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  1. #1
    offroader
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    Top Ten Most overrated and overpriced bike stuff

    Edited:

    10) I9 Wheels < Anything that doesn't make as much noise as I9 hubs
    9) Chris King Hubs < Hope Pro II, American Classic
    8) Mavic Crossmax Wheels < Handmade wheels
    7) Shimano XTR Crankset < Shimano XT Crankset
    6) Sram XX Group < Single speed, 1x9 or 1x8
    5) Specialized S-Works Bikes < Titus, Ibis, Turner, Yeti, etc...
    4) Crank Brothers Eggbeater 4 Ti < eggbeater SL, Time
    3) Thomson Seatpost < Woodaman
    2) Thomson Stem < Richey 4-Axis
    1) Chris King Headset < Cane Creek
    Last edited by CupOfJava; 08-18-2009 at 07:14 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by CupOfJava
    10) I9 Wheels
    9) Chris King Hubs
    8) Mavic Crossmax Wheels
    7) Shimano XTR Crankset
    6) Sram XX Group
    5) Specialized S-Works Bikes
    4) Crank Brothers Eggbeater 4 Ti
    3) Thomson Seatpost
    2) Thomson Stem
    1) Chris King Headset
    please list your top 10 best products/prices

  3. #3
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    10. Delta 7 Arantix Frame
    9. Sram XX
    8. Crossmax SLR Wheelset
    7. No Tubes Race 7000 Wheelset
    6. XTR Rear Shadow Derailleur
    5. Race Face Next SL Crankset
    4. DT Swiss RWS Titanium Skewers
    3. DT Swiss XRC 100 Fork
    2. DT Swiss 240 Hubs
    1. Scrub Rotors

  4. #4
    Former Bike Wrench
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    Are these products you've actually used to determine that they are "overrated"?

    I get overpriced but it seems like claiming something is overrated would require actual experience with a particular product. For instance, it would be hard for me to say a Chris King headset is overrated when I have personally used one for 12 years without ever servicing it on my road bike. But it would be easy to say its overpriced for my mountain bike that I'll probably replace in a couple years.

  5. #5
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    Next 24" Power Climber full-suspension mountain bike. Walmart. $89.00.


  6. #6
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    This thread is useless without saying what your actual experience with the product is.

    I'll start,

    Panaracer greenlite tubes - Not only does performance sell 95g tubes made out of regular, patchable, rubber for only $7.99, but the valves in greenlites are so delicately mounted that you can usually pull them right off a brand new tube with virtually no force. The slightest jarring makes them leak from the valve area.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli
    Panaracer greenlite tubes - Not only does performance sell 95g tubes made out of regular, patchable, rubber for only $7.99, but the valves in greenlites are so delicately mounted that you can usually pull them right off a brand new tube with virtually no force. The slightest jarring makes them leak from the valve area.
    huh...i had great luck with those.

  8. #8
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    Bike Helmets

    High-end bike helmets simply do not warrant their price.

  9. #9
    Former Bike Wrench
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    Here's a few I personally have experience with

    -Specialized Tires...always rated high by the magazines but they always shed knobs for me rather quickly

    -ANY factory pre-built proprietary wheel...overpriced, uses hard to find parts, repairs usually entail sending the entire wheel back to manufacturer. Handbuilt wheels using stock parts can be made as strong and as light for usually less money and often be repaired while you wait.

    -Italian Saddles...I've found that Velo made saddles are just as comfortable, durable, and as light as saddles costing 5-20x more. I currently use the same Velo saddle on my road and on my mountain bike (labeled Nashbar and Sette respectively) that cost me less than $50 for both. A good pair of shorts makes a bigger difference.

    -Titanium spindles, axles, and skewers...1/2 the stiffness of steel, these are not good places to have flex when you really can't increase the "tube" size to compensate. There is a reason Shimano doesn't use it for these three applications.

  10. #10
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    Most overrated.........light stuff

    Most overpriced.........light stuff.

    I love light stuff but I have none.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by CupOfJava
    10) I9 Wheels
    9) Chris King Hubs
    8) Mavic Crossmax Wheels
    7) Shimano XTR Crankset
    6) Sram XX Group
    5) Specialized S-Works Bikes
    4) Crank Brothers Eggbeater 4 Ti
    3) Thomson Seatpost
    2) Thomson Stem
    1) Chris King Headset
    nah. some of that isnt that expensive and its good equipt (thompson, chris king)

    1. scrub rotors
    2. any number of ss parts like midleburn cranks and boone cogs
    3. tune hubs or any tune part for that matter
    4. king cage
    5. the arantix frame - ugly and expensive
    6. agreed with the specialized s-works stuff
    7.ceramic bearings, especially the xtr with ceramic
    8. shimano yumeya
    9. foes frames
    10. dt swiss forks

  12. #12
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    Chris King headsets? Really? I don't think so.

    I have an inch and an eighth King headset that I bought in 1992 that was originally a threaded headset and I converted a couple years later to threadled when that became the thing. It doesn't even say Chris King on the cups it's so old. In the past 17 years that headset has been on 4 XC hardtails, 3 dual suspension XC bikes, 1 Freeride bike, 2 DH rigs, 3 rigid SS, it now resides on my Slingshot SS that it has been on for the last 4 years but before that it spent 3 summers on my DJ/Lake jump bike (that's right, floating in the water). It has never been serviced and it spins like Butter! When a headset outlives a dozen or so bikes and only cost 50% more that an decent at best headset is it really overpriced and overrated? When you say something is overpriced and overrated it really should be and I can't see a 17 years old, 102g, gorgeous headset that has been used and abused that still works perfectly falling into that category. Can anyone else? What are the original posters qualifications? He can't afford this stuff?
    My Bikes Kick Ass!!!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattkock
    I have an inch and an eighth King headset that I bought in 1992 that was originally a threaded headset and I converted a couple years later to threadled when that became the thing. It doesn't even say Chris King on the cups it's so old. In the past 17 years that headset has been on 4 XC hardtails, 3 dual suspension XC bikes, 1 Freeride bike, 2 DH rigs, 3 rigid SS, it now resides on my Slingshot SS that it has been on for the last 4 years but before that it spent 3 summers on my DJ/Lake jump bike (that's right, floating in the water). It has never been serviced and it spins like Butter! When a headset outlives a dozen or so bikes and only cost 50% more that an decent at best headset is it really overpriced and overrated? When you say something is overpriced and overrated it really should be and I can't see a 17 years old, 102g, gorgeous headset that has been used and abused that still works perfectly falling into that category. Can anyone else? What are the original posters qualifications? He can't afford this stuff?
    Your story is the extreme exception. For at least 95% of the people who buy them, they never get anywhere close to their money's worth. Once you start really crunching the numbers, it rarely ever comes close to adding up. And it's not 50% more. CK's are ~$130 these days, you can get a very good HS for $40-45. That's 3 times more

    Maybe not over-rated (they are very nice), but a waste of money, IMO.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CupOfJava
    10) I9 Wheels
    9) Chris King Hubs
    8) Mavic Crossmax Wheels
    7) Shimano XTR Crankset
    6) Sram XX Group
    5) Specialized S-Works Bikes
    4) Crank Brothers Eggbeater 4 Ti
    3) Thomson Seatpost
    2) Thomson Stem
    1) Chris King Headset
    I disagree with a few items on the list:

    I have CK headsets on 6 of my 7 mountain bikes and both of my road bikes. Most of the headsets have been on a few bikes. I have never had to service any of them and they work as good as new.

    I have CK hubs on 3 bikes, Hadley's on 2 bikes, and I9 hubs on 2 bikes. I love my King hubs, but I think Hadley hubs offer more bang for the buck and similar performance. The I9 are sweet because they can be laced with anodized aluminum spokes in a variety of colors. I think they are definitely worth the money. Compared to a set of Zipp road bike wheels that can run up to $2000, their $800-900 price seems pretty reasonable (in relative terms).

    Thomson stems and seatposts are the strongest and most reliable on the market. Yet they only retail for $80-90.
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  15. #15
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    Ergon grips. Absolutely great for people who ride in a single fixed position and never descend steep grades.

    That's actually about it for personal experience. Most of the other $$ mtb stuff I have bought has been very good. Special mentions to Niner frames and AmClassic wheels.

    On the flipside, what about reasonably priced stuff that absolutely rocks?

    - Sette bars and posts
    - XT Hollowtech II cranks
    - X7 rear der
    - Panaracer Rampage
    - WTB saddles
    All problems in mountain biking can be solved by going faster, except the ones that are caused by going too fast.

  16. #16
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    Jones H-bar

    As much as I love my Jones titanium H-bar, I'm not sure they are worth $500+ for handlebars. My ON ONE Fleegles worked almost as good.
    Kokopelli Racing

    "Curb drops to flat, or curb drops to transition? There's a BIG difference there." Qfactor03

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkheadedbug
    Ergon grips. Absolutely great for people who ride in a single fixed position and never descend steep grades.
    I descend steep grades all the time with my GX-1's

  18. #18
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    Most boutique frames like Independent Fab and Merlin and Ellsworth. You guys are missing the point with some stuff though. I use Thomson posts and stems exclusively. They have outlasted several bikes and the beauty of them is they retain their value. I have sold used thomson parts for $65 dollars on ebay when I only paid 80-90 dollars and used it for a few years. King headsets are the same. I have had one black headset on 4 frames over 8 years. I got one at performance for 89 dollars on special using a coupon, used it for 2 years and sold it for 80 bucks. 9 dollars for 2 years service is pretty good.
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  19. #19
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    dw link!

    *floodgates of hell open*

  20. #20
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    overpriced is relative. I would love to have nearly all of the parts on the OPs list, but the fact is that most of them are beyond my budget and I regard them as too far down the road of diminishing returns. Not one of those parts is a 'lemon' in any real sense. To an extent I agree about crossmax wheels, as the cost of repair is high, but they are very light if one is looking for race wheels. I would put most vapourware in this category, eg. AX lightness, schmolke, and so on. BIG money for parts that fall to pieces...

  21. #21
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    Hmm, some of the above listed are my favourite parts.

    Ergon grips, removed wrist pain, made my ride mro fun and reduce chance of long term injury.

    Chris King Hub 150x12, only fast engaging 150x12 out there and STRONG.
    blown 2/3 nukeproofs in months with a fraction fo the grief i give the CK.
    Steep and £140 but worth it.

    CK headset - set and forget, for the £0 I paid for it great value.

    S-Works bikes, only got the experience of the old HT, but stiff light, strong and silly fast - sorry the issue is?

    High end helmets, OK they are overpriced, but the ventilation is worth the expense if you don't like a melted brain.


    The parts that have caused me the most grief.

    Niner RIP9 '07 - new stuff is great, but you would not believe the grief that bike caused.
    White brothers forks - why their seals can't hack uk cnditions is beyond me.
    Nukeproof - overpriced flimsy shite.
    Nukeproof - just stressing the hatred of the customer service as well as the products.

  22. #22
    The White Jeff W
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    dw link!

    *floodgates of hell open*
    <a href="http://s111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/jeffw13/?action=view&current=scare.gif" target="_blank"><img src="http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/jeffw13/scare.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket">

    </a><a href="http://s111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/jeffw13/?action=view&current=popcorn.gif" target="_blank"><img src="http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/jeffw13/popcorn.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
    No moss...

  23. #23
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    Thomson stuff is bomb proof. I've had the same seat post running completely problem free and unbroken for seven or eight years. The anodizing is going from being clamped in the repair stand, but aside from that it's killer.

    Also, if you had ever seen the testing they put their stuff through to get to catastrophic failure and then seen the common competitors relative lack of time in the same rig, I think you'd be impressed.
    "Bikes aren't fast--people are fast. Bikes are overpriced. It's an important distinction."---BikeSnob NYC

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    dw link!

    *floodgates of hell open*
    Agreed. It's no different, really, than any other system. Chumba can do the same thing with their bikes.

  25. #25
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    This is a great thread to really get people pissed off and defensive about what they dropped a lot of $$ on.

    I think there is a difference between asking if something is overpriced for what it is, as opposed to if it is worth the money. CK headsets and thomson seat posts, for example. They are clearly of a quality that you don't get for a cheaper price. In that sense, they are not overpriced. Are they WORTH that extra cost for the extra quality? That's where I think they come up short.

  26. #26
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    How about anything with the Ellsworth logo? Or maybe it's just ICT as an efficient pedaling platform?? I rode behind a guy on a smooth fire road the other day. He was on a Truth. He was bouncing up and down like a pogo stick with every pedal stroke, while l was enjoying a very efficient and "non-pogo like" ride on my Epic.

    Not spreading the Ellsworth hate...........just sayin' I think maybe their technology (ICT), and wheels, might be slightly overpriced for what you actually get in performance.......
    "Confidence is the feeling you have before you fully understand the situation".

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli
    This thread is useless without saying what your actual experience with the product is.

    I'll start,

    Panaracer greenlite tubes - Not only does performance sell 95g tubes made out of regular, patchable, rubber for only $7.99, but the valves in greenlites are so delicately mounted that you can usually pull them right off a brand new tube with virtually no force. The slightest jarring makes them leak from the valve area.
    I had one last for one race but another lasted for over two years. I've had terrible luck with Conti Super Sonic tubes and Michelin latex tubes but some people love them.

    The only parts I think are over rated are factory wheelsets. Mtnbiker already explained why.

  28. #28
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    9) Chris King Hubs < Hope Pro II
    8) Mavic Crossmax Wheels < Handmade wheels
    7) Shimano XTR Crankset < Shimano XT Crankset
    6) Sram XX Group < Single speed, 1x9 or 1x8
    5) Specialized S-Works Bikes < Titus, Ibis, Turner, Yeti, etc...
    4) Crank Brothers Eggbeater 4 Ti < eggbeater SL, Time
    3) Thomson Seatpost < Woodaman
    2) Thomson Stem < Richey 4-Axis
    1) Chris King Headset < Cane Creek
    Last edited by CupOfJava; 08-18-2009 at 07:07 PM.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by CupOfJava
    9) Chris King Hubs < Hope Pro II
    8) Mavic Crossmax Wheels < Handmade wheels
    7) Shimano XTR Crankset < Shimano XT Crankset
    6) Sram XX Group < Single speed
    5) Specialized S-Works Bikes < Titus, Ibis, Turner, Yeti, etc...
    4) Crank Brothers Eggbeater 4 Ti < eggbeater SL, Time
    3) Thomson Seatpost < Woodaman
    2) Thomson Stem < Richey 4-Axis
    1) Chris King Headset < Cane Creek S-3

    You have 1,2,3, and 7 upside down. Other than that I kind of agree.
    I have King ISO hubs and headset and they have lasted me a long time. The headset is been on 5 frames in the last ten years, it replaces an S-3 that lasted 4 month, and the hubs are on there third set of rims in the last six years. My Thomson stem has lasted through three bikes. My thomson seatpost is new, three years ago. I have heard of plenty of XT cranks bending, XTR no yet. Oh yeah I am clyde who rides hard.

    Just because it cost more does not make it overprices, you do get what you paid for with some of those product.
    If I disagree with you, it's because you are wrong.

  30. #30
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    Wow, this thread is a brilliant! User-generated button pushing!

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta
    This is a great thread to really get people pissed off and defensive about what they dropped a lot of $$ on.

    I think there is a difference between asking if something is overpriced for what it is, as opposed to if it is worth the money. CK headsets and thomson seat posts, for example. They are clearly of a quality that you don't get for a cheaper price. In that sense, they are not overpriced. Are they WORTH that extra cost for the extra quality? That's where I think they come up short.


    I'd say that Chris King headsets USE TO be the "must have" headset. Cane Creek is definitely on par with, if not exceeds, Chris King for a fraction of the price. NOT SAYING CK is junk, just not on a level above everyone else. People can spend money however they want, but when cutting costs, a CK headset is the first to go.


    I want to make something simple and sell it for tons of $$$. Throw a little bling on it and people will LOVE IT!!

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirthead
    How about anything with the Ellsworth logo? Or maybe it's just ICT as an efficient pedaling platform?? I rode behind a guy on a smooth fire road the other day. He was on a Truth. He was bouncing up and down like a pogo stick with every pedal stroke, while l was enjoying a very efficient and "non-pogo like" ride on my Epic.

    Not spreading the Ellsworth hate...........just sayin' I think maybe their technology (ICT), and wheels, might be slightly overpriced for what you actually get in performance.......
    Thats hilarious. Maybe if you actually realized that Spec and Ellsworth employ the same suspension type you'd think otherwise. Any bike can ride like a pogo, yes even your fabulous epic.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jlar
    Thats hilarious. Maybe if you actually realized that Spec and Ellsworth employ the same suspension type you'd think otherwise. Any bike can ride like a pogo, yes even your fabulous epic.
    Never said my Epic was fabulous. An actually, they are both WAY overpriced.
    "Confidence is the feeling you have before you fully understand the situation".

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirthead
    How about anything with the Ellsworth logo? Or maybe it's just ICT as an efficient pedaling platform?? I rode behind a guy on a smooth fire road the other day. He was on a Truth. He was bouncing up and down like a pogo stick with every pedal stroke, while l was enjoying a very efficient and "non-pogo like" ride on my Epic.

    Not spreading the Ellsworth hate...........just sayin' I think maybe their technology (ICT), and wheels, might be slightly overpriced for what you actually get in performance.......

    I think most boutique bikes are somewhat overpriced. But, I have to disagree with your assessment of Ellsworth / ICT. I currently have a TiRUTH, an Epiphany, a Moment, and a Rogue. Over the years, I've owned and ridden a ton of bikes. The reason I currently own 4 Ellsworth bikes is that I love the way they ride / handle / pedal. I think they pedal very efficiently, but obviously not completely bob-free, especially when standing and pedaling.
    Kokopelli Racing

    "Curb drops to flat, or curb drops to transition? There's a BIG difference there." Qfactor03

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    Chris King Hub 150x12, only fast engaging 150x12 out there and STRONG.
    No they aren't. Hadley has the same engagement speed and I9 has faster, both available in 150x12 (Hadley had one LONG before CK ever came out with 150mm).

    Larry
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  36. #36
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    Some of you guys need to take up a sport that's actually expensive. Like something involving motorcycles...almost anything involving motorcycles. Just so you appreciate how good you have it.

    Bicycle parts are not expensive. I am happy to spend good money for good parts. Even happier if those parts have a long tradition of quality and excellent customer service, and are made in a civilized country - i.e., not China.

  37. #37
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    Even happier if those parts have a long tradition of quality and excellent customer service, and are made in a civilized country - i.e., not China.
    AMERICA! WE SPEAK AMERICAN! F-YEAH!

    if you think motorcycles are expensive you should try planes.. if you think planes are expensive, try spacecraft.. nuclear reactors.. buying countries etc etc. of course something is always more expensive.

    the united states has some of the least civilized people in the world..

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto

    the united states has some of the least civilized people in the world..
    MTBR is living proof of that

  39. #39
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    CK parts = you get what you pay for. They outlast nearly everything else on the market in my experience.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by 88 rex
    I'd say that Chris King headsets USE TO be the "must have" headset. Cane Creek is definitely on par with, if not exceeds, Chris King for a fraction of the price. NOT SAYING CK is junk, just not on a level above everyone else. People can spend money however they want, but when cutting costs, a CK headset is the first to go.
    There was a discussion I read somewhere that Cane Creek owns the patent to the conical split ring that goes into the top race. CK didn't want to pay to use the patent. As a result the Cane Creek is a better designed headset. I'm going from memory here, but the gist of it is that conical, split ring makes the Cane Creek a better headset. And, since I can buy a bunch of Cane Creek headsets to one CK headset, to me, CK headsets are overrated and overpriced.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    AMERICA! WE SPEAK AMERICAN! F-YEAH!

    if you think motorcycles are expensive you should try planes.. if you think planes are expensive, try spacecraft.. nuclear reactors.. buying countries etc etc. of course something is always more expensive.

    the united states has some of the least civilized people in the world..
    I'm not American.

    Any normal working person can afford a motorcycle - context. Of course I'm talking about adults here.

    Civilized = reasonable labour laws and human rights.

    I think with this level of simplification even you should be able to understand the point I was trying to make.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commodus
    I'm not American.

    Any normal working person can afford a motorcycle - context. Of course I'm talking about adults here.
    I sure wish I could afford a motorcycle.
    "The original concept of freeriding was that there was no set course, goals or rules to abide by. "
    Mountain Riders

  43. #43
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    the funny thing is that these threads keep popping up. lets cut to the chase:

    people whom can afford paying top dollar see nothing wrong with paying those prices.

    people whom are pro feel that the end result is worth the cash.

    people whom want to be like the jones will pay anything for anything if it makes them look good.

    beginners will pay 1k+ for a bike they ride for a month (off and on) because people in this forum said so.

    all department store bikes suck, unless its all you can afford and you dont care what anyone says.

    out of the 3m pieces sold 4 people think its junk.

    the person that said your bike sucks has never ridden before.

    you never used that before, so how can you say it sucks?

    mtb suck
    dh sucks
    xc sucks
    AM sucks
    endurance sucks
    any other name you can come up with for riding a bike off road sucks
    29'ers suck
    26'ers suck
    650b sucks
    does anyone still ride 24?

    road bike people suck and are rude. oh wait half the people that are on mtb's ride road to and are just as rude.

    mx bikes have nothing to do with mtb's other then they ride em off road have two tires and....

    i still use my murry baja i dont see why yo would want all that new fangle dangled crap anyways

    i paid 5k for my bike. beat that!
    um i paid 6k for the same bike haha i win
    um i bought the same bike on ebay for $200
    i bought the same bike signed by elvira for 20k

    i have a booger want to see it?

    my V-brakes are solid gold
    mine are light
    v-brakes suck
    i have solid gold disc brakes
    my v-brakes are lighter
    i have the lightest brakes ever made
    can you tell me why my brakes broke?
    drum brakes are better
    where did you buy them?
    wal mart
    bwahahahaha
    Quote Originally Posted by a stoned guy with a beer in his hand eyeballing your sisters bike
    "i fit my bike to fit me;not for looks...nice did you buy that bike from jc whitney?" Stoner Island 1984

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogod
    the funny thing is that these threads keep popping up. lets cut to the chase:

    people whom can afford paying top dollar see nothing wrong with paying those prices.

    people whom are pro feel that the end result is worth the cash.

    people whom want to be like the jones will pay anything for anything if it makes them look good.

    beginners will pay 1k+ for a bike they ride for a month (off and on) because people in this forum said so.

    all department store bikes suck, unless its all you can afford and you dont care what anyone says.

    out of the 3m pieces sold 4 people think its junk.

    the person that said your bike sucks has never ridden before.

    you never used that before, so how can you say it sucks?

    mtb suck
    dh sucks
    xc sucks
    AM sucks
    endurance sucks
    any other name you can come up with for riding a bike off road sucks
    29'ers suck
    26'ers suck
    650b sucks
    does anyone still ride 24?

    road bike people suck and are rude. oh wait half the people that are on mtb's ride road to and are just as rude.

    mx bikes have nothing to do with mtb's other then they ride em off road have two tires and....

    i still use my murry baja i dont see why yo would want all that new fangle dangled crap anyways

    i paid 5k for my bike. beat that!
    um i paid 6k for the same bike haha i win
    um i bought the same bike on ebay for $200
    i bought the same bike signed by elvira for 20k

    i have a booger want to see it?

    my V-brakes are solid gold
    mine are light
    v-brakes suck
    i have solid gold disc brakes
    my v-brakes are lighter
    i have the lightest brakes ever made
    can you tell me why my brakes broke?
    drum brakes are better
    where did you buy them?
    wal mart
    bwahahahaha

    well he left out one important thing: Full Suspension sucks. But to change to a postive note: Steel hardtails rule.

  45. #45
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    please do not use 'whom' unless you know why you are using it

    hint: you're doing it wrong

    and yes, steel hardtails rule
    All problems in mountain biking can be solved by going faster, except the ones that are caused by going too fast.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkheadedbug
    please do not use 'whom' unless you know why you are using it

    hint: you're doing it wrong

    and yes, steel hardtails rule

    Agreement already, what a friendly place.
    Other things that don't suck and are not overpriced: singletrack

  47. #47
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    No one mentioned 29ers?

  48. #48
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    Well I don't know about over rated stuff, but I can say that I still use a bottom pull LX front der. and a threaded LX headset from around '94/'95. Both still work perfectly. The bottom cartridge bearing in the headset even separated, but I just repacked it with grease, and it is still going strong.

    I still have a 1" quill stem from Controltech on my bike that is rock solid too.

    I fully agree that the Sette stuff is quality too.

  49. #49
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    oh your right i forgot about people whom like to correct grammar
    and yes FS and hardtails steel, aluminum or titanium suck.

    check out the booger ball


    and so we stay on subject

    check out the bling!

    yes thats gold plated
    Quote Originally Posted by a stoned guy with a beer in his hand eyeballing your sisters bike
    "i fit my bike to fit me;not for looks...nice did you buy that bike from jc whitney?" Stoner Island 1984

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commodus
    I am happy to spend good money for good parts. Even happier if those parts have a long tradition of quality and excellent customer service, and are made in a civilized country - i.e., not China.

    I am happy to spend good time reading people's good posts. Even happier if those people have a long tradition of quality and excellent prose, and are civilized - i.e., not Commodus.



    If any nation can lay claim to the term civilised, with thousands of years' worth of largely contiguous culture, poetry, art, and philosophical thinking, i'm betting on china.

    i'm guessing that you haven't spent much time in china, maybe you should check it out some time, it's actually pretty good. anyway, perhaps no harm in choosing your words a bit more carefully, because when you think about it, calling a place uncivilised carries quite a bit of negative weight, and comes across as a little racist, which people don't think is so cool these days...
    Alas, that the longest hill
    Must end in a vale

    Henry Charles Beeching 1859-1919

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsmoto
    dw link!

    *floodgates of hell open*
    You have just never ridden one.

  52. #52
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    bike lights

    Why are bike lights so exspensive? 400-700 dollars for a light, yea right. Thank you deal extreme for the rockin 900 lumen $86 dollar light.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockadileSX
    You have just never ridden one.
    Don't need to. We know marketing BS when we see it. My URT is just as good.

    Oh, well, fools and there money are easily parted. Just another reason for the homers to replace their turners.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider
    Why are bike lights so exspensive? 400-700 dollars for a light, yea right. Thank you deal extreme for the rockin 900 lumen $86 dollar light.
    My buddy bought 2 of them. He just ordered 4 more for some other guys after they saw how bright that thing is.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by seadna
    I am happy to spend good time reading people's good posts. Even happier if those people have a long tradition of quality and excellent prose, and are civilized - i.e., not Commodus.



    If any nation can lay claim to the term civilised, with thousands of years' worth of largely contiguous culture, poetry, art, and philosophical thinking, i'm betting on china.

    i'm guessing that you haven't spent much time in china, maybe you should check it out some time, it's actually pretty good. anyway, perhaps no harm in choosing your words a bit more carefully, because when you think about it, calling a place uncivilised carries quite a bit of negative weight, and comes across as a little racist, which people don't think is so cool these days...
    Heh, it's cute that you get so bothered over my little post, but are so quick to defend a nation with a miserable human rights record and an even worse labour-relations policy.

    If this country was so civilised, they wouldn't treat their workers so poorly. But I think you are probably not so retarded as to so completely miss my point, and are just looking for an e-fight.

  56. #56
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    How about overpriced trailer stuff?

    1) BOB waterproof bag @ $65. A Rubbermaid plastic bin at $7 fits right in the trailer and works great. Pop the lid and the access is wide open. Waterproof too.

  57. #57
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    oh yea $500 Chariot and Burley trailers... Got my Schwinn trailer at Costco for $110 shipped. It's now selling for $200.

  58. #58
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    Should I feel guilty that my bike has 5 of the 10 items originally listed?
    1. I9 ( LOVE THEM!)
    2. 4ti Pedals (Superlight, blingy and NO I didn't pay retail. Do I worry about the 185lbs limit? No--I ride XC, weight 150 and they're on a FS bike
    3. Thomson MASTERPEICE post. Strongest and one of the lightest on the market
    4. Thomson X4 Stem - Strongest period
    5. King HS - Will outlast your frame.

    ALl of these items I bought used at VERY reasonable prices. I think somebody mentioned it but by the time I'm ready to move onto a different bike or different parts I will get all my money back and likely more.

    In my mind most of the high zoot items are worth the initial investment. You'll take the smallest loss when you resale.

  59. #59
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    lol maybe people should lease bikes. just like cars. i see alot of people buy bikes all the time. kinda like my neighbor, has had about 20 cars in the last 10 years. all brand new. lol im still driving my 60 chevy appache.
    Quote Originally Posted by a stoned guy with a beer in his hand eyeballing your sisters bike
    "i fit my bike to fit me;not for looks...nice did you buy that bike from jc whitney?" Stoner Island 1984

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by yangpei
    I think most boutique bikes are somewhat overpriced. But, I have to disagree with your assessment of Ellsworth / ICT. I currently have a TiRUTH, an Epiphany, a Moment, and a Rogue. Over the years, I've owned and ridden a ton of bikes. The reason I currently own 4 Ellsworth bikes is that I love the way they ride / handle / pedal. I think they pedal very efficiently, but obviously not completely bob-free, especially when standing and pedaling.
    Isn't the Tiruth exactly the same frame as one of the Merlin ones, only about a grand more expensive?

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesergeant
    In my mind most of the high zoot items are worth the initial investment. You'll take the smallest loss when you resale.
    Not if you use it til it breaks

    I agree about the Thompson's being the strongest, but I think they're too strong... After getting a Thompson seatpost I bent the rails on 3 saddles in a year. I've since switched posts... I can't afford to keep buying saddles!

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesergeant
    In my mind most of the high zoot items are worth the initial investment. You'll take the smallest loss when you resale.
    As a percent of initial cost, yes, but I have sold 2 Thomson stems and a Thomson post, and I'd say I took an average hit of $20-25 each. That's pretty much what the cheaper alternatives cost to start with, and I don't need to sell them. Now I have a box of stems to play around with my cockpit setup when I build up a new frame.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogod
    lol maybe people should lease bikes. just like cars. i see alot of people buy bikes all the time. kinda like my neighbor, has had about 20 cars in the last 10 years. all brand new. lol im still driving my 60 chevy appache.
    This is not a bad idea. I think in a way bikes are kind of like guitars. People think a new one will make them better at it...

    I am finally getting around to replacing my ti XC bike from 1995.
    When I built that one up I went with xtr derailleurs gripshift and a race face crankset and bb. All top of the line stuff at the time.

    It's still on the original drive train. It still shifts flawlessly. Granted I rarely ride i the mud and I clean my drivetrain after each long ride or every couple of rides at least.
    The fork and geometry however are not really all that great for me anymore though.

    My point is that I see it as worth it to buy the best parts you can and then maintain them. They can last a lot longer than people think with proper maintenance.

    The new bike is ti fs and will have a similar build to the old one. I imagine I will still be riding it in a decade. Unless the silly carbon/aluminum rear end breaks....
    And you can bet it will have a CK headset. XTR ders. A race face crank etc etc etc...

  64. #64
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    i just saw that Indie Fab is now asking 3250 for the ti deluxe frame. i've had a bit of a hiatus from the cycling world, but do people actually buy stuff like that at retail?! that's got to be at least double what it's worth.

  65. #65
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    I have 6 things listed in the o.p , and love them . Yes they are expensive but when compared to motocross , quadding , and cars it doesn`t seem too bad .

    Overated ? No I don`t think so , the parts listed in the op are very high quality and have been proven . CK , Thomson .........................Ti frames "which I saw a reply" will easily outlast you .
    Fu(k cancer

    thelonebiker.com

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesergeant
    Should I feel guilty that my bike has 5 of the 10 items originally listed?

    2. 4ti Pedals (Superlight, blingy and NO I didn't pay retail. Do I worry about the 185lbs limit? No--I ride XC, weight 150 and they're on a FS bike
    Here's my wife's 2 ti that came apart at mile 80 of the Cascade CreamPuff.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  67. #67
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    I tore off the beater part of my pedals too. It was still clipped into my shoe but detached from the axle. That sucked trying to ride home when all I had to put my foot on was a little stick.
    I might sell all of my pedals and get some XTRs.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by s4gobabygo
    i just saw that Indie Fab is now asking 3250 for the ti deluxe frame. i've had a bit of a hiatus from the cycling world, but do people actually buy stuff like that at retail?! that's got to be at least double what it's worth.

    That's pretty typical for high end ti. You will probably find similar prices from Seven, Moots, Eriksen, Black Sheep, etc. A Jones Spaceframe (frame w/ truss fork) retails for $5500. And yes, people (myself included) are paying retail for these frames.
    Kokopelli Racing

    "Curb drops to flat, or curb drops to transition? There's a BIG difference there." Qfactor03

  69. #69
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    One of the most over priced things has to be adjustable seatposts.......yet I am on my second one and will not ever own a trail / AM bike withour one.

  70. #70
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    After reading all this, I've come to the conclusion that 'overpriced and overrated' refers to "HOW MUCH?!? OUTRAGEOUS, I'D NEVER PAY THAT FOR THIS!"

    So here's my list:

    10.)Crank Brothers wheels
    9.) Merlin anything
    8.) Avantix frames
    7.) Specialized bikes, especially S-Works
    6.) King ti headset
    5.) Ti Eggbeaters
    4.) THE bar/stem combo
    3.) SRAM XX
    2.) Crossmax SLR
    1.) The following cranksets: XTR, RF Next, Rotor, and Hammerschmidt
    A bike is the only drug with no bad side effects....

  71. #71
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    This is a retarded thread. OP needs to lay of the crack pipe. Chris King is bombproof, Thomson is the best. and Mavic Crossmax SLR light and bombproof, XTR cranks are amazing.
    Yes i own and ride this stuff. King headset is 10 yrs and still amazing. Some people just don't want to spend that kind money and we call them haters!!

    Whatever

  72. #72
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    paying over 1500 for a bike and not riding the tour de france or some other televised bike race.
    Quote Originally Posted by Juggler2
    There is only one Bike Forum standard... quality is directly proportional to money spent.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoutcat
    10. dt swiss forks
    Having owned Fox, Rockshox, Magura and Manitou forks I don't think the 2008 DT Swiss EXC 150 was overpriced. With the 20mm through axle it weighed 1730g, less then the revelation 130mm QR it replaced (DT fork had an uncut steerer tube, revelation had a cut steerer tube). The fork was really stiff even comparing to the Pike I had before the revelation. The price was a bit more then the equivalent competitions products, but you are actually getting quite a lot for your money (the suspensions feeling was also great).

    Somehow I think most people have not tried the products they are bad mouthing, and can not understand that different people have different needs.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spawne32
    paying over 1500 for a bike and not riding the tour de france or some other televised bike race.
    Yes, I agree. There should be some kind of law dictating how people should spend their money. How dare they buy something nice with their own money.

    This whole thread makes me smile.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spawne32
    paying over 1500 for a bike and not riding the tour de france or some other televised bike race.
    Ohhh-kaayyy...when the price of admission, bikewise, in the TDF is about 6x that --

    I've got about $2K in mine, been workn like a charm for almost three years now -- first time in my life, and I'm 50! NOTHING has ever treated me as well. I'm a little hard on frames, just due to my Clyde status.

    Don't ride w/ me, the envy will eat you up.....
    A bike is the only drug with no bad side effects....

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by civil
    Yes, I agree. There should be some kind of law dictating how people should spend their money. How dare they buy something nice with their own money.

    This whole thread makes me smile.
    i didnt say there should be a law dictating how people spend their money, way to blow my statement out of proportion. Do you vote in a similar manner? All im stating is that i think its retarded to buy a bike over 1500 dollars for recreational use, the differences between a bike that costs 1500 vs 2500 are marginal at best, where as the quality gap between a 150 dollar bike and a 500 dollar bike is HUGE.
    Quote Originally Posted by Juggler2
    There is only one Bike Forum standard... quality is directly proportional to money spent.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigpedaler
    After reading all this, I've come to the conclusion that 'overpriced and overrated' refers to "HOW MUCH?!? OUTRAGEOUS, I'D NEVER PAY THAT FOR THIS!"

    So here's my list:

    10.)Crank Brothers wheels
    9.) Merlin anything
    8.) Avantix frames
    7.) Specialized bikes, especially S-Works
    6.) King ti headset
    5.) Ti Eggbeaters
    4.) THE bar/stem combo
    3.) SRAM XX
    2.) Crossmax SLR
    1.) The following cranksets: XTR, RF Next, Rotor, and Hammerschmidt

    why is the hammerschmidt over rated? i think its an awesome piece of kit. if i had a bike with iscg tabs i would have one by now.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spawne32
    the differences between a bike that costs 1500 vs 2500 are marginal at best,
    Totally disagree, but that just makes me $1,000 poorer.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spawne32
    i didnt say there should be a law dictating how people spend their money, way to blow my statement out of proportion. Do you vote in a similar manner? All im stating is that i think its retarded to buy a bike over 1500 dollars for recreational use, the differences between a bike that costs 1500 vs 2500 are marginal at best, where as the quality gap between a 150 dollar bike and a 500 dollar bike is HUGE.
    Your speaking about things you don't understand dude!!, ie. For $1500 u get a entry fs bike with rs suspension like a Tora and basic rear shock and mech brake usually, and at 2500 you can have Fox suspension and hydro brakes and nicer drivetrain.
    You are retarded for that statement and I am not for buying a good quality bike over 1500. To each his own man, Enjoy what you got and don't hate what you don't got.

  80. #80
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    wow, just wow

    in regards to the whole thread

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spawne32
    i didnt say there should be a law dictating how people spend their money, way to blow my statement out of proportion. Do you vote in a similar manner?
    You obviously missed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spawne32
    All im stating is that i think its retarded to buy a bike over 1500 dollars for recreational use, the differences between a bike that costs 1500 vs 2500 are marginal at best,
    That's because you don't know any better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover Nick
    wow, just wow

    in regards to the whole thread
    Yeah, but what else am I going to do at 11pm?

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker72
    Are these products you've actually used to determine that they are "overrated"?

    I get overpriced but it seems like claiming something is overrated would require actual experience with a particular product. For instance, it would be hard for me to say a Chris King headset is overrated when I have personally used one for 12 years without ever servicing it on my road bike. But it would be easy to say its overpriced for my mountain bike that I'll probably replace in a couple years.
    I've gone 16 years on my King headset and that was a mountian bike that was raced and trainned on and it had one XT grouppo and went through 3 XTR grouppos and still had that one head set. 5 sets of wheels went through that bike too. so my cost was about $5.60/ year to have that headset so not a bad deal.

  83. #83
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    I thought the cheap lights (900 lumen) was a good tip to people who do that type of thing. Thanks!

  84. #84
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    Really in no particular order.

    10) Suspension Forks
    9) Rear Suspension
    8) MTBR
    7) Disc Brakes
    6) More Than One Gear
    5) Anything Aluminum
    4) Anything Carbon
    3) 29" Wheels
    2) Biopace Chainrings
    1) Riser Bars

  85. #85
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    I have XTR cranks right now on my Scott Spark, they're a pain to set up and use proprietary rings. Except for the weight, I prefer my XT cranks..

    I've been using Cane Creek headsets for years.. They're bomb proof. I paid about $25 each for them. I have them on all my bikes at least 6 installed. Sorry but IMO the King headsets are an eyesore.. gawdy looking. Kinda like having chrome spinners on your 1999 honda hatchback.

    Had a couple Thomson Stems till bolts on one of them locked up and sheered the ball off the end of my hex tool. I had to use a drill to cut the stem off my bike. It was a bad design and that's probably why the newer stems don't use the same system to lock the stem to the steerer.

    I've gone through a bunch of Thomson seatposts. I still have one sitting around because I'm too lazy to sell it. Never had a problem with them, but I never had a problem with my Richey Comp, Richey WSC, Redline, FSA SL-K, SDG I-beam, or generic seatpost either. I never paid over $50 for any of those.. I certainly wouldn't pay $90 for a Thomson.

    As for Sram XX... why 10 gears when 1 is good enough? I converted most of my bikes to 1x9, 2x9, or single speed. I hardly use more than 1 or 2 gears on any ride.

    Specialized S-Works... I used to own a Specialzed Stumpjumper.. I like my Titus and Scott, and my cheepo redlines just as much and for half or more of the price with better components and since Specialized started using proprietary parts better parts.

    I used to sweat the Mavic Crossmax till I realized getting it fixed and trued is harder than a custom handmade wheels. Plus it weighs more and is twice as expensive.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by CupOfJava

    I've gone through a bunch of Thomson seatposts. I still have one sitting around because I'm too lazy to sell it. Never had a problem with them, but I never had a problem with my Richey Comp, Richey WSC, Redline, FSA SL-K, SDG I-beam, or generic seatpost either. I never paid over $50 for any of those.. I certainly wouldn't pay $90 for a Thomson.
    Yeah, I've had 2 thomson posts. I do admire the quality of the machining, but there has been no difference in functionality over any cheap post I have bought.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrantB
    Thomson stuff is bomb proof. I've had the same seat post running completely problem free and unbroken for seven or eight years. The anodizing is going from being clamped in the repair stand, but aside from that it's killer.

    Also, if you had ever seen the testing they put their stuff through to get to catastrophic failure and then seen the common competitors relative lack of time in the same rig, I think you'd be impressed.
    I've had a truvativ xr post last 5 years now that's problem free. It will be going 6 years in a few months. I'm sure it retailed for much less than a Thomson, but I do hear those products are great.

  88. #88
    Rod
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commodus
    Heh, it's cute that you get so bothered over my little post, but are so quick to defend a nation with a miserable human rights record and an even worse labour-relations policy.

    If this country was so civilised, they wouldn't treat their workers so poorly. But I think you are probably not so retarded as to so completely miss my point, and are just looking for an e-fight.
    Are you going to go and spread our religion, culture or lack thereof, and Wal-Mart, wait they have that already, to China as well when you try to civilize them. White man's burden.

  89. #89
    Rod
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta
    Yeah, I've had 2 thomson posts. I do admire the quality of the machining, but there has been no difference in functionality over any cheap post I have bought.
    I agree.

  90. #90
    is buachail foighneach me
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover Nick
    Really in no particular order.


    8) MTBR

    concur.

  91. #91
    Bicyclochondriac.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover Nick
    8) MTBR
    Rover Nick
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    How much are they charging you for that?

  92. #92
    is buachail foighneach me
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta
    Rover Nick
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    How much are they charging you for that?
    time is priceless and it's hard to resist wasting it here for some reason.

  93. #93
    Bicyclochondriac.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sean salach
    time is priceless and it's hard to resist wasting it here for some reason.
    True, if time is money, then this site has cost me more than I can bear to contemplate.

  94. #94
    singletrack mind
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    you're not wrong...well, here's to all the time wasting ludraman that inhabit this forum
    Alas, that the longest hill
    Must end in a vale

    Henry Charles Beeching 1859-1919

  95. #95
    Don't ride a Trek anymore
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    How bout someone makes a thread entitled "best value bike stuff"? and people can only mention things they have used... I think that would be a little more beneficial to most folks here, rather than just bashing the things you cant afford or vehemently supporting the things you bought? We all know that Thompson and Chris King make some nice products, but not everyone here can afford a $2-300 hub or a $100 stem...

  96. #96
    Motion activated
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    1) Retro Grouches
    Happiness is a warm 2 stroke.

  97. #97
    offroader
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trek7000rider
    How bout someone makes a thread entitled "best value bike stuff"? and people can only mention things they have used... I think that would be a little more beneficial to most folks here, rather than just bashing the things you cant afford or vehemently supporting the things you bought? We all know that Thompson and Chris King make some nice products, but not everyone here can afford a $2-300 hub or a $100 stem...
    I got one.. Fox Forx. Worth the 20-25% price difference over Rock Shox IMO.. they're so plush and feel so good!

    And did I list some good value parts?

    10) I9 Wheels < Anything that doesn't make as much noise as I9 hubs
    9) Chris King Hubs < Hope Pro II, American Classic
    8) Mavic Crossmax Wheels < Handmade wheels
    7) Shimano XTR Crankset < Shimano XT Crankset
    6) Sram XX Group < Single speed, 1x9 or 1x8
    5) Specialized S-Works Bikes < Titus, Ibis, Turner, Yeti, etc...
    4) Crank Brothers Eggbeater 4 Ti < eggbeater SL, Time
    3) Thomson Seatpost < Woodaman
    2) Thomson Stem < Richey 4-Axis
    1) Chris King Headset < Cane Creek[/QUOTE]

    I have experience with every product listed here. I've owned most of them or have friends who have owned them for a long time.

  98. #98
    Currywurst
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    light, cheep, strong......pick 2

  99. #99
    Red Rider
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    The top ten things I've bought and actually used so I can have an opinion on them...

    1. 2007 Cannondale Prophet 5 w/Lefty Max (best bike I've owned considering my two previous bikes -Motobecane Fantom 3.0 200? and a 1996 Giant Sedona fully rigid).

    2. Mavic Crosstrails for the Lefty - decent weight and tubeless for the price IMHO

    3. Ergon Grips - Have a set on my mountain bike and my commuter and I do feel a big difference especially on long days and hard efforts in the saddle.

    4. Panaracer Fire XC Pro 2.1 - On my second set. Good price for an awesome, all-around tire, comes in colors if you're into matching. Also offered in wire bead, kevlar and tubeless.This tire has the most ratings on mtbr.com (over 700). My only gripe is that they don't have a 2.3 size for this line.

    5. Avid BB7 - Awesome stopping power and easy adjustability in a mechanical disc brake. May try hydraulics in the future but my BB7s have never failed me even in extreme downhill sections, mud, water crossings and riding at high speeds on fire roads so not in any hurry.

    6. Crank Brothers Eggbeater C and Candy C SE pedal - Started out with the Eggbeater C but wanted a little more platform for when my foot wasn't totally clipped in so I went with the Candys. Decent weight, good price, sheds mud easily, cleans up quickly and easy to maintain. Can't see myself paying 3x & 4x the price for the Ti stuff that has rider weight limits and that only shaves a few grams.

    7. Attivo ? gel saddle - A really cheap saddle I purchased at Jensonusa.com. Leather covered gel with the cut out for the 'state' Well made, comfortable and has survived crashes, getting rained on, mud, farts and long rides. Only showing moderate wear and I've owned it for 3 years. Unfortunately, Jenson no longer carries it. Best $30 I ever spent.

    8. SRAM X7 & X9 - Good solid shifting for price and I really like the design of the SRAM rear deraileurs. May upgrade to XO but only if it wears out.

    9. Forte' tubes - Cheap tubes, what more can I say?

    10. Bell Solar Sport Helmet - This is a helmet I purchased for my road bike. Paid $19.99 on sale. 17 vents and weighs less than most $150 - $250 helmets. The icing on the cake was that it matched my road bike perfectly.
    RIDE OR DIE...

  100. #100
    Red Rider
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    I say if you have the money and can justify the cost, spend it. If you don't, find a cost-effective alternative.

    The thing that always amazes me about some guys I see riding the more expensive bikes is the way they baby them. Now I don't suggest tossing your $12,000 Scott off the Empire State building to see if it will break but you better believe that I put every bike I've ever owned through the paces in it's intended application. Take advantage of your product's warranty if you have one in the event of the product's failure.

    But seriously guys, ride what you want and enjoy it. If money was no object, I would own that $12,000 Scott Genius Limited.
    RIDE OR DIE...

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