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Saber vs. Enduro Geomerty

1K views 7 replies 4 participants last post by  jp3d 
#1 ·
I have an '02 Enduro S-Works that I been riding extensively sense late '02. I love this bike but am cosidering getting a new frame in the next few months. I posted something along these lines several months ago and based on my short list several people recommended the Azonic Saber. So now that I'm back on this topic again in my life I am seriously considering the Saber. The price is right and it has what I'm looking for 5"-6" of travel, coil shock, 4-bar, Host (like?), and the added bonus of a traditional triangle front.

Tonight I was looking into the geometry differences between the Saber and my current Enduro. I ride a medium Enduro and have a short 29" inseam, but seem to ride with my seat high for someone with stumpy 29" legs. The only numbers for the Saber I could find were on the Wheel World site.

Saber:
Head Angle = 69
Seattube Angle = 72.5
Effective top tube = 558mm
Wheel Base = 1100mm
Chainstay Length = 130mm

Enduro:
Head Angle = 70.5
Seattube Angle = 69
Effective top tube = 584mm
Wheel Base = 1091mm
Chainstay Length = 424mm

Okay so clearly the chainstay length is incorrect on Wheel World's site, b/c the chainstay has to be longer than 5.12 inches. My main concern is the head angle, Saber 69/Enduo 70.5.

Questions:
1) Is a degree and a half noticeable?
2) Am I correct that the more lax 69 head angle will slow down my steering, thus making the bike more stable at speed?
3) I understand that this bike can be ridden with either 5" or 6" of travel, would riding in one versus the other change the head angle?
4) I have a Vanilla 125RL, would it be best to ride the Saber with 5" or is it okay to ride a bike with 6" in the rear and only 5" in the front?
5) Should I be concerned about the steeper seat angle on the Saber (72.5 vs. 69 on the Enduro)?
 
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#2 ·
mtnfiend said:
I have an '02 Enduro S-Works that I been riding extensively sense late '02. I love this bike but am cosidering getting a new frame in the next few months. I posted something along these lines several months ago and based on my short list several people recommended the Azonic Saber. So now that I'm back on this topic again in my life I am seriously considering the Saber. The price is right and it has what I'm looking for 5"-6" of travel, coil shock, 4-bar, Host (like?), and the added bonus of a traditional triangle front.

Tonight I was looking into the geometry differences between the Saber and my current Enduro. I ride a medium Enduro and have a short 29" inseam, but seem to ride with my seat high for someone with stumpy 29" legs. The only numbers for the Saber I could find were on the Wheel World site.

Saber:
Head Angle = 69
Seattube Angle = 72.5
Effective top tube = 558mm
Wheel Base = 1100mm
Chainstay Length = 130mm

Enduro:
Head Angle = 70.5
Seattube Angle = 69
Effective top tube = 584mm
Wheel Base = 1091mm
Chainstay Length = 424mm

Okay so clearly the chainstay length is incorrect on Wheel World's site, b/c the chainstay has to be longer than 5.12 inches. My main concern is the head angle, Saber 69/Enduo 70.5.

Questions:
1) Is a degree and a half noticeable?
2) Am I correct that the more lax 69 head angle will slow down my steering, thus making the bike more stable at speed?
3) I understand that this bike can be ridden with either 5" or 6" of travel, would riding in one versus the other change the head angle?
4) I have a Vanilla 125RL, would it be best to ride the Saber with 5" or is it okay to ride a bike with 6" in the rear and only 5" in the front?
5) Should I be concerned about the steeper seat angle on the Saber (72.5 vs. 69 on the Enduro)?
Your Enduro has a seat tube angle that is not measured in line with the BB like nearly all other bikes are measured. You'd really have to test fit the Azonic or other bikes with similar geometry as the Azonic.

The Saber is very heavy duty and rather heavy for lots of climbing, but the angles are good for climbing when the seat is slightly forward of center. The head angle is optimum for 5 - 6 inch travel for higher speeds and steep drops. It is a very good design, nearly exactly the dimensions that Horst designed his AMP B-5 (5 inch travel Horst link, which bobbed a lot when climbing well before the platform shock days). The Azonic comes with Romic shock stock I think, which would be a very good shock for it.

Your 29" legs would fit a medium size comfortably.

- ray
 
#3 ·
mtnfiend said:
Questions:
1) Is a degree and a half noticeable?
2) Am I correct that the more lax 69 head angle will slow down my steering, thus making the bike more stable at speed?
3) I understand that this bike can be ridden with either 5" or 6" of travel, would riding in one versus the other change the head angle?
4) I have a Vanilla 125RL, would it be best to ride the Saber with 5" or is it okay to ride a bike with 6" in the rear and only 5" in the front?
5) Should I be concerned about the steeper seat angle on the Saber (72.5 vs. 69 on the Enduro)?
1. Yes, 1.5 degrees is noticeable. However, I think they measured the Saber with a 6" fork. If you put on a 5" then it is steeper again
2. Yes, slower head angle is more stable at speed- and I think you'll be riding the Saber faster than the Enduro
3. I usually ride in 5" mode, the few times I've ridden in 6" I haven't noticed the head angle so much as the amount of sag.
4. You'll prefer it with 5" rear to balance the front
5. NO, I wouldn't worry too much about it. The Saber will definitely feel slower in the trees and the twisty stuff. If it really bothers you, there's about 1/4" of material that can be shaved off the bottom of the headtube and that would quicken up the steering.

PS- the Saber is a true horst link.
PPS- check your private messages, I'll send a pdf with more angles and info.
 
#5 ·
More Questions

2. Yes, slower head angle is more stable at speed- and I think you'll be riding the Saber faster than the Enduro (I'm not sure I want this. :) I might really hurt myself then)

5. NO, I wouldn't worry too much about it. The Saber will definitely feel slower in the trees and the twisty stuff. (Has this negatively effected your riding in twisty stuff? Do you dislike the slower steering or have you just learned to ride a different bike differently?) If it really bothers you, there's about 1/4" of material that can be shaved off the bottom of the headtube and that would quicken up the steering. (This is an interesting idea. Seems you could change the head angle several degrees with 1/4" of material to play with? I would assume this would void your warrenty though?)

PS- the Saber is a true horst link. (What does this really mean. I seen this comment before. Is the Enduro a true host link? What makes the Saber a true version and others not?)
PPS- check your private messages, I'll send a pdf with more angles and info. (I'll check back to see if your able to find the PDF. Thanks!)
:) :)
 
#6 ·
some answers IMHO

"I might really hurt myself then)[/FONT] I understand this all too well!!! :(

Has this negatively effected your riding in twisty stuff? Do you dislike the slower steering or have you just learned to ride a different bike differently?)[/FONT] If it really bothers you, there's about 1/4" of material that can be shaved off the bottom of the headtube and that would quicken up the steering. (This is an interesting idea. Seems you could change the head angle several degrees with 1/4" of material to play with? I would assume this would void your warrenty though?) The steering is definitely slower than my Homegrown hardtail, and my friends Superlight and Blur, but it really needs to be- I'm riding much faster overall. The TALAS fork really is great for making the bike adjustable. I do find myself dropping the travel for really twisty climbs. In general I probably ride it around 110mm of travel on the fork. I haven't shaved down the headtube, but am seriously considering it. Have you seen the review on go-ride.com?
PS- the Saber is a true horst link. (What does this really mean. I seen this comment before. Is the Enduro a true host link? What makes the Saber a true version and others not?) Both the Enduro and Saber are true horst links. There's a sticker on the saber that says it uses the Specialized patent. In simple terms it means that the pivot is on the chainstay in front of, and slightly below, the rear axle. Reams of virtual paper have been written comparing this with other pivot locations, but I won't go into that. I just know that it rides really well and has the best traits of your Enduro.PPS- check your private messages, I'll send a pdf with more angles and info. (I'll check back to see if your able to find the PDF. Thanks!)
:) :)[/QUOTE]
 
#7 ·
Go-Ride Article

Yeah I read the go-ride article. It was good. I like the comments about being able to make tight turns. I ride lots of trails with REALLY tight, off camber switchbacks, so I tight turning radius is nice. He seemed to build his up pretty heavy.

Thanks again for the information. I will post again if I have more questions, which I'm sure I will.
 
#8 ·
switching to saber...

Hi, I have been forced into the same boat as you (upgrading from a enduro) because I bent my enduro frame, which killed my shock. I only had the bike for 5 months and ride mostly cross country with some drops up to 3ft not to mention the fact I only weigh 110lbs so Im not to happy with the durability of enduro. What I am conserned about is how much more does the saber weigh compared to an enduro frame? I want to be able to ride up hills and cross country while maybe moving on to some more freeriding. I am using a 04 Marzocchi Z1 freeride SL.
 
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