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  1. #1
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    ABS for MTB disc brakes?

    hey all,

    i searched the forums and haven't seen anything that touches on this....does anyone know if there is or was such a thing as ABS or anti-lock brakes for mountain bike disc brakes? planes, cars, trucks, and most other vehicles have had this technology for many years. i'm thinking it would add control and heighten safety...not to mention cut down on trail damage/erosion. just seems to make sense.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by lazy72 View Post
    hey all,

    i searched the forums and haven't seen anything that touches on this....does anyone know if there is or was such a thing as ABS or anti-lock brakes for mountain bike disc brakes? planes, cars, trucks, and most other vehicles have had this technology for many years. i'm thinking it would add control and heighten safety...not to mention cut down on trail damage/erosion. just seems to make sense.
    Does not exist, at least in the marketplace.

    ABS for two wheel vehicles is more difficult than for four wheels. There could be benefits but it is going to be expensive and complicated.
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  3. #3
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    Nope, never would work, and too rpicy, and you don't ever need it.

  4. #4
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    it would be heavy and suck a lot of power.

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    Yes. They were called the Juicy 3.

  6. #6
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    I know BMW experimented with ABS on some of its bikes. (the same company that installed airbags and stereo's.... on motorcycles)

    besides the weight and power sucking, another thing to consider is if you're too stupid to ride a bicycle without ABS, you probably should not be riding a mountain bike. This is a challenging and dangerous sport. If a rider wants to push it to an extreme, they should know how to control their bike at that extreme. not rely on some babysitter gizmo's. There is a reason you don't see ABS in serious autosports. because its a hindrance.

    If a person does not know how to react, with their own skills... to a loss of traction. ABS will not save them in that situation. Knowing how to ACTUALLY handle a skid, in a car or bike is much more important.

    I mean, really. I see people with "trailbikes" with 180 rotors and 6x6 travel on trails without any obstacles. and a lot of them cant handle them, nor do they have a scrap of trail etiquette.

    rather than ask for yet more tech to hold your hand, I ask YOU to go out and learn how to ride a bike with a moderate level of awareness.

    I ride a rigid, steel, 1x9 on those trails. and honestly its better suited for them. I imagine when I take it on Bonneville Shorline for the first time its gonna beat the tar out of me. but know your tool, improve your skills and just learn to enjoy the ride.

  7. #7
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    As discs become common in segments of cycling other than MTB'ing I think it's something that could be useful. I could see the entry level disc equipped road bikes that are going to start popping up in a year or two using them for sure.

    Judging by all the brake bumps in Bend I'd say there are more than a few mountain bikers that could use them as well.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill in Houston View Post
    it would be heavy and suck a lot of power.

    Did you build/see/ride a prototype that was heavy and lacked power?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    Did you build/see/ride a prototype that was heavy and lacked power?
    yes.

    BMW realized just how poorly it works on two wheels.

  10. #10
    gran jefe
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    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    Did you build/see/ride a prototype that was heavy and lacked power?
    I did not see a prototype. I have only seen a production model of an ABS. The pump is heavy and requires power to run it. The manifolding and valving is also bulky and heavy. The entire system is sensitive to the quality of bleeding you are able to do, and goodness knows we have trouble with that.

  11. #11
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    good points..

    as far as this hypothetical ABS system being heavy, power sucking, and useless or unnecessary, i bet that during the evolution of mountain biking there were tons of riders saying the same thing about clipless pedals, front suspension, full suspension, tubeless tire systems, 29in wheels, etc. all of these innovations are things we use and love today, but had dubious beginnings. just a matter of opinion and willingness to think beyond current limitations, i guess.

    there may be a hand-holding element of this(increased safety for those "oh sh#$#$%!" moments), but there may also be other benefits for more skilled riders alike..like having more control at higher speeds. imagine if the reduced skidding resulted in less trail damage, and more access to trails that cyclists are not currently allowed to enjoy.

    i don't think you can rationally say to all people "just be a better bike rider" in all situations.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by lazy72 View Post
    as far as this hypothetical ABS system being heavy, power sucking, and useless or unnecessary, i bet that during the evolution of mountain biking there were tons of riders saying the same thing about clipless pedals, front suspension, full suspension, tubeless tire systems, 29in wheels, etc. all of these innovations are things we use and love today, but had dubious beginnings. just a matter of opinion and willingness to think beyond current limitations, i guess.

    there may be a hand-holding element of this(increased safety for those "oh sh#$#$%!" moments), but there may also be other benefits for more skilled riders alike..like having more control at higher speeds. imagine if the reduced skidding resulted in less trail damage, and more access to trails that cyclists are not currently allowed to enjoy.

    i don't think you can rationally say to all people "just be a better bike rider" in all situations.
    Lots of "innovations" that failed, too. Steering dampers, air-operated shifting, semi-tubeless tires, thermoplastic frames, electronic shock dampers, automatic shifting, cast metal spoke wheels...
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  13. #13
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    Seems people in this thread are ignoring the problem with the PHYSICS of ABS on a vehicle with two wheels instead of 4.

    when moving in 3 dimensional space. a car with 4 wheels has a whole lot less to worry about in maintaining stability across its width, or X-axis (that's a geometry reference, but you get my point.)

    a bikes X-axis is inherently unstable, unless you have training wheels the only stabilizing effect is the pseudo-gyroscopic event that unexplainably makes an unridden bike right itself.

    now lets add the STOPGOSTOPGOSTOPGO brake "chatter" that is an ABS system doing its "thang" and see how easy it is to keep that bike stable.

  14. #14
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    Really? Come on, why ABS on a bike??? I'd think a mini rocket pack would be a little more appropriate, IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Lots of "innovations" that failed, too. Steering dampers, air-operated shifting, semi-tubeless tires, thermoplastic frames, electronic shock dampers, automatic shifting, cast metal spoke wheels...

    I wonder when electronic shock dampers are going to come back to bicycles? That technology is common place in premium European sedans and sports cars. It's only a mater of time before pro flex gives it another go.

  16. #16
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    The forum search is still broken so old threads don't show up. You have to search the forum via Google to find anything at the moment.

    Here's a thread on the subject of mountain bike ABS brakes with some discussion.

    ABS brakes for bikes?

    .

  17. #17
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    I'd rather see dual front disc's on DH then ABS but that's just me.

  18. #18
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    Has anyone used ABS brakes on a dirt road before? In no way would I want an ABS system to slow down the brake response time of my mountain bike when I need it.

    Edit: Why you don't want ABS.
    ABS on Dirt - YouTube
    Last edited by tussery; 02-20-2012 at 04:55 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Call_me_Tom View Post
    I'd rather see dual front disc's on DH then ABS but that's just me.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tussery View Post
    Has anyone used ABS brakes on a dirt road before? In no way would I want an ABS system to slow down the brake response time of my mountain bike when I need it.

    you. good sir... are NOT an idiot.

  21. #21
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    Those who 'need' ABS on a bike would never be willing to afford it.
    I can barely get my mouth around it.

  22. #22
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    Two fingers on each hand, works for me.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Two fingers on each hand, works for me.
    I am with you, when a machine has more control over its actions than its rider you are going to have issues. Modulating your brakes so you do not skid is not a difficult task.

    Not to mention all of the complication that comes with ABS like wheel speed sensors, pumps/valves, etc, it would add a ton of weight and require you to keep a somewhat powerful battery charged at all times.
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  24. #24
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    How would you lock up the rear to make a turn?
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  25. #25
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    I think ABS brakes would be a good idea on paper, but on the trail would be more of an hassle than improvement. You would need to fine tune the braking force (or modulation) according to each terrain, hard pack or mud, then also work with brake fade under heat that would required more power to be apply to the pads to grab the rotor, then an on/off switch and a shock-proof wiring and micro-chips, plus good battery that you can trust to allow your brake to work whenever you need... In winter it could be nice during sloppy commutes, but too much problems still needs to be solved.

    What about a torque activated ratchet system in the hub that attach the rotor to the wheel ? Set it to corresponding torque by your total weight (or something like that, I'm no "torque" expert) and when the rotor get stopped by the pads, the wheel can still spin, but with resistance, that allow you to quickly correct the brake force you are giving... I don't know, just thinking out loud... Let's go look into Google's patent search engine to see if we could find some interesting drawings
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  26. #26
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    delete
    Last edited by Bikeint; 07-10-2016 at 08:14 PM. Reason: delete

  27. #27
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    So that's why my tektro's failed to lock! They had ABS, and here I am thinking they're were just weak. Silly me, even spent money on a set of BB5's.

    I'm gonna throw out my Hayes and Grimeca 4 pots for some good ol' Tektro.

  28. #28
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    Some v-brake bikes have a spring in the front brake noodle as "ABS". It prevents the wheel from locking up, but it decreases braking power. My hunch is that a true bicycle ABS system would be modeled after automotive ABS and would be disproportionately expensive.

  29. #29
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    Its called "modulation". With good brake modulation there is no need for ABS brakes. Same with a car, motorcycle, etc. Pad compound, rotor diameter, caliper piston/lever piston size/ratio, b rake hose material, lever length/pivot ratio all play a part.

  30. #30
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    Seriously people, on a 4 wheeled vehicle ABS can work, the vehicle doesn't have to balance, they drive on asphalt, so the brakes are there to slow and stop you, that's it. On an MTB the brakes are used to slow, stop you, as well as used to help steer the bike, then there's the little thing of balance if the system stopped the wrong wheel from grabbing fully, I can just see them in use now and the amount of serious injuries that would result - just use your damn brain peoples, you cannot use ABD on 2 wheeled vehicles on dirt/loose surfaces.
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    Don't speculate. Build one and try it.

  32. #32
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    That would be an awful upgrade.

    I love being able to control my bike to to the max with my brakes. Say you want heavy rear brake in a sharp, loose soiled turn with a small berm to whip your rear wheel into the berm? Wont be able to do it with ABS.
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  33. #33
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    Just what we need, more complication! Now, let's make everything computer controlled.

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    Last edited by Bikeint; 07-10-2016 at 08:14 PM.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyIron View Post
    Yes. They were called the Juicy 3.
    very good my fren

  36. #36
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    no

    ABS on a bicycle is just not going to work. It is just not practicle. First you need a power source to power it. Then you need some sort of hydralic pump powerful enough to do the duty. Add in wheel speed sensors, relays, valves, and all sorts of other cool yet needless items and you have a big heavy unit with no place to put it. Even if you could make it small and convienient it would be too costly to produce. We are already paying hundreds of dollars for hand operated hydralic brakes. Throw some electronics in there and see how much the price is jacked. Yes, modern motorcycles do have ABS systems, some even have TCS, but these ABS systems only work when the bike is going in a straight line and is note leaned over. The second you start to turn and put any type of lean into a bike ABS goes out the door. If the tire is locked there is no traction and you most likely gonna wash out anyway. ABS isn't gonna save you there.

  37. #37
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    What effect would ABS have on bike handling?

    I sometimes want to lock the front wheel up, particularly on really tight switchbacks when I need to endo to swing the back of the bike around. In downhill riding I often deliberately lock the rear brake up to lean the bike and slide the back into a corner.

    Ignoring the weight, cost and maintenance side of thing, I'm not sure I'd want to use ABS if it inherently affected this side of bike handling. But if it was available I would certainly be interesting in giving a demo ride.

    On a side not the ABS, traction control, stability control... all have been considered to be making the average driver worst at car handling in an emergency situation, the the car now able to do so much it is dumbing down drivers ability and they are finding more people are running into the backs of other and sliding sideways off roads because people are so confident in what a car can get them out off... food for thought.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uphill=sad View Post
    What effect would ABS have on bike handling?

    I sometimes want to lock the front wheel up, particularly on really tight switchbacks when I need to endo to swing the back of the bike around. In downhill riding I often deliberately lock the rear brake up to lean the bike and slide the back into a corner.

    Ignoring the weight, cost and maintenance side of thing, I'm not sure I'd want to use ABS if it inherently affected this side of bike handling. But if it was available I would certainly be interesting in giving a demo ride.

    On a side not the ABS, traction control, stability control... all have been considered to be making the average driver worst at car handling in an emergency situation, the the car now able to do so much it is dumbing down drivers ability and they are finding more people are running into the backs of other and sliding sideways off roads because people are so confident in what a car can get them out off... food for thought.

    You are so right on the whole ABS, TCS, and Stabilitrac comment. People expect these systems to work wonders and break the laws of physics. If that were the case we would see far less wrecks on the roads. Now that I think about it, if a cars preprogrammed computers could break the laws of physics we wouldn't need ABS at all. We could hit the breaks and stop instantly!!!

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danielrg_usa View Post
    ABS on a bicycle is just not going to work. It is just not practicle. First you need a power source to power it. Then you need some sort of hydralic pump powerful enough to do the duty. Add in wheel speed sensors, relays, valves, and all sorts of other cool yet needless items and you have a big heavy unit with no place to put it. Even if you could make it small and convienient it would be too costly to produce. We are already paying hundreds of dollars for hand operated hydralic brakes. Throw some electronics in there and see how much the price is jacked. Yes, modern motorcycles do have ABS systems, some even have TCS, but these ABS systems only work when the bike is going in a straight line and is note leaned over. The second you start to turn and put any type of lean into a bike ABS goes out the door. If the tire is locked there is no traction and you most likely gonna wash out anyway. ABS isn't gonna save you there.
    What he said...

    Now airbags... you could produce an Air-Suit with a pressure sensor at the saddle, grips and pedals, when the suit feels three of those points are not touching the bike, then it automatically inflates the air suit.

    Say, you're going OTB, your butt and hands will not touch the bike, but fear no more, your landing will be soft. The Air-Suit will keep you safe. You can fill it with Stan's so if you land over cactus or chollas, it would seal preventing that the Air Suit deflates without protecting you.

    Not because it works on a car works on bike... seatbelts are a good example.
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  40. #40
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    As a few others have pointed out, ABS is dangerous for any vehicle (2 or 4 wheel) offroad. Offroad it has the opposite effect and will increases your stopping distance in an emergency.
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  41. #41
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    First of all BMW is been making bikes with ABS since 1986 (K-100/K75) and yes the early versions where kind of heavy and clumsy but far from a "Experiment" today the bikes sport the III generation system that is much lighter, smaller and also performs better.

    Yes I do ride them rain or shine.



    Today many other motorcycle brands have developed ABS systems too even KTM, more than anything for their touring/street machines but also for On/Off road bikes.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by patineto View Post
    n KTM, more than anything for their touring/street machines but also for On/Off road bikes.
    yea system only weighs a few more pounds, but the consensus is the abs gets turned off for the dirt as it is even more important than on a bicycle to have the ability to slide the rear to get the direction change to turn .On pavement i think i understand how it works; when straight up nail the brakes and you stop without slip. But what if ,when in a wet turn ,you hit the brakes too hard , wouldn't you just slide out and low side as if there were no abs? or does it just improve things in that situation but is still obviously not able to overcome physics if too much brake is applied

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by natrat View Post
    yea system only weighs a few more pounds, but the consensus is the abs gets turned off for the dirt as it is even more important than on a bicycle to have the ability to slide the rear to get the direction change to turn .On pavement i think i understand how it works; when straight up nail the brakes and you stop without slip. But what if ,when in a wet turn ,you hit the brakes too hard , wouldn't you just slide out and low side as if there were no abs? or does it just improve things in that situation but is still obviously not able to overcome physics if too much brake is applied
    Personally I don't ride with the ABS ON unless is raining/snowing or I'm really tired, the bikes are just more fun that way (rear slides/stoppies like you say) Yes in the dirt is mandatory NOT to have it on, but it can be a great tool if you are new to the dirt.

    Personally I think bicycles are to be keep as simple as possible (been riding MTB's since 1983) but I also understand how somebody with out much skill will want a system to make their life easier..

    Ps: I want a newer GS but the only way to get one was with ABS, "Traction control", "electronically adjusted suspension" (ESA) and other features that are more gadget that anything else.

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    Wow, some df neg repped me because I said that ABS doesn't work offroad. Something about cars having ABS??? No kidding... cars have ABS... thanks... you're a genious... now go back and reread my post. Cars have a defeat system built into them if you go offroad. It is much better for your ABS to not be working when trying to brake in an emergency while offroad. Most cars deactivate the ABS after 2-3 pumps of the brake pedal... which is something that a person does in a panic when their car won't stop/respond in a emergency situation... pump the pedal. This allows your tires to lock up and dig into the ground which it obviously can't do on asphalt. If you brake hard offroad with the ABS system functioning then it will just keep sensing wheel slip and keep pulsing. It will never restore the friction between road and tire that it is looking for. There you go... You just learned something.
    Last edited by FireLikeIYA; 06-11-2012 at 09:21 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    What he said...

    Now airbags... you could produce an Air-Suit with a pressure sensor at the saddle, grips and pedals, when the suit feels three of those points are not touching the bike, then it automatically inflates the air suit.
    Something like this?

    Dainese airbag suit for 2010 - YouTube

    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA View Post
    Wow, some df neg repped me because I said that ABS doesn't work offroad. .
    There you go some positive rep to make up for it. This has been an interesting thread.

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  47. #47
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    I wish I could disable the ABS system in my car like I can with the traction control. Sigh...
    Ripping trails and tipping ales

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by patineto View Post
    Yes I do ride them rain or shine.
    I like this guy. Wet to the bone and still asking for more

    Plus the bike rack is just awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    I wish I could disable the ABS system in my car like I can with the traction control. Sigh...
    Me too and that stupid thing that forces you to depress the clutch in to start the engine. I guess must drivers are idiots.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    I wonder when electronic shock dampers are going to come back to bicycles? That technology is common place in premium European sedans and sports cars. It's only a mater of time before pro flex gives it another go.
    I hear that within the next 24 months it be on the market: front and rear shocks that are electronically controlled/enhanced.

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