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Turner Flux vs. Seven Duo

3K views 35 replies 20 participants last post by  gmookher 
#1 ·
Just turned 50, and looking to treat myself to my first full suspension. I am confused by the various systems and would love some help sorting things out. I've been riding a Merlin hardtail since 92, I just ride XC 3-5 times a week, no racing, no big jumps, etc. The trails here in Park City are a bit rocky but not bad. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
 
#2 ·
I thought I had it all figured out until I rode the Maverick ML7, ML8, and a couple of Turners including the Flux at Interbike (I own a Turner XCE, 5-Spot, and 6-Pack). I had assumed that the Maverick frames would give the Turners some competition based on a lot of great feedback here, but despite the fact that the Maverick booth set them up specifically for us and our weights, I thought they quite frankly sucked amazingly bad. My apologies to monolink fans, but they were the worst pedaling bikes I think I have ever climbed aboard and ghost shifted to beat all hell. There were 3 of us of similar weight and height with the two Mavericks and another brand bike and none of us could stand the Mavs. I hope the guy at the Mav booth had no idea what he was doing and the bikes don't always ride like that.

The Flux was nothing short of delicious. Head over to the Turner board here and read up on it.
 
#4 ·
Hi,

I've been able to test the Seven, Maveric, and Flux. The Seven had the titanium "feel" and I found it too flexy for my 200lbs. If I were getting a Seven, the custom options could certainly eliminate that and give a great fit. I liked the Maveric better, but like Tscheezy said, they didn't pedal all that well and definately had shifting problems. If these were poorly set up by the lbs, it still gives insight to the design. The Flux was a different story (different shop too!). It did everything so well, I ordered one! That said, If you need custom sizes or just love titanium like your old bike, the Seven would be nice with proper set-up.I also really liked the fork, but felt it belonged on a longer travel frame.
Hope it helps.

Kush

blackcat29 said:
Just turned 50, and looking to treat myself to my first full suspension. I am confused by the various systems and would love some help sorting things out. I've been riding a Merlin hardtail since 92, I just ride XC 3-5 times a week, no racing, no big jumps, etc. The trails here in Park City are a bit rocky but not bad. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
 
#5 ·
Thanks Kush...like I said to tscheezy, this is what I hope to hear from those of you who have the experience/insight into these kinds of high caliber machines. Selecitng a bike is a complicated and somewhat confusing process, but it is exciting nonetheless. I appreciate the time you took in responding.
 
#6 ·
blackcat29 said:
Just turned 50, and looking to treat myself to my first full suspension. I am confused by the various systems and would love some help sorting things out. I've been riding a Merlin hardtail since 92, I just ride XC 3-5 times a week, no racing, no big jumps, etc. The trails here in Park City are a bit rocky but not bad. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
One thing that I'm surprised doesnt' surface more often with the Maverick design is the integrated rear shock. If it goes, you're ouf of a bike until it's fixed. The Flux uses a standard 6.5" eye to eye shock. If the shock blows, get a loaner or a cheapie so you can still ride. Universatlity is a very big thing for me. Another drawback to the Maverick camp is the funky seat tube angle. Admittedly, not so much an issue with a custom bike, but the seat tube angle is so wack, that if you raise the saddle a tad, it puts you that much further over the rear wheel stretched out more on the cockpit. There's not a lot of room for fudge factor there.

I, too, prefer the way a Horst Link bike rides compared to the monolink. It's a fantastic pedaling platform, especially with modern day platform type rear shocks. With regard to craftsmanship, both are very well made machines and each have a religious following. Any way at all you could test ride either design?
 
#7 ·
I rode the Palomino prior to purchasing my Turner Burner. I really wanted to like the Palomino, as I have been a Klein fan forever. Two test rides and it just didn't cut it. The entire bike felt strange, I believe in part due to the long chainstays and strange seat angle. There are guys out there that swear by the Maverick, but I wouldn't want one.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Two of us ended up with bloody knees (smashed into the DUC 32 forks) after the chain skipped on every hard pedaling effort on both the ML7 and 8. It was really strange and the 3 of us all stopped and looked the bike over trying to figure out why the gears were popping. It's not like we are a bunch of rookie wrenches, but for the life of us we couldn't get it sorted.

The bikes were quite plush, but really too much so. They squished and bobbed all over the place, seated or standing. I would have suspected the shocks to have been massively underpressurized (I think I remember the tech guy saying he was going to put 260psi in, and we ranged from 185 to 220 and he said he would err on the side of the heavy guy...), but all the Mav demo bikes I saw on the trails or around the pits seemed to be set up with a crazy amount of sag. Weird.

The most annoying thing was the coasting behavior though. When you stop pedaling and just coast through whoops or rough sections (i.e., any downhill), the monolink moves the cranks up and down in relation to the saddle. The pedal to seat distance changes as the suspension cycles and leads to a very odd and abnormal sensation. It is not such a big deal when you are standing, but seated coasting through rollers, which really ran the suspension through its range, was quite disconcerting.

I have a lot of respect for Paul Turner and his designs, so I was quite frankly very disappointed by my time on the Maverick bikes. I would like to spend more time on one at some point and figure out if both bikes were just set up like crap, but I have to admit my interest in them has diminished a lot because even if the pedal bobbing went away, the coasting thing would still bug me.
 
#9 ·
It sounds to me that the shock on the Mavs some of you rode was either underpressured (although the pressures you state sound like the shock was over pressured) or faulty. Shock set up is critical with the Monolink bikes and seems that if the pressure is off a little bit, it throws the whole design out of whack. Once the appropriate pressure/sag is set, the design is remarkably efficiant. If anything. a four bar bike is more "squishy" after proper set up is achieved. In addition, once the shock is set to you, the pedaling is incredible. You honestly do not notice the suspension working which in my mind is how a bike should ride. The monolink also slighty stiffens when out of the saddle, which aids the design in techincal climbing and out of the saddle acceleration instances, but there is no sacrifce in the suspension taking away activiness on a rooty/rocky climb. I own a 04 Palomino and the terrain I ride is very rooty, semi-rocky tight single track with a lot of power climbs, and I have not had a bad experience with the design to date.

I will agrree with the sentiments of the geometry because ever human is built differently and the Mav/Klein bikes can be finicky, but since your considering a Seven, they should be able to tweak it a little for you if need be, as well as considering different stem lengths to accomodate fit.

All in all, a rider should test ride bikes if possible, especially if your going to slap that kind of money down on a new bike. The Monolinks are VERY underrated, while they may require a little more attention in the setup process, the overall results in one of the best designs, IMO.
 
#10 · (Edited)
another option

blackcat29 said:
Just turned 50, and looking to treat myself to my first full suspension. I am confused by the various systems and would love some help sorting things out. I've been riding a Merlin hardtail since 92, I just ride XC 3-5 times a week, no racing, no big jumps, etc. The trails here in Park City are a bit rocky but not bad. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
IF is making a customer ti version of the Iron Horse Hollow Point design; before I settled on a Titus RX100 it was something I was considering. Oh and Titus also makes a custom ti Racer 100X.
 
#11 ·
certainly cannot add to what Tscheezy has already said......i think hands down, in the 4" travel range, the Flux is definitely THE bike right now.......having said that, I still would choose the Tracer (no longer made) since it had so much adjustability and had a higher bottom bracket which I loved......Intense really screwed up in my opinion when they went to VPeePee suspension.

My friends Flux is just awesome and I am so glad I recommended it to him and he too could not be happier.

Cheers
 
#12 ·
I haven't ridden the Seven, but have ridden a few Ti bikes. Here's an opinion that you can take or leave: Ti doesn't make the best material for full suspension bikes. The material naturally flexes, and instead of isolating the movement of the suspension to the linkage and shock, as most aluminum FS bikes do, you get some "extra" flex that doesn't make for the best ride. It also makes for a more expensive bike, too - with no real ride quality advantage for the cost.

Nearly all manufacturers make their FS bikes from aluminum for this reason. A few manufacturers (Seven, Titus, Moots, Dean to name a few) introduced a full suspension bike into their primarily Ti hardtail line when FS bikes began to really take off in sales. Ti is strong, light, and provides a compliant ride in a hardtail, and these manufacturers make some great hardtail bikes. But it should be telling that Titus, while still making Ti bikes, has moved most of their production to aluminum full suspension. It's what works, and what sells, for now.

Good luck.
 
#13 · (Edited)
titus or ventana costum (or burner)

blackcat29 said:
Just turned 50, and looking to treat myself to my first full suspension. I am confused by the various systems and would love some help sorting things out. I've been riding a Merlin hardtail since 92, I just ride XC 3-5 times a week, no racing, no big jumps, etc. The trails here in Park City are a bit rocky but not bad. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
if you want a costum geometry the way to go is with titus racer-x 100, ot moto-lite or ventana Salta. you get real costum geometry and superior construction or get standard geometry and great constrction if a production version fits you

if really you want a turner buy a burner 2004 at $900: it is identical in function, and otherwise. besides cosmetic variations, to the flux rip-off

i have not tried a duo but i liked the palomino, it pedals very well an d makes for \a great 4' bike. Only thing is the shock who knows if it will be around years from now
 
#14 ·
i'd like to hop in to defend the mav's here for a second (sorry to derail thread).
I was out riding w/2 dudes on single-pivot mavs yesterday (maybe the ML7s). both riders were kicking ass and speaking very highly of their bikes. I hopped on one for a parking lot ride and was surprised at how nice the bike felt. I'd still choose a horst link for strictly academic reasons, since I've yet to actually ride one, but I was definitely impressed w/the Mavs..the DUCs were pure buttah.
 
#15 ·
Accidental Endo said:
i'd like to hop in to defend the mav's here for a second (sorry to derail thread).
I was out riding w/2 dudes on single-pivot mavs yesterday (maybe the ML7s). both riders were kicking ass and speaking very highly of their bikes. I hopped on one for a parking lot ride and was surprised at how nice the bike felt. I'd still choose a horst link for strictly academic reasons, since I've yet to actually ride one, but I was definitely impressed w/the Mavs..the DUCs were pure buttah.
I want to second this defense of the Mavs here. I don't know how tscheezy got those impressions of pedal to seat distance changing. You're reading too much here and not taking it on a real trail I think. I heard about the Interbike demos and they were built during many 18+ hour days by some of the mechanics, so probably not up to par. I have NEVER had issues with ghost shifting, not on front or rear. Skipping chains are a sign of either worn chain or worn cassette -- don't blame it on the frame, you know that doesn't make sense. Turner are great bikes (I think along with Maverick and a small handful of others, are the BEST you can get), and somehow Turner fanatics have MTBR cornered...and very few Maverick riders lurk here. But like well said above, talk to anyone on a Maverick out on a trail, and they'll tell you it is the absolute best bike they've ever ridden. I've heard guys on Turners say that, but not nearly as many.

Now back to the original topic. If you are new to full suspension but have a lot of experience riding, you'll agree that what you want out of a bike is not having to fiddle with it to get it to work, you want one that just works with you. In my mind, part of that is not noticing the suspension working. You just ride.

You should be able to go to your local Park City Maverick dealer and demo a bike for a day. Take it on your favorite trail and see if you like it any better. Did you make it up that climb that you normally have to walk on? Are you not as beat up as you normally are after a few hours? Then make your decision.
 
#16 ·
MINImtnbiker said:
I don't know how tscheezy got those impressions of pedal to seat distance changing. You're reading too much here and not taking it on a real trail I think. Skipping chains are a sign of either worn chain or worn cassette -- don't blame it on the frame, you know that doesn't make sense.
Go back and re-read Tscheezy's post, his impressions (as mine) were from riding the bike. As far as the shifting issues, the problems with Maverick's shifting are well known. If the bikes were built by Maverick there is really no excuse for them to have shifting problems. If the manufacture can't make them work right, than how should anyone else be able to?
 
#17 · (Edited)
True, mono-link is good!

Accidental Endo said:
i'd like to hop in to defend the mav's here for a second (sorry to derail thread).
I was out riding w/2 dudes on single-pivot mavs yesterday (maybe the ML7s). both riders were kicking ass and speaking very highly of their bikes. I hopped on one for a parking lot ride and was surprised at how nice the bike felt. I'd still choose a horst link for strictly academic reasons, since I've yet to actually ride one, but I was definitely impressed w/the Mavs..the DUCs were pure buttah.
I agree, my experience with the palomino was very positive, i just have not spent much time on it to justify a complete 'endorsement". I forgot construction tat is wondeful.p

But about 4-bars:One should not forget that the only reason 4-bars work as well as they do in 4-5" versions is because of platform shocks. Take those out of the picture and pedaling efficiently even seated becomes a real issue. Platform comes at the price of reduced plushness and the beauty of attempts such as the mono-limk, vpp, dw-link (iron horse), giant maestro is that pedaling efficiency is engineered trying to avoid a compromise with the shock ( succesfull or not is a different story, in my experience vpp and palominoj were, i am very eager to try giant and iron-horse)

as far as the few, but very insistent, Turner fanatics like Tcheese it is useless to talk or listen ... there is just a bizarre brand obession that is frankly fairly pathetic and at the end annoying: for these fanatics there is just 1 bike on the planet and is the new incarnation of Christ. 4-bars have their big share of problems (brake-jack, inefficiency when standing, shifting, rigidity of the rear) and Turners are certanly no exception besides being unreasonably priced
 
#18 ·
CDMC said:
Go back and re-read Tscheezy's post, his impressions (as mine) were from riding the bike. As far as the shifting issues, the problems with Maverick's shifting are well known. If the bikes were built by Maverick there is really no excuse for them to have shifting problems. If the manufacture can't make them work right, than how should anyone else be able to?
I did, and I see that you rode a bike that was not set up specifically for you, was definately not adjusted right, etc. Problems with Maverick's shifting were before their D-Mount front derailleur. Talk to ANY Mav owner who has the D-Mount and every thing is fine.

Like I said, throw your preconceived notions aside, go to a LBS and take one out on a trail for a day, adjusted for you, then report back here. We'll all be much more willing to listen.

Davide - well said! I don't understand it either about Turners. FYI the geometry is a bit different, so the Klein rides a bit differenly than the Maverick. It feels like more of an XC race setup than the ML7.
 
#19 ·
You make valid points about setup, and that's why I wanted to try one again and have it dialed. I'm not sure why you think the bb to saddle distance would suddenly not change though. The bb is mounted in the monolink piece which rotates back and up. It simply moves as the bike goes through its travel. And Turner owners do tend to be enthusiastic about their bikes, but that does not preclude us from liking others. I totally dig the VPFree, 575, SuperMoto, and others. I simply had a terrible time on both Mavericks, and both displayed EXACTLY the same traits (spongy, ghost shift, changing bb-seat distance, etc: ML8 a bit more than the ML7).
 
#20 ·
Elizabeth Furnace on Saturday? That was me. :)

On the subject of setup, yeah I think the Maverick bikes are really touchy when it comes to setup. When first released, they were less so.

The 7.1 and 7.2 ML-7 revisions had coil-sprung and air-assisted rear shocks. That shock worked well over a wide, say 15 psi, variation in air pressure.

The most recent models come with air-sprung shocks that are much more touchy. If I'm not within 5 psi of optimal, my bike feels wrong. The problem being that the optimal setting changes based on independent variables such as fork setup and my fully-laden weight. On the plus side, the 7.3 damper reacts better than earlier models to small trail irregularities.

As for shifting, when the Maverick was first released, it worked quite well with the last generation XTR, which had a 46 tooth big ring. The original spec E-type derailleur simply does not work predictably with 44 tooth rings.

For a while, the Maverick guys modified XTR E-types to work with compact rings, but their solution was a temporary hack.

So, then they created a front derailleur mount to work in conjunction with a braze-on Shimano road triple derailleur. From what I understand, that works well with compact rings... I don't know, because I still run my XTR 46 tooth setup.

In Moab last spring, coming down Porcupine Rim, I did throw my chain about twenty times. That was super-frustrating, but I'm not sure that any bike without a chainguide would have held on any better.

Finally, and I've said this many times before, IMO it's hard to go wrong with any of today's high-end bikes. You have to ride them, though, to know which suits you best.

Some things I think are really nice about Maverick frames:

- They can take serious abuse without breaking
- They're relatively light
- They have neutral handling
 
#21 ·
Public Service Announcement

Davide said:
there is just a bizarre brand obession that is frankly fairly pathetic and at the end annoying: for these fanatics there is just 1 bike on the planet and is the new incarnation of Christ. 4-bars have their big share of problems (brake-jack, inefficiency when standing, shifting, rigidity of the rear) and Turners are certanly no exception besides being unreasonably priced...

...besides cosmetic variations, to the flux rip-off...

...over and over and over again: it is a very good bike, but overpriced and overated...

...For this people you have to say that Turner is the new the incarnation of the Christ. I find it ridiculous...

...It is a good bike (i have no plans to change it will last me 7-8 years) but it is overated and it is overpriced...

...as I said over and over it is a very good bike that is simply bizzarly overrated. I maintain that its price is just marketing: they would sell fewer 5-spots if it was priced (correrctly) $300-500 less (just look at the Burner: it ended up at Supergo because nobody wanted to buy at $1390 turner, now it is back, with the usual irrrelevant twicks, at $1800 as "the flux" and everybody wants it)...

...For th eprice of the 5-spot I am just being generous ballparking a more sensible price. I bought tmy frame well under retail in Nov 2003 only to see a few 2003 frame on sale for $ 1500. But besides sales and end-of-year deals the price of Turners is out of proportion (almost or as bad as Ellsworths): if they can sell the (outsourced) Titus Moto-lite for $1350 (or the built-in-house and much more complex Switchblade for $1650) I cannot see why they should sell the (outsourced) 5-spot for $550 more. The 5-spot is not built better (if anything details are worse) and it is VERY hard to justify a $550 difference, ... besides of course the chi-chi "exclusivity" factor and the "brand" thing...

...you would be getting almost the same bike at a premium price that is not really justified...

...a better alternative to the Turner is the Titus Motolite which is 4-5" adjustable (thus again with multiple personalities) and of comparable quality (Titus might have a little edge) with a great price ($1400!!). Same here: if cost is no object Titus is a real bike maker and they can build you a costum suspension bike...

...brand bikes like Turner, Ellsworth and even Intense have price tags that hardly correspond to their supposed increased quality...

...Turner and Ellsworth are overpriced compared to Ventana and Titus and I would stay away from them just because of that...*
These quotes are taken from a bulk of Davide's posts over the last 2 months (from newest to oldest). There does seem to be a trend here. Whenever, and wherever Turner is mentioned, he leaves the same statement (albeit worded differently over time). I'm posting all of this here to give you Davide fans a one-stop shop, and point out a very obvious and recurring bias.

Davide, we get it. We know where you are coming from. Stop the insanity. What I find most odd, and contradictory, is that recently you have chosen Titus to hang your hat on - a maker that sells bikes in the SAME PRICE RANGE as Turner (which seems to be the thrust of your seemingly endless crusade). It's just random and strange.

You have every right to make your point, ad nauseum, but it's also my right to stop listening. Consider it an honor to be the very first person on MTBR to make my ignore list. I just can't take it anymore. Happy trails...
 
#22 ·
MINImtnbiker said:
I did, and I see that you rode a bike that was not set up specifically for you, was definately not adjusted right, etc.

Like I said, throw your preconceived notions aside, go to a LBS and take one out on a trail for a day, adjusted for you, then report back here. We'll all be much more willing to listen.
Let's see if you can listen this time. I rode the Palomino on two seperate test rides. BOTH TIMES THE BIKES WERE SET UP FOR MY WEIGHT PER THE MANUFACTURE'S RECOMMENDATIONS. I even rode two seperate models, first the standard model (which was Black in 2003) and then the Race Disc, which was bright orange in 2003. I have been riding bikes for 25+ years and most of that time have done the work myself. I am very anal about setup so I think I can do something as simple as establish that the shock is set to the manufactures recommendations.

NOW READ CAREFULLY AGAIN. I rode the Palomino twice, because I love Kleins (I have two right now) and wanted to buy one. Both times the bike felt strange, overly stiff out of the saddle, I could feel the change in seat height when the suspension compressed over bumps while seated, and the balance felt strange. THE REASON I GAVE THE PALOMINO A SECOND TEST RIDE IS THAT I THOUGHT SOMETHING MIGHT HAVE BEEN WRONG WITH THE FIRST ONE AND THAT WAS WHY I DIDN'T LIKE IT.

JUST SO YOU ARE CLEAR. I went to buy a Palomino, wanted to like it, and decided not to buy it based on my Test ride. My thought at the time when I test rode other bikes was the Palomino wants to be like the Santa Cruz Blur but doesn't make it. The blur did what the Palomino didn't which was felt plush, but stiffened out of the saddle, without the pedal to seat height changing while seated and while feeling properly balanced.

Note I didn't not buy the Blur because the toptube was to short. After riding a Titus Racer X I was set to buy an RX 100 but at the time Titus was showing only a 23.4" and a 24.6" toptube in the lineup. I bought a burner instead because the toptube was available in the 24" I wanted.

Some people like the Maverick Design and swear by it, but many others, including myself have found that the ride does not match the hype. The bottom line is if you are considering the Maverick, Palomino, or Duo, you really need to have a good test ride (as you should with any bike) to see if it works for you.
 
#23 ·
Count Zero said:
In Moab last spring, coming down Porcupine Rim, I did throw my chain about twenty times. That was super-frustrating, but I'm not sure that any bike without a chainguide would have held on any better.
I rode that on a Turner XCE and never threw my chain. :D I did get a flat but that's probably because of the brakejack caused by the four bar suspension. :)
 
#25 ·
Why have we not mentioned price? Isn't a Seven duo $3000+? I think the bottom line is you don't really get what you pay for. I find FS Ti frames to be an astonishing waste of money. Their designs are typically inferior to top of the line Alu frames and the Ti offers no tangible performance benefit to justify the price. If anything the extra flex actually makes it inferior. Unless you really can't deal with the stock geometry of the Flux or simply a Ti geek I think you and and your wallet would be much happier with the price/performance of the Flux.
 
#26 · (Edited)
Flex

I'm 6'3" and 255 (at the moment) and ride a 2003 Seven Duo , zero flex that I can tell.
I have the coil/air shock and for my weight, use 70lbs pressure and the ride up and down hills is great.
I think you should, if possible try and ride a Duo that has been built for your height and weight. I know that you only have about 1/2 inch that you can play with in seatpost adjustment before you need to be on a different sized frame.
Hope this helps.
 
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