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  1. #1
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    Virtual Pivot Point best linkage?

    I humbly & sincerely ask your forgiveness if this is as naive a question as I fear it is...

    Today a Pivot dealer explained the advantages of Virtual Pivot Point while pointing to the linkage on his Intense bike, sharing that VPP is the highest performing linkage system currently avaialble to humankind & the animal kingdom...

    Forgive me, but is it true or just marketing trash talk? I have only two seasons on MTB but hundreds of thousands of miles on motorcycles. Guy explains VPP has less jackshaft effect, less kickback while pedaling, more linear vertical travel, makes better love, better breakfast, etc, etc.

    What say member savants?

    Ignite flame throwers because I have earned it (the low-frequency growl is sexy), but please maintain low settings only...& otherwise be gentle...

    Love,
    jimbo
    Last edited by ro7939; 06-10-2009 at 09:36 AM.

  2. #2
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    I run a VPP santa cruz and love it, but to say its the best is like saying chevy is the best. I've heard great things about DW link bikes, maestro bikes, etc...

    Lets just say I don't think you can go wrong with a VPP bike.

  3. #3
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    Wow. A pivot dealer? That seems odd seing as how Pivot uses the DW Link which they say is better. Weird.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qui'lan Fett
    Wow. A pivot dealer? That seems odd seing as how Pivot uses the DW Link which they say is better. Weird.
    IIRC he stated or implied that the linkage behaves similarly on Pivot & Intense; quote me (a nooewb) at your peril!

    I'm familiar w/ market-driven trash talk. In high-end audio there are rabid religious fanatics of many different stripe; holy jihads are declared against enemy camps!

  5. #5
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    we're pretty much down to

    single pivot bikes, including faux bar like Kona, and the rest are essentially all 4 bar, with various and novel adaptations to get around patents and such.

    There aren't any bad bikes out there, they fell off the radar, so any bike with almost any suspension is a good bet, just pick your ride. (not including dept store and other low end crap)

    As for the 'Ford vs. Chevy is best' nonsense, well, a grain of salt. And in my infinite wisdom, I've noticed riders on crappy bikes not safe to ride pass me and others doing weird and wonderful things; it's the rider, not the bike that is the best.

    Jim

  6. #6
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    VPP probably has it merits though when I looked at the program that shows the suspension travel paths of DW, VPP, maestro, Horst-link, single pivot - I was hard pressed to tell the difference. They all appeared as an arc centered on some point proximal to the BB.

  7. #7
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    It's interesting how audio, motorcycle & now biking hobbies intersect. Indeed, there are at least 3 or more accepted methods for setting up a radial tonearm regarding it's path or arc across the record. All of the acceptable methods provide different specific momentary points in the path where the stylus is exactly at right angle to the groove. Not one method is considered "best" in the theoretical OR real world. Sounds like this has a very similar analogy in suspension linkage.

    Yamaha has at least one race replica motorcycle (maybe other makes too) w/ co-axial drive chain sprocket & swingarm pivot, thereby completely eliminating chain growth relative to suspsension action.

    Praytell, why has this not arrived on MTB suspensions?

  8. #8
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    I think we're down to the single pivots like the Scalpel and Superlight, the 4 bars like the specialized, Scotts etc, and the modifications on that theme like maestro and DW. With the Maestro and DW being slightly ahead of the game. Almost all my riding has been on the FSR bikes, but having test rode an Anthem recently the small pump compliance was way better than with having a stiff platform on an FSR, and it was as good climbing as an epic and better than anything else other than an epic.
    www.mtbiker.ca

    My Rides:
    FSR XC -R7 Platinum - SRAM X7 (26.5lbs)
    Cervelo SLC - SRAM Rival - Reynolds DV46T (16.25 lbs)

  9. #9
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    my 2 cents

    I would not believe all the hype! It all comes down to what you like and think feels best. I could sell you on just about any suspension design out there on the market if you want, but try out the bikes and just try to disreguard the BS out there. I personally have owned dozens of FS bike from different company over the years and can say that in the past few years there has been some huge improvements in design and technology. I can't say what is the "best", but I have a few that stick out. Just go with we want you feel is the best value and ride for yourself. Good luck

  10. #10
    PCC
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    I was speaking with the owner of a LBS about the different suspension designs and he told me that the VPP and DW-Link systems are really good but that with the DW-Link system you pedal and the bike moves forward almost like riding a hard tail: no pedaling-induced suspension movement at all. With the VPP design it feels kind of like a hammock in that you push down on the pedal and the suspension gives a bit before the bike surges forwards. In terms of plushness they're very similar. I have ridden neither. My bike has a single-pivot so I'm still in the stone ages WRT to suspension.

  11. #11
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    I don't know about the DW link having no pedal induced movement. I own an Orbea Occam Carbon (single pivot.) Tried the Ibis Mojo ( DW-link) for a week and to see if I wanted to switch frames. Now given I never turned pro pedal on on mojo and there was not a ton of bob but there was some. The Orbea would be terrible if it was not for pro pedal. All single pivots bob like a cheer leader on prom bight unless there is something helping them out.

    I also now have a Nomad (VPP2) and it has about the same pedal bob as the mojo when the pro pedal is on, with out it there a is a little more but not a ton.

    DW link is the best overall for minimal pedal bob but it is still there.

    I am sure if I learned to use lower gears on the up hills instead of torqueing on the biggers ones there would be less.

    I don't think you could go wrong with any suspension design these days. Technology has gone so far that most of the old problems and concerns between on type of suspension vs anouther are not there or very little.

  12. #12
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    they're all really about the same.. people just like freaking out about it. even single pivots pedal great with a good shock. special linkage bikes just let you run shocks softer.. a fast rider on a crappy old trek Y bike will absolutely kill a guy on a brand new mojo whos not a strong rider.

    spend the money on a stiff frame that fits you well and you're golden. forget what the little suspension design sticker says.

  13. #13
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    The person I ride with the most has a DW link bike (Ibis Mojo). And I can assure you, there is pedal bob. I see it regularly. But, it definitely bobs less than the Racer X he used to ride. I also rented a Mojo recently when I was on vacation and thought it was great. I currently ride a Niner rip9 which uses it's own technology (CVA; Constantly Varying Arc.), and it is the most efficient bike I've ridden. I also have owned horst link Turner, horst link Specialized. Both are good bikes, but there is definitely a difference. I've also owned a single pivot bike (Ibis Szabo). I thought it was the shiznit back in the day. But, I was mostly comparing it to hard tails. It had a lot of pedal bob and bucked under hard breaking. Seems like nearly all of the newer suspension bikes are pretty efficient though. Get what you like, or what you can afford. I hear the Pivots are awesome. I considered getting one, but my local dealer didn't have one in my size, and I had already test ridden and loved the Niner.

  14. #14
    PCC
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    even single pivots pedal great with a good shock.
    Modern shocks with lockouts and platforms are band-aid fixes to the age old problem of pedal-induced bob. A suspension that doesn't need a platform would actually be ideal. The VPP and DW-Link designs come about as close to this as is currently available. The thing is that the platforms actually stiffen the rear suspension compared to what it could be without it for small bump compliance.

    The other problem that rear suspensions have to deal with is brake jack. This is, basically, the rear suspension locking up under braking. I believe that the Horst link was created in response to this problem. I don't know how well the DW-Link or the VPP system work to overcome this issue.

  15. #15
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    Virtual pivot points really ARE the best rear suspension systems on the market. That said, there is alot of competition among the different versions. Santa cruz has a patent on theirs and is supposed to really have the best system out there. Pivot does NOT liscence from santa cruz, it liscences from dw-link (actually bought it I think) and no its not the same. The second best system in effectiveness is marins quad system, followed closely by giants maestro system. There is arugment to be had there, but those really are the top 3 suspension linkage systems currently in existence, aside from fsr in tandem with a brain rear shock. DW-link is supposed to be very very good as well.

  16. #16
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    Lets not forget Yeti. Very simple
    and works great.

    Best, John

  17. #17
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    I may be late to the party here but I don't see where anyone here really knows what the main advantage of VPP is. While pedaling it keeps the driving portion of your chain the same length throughout the stroke thus eliminating underdrive and overdrive of the rear wheel during compression and rebound respectively. It's all about optimum traction under power.

  18. #18
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    This is a great thread, I sense that it can go on forever..................
    Re-Cycled Person who rides a mountain bicycle.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by panicrev555 View Post
    I may be late to the party here but I don't see where anyone here really knows what the main advantage of VPP is. While pedaling it keeps the driving portion of your chain the same length throughout the stroke thus eliminating underdrive and overdrive of the rear wheel during compression and rebound respectively. It's all about optimum traction under power.
    How do you even find a thread that is 5 YEARS OLD!
    On MTBR, the reputation is infamous.

  20. #20
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    Vpp and DW, 2 of the most fun systems to talk/debate about. (and ride)

  21. #21
    > /dev/null 2&>1
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    Good thing you resurfaced this panicrev. It's an important question that needed answering. Now the ghost of this thread can rest in peace and stop roaming the virtual halls of MTBR looking desperately for final respite from the pivot point debate.

    Requiescat en pace, vpp thread. May the god of pivots have mercy on your soul.

  22. #22
    > /dev/null 2&>1
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    Again, there are untold numbers of conflicting gospels on this ... and there's no need to re-hash them here, but...

    DW link and VPP are only very marginally, slightly different. I've ridden DW link a lot more, but in the few miles on VPP couldn't tell a significant difference. My DW link maybe feels sligthly more 'locked' with pro-pedal on. But that could be the bike... not the design. Bikes vary a lot - not all DW link bikes are equal, and not all VPP bikes are equal. A bikes other geometrical characteristics like BB height, chainstay length, and head tube have a bigger role in perceived performance.

    Do a search and start reading

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