - Tune Video - Pinkbike.com

    EDIT: actually, there are a few better quality (official) vids on Vimeo as well if you google them.
    Last edited by R+P+K; 12-23-2011 at 04:08 PM. Reason: Added text

  24. #24
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    well, the problem with the heat is not really an issue, due to the special valve it's possible to have a bigger initial gap between brakepads and disc in comparison with other brakes, and thanks to the bigger diameter of the oil channels, the oil displacement due to extreme temperature will only have a very limited brakepad displacement ( test showed only 0.3 mm decrease in brakepad distance in the worst case ) .... and even if the gap is to small and there would be friction due to the temperature, U can easily increase that gap with a fraction to compensate for heat influences...
    there are already test reports of different European magazines, like German " Bike Magazin" , but as up to now not yet in English...

  25. #25
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    Anyone have these? I'm looking for opinions on the performance.

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    I have them on two bikes, but since I'm the Belgian importer my opinion is a little biased...
    They had some problems in the beginning, mainly due to a bad brakepad compound, but that's sorted aswell now.
    I have a couple of competition riders that use them and they compare the brakeforce with the most powerful brakesystems available, but with BFO brakes U can generate the same force with only 1 finger without any problems, U really have way more pad clearance compared to all the other brands.
    All that for a low weight and in my opinion, super looks...
    Will be glad to answer all your questions...
    hip-c.be - Home

  27. #27
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    1) Are the calipers designed to handle sintered metal pads? What I mean by that is the fluid insulated from the massive heat transfer that sintered metal pads generate which can boil the fluid in the caliper.
    Reason I ask is that I like sintered metal pads for many reasons and would like to be able to run them. Certainly a big decision point for me.

    2) From a power and heat dissipation standpoint how do these brakes compare to a DH brake like a Shimano Saint or a Hope V2? Again, another decision point for me as I heat soak the snot out of brakes.

    3) Cost of replacement brake pads? They are new so I would imagine there is no aftermarket availability just yet so the OEM pad replacement cost is a factor for now.

    If you have some side by side tests that show they are better than the current DH brakes and can run sintered pads I am certainly interested.

  28. #28
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    huh, i forgot to keep my eyes open for these guys....have not really seen a lot of their product out (in north america) yet. Looks like a decent product.....

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    Heat dissipation isn't a problem if U see what kind of tests they have performed, due to the oil channels having a bigger diameter then other brakesystems and the fact that U can easily adjust the brake point while riding...
    World of mountainbiking, a German magazine, performed a big test of different brakesystems, including the V2 and many others and the BFO brake was the most powerful brake they tested. They tested in laboratory, but also a 2,4 km steep decent on asphalt, braking at different speeds and measuring the deceleration rate and handpower needed to achieve that deceleration. BFO was the leader with the lowest amount of handpower needed to get the biggest deceleration.
    O2 bikers in Belgium just performed a testride and logterm test and they found the brakes to be the most powerful, but also most progressive ( inexpected ) system they have tested upto this moment. They said it was a perfect brake system for the demanding endurorider looking for a powerful brake and exclusivity.
    Negative points that come up are the price and that U really need to take some time to adapt to the different brakefeeling compared to other brakes, this brake does not give U an ON/OFF feeling when U pull the lever, U can easily go in steep decents without running out of stopping power, if U want more, just pull a little bit harder on the lever...
    Some people need some getting used to the one-finger brake lever aswell, as did I...
    For people interested in trying them out, they can be delivered to the US for about 600 euros, discs included...

    Sintered pads are not available at BFO but since the pads are the same model as Magura Marta , there is plenty availability from other brands like BBB, Swisstop, EBC...

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    the sintered pads are no problem , BrakeForceOne told me today.
    I have different testfiles, but they are pdf files, if anyone knows how to get them on here , while still being readabel please let me know, or I'll email the pdf's ...

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianaprilia View Post
    ..
    For people interested in trying them out, they can be delivered to the US for about 600 euros, discs included...
    ..
    Holy carp, 600 Euros is a whole bunch of Canadian dollars - This makes the new Maguras look cheap in comparison!

    Not sure that is a "try em out and see" kinda price

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    understand your opinion, but normal price for a set of BFO brakes is 780 euro without discs and shipping... compared to that price, the price I mentioned is a sweeter deal...

  33. #33
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    How do they compensate for brake pad wear?

    Another adjustment you have to make yourself?

    The booster idea is brilliant, though.
    Check my Site

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    brake pad wear is easily compensated (manually ) by turning the little wheel on the brake lever, when U put in new pads, u just turn it completely back in the other direction.
    since it's a closed system when u turn on the little screw on the lever, U push the brake pads inward or pull them outward. The pistons are magnetic and pull the pads out...

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianaprilia View Post
    understand your opinion, but normal price for a set of BFO brakes is 780 euro without discs and shipping... compared to that price, the price I mentioned is a sweeter deal...
    Such a shame - with pricing like that they are going to have the same fate that brembo did when they "attempted" to enter the market with similar priced product.

    Edit - oops, someone already made the brembo comment back in December.....my bad

    If anyone has a set of these up here in Whistler I will buy you a beer if you let me take a look at em closeup (two beer for a parking lot test ride lol)

  36. #36
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    I'm not sure why there's a reason to be impressed with this. The "Brake force multiplier" might be new to bicycle brakes but it's certainly not new to hydraulic systems or brakes generally. It's also not clear that it offers anything that servo-wave doesn't as they both vary the leverage. Absent that, these brakes seem overly expensive, not particularly light, and not self-adjusting. The light effort seems nice, but too light is not desirable anyway.

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    to revive the thread...
    Are there already some people over in the US that have tried them or not?
    Discussions are easy, but trying them out is the only way...
    If there are some people interested to do so, sent me a private message, I m willing to make a very special deal...

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianaprilia View Post

    Heat dissipation isn't a problem if U see what kind of tests they have performed, due to the oil channels having a bigger diameter then other brakesystems and the fact that U can easily adjust the brake point while riding...
    World of mountainbiking, a German magazine, performed a big test of different brakesystems, including the V2 and many others and the BFO brake was the most powerful brake they tested. They tested in laboratory, but also a 2,4 km steep decent on asphalt, braking at different speeds and measuring the deceleration rate and handpower needed to achieve that deceleration. BFO was the leader with the lowest amount of handpower needed to get the biggest deceleration.
    O2 bikers in Belgium just performed a testride and logterm test and they found the brakes to be the most powerful, but also most progressive ( inexpected ) system they have tested upto this moment. They said it was a perfect brake system for the demanding endurorider looking for a powerful brake and exclusivity.
    Negative points that come up are the price and that U really need to take some time to adapt to the different brakefeeling compared to other brakes, this brake does not give U an ON/OFF feeling when U pull the lever, U can easily go in steep decents without running out of stopping power, if U want more, just pull a little bit harder on the lever...
    Some people need some getting used to the one-finger brake lever aswell, as did I...
    For people interested in trying them out, they can be delivered to the US for about 600 euros, discs included...

    Sintered pads are not available at BFO but since the pads are the same model as Magura Marta , there is plenty availability from other brands like BBB, Swisstop, EBC...
    Do you have any English links to back this up? I for one would like to see some reviews on your claims. Seems like the price is very high for something that has yet to be proved. If I am going to buy something like this, at this price, you better be sure I want proof that it is as claimed.

  39. #39
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    If you read german, will be easier to make up your mind.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MirFlash View Post
    If you read german, will be easier to make up your mind.
    What does that have to do with anything, and why did you send me a private message bragging about these brakes?
    I don't like spam, so don't spam the forums and people's e-mails with this stuff.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by MirFlash View Post
    If you read german, will be easier to make up your mind.
    True. So true. If anyone reads German, it's always easier to make up their mind.
    One time I was in line at a fast food restaurant and was having a hard time deciding what I wanted to eat. I kept letting people pass me because I was so cornfused. Luckily they had a German menu. One glance and my mind was made up. Silly English menu, so hard to understand and make up one's mind. Whew!

  42. #42
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    As for the german part : Brakeforce One - MTB-News.de | IBC Mountainbike Forum

    32 pages BFO related, enjoy

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    would love to have a set, but the price is a bit steep..

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by the-one1 View Post
    True. So true. If anyone reads German, it's always easier to make up their mind.
    One time I was in line at a fast food restaurant and was having a hard time deciding what I wanted to eat. I kept letting people pass me because I was so cornfused. Luckily they had a German menu. One glance and my mind was made up. Silly English menu, so hard to understand and make up one's mind. Whew!
    Dude that was funny.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by MirFlash View Post
    As for the german part : Brakeforce One - MTB-News.de | IBC Mountainbike Forum

    32 pages BFO related, enjoy
    This is a pretty comical read with google translate.

    Based on what's been stated above - particularly about a) one finger braking, b) power and c) modulation - I fail to see what this system has to offer above and beyond other products from Hope, Formula and hell, even Shimano now.

    Other than a $700 price tag of course . . . for that much, I can get a set of Hope's and have enough left for a good time at the strip club.
    Alcohol may lead nowhere, but it sure is the scenic route!

  46. #46
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    Ok, now I am pissed!
    To MirFlash. I have asked you not to message me and not only have you kept messaging me, you don't want to stop, no matter how much I ask you too. What part of "Don't message me anymore" do you not understand??


    You don't seem to want to stop, so maybe doing this in public is the only way to embarrass you enough to make you stop. Please PISS OFF!
    Sorry to all who had to see this. Also is there an ignore feature with this site? Thanks and sorry.

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by mazspeed View Post
    Ok, now I am pissed!
    To MirFlash. I have asked you not to message me and not only have you kept messaging me, you don't want to stop, no matter how much I ask you too. What part of "Don't message me anymore" do you not understand??


    You don't seem to want to stop, so maybe doing this in public is the only way to embarrass you enough to make you stop. Please PISS OFF!
    Sorry to all who had to see this. Also is there an ignore feature with this site? Thanks and sorry.

    Mike
    Report it to the mods that he is harassing you. They will put a stop to it.

  48. #48
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    . . . and there is an ignore function. I know quite certainly there's at least one member here who has me on their "Ignore" list!
    Alcohol may lead nowhere, but it sure is the scenic route!

  49. #49
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    Thanks guys, I will do both. Sorry for the online rant.

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    for the guys that are interested in knowing more or perhaps that are wanting to buy them but found the price to steep, send me a pm, I will gladly help U out and will make U a special price...
    English articles I could find:

    Meet Brake Force One, a German approach to how you stop - Bike Rumor

    Riva Bike Festival 2012: Magura, Brake Force One and Fox

    Have fun reading...

  51. #51
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    I'm not going to lie, I am very, very intrigued for sure. But there is zero chance of my buying these without a live demo. There's just a few things that I'm uncertain about that can only be addressed by trying them out. For me, there's no more important part of a bike than the brakes and if a system works the way I want, I have no problem paying for it. I currently run Hope's and they were not cheap.

    a) the ergonomics of the lever may or may not work for me.

    b) I want to experience first hand this "lever feel" that is so different from traditional systems. All the articles I've read about these say the same thing . . . that it will take time to adjust.

    Before I'd even think of dropping $500 for a set (is it $500 a set or $500 a piece?), I'd need a demo first (unless a free product were available
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    I could not agree more 007

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    finished the Salzkammergut tropy (Race in the Alps) with these brakes.
    On a fatbike ! I love the power and the modulation of these brakes

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    from what I hear, it will still take a while for these brakes to find a US ien mporter...

    The lever feel that most riders are used to is a hard stop when the pads make contact with the discs, pulling further will only bend the brake lever...
    With the BFO brakes U can still pull the lever further, wich will only increase the oilpressure, nothing more, ( at first some describe this as a spungy feeling brake, but there is nothing spungy about the brake power ) but like with other brakes, closed is closed and U are braking hard, there is just no need to pull hard on the lever, or engage a second or more fingers to finnaly stop the bike like on other systems...

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianaprilia View Post
    The lever feel that most riders are used to is a hard stop when the pads make contact with the discs, pulling further will only bend the brake lever...
    With the BFO brakes U can still pull the lever further, wich will only increase the oilpressure, nothing more, ( at first some describe this as a spungy feeling brake, but there is nothing spungy about the brake power ) but like with other brakes, closed is closed and U are braking hard, there is just no need to pull hard on the lever, or engage a second or more fingers to finnaly stop the bike like on other systems...
    Perhaps this is a case of "lost in translation" but your description of how the BFO brakes work is exactly how every other system I have used works (e.g., pulling harder generates more pressure which translates to more braking power. Its called modulation). I've never run a hydraulic brake that makes a hard stop when the pads contact the disc or the brake lever bending. I'm not a fluid engineer, however, I do understand hydraulics and what you describe above about the hard stop is exactly how I would envision a closed system working.
    Alcohol may lead nowhere, but it sure is the scenic route!

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    I was left wanting more details about lever feel as well. I did pick up on a few random remarks here-

    Riva Bike Festival 2012: Magura, Brake Force One and Fox


    The modulation is more like car brakes, contrary to the usual force-dependent modulation as with bicycle discs.

    The modulation is performed by the lever throw and not the finger force…

    Unlike many other testers with whom we talked, we found the path-dependent braking feel is something we need time to get used to.


    Speculative- I think the lever would feel less defined, like trying to identify the exact moment the rotors would make contact on a boost assisted auto and would be perceived as squishy feeling compared to other modern bicycle disc brake offerings.

    I believe I am going to buy a set, nothing ventured-nothing gained. Once I get my hands on these you’re welcome to give em a whirl 007 as I believe we are pretty close in proximity to one another

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    Hey that'd be cool. I'm definitely interested. Keep me posted!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    I believe I am going to buy a set, nothing ventured-nothing gained. Once I get my hands on these you’re welcome to give em a whirl 007 as I believe we are pretty close in proximity to one another
    at this moment there is a set of BFO brakes shipped to Jon, so he'll be the first to give them a try, normally, by the end of the week, he should have them...


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    Well, they're here and installed on my bike. I do intend to post my impressions, but for now here are a couple pics-
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails BrakeForce One, new player in town-bfolever.jpg  

    BrakeForce One, new player in town-bforearcaliper.jpg  


  60. #60
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    How are the ergonomics on the lever so far? How was installation? What's the craftsmanship and finishing like?

    After you've had some time on them, I'd love to take you up on the in-person demo.

    The caliper sure looks great . . . the lever looks uber cheap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OO7 View Post
    How are the ergonomics on the lever so far? How was installation? What's the craftsmanship and finishing like?
    1) I didn’t think I would like the lever shape, but I kinda do, certainly better for me than the Marta SL levers.

    2) The levers would not fit either set of my bars. I had to (carefully) remove a small amount of material to fit them to the contour of my bars, so that sucked. The BFO caliper adapters have a wider cross section that misaligned the caliper in relation to the rotor, my old Avid adapters work perfectly.

    3) Craftsmanship and finishing (other than the adapters) get high marks.

    Quote Originally Posted by OO7 View Post
    After you've had some time on them, I'd love to take you up on the in-person demo.
    Absolutely, I would appreciate another’s opinion of these. I ride every Sunday unless something comes up. I aim to hit Santiago Oaks this coming Sunday. Where do you typically ride?

    Quote Originally Posted by OO7 View Post
    The caliper sure looks great . . . the lever looks uber cheap.
    Your last sentence is an accurate summarization of my overall first hand impression of the BFO‘s.

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    I've had these bled to ensure they function as intended. In use they do supply ample stopping power while applied with reasonably light force with a single digit.

    I do find that heat does tend to draw the pads in closer to the rotors, but not terribly so, just enough to be audible. I have not been on any long, lift assisted downhill runs, but I have hit the brakes hard enough to actually discolor the rear rotor so there was definately some heat.

    I like the overall feel. I imagine some would find them a bit squishy, but to me they offer more brake control as I am less apt to lock up due to how gradual the force can be applied. The power is definately there when needed, but are not at all touchy.

    I like that they use the same pads as Magura Marta's. makes it easy to source replacements and ensures I will be able to do so for the foreseeable future.

    My number one gripe is the lack of pad retraction and lever return. Bleeding did not solve for my having to manualy push the levers back out a bit to fully return the levers and thus retract the brake pads. ianaprilia tells me this is not the case with any he has experienced, but all I can report on is this particular set and my experience. This bothers me a lot as one of the key features of the BFO's according to their site is supposed to be
    ■No more grinding and squeaking brakes as the pads are actively retracted to create a true air gap
    Overall I like the brakes, but they are by no means mind blowing or game changing.

    It will be interesting to get anothers impression of these. 007, your welcome anytime to give these a try.

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    I have been using the BFO's on my old MTB with great satisfaction (using 160/160mm discs). So far, they worked as expected without any problems.

    They will in the near future be installed on my fatbike using 180/180 discs (more weight to be stopped).

    H.D

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    I've had these bled to ensure they function as intended. In use they do supply ample stopping power while applied with reasonably light force with a single digit.

    I do find that heat does tend to draw the pads in closer to the rotors, but not terribly so, just enough to be audible. I have not been on any long, lift assisted downhill runs, but I have hit the brakes hard enough to actually discolor the rear rotor so there was definately some heat.

    I like the overall feel. I imagine some would find them a bit squishy, but to me they offer more brake control as I am less apt to lock up due to how gradual the force can be applied. The power is definately there when needed, but are not at all touchy.

    I like that they use the same pads as Magura Marta's. makes it easy to source replacements and ensures I will be able to do so for the foreseeable future.

    My number one gripe is the lack of pad retraction and lever return. Bleeding did not solve for my having to manualy push the levers back out a bit to fully return the levers and thus retract the brake pads. ianaprilia tells me this is not the case with any he has experienced, but all I can report on is this particular set and my experience. This bothers me a lot as one of the key features of the BFO's according to their site is supposed to be

    Overall I like the brakes, but they are by no means mind blowing or game changing.

    It will be interesting to get anothers impression of these. 007, your welcome anytime to give these a try.
    I've been curious how you're getting on with these . . . interesting that the pads aren't retracting, and I suspect that this is due do the closed nature of the system. I'm also curious how they will react to changes in ambient temperatures. Its been hot lately, so maybe it will be better once it cools down??

    I'm still interested in checking them out. I'm out of commission for like 2 weeks right now though
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    I am not certain if the lack of full pad retraction can be contributed to their being a closed system or even if this is just my particular set of brakes.

    HDTVdevil, do you experience any issues with the brake levers not fully returning on their own?

    From what I understand the calipers are actively retracted through the use of an internal spring, so the fluid should be pushed back through the system.

    One thought that has crossed my mind is that the booster valve will close after pressure is released from the lever, thereby reducing the effective area through which the fluid can return. Seems like this would offer some resistance to the calipers as the springs try to pull the pistons back.

    Well 007, the offer is open when you're ready. I hope the hold up is your bike and not your health.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    I am not certain if the lack of full pad retraction can be contributed to their being a closed system or even if this is just my particular set of brakes.

    HDTVdevil, do you experience any issues with the brake levers not fully returning on their own?

    From what I understand the calipers are actively retracted through the use of an internal spring, so the fluid should be pushed back through the system.

    One thought that has crossed my mind is that the booster valve will close after pressure is released from the lever, thereby reducing the effective area through which the fluid can return. Seems like this would offer some resistance to the calipers as the springs try to pull the pistons back.

    Well 007, the offer is open when you're ready. I hope the hold up is your bike and not your health.
    Yes, levers only come back 90 to 95% of the way but I didn't notice it impacting performance in any way.

    Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

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    Hi Jon,
    I went to Eurobike last friday and spoke to the guys of BFO there, discussing a little bit your issue...
    They said they encountered several complaints of that kind and mostly they where due to wrong setup of the brakelever, either that they are too far out or too far in ( set up with the pad distance set screw and not with the little lever setup screw ), please check if this could be the case, also be sure that when U bleed the brakes, U follow the procedure in the manual, with the pad distance screw completely out, so that the piston that moves in and out of the brake cilinder is flush with the sides of the housing ( this U can do by pushing the brakepads gently out, if they are completely out, the piston should be flush and the set screw of the pad distance should not be loose and touch the piston membrane. Otherwise it could be that U don't have enough oil in the system and this would certainly limit your setup possibilities.
    Perhaps return the tune settings to the begin and check if everything checks out
    Let me know if U understand what I mean, otherwise I ll try to make some pictures to help u...
    greetz

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    I appreciate your advice and willingness to help Ian,

    I paid my local bike shop to perform the bleed and was told he had followed the bleed procedure outlined by the manual to the letter.

    I understand what you are saying about the pad distance set screw. It sounds like some adjust their levers so as to be able to push the lever open enough to disengage the piston actuator rod from the master cylinder piston. On mine pushing the lever open does retract the pads slightly so it is not simply the lever adjustment but the caliper fails to cause the master cylinder piston to fully return. I will double check that the system has adequate fluid volume.

    What I experience is this adjustment changes as the brakes warm and must be backed off due to heat soak and retightened as they cool. I do not see how this can be avoided with this system as there is no mechanism through which to compensate for fluid expansion.

    Did I make an accurate description of how the booster valve reacts as the lever is released? I can't help but think a closed system with a booster valve would benefit from being set up as a recirculating system having a check valve and a dedicated return line to introduce cooler fluid into the caliper with every lever actuation and bypass the booster valve for stronger fluid return line pressure.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    I can't help but think a closed system with a booster valve would benefit from being set up as a recirculating system having a check valve and a dedicated return line to introduce cooler fluid into the caliper with every lever actuation and bypass the booster valve for stronger fluid return line pressure.
    Better yet... make it an open system with a booster (just like any car on the road).
    Check my Site

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    Better yet... make it an open system with a booster (just like any car on the road).
    Actually, I've only ever seen a recirculating set up outfitted for open systems in automotive race applications.

    I'm not against having a lever with a reservoir, I just don't see BFO re-tooling to make it happen and was hoping to devise a way to improve on the performance of what I got now that the money is already spent.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    I'm not against having a lever with a reservoir, I just don't see BFO re-tooling to make it happen and was hoping to devise a way to improve on the performance of what I got now that the money is already spent.
    Yeah, agreed. But they have to retool for the changes you mention anyways.

    It's natural evolution, in turn they will have to produce certain improvements/updates on their brake and they can introduce whatever changes they decide.
    Check my Site

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    Yeah, agreed. But they have to retool for the changes you mention anyways.

    It's natural evolution, in turn they will have to produce certain improvements/updates on their brake and they can introduce whatever changes they decide.
    I was just going to either source or make a couple small reverse flow check valves and run a separate return line connecting the caliper and lever bleed ports if it came down to it. I figure if I can't tune these to function to my satisfaction I'm just going to buy some Saints anyway, so what's the harm in trying to tweek them if I determine them as a loss.

    It would be great if BFO would continue to innovate and refine these brakes, the potential is there. I am unsure they would give up on the closed system as one of their main claims to fame as it stands is being the lightest. These are saving all the weight at the lever. I would prefer the added weight in trade for sturdier feeling levers with a reservoir, I just think BFO would be concerned about loosing sales if they did so.

  73. #73
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    Hopefully you don't ditch em' before I get a chance to try em!
    Alcohol may lead nowhere, but it sure is the scenic route!

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    Quote Originally Posted by OO7 View Post
    Hopefully you don't ditch em' before I get a chance to try em!
    After the coin I dropped I'm in no rush to do it soon, although I am tempted to but an XTR m985 lever to see if they might jive with these awesome calipers.

    That's what sucks about bike components, all I have to know is piston diameters to calculate area so as to match masters and slaves to acheive the correct amount of force multiplication. That info is all a big hush, hush secret with bicycle brakes

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    That's what sucks about bike components, all I have to know is piston diameters to calculate area so as to match masters and slaves to acheive the correct amount of force multiplication. That info is all a big hush, hush secret with bicycle brakes
    Magura used to publish this info a while ago...

    Before their MT series, their slaves were 22mm (marta and louise) and the masters were something like 11mm (depending on model). I can dig up that info later.

    Now... some people had fitted Shimano levers to Magura calipers, so they should be in the ballpark.

    I don't know about other systems. There may be numbers published here and there.
    Check my Site

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    Magura used to publish this info a while ago...

    Before their MT series, their slaves were 22mm (marta and louise) and the masters were something like 11mm (depending on model). I can dig up that info later.

    Now... some people had fitted Shimano levers to Magura calipers, so they should be in the ballpark.

    I don't know about other systems. There may be numbers published here and there.
    Now you really have me thinking hard about giving this a shot. The M985 levers are on sale at Chain Reaction Cycles for something rediculously low, around 58 bucks per side.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    Now you really have me thinking hard about giving this a shot. The M985 levers are on sale at Chain Reaction Cycles for something rediculously low, around 58 bucks per side.
    From Magura's 2007 Catalog...
    (master cylinder dia / number of pistons * dia.)

    Marta: 10mm/2*22mm
    Louise: 12mm/2*22mm
    Gustav: 10.5/2*18mm
    Julie: 13mm/2*28mm (low pressure system)
    Check my Site

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    New North American Distributor for BFO

    Greetings Brake Peeps,

    Steve here from Exposure Lights USA and IBEX Sports.
    IBEX Sports has become the exclusive importer and distributor for Brake Force One in the North American territory. We officially launched this at interbike 2012. Please feel free to contact us if you want/need some BFO brakes.

    IBEX Sports
    PO Box 369
    Rollinsford, NH 03869
    1-800-575-4873
    info@ibexsports.com
    IBEX Sports
    Importer / Distributor for Exposure Lights, U.S.E. and VDO Cycle computers.

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    I'm looking forward to giving the BFO's a try when we get a set at the shop.

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    Just got them, they work great, they need some time to get accostumed to the "different" way the brakes work, tho... stopping power is there in spades, but modulation is higher, and this gives the idea of less crispy braking. This feature is a big plus on technical descents, where you don't want the rear to skid or the front to wash out. Fast turns leave you a bit disconcerted until you learn to brake properly - also remember the first part of the lever movement is for the pad to touch the brake, so no deceleration is obtained.
    Great brakes, IMO....

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    How are the brakes doing now that you've had a week or so on them?

    JC


    Quote Originally Posted by even View Post
    Just got them, they work great, they need some time to get accostumed to the "different" way the brakes work, tho... stopping power is there in spades, but modulation is higher, and this gives the idea of less crispy braking. This feature is a big plus on technical descents, where you don't want the rear to skid or the front to wash out. Fast turns leave you a bit disconcerted until you learn to brake properly - also remember the first part of the lever movement is for the pad to touch the brake, so no deceleration is obtained.
    Great brakes, IMO....

  82. #82
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    Holy Crap! $999 for a front and rear with no rotors or adapters!
    EXPOSURELIGHTSUSA.COM

  83. #83
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    What does the exposure lights link gotta do with this?




    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    Holy Crap! $999 for a front and rear with no rotors or adapters!
    EXPOSURELIGHTSUSA.COM

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    What does the exposure lights link gotta do with this?
    It shows the brakes and how much they cost
    click on the left side column, no, it is not working anymore.
    use search function, brakes...
    Last edited by doccoraje; 01-17-2013 at 01:47 PM. Reason: Adding info

  85. #85
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    Just wow. Pass....

    Thanks for finding out the price in the US howver!
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    Yeah, that website leaves a lot to be desired. $56 each for rotors, $35 each for adapters, puts you at about $1200 a set, imagine what a replacement lever costs? Full injected molded carbon lever and body which is bound to explode when you crash.

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    Carbon filled polycarbonate...

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    Yeah, that website leaves a lot to be desired. $56 each for rotors, $35 each for adapters, puts you at about $1200 a set, imagine what a replacement lever costs? ...
    According to our saying "If you can afford to have a monkey, you should also have the funds for bananas" (free translation), that's why e.g. Ferrari is not that popular.

  89. #89
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    yup exorbitantly priced, sorry but this won't work.
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    Difficult to keep prices low when brakes are handbuilt in a country where workers are paid more than a bunch of rice a day


    FTW Industries Mategua with Brake force One brakes and Kilo fork: a short review

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    I didn't pay anywhere near that much for mine, anyone interested should contact the OP Ian.

    Calipers are great, closed system and lever design are a fail. Should BFO ever develops an open system lever for these calipers they will dominate.

    Until that happens these are boxed.

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    well, I quite like them...

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    Quote Originally Posted by even View Post
    well, I quite like them...
    I'm glad to hear that, please follow up with a long term update.

    I do feel these have great potential, for me personally I disliked the constantly changing bite point I experienced with the set I received nor the levers not mounting properly to the bars as mine were not formed to a proper fit.

    If you haven't experienced these issues and are satisfied with yours then I am glad for you and left wondering if I got a defective set.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    I didn't pay anywhere near that much for mine, anyone interested should contact the OP Ian.

    Calipers are great, closed system and lever design are a fail. Should BFO ever develops an open system lever for these calipers they will dominate.

    Until that happens these are boxed.
    Looking at the photos of your brakes from earlier posts in this thread, Jon, you've got the first generation model and BFO have made some vast improvements to the system since then. It's a night and day difference we find.

    Anyone looking to buy these brakes in the USA can buy right from our exclusive mail order retailer in the USA, Competitive Cyclist, or they can be purchased through your LBS who would get them from from us directly.

    We're happy to answer any questions folks might have about the brakes.

    Cheers,
    Steve
    IBEX Sports
    Importer / Distributor for Exposure Lights, U.S.E. and VDO Cycle computers.

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    I've got these, are they different from yours, Jon?


    FTW Industries Mategua with Brake force One brakes and Kilo fork: a short review

    (I just changed the caliper bolts; they were a nightmare to work with)


    Steve, funny enough, I even mount a USE suspension post, occasionally

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve@Exposure Lights USA View Post
    Looking at the photos of your brakes from earlier posts in this thread, Jon, you've got the first generation model and BFO have made some vast improvements to the system since then. It's a night and day difference we find.

    We're happy to answer any questions folks might have about the brakes.

    Cheers,
    Steve
    Would you mind sharing what you know about what changes have been made and if you feel BFO would be willing to work with me to set these right.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve@Exposure Lights USA View Post
    Looking at the photos of your brakes from earlier posts in this thread, Jon, you've got the first generation model and BFO have made some vast improvements to the system since then. It's a night and day difference we find.

    Anyone looking to buy these brakes in the USA can buy right from our exclusive mail order retailer in the USA, Competitive Cyclist, or they can be purchased through your LBS who would get them from from us directly.

    We're happy to answer any questions folks might have about the brakes.

    Cheers,
    Steve
    It might be particularly helpful at this point to comment on exactly what those improvements are.

    You know, I certainly applaud ingenuity and creativity, however, BFO clearly has a lot of growing pains to work though in their business model.

    People balk at how expensive Hope brakes are, which are HALF of what BFOs cost . . . the major difference is that Hope has a LONG reputation of substantial quality to back up their price-point and have justified the expense.

    If the folks at BFO are legitimately interested in remaining in this industry, they better take a very serious look at their business model. Otherwise, my prediction is that BFO will cease to exist within 24 months . . . which lets face it, does NOT bode well for warranty work and long-term product support.
    Alcohol may lead nowhere, but it sure is the scenic route!

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    Quote Originally Posted by even View Post
    I've got these, are they different from yours, Jon?
    Mine are identical save for being black, not sure what the difference could be outwardly.

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    I am happy to share the advancements we know about with you for the 2013 BFO line.

    1. They have gone over to a new one piece alloy union nut / olive as seen in Even's pics of his FTW bike. The hose at the lever end is actually pressed onto the barbed end of the union nut.

    2. New larger diameter, transparent hoses, which allow for a higher volume of fluid passing through from lever to caliper. It's a low pressure, high volume system with the boost valve in the caliper. Brakes fluid is pushed through the system at a higher volume, with the larger diameter boost valve in the caliper you get an incredibly powerful system requiring less force at the lever and really nice lever 'feedback' and modulation. From having ridden the 1st generation brakes like Jon has since early May 2012, the increased power from these two changes alone was very, very, noticeable.

    3. New material at the master cylinder in the lever body which allows for a smoother, more fluid feel of the lever and modulation of the brakes, but more importantly, what was lacking from earlier versions was a nice smooth and reliable feel of the return rate of the lever when you let the brakes go, they snap back into position with a nice positive feel on the lever. The 12 version felt great, but lacked a good return, almost giving the lever a dead feel. They also made some subtle machining changes to the lever pad contact dial/pin to eliminating contact with lever body. The dial and pin is what adjusts the pads closer to the rotor or further away.

    Hope this is helpful?

    Steve
    IBEX Sports
    Importer / Distributor for Exposure Lights, U.S.E. and VDO Cycle computers.

  100. #100
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    It sounds like updating to the newer levers, larger lines, and hose-banjo interface would be worth the effort.

    Would BFO work with me to retrofit my brakes? I am unclear as to whom to speak with about the issues I'm experiencing.

    Ian and I haven't communicated beyond his believing a bleed and adjust would solve my issues. I hate to see this investment sit dormant, if you can help or direct me to someone who can I would greatly appreciate it.

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