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Heckler, Chaparral or FXR?

2K views 37 replies 16 participants last post by  imridingmybike 
#1 ·
Well, I’ve taken on the daunting task of finding a frame to build up into a trail bike. I’m currently riding a 2001 Enduro Pro with a Stratos Helix Pro and RS Psylo SL up front built up weighing in around 32lbs. I’m 190lbs with gear and like to ride aggressively, 10-25 miles up and down hills with 2-6 foot drops/jumps along the way a couple times a week. I’ve narrowed my choices down to the Santa Cruz Heckler, Banshee Chaparral or the Foes FXR. The Heckler has a nice price range. I like what I’ve read about the Banshee Chaparral but the weight has me just a little apprehensive. The Foes is made in the USA what more can I say.

Let’s hear you opinions.

Thanks.
 
#3 ·
Nice bikes.

enduroprorider said:
Well, I've taken on the daunting task of finding a frame to build up into a trail bike. I'm currently riding a 2001 Enduro Pro with a Stratos Helix Pro and RS Psylo SL up front built up weighing in around 32lbs. I'm 190lbs with gear and like to ride aggressively, 10-25 miles up and down hills with 2-6 foot drops/jumps along the way a couple times a week. I've narrowed my choices down to the Santa Cruz Heckler, Banshee Chaparral or the Foes FXR. The Heckler has a nice price range. I like what I've read about the Banshee Chaparral but the weight has me just a little apprehensive. The Foes is made in the USA what more can I say.

Let's hear you opinions.

Thanks.
I have checked out the Chappy and owned a Heckler and those are good bikes if you want to push the envelope between trail and light freeride. The Chap is a heavy frame, but will be the strongest of the three with the most travel, and can be built into a trailbike with a slight weight penalty compared to the Heckler and Foes(neither of which are considered light). For your type of riding a bike over 30lbs is not too heavy. Especially if you want parts to last on those 4-6ft hits.

With the new shocks available the Heckler is now in the 6" trail bike category with 5.7" of travel with the DHX or long stroke 5th. The thing I liked about my Heckler is that one day you can freeride it and the next, go xc. The Heckler is a true do anything/everything bike that can be built under 30lbs or 35lbs+ depending on your riding. Mine was built around 36lbs+ and took abuse in spades. With the 5th or DHX the Heckler is a good climber and even better at the dh. The low bb height on the Heckler bothered me, but made the bike super stable on the dh. Some people complain of lateral flexing on the Heckler but it was a non issue with me.

I have yet to test the The FXR but it gets great reviews and from what people tell me on this board, Foes make the stiffest bike out there. The Foes sounds like a great trail bike, but I have heard that it does not fare too well when ridden as a light freeride bike with the hits around and above 6ft in height. Both the Chappy and Heckler can handle 6ft hits with no problems.

Good luck.
 
#5 ·
I would have to agree with the Foes. It’s a great all around trail bike. I actually, like the Currnutt, but have not ridden on with the DHX. Regardless, its a fun bike to ride, stiff, stable on small jumps, and climbs surprisingly well. Mines build with a Talas Fork, light wheels, 2.35 Nevgal Tires, and SRAM / Race Face Drivetrain and weights around 31lbs.

A few things to consider with the Foes though is you can not run a dual crown fork which you can with the Heckler and the Chap. May not be a problem for a trail bike though. I think the Foes would work well with a 6" fork, but just remember I believe it voids the warranty if any thing does happen. It would not stop me from going with a longer travel fork, but its something to consider.

The Chap is a great bike but definitely leans more towards the freeride side of the spectrum. There are a lot of guys running 7+ inch travel forks on the frame. It can definitely take some abuse though. On a long ride it might get a little heavy.

There is nothing wrong with the Heckler either. An awful lot of people are very happy with them. Its got a great price as well. It kinda depends if you want to go the boutique bike route or not. The Foes is probably a little stiffer and does have the bling factor.
 
#7 ·
I've no experience with the Chapparel, so no comment.

The Heckler's have (relatively?) large amounts of flex, with main pivot bolts coming loose frequently and the outer clamp-thingy cracking due to the repeated tightening of said bolts. The latter problem may be an isolated incedent, but there's no way that frame is as stout as the FXR. Also, the shock choice isn't as good as what you can get with the Foes.

The FXR is beef. Mine's 30#'s and can do anything, climb, decent, jump etc - which makes it the best bike I've ever ridden.

My set up is 04 FXR -Curnutt XTD Shock (great riding shock), AM1, Avid mechs, some cool trinkets... The bike can climb really well and feels like a DH rig when you extend the fork from 5 to 6".

I have a couple friends who've been riding the bike for about 2 years now with no cracks, worn/loose bearings or unexpected wear.

Go Foes
 
#8 ·
I've owned a heckler, and now an El Chamuco. The heckler was one sweet ride, and it's stable handling will give you the confidence to become a better rider. I know, it did for me. I never had an issue with mine, sold it because of sponsorship conflicts and wished I never had. Then when I wanted to go back to one, everybody that had ridden mine wound up buying one, and I didn't want to me-too it so I got the Chamuco. A little heavier, a little beefier, with a swing-link in the rear. Finding one can be tough, though as they are being replaced with a new model.

I had the heckler built up to 27.5 lbs with a light wheel/tire setup, 30lbs with 36h hope/singletrack wheels with Kenda 2.5's. Talas fork, 5th coil, juicy's, XTR, Maxm bar, thomson post/stem. Trouble-free and killer ride.

I have not ridden a Foes, but I've heard good things about their warranty. I will say that I had a race buddy of mine who bought one and promptly sold it, just didn't like it's ride at all. He had a FCR that he raced, but the FXR just didn't do it for him.

One thing to consider heavily if it is important to you is that the Foes is an interrupted seat tube design, and you cannot raise/lower the saddle much at all. And with the extremely laid-back ST angle, the more you raise it, the farther back the saddle (and yer butt) goes, and vice-versa. Lowering the saddle for the DHs is a good thing.

This is a moot point with the heckler design.

For the price difference between the FOES and the heckler, you could get the heckler and get some extra chi-chi parts. Heck you could almost buy 2 heckler frames for the cost of one FOES if I'm not mistaken.Even if you ever did have a problem with the heckler, which I doubt you ever would, their warranty dept is top-notch as well.

-T
 
#9 ·
string said:
I would have to agree with the Foes. It's a great all around trail bike. I actually, like the Currnutt, but have not ridden on with the DHX. Regardless, its a fun bike to ride, stiff, stable on small jumps, and climbs surprisingly well. Mines build with a Talas Fork, light wheels, 2.35 Nevgal Tires, and SRAM / Race Face Drivetrain and weights around 31lbs.

A few things to consider with the Foes though is you can not run a dual crown fork which you can with the Heckler and the Chap. May not be a problem for a trail bike though. I think the Foes would work well with a 6" fork, but just remember I believe it voids the warranty if any thing does happen. It would not stop me from going with a longer travel fork, but its something to consider
Not really, you can buy FXRs new with maverick DUC32 forks on them, there simply aren't any 5-6" DC forks out there these days anyway, and if you want a 7" DC fork, you want the foes inferno, not the FXR. There are plenty of 5-6" single crown forks these days that this is a non issue IMO.
 
#10 · (Edited)
My foes FXR is a great bike. As other's have hinted, the bike is much stiffer than just about anything else in the same catagory. The heckler is kind of like the budget buy, but if you got the cash the FXR is a great bike and worth the price. Everything about it is designed to be stiffer than it's competitors. Notice that the seatstays and chainstays are much shorter than the heclkers, they are still a good diamter though, the pivot is huge, it uses a swing link to stiffen things even further, asymetrical CNC chainstay yoke, CNCed main pivot/BB shell, 68mm BB, etc. It's designed to be stiff in as many ways as possible. This makes the FXR a very sharp handling bike, even though it has laid back "trailriding" angles, it can change lines very fast and simply handles like a dream.

The geometry of the FXR is nearly identical to that of the turner 5 spot, except that the FXR has a bit slacker headtube. The low BB of the FXR gives it stability, while the short chainstays give it great handling. Effective top tube length is great, but hard to visualize.

I ride the FXR most of the time, I really wouldn't trade it for anything right now. After you've ridden a foes for a little while, it's really hard to go back and ride anything else because of the stiffness. You just get used to how well the rear end tracks and how the bike feels like "one solid peice", and most manufacturers do not have a feel anywhere close to this.

The chapp is much heavier than any other bike in this catagory, the frame is 10.75lbs as weighed by go-ride.com. Those guys are usually pretty accurate and not out to fudge numbers for any reason (they are a banshee dealer after all). That will turn a 30lb trail bike into a nearly 33lb trail bike, which is a fairly significant amount, but to truly utilize the chapp frame, you'd want to build it up with somewhat stouter parts and components, other wise it's a bunch of fairly light parts hanging on a heavier and more capable frame.

The FXR frame is around 7-7.5lbs with an airshock, around 8.5-9lbs with the curnutt shock, around 8-8.5lbs with something like a fox DHX, which is what I recommend at this point. You can't get the DHX OEM on an FXR yet, but if you buy the bike with the vanilla RL or romic shock, you can bolt any fox right up to it without anything additional.

There isn't much I don't like about it, the front derailer cable routing is a little funky, the reason is that the front derailer is actually on the rear triangle, even though the rear triangle is not connected to the BB. It's just a litle odd. More seatpost adjustability would be nice, but there are some products out there that negate this (FSA makes one that isn't too expensive). More seatpost adjustability might lead me to use the bike out of its intended usage anyway.

I'm running a marzocchi all mountain 1 on mine, 5 to 6" of adjustable travel. It's a great setup.
 

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#11 ·
Hmmm... the quotes about a 6" fork voiding the warranty...seatpost retraction issues might lead one to use the bike outside it's intended use......Just wondering what you boys think the Foes frame is for? ANY serious all-mountain bike should be able to drop the seat for the extended downhills IMHO.

I sold the heckler for a TALAS switchblade (IST frame/horst-link), and I'll tell you, I really missed the ability to drop the seat. I also missed a lot more than that, and sold the switch as soon as possible to go back to a heckler design and wound up with the chamuco, which is something he should consider as well.

The guy wants to do 6' drops on it! I guess the Foes isn't for this??

Also, the guy is supposed to buy the Foes (most expensive bike in his pick) and then buy an additional shock for it? How much of a hit will he take on the shock it comes with?

JM, nice bike, very nice. Just wondering why you would put a notoriously flexy and knee-unfriendly stem on that bike, given it's intended purpose and expecially considering the fine fork you've got up front. The bolts sticking out the back of that thing will definately find itself under your kneecap sooner or later, trust me on that!
 
#12 ·
TomFL said:
JM, nice bike, very nice. Just wondering why you would put a notoriously flexy and knee-unfriendly stem on that bike, given it's intended purpose and expecially considering the fine fork you've got up front. The bolts sticking out the back of that thing will definately find itself under your kneecap sooner or later, trust me on that!
It's only 100mm, so it isn't going to flex much, so it doesn't need to be uber-beefy IMO for this kind of bike, and I don't have any problem with protruding bolts on it. The shadows may be exagerating the effect.

BTW, I've never found anything that says you can't run a 6" fork on it, and as I said, they come new with 6" forks from some places, like richards bikes.
 
#13 ·
My bad on the fork. I read their "updated product manual wrong" (which is pretty easy to do...its not the best designed manual). They say dual crown forks void the warranty which I would have to agree...If you want to run a dual crown (other than the Maverick) the FXR is the wrong frame.

They also say its designed around a 5" fork and that longer or shorter is not optimal in their opinion. They do not say it voids the warranty though.

IMO a longer travel fork (especially an adjustable travel model) would be great on the FXR.
 
#14 ·
FXR is stiff but not the strongest of the three.

TomFL said:
Hmmm... the quotes about a 6" fork voiding the warranty...seatpost retraction issues might lead one to use the bike outside it's intended use......Just wondering what you boys think the Foes frame is for? ANY serious all-mountain bike should be able to drop the seat for the extended downhills IMHO.

I sold the heckler for a TALAS switchblade (IST frame/horst-link), and I'll tell you, I really missed the ability to drop the seat. I also missed a lot more than that, and sold the switch as soon as possible to go back to a heckler design and wound up with the chamuco, which is something he should consider as well.

The guy wants to do 6' drops on it! I guess the Foes isn't for this??

Also, the guy is supposed to buy the Foes (most expensive bike in his pick) and then buy an additional shock for it? How much of a hit will he take on the shock it comes with?

JM, nice bike, very nice. Just wondering why you would put a notoriously flexy and knee-unfriendly stem on that bike, given it's intended purpose and expecially considering the fine fork you've got up front. The bolts sticking out the back of that thing will definately find itself under your kneecap sooner or later, trust me on that!
Stiffness does not always equate to strength.You are right that the FXR is not meant for 6ft drops. I have read quite a few posts on the FXR and many owners warn against jumping in the 6ft range. Sure it is a great bike, but the rider in question weighs in the 200lb range and is going to be dropping 6ft on the bike. I would err on the side of caution in this case and recommend the Heckler or something like it.

Someone else mentioned that bolts come loose on the Heckler and I never had to tighten anything on my Heckler besides general maintenance. The durability of the Heckler speaks for itself. VERY few Heckler frames get broken.
 
#15 · (Edited)
um...exactly what is your criteria for thinking that the fxr is not as strong as the others?

Not frequently dropping a trail bike 6' to flat is common sense.

Even if he wieghs 200lbs, it makes a great trailbike.

If he wants a freeride bike, obviously he needs to look elsewhere.
 
#16 ·
Getting back to my original post...

It seems this has turned in to a Foes debate.

So, what I have read from you folks is that the Foes may not be the best choice for more freeriding style riding. I'm not going to be doing 6ft drops all the time but 2-4 drops on a regular basis for sure. It sounds like i would have better luck building the Heckler around the 32 lb range and the least expensive where the Chaparral will be in the 34 - 36 lb range, costing a little more but maybe a better big hit bike.

Correct?
 
#17 ·
enduroprorider said:
It seems this has turned in to a Foes debate.

So, what I have read from you folks is that the Foes may not be the best choice for more freeriding style riding. I'm not going to be doing 6ft drops all the time but 2-4 drops on a regular basis for sure. It sounds like i would have better luck building the Heckler around the 32 lb range and the least expensive where the Chaparral will be in the 34 - 36 lb range, costing a little more but maybe a better big hit bike.

Correct?
Not to confuse you further, but the FXR can handle anything the Heckler can and will pedal/climb better and is stiffer like everyone is saying, don't know about the Chap. BTW, with a properly cut post you can get 4" of post adj. on the FXR which is plenty for most folks unless you like to lower the seat all the way which in that case you need a full seattube. My FXR w/Curnutt and ti spring weighed under 8lbs, I'm thinking about an air shock for the 5" mode and running the curnutt for the 6" mode. I guess for the price difference the Heckler is hard to beat but the FXR is going to be a better trailbike IMO.
 
#18 ·
No exact criteria Jm.

Jm. said:
um...exactly what is your criteria for thinking that the fxr is not as strong as the others?

Not frequently dropping a trail bike 6' to flat is common sense.

Even if he wieghs 200lbs, it makes a great trailbike.

If he wants a freeride bike, obviously he needs to look elsewhere.
I personally think the Foes would be one of the best trail bikes that money can buy. I never once said anything about dropping 6' to flat either. I said dropping 6' which is what the the guy said in the original post. Whether or not he is dropping to flat or tranny is up to him. The rider wants a trailbike that can take a hit. Maybe the FXR is up to the challenge and maybe it is not. Everyone in the know realizes that the FXR is a formidable trailbike, but the rider in question wants a trailbike that can handle some freeriding on the side or he would not have stated he was going to be taking hits in the 6ft range. I also never said the FXR would not be a suitable bike for a 200lb rider.

I have asked many questions about the FXR on this forum and the reason I suggested the Chap and Heckler over the FXR is that some FXR owners stated that the bike is not built for hits in the 6ft and up range. I have heard this more than a few times now. There was a thread a while back about the Inferno where a rider wanted a light freeride bike and was considering the Inferno. Many people suggested that even with 7.5" of travel the Inferno was not made for freeriding and is a trailbike. Now I look at the Inferno which is beefier than the FXR and people say dont freeride with it. Where does that leave the FXR? I tend to err on the side of caution and would not want to chance breaking the FXR if I wanted to huck in the 6-8ft range. BTW, you do not a freeride specific bike if you ARE NOT going bigger than 10ft as the Heckler and Chappy can handle these type of hits. Especially the Chap.

The Heckler can easily handle a 6ft hit and more. If you look at some of the pics on the SC site there is many riders in the 200lb+ range going big on the Heckler. The Heckler is not considered a freeride bike but can easily handle light freeriding abuse. The Chap is heavier and stronger than either the Heckler and FXR and many riders in Canada are using it as a full on freeride bike.
 
#19 ·
The FXR is going to set you back almost $1000 more than a heckler.

I would say that for the price of the FXR you could spec a Heckler with a Fox 36 fork and DHX rear shock.

I think that these 2 shocks would be hella cool on the Heckler and you might even have money left over to buy some sweet Chris King / Mavic 819 UST wheels with the money you saved versus the FXR.

Just some thoughts...

Sometimes things like 20MM front axles and superstrong/superlight wheels can change your mind.
 
#20 ·
JM - how much seatpost drop can you get on that? It looks like about 2.5".
Are there really quality telescoping posts on the market now?

I would say that such limited seatpost adjustability would be a major problem for all-mountain use. Either descending or climbing would be hindered.

-rob in NY
 
#21 ·
rpet said:
JM - how much seatpost drop can you get on that? It looks like about 2.5".
Are there really quality telescoping posts on the market now?

I would say that such limited seatpost adjustability would be a major problem for all-mountain use. Either descending or climbing would be hindered.

-rob in NY
Yeah, around 3". When I have my seatpost in the full "up" positin, it's about an inch higher than the end of the seat tube, this gives me probably a hair under 3", and enough to make a pretty big difference when I ride.

FSA makes a cool new telescoping seatpost. The best part about it is that you can cut it down to fit your bike, meaning you aren't stuck with the lengths it comes in, so you can really get an optimal setup.

One reason my seatpost adjustment is more limited is due to the DHX shock, the curnutt gave me more adjustability, but the adjustment that I do have is enough to make a big change, and as I said, it's not a full on DH machine or anything, so I'm not concerned. I may look into the FSA, OR just get the FSA and a different seat, and switch out seatposts/seats according to the rides I do.
 
#22 ·
rpet said:
JM - how much seatpost drop can you get on that? It looks like about 2.5".
Are there really quality telescoping posts on the market now?

I would say that such limited seatpost adjustability would be a major problem for all-mountain use. Either descending or climbing would be hindered.

-rob in NY
Telescoping posts won't get anymore adj. than a standard post on the FXR, thats not why you would run them anyways, ease of adj. would be the reason. If you lower your saddle 3-4" for descending or riding technical steep stuff than thats gonna be plenty unless your talking about big drops or dirt jumping which in that case you could run another seatpost/saddle like Jm said, or another bike altogether. With the DHX, you might want to try a telescoping post to get a bit more adj., but with the Curnutt I get 4+" of adj. which is plenty, this should not be a reason to not buy the FXR IMO.
 
#23 ·
A full 4"

That right,

with the Curnutt, I have 4 inches of adjustment, which is really enough to make the bike feel darn close a DH rig, as I stated above with my AM1 set to 6" in the front.

I am looking at putting a Fox AVA on the bike to drop some weight for lengthy XC rides. This shock may afford a little more adjustment still. Eric at Foes said the would charge me a very reasonable amount to have the extra shock

JM- any experience with an air shock on the FXR? Specifically the AVA??

Judging by this post, I'd say the Heckler and FXR owners are devout followers of their respective pall bearers, or atleast very pleased customers.

To the original poster: judging by the vehemence each has defended their purchase, you'll probably be stoked either way.

I, of course am partial to the FXR!!!
 
#24 ·
imridingmybike said:
I am looking at putting a Fox AVA on the bike to drop some weight for lengthy XC rides. This shock may afford a little more adjustment still. Eric at Foes said the would charge me a very reasonable amount to have the extra shock

JM- any experience with an air shock on the FXR? Specifically the AVA??
I would not put an AVA on the FXR. The FXR has a pretty significant falling rate to the suspension. By using an AVA shock, you are only going to worsen this by making the air shock more linear. An RP3 or fox without the AVA sleeve would be my choice for an airshock on it.

The AVA helps a lot with progressive designs like the 5 spot and others. Air by nature is progressive when used in a spring, and then when combined with a progressive linkage frame, you basically get too much progression and you'll never see full travel when using the proper sag. This is where the AVA helps. On a falling rate bike though, the exact opposite is going on, and you do not want to make the shock "more linear", you want to do the opposite, make the shock more progressive.

The fox RP3 would be my pick for an air shock. Even the fox DHX will save you significant weight over the curnutt. The curnutt has got to be at least 2.5lbs. The platform of the RP3 (or DHX) is also something that is going to help the FXR design, as it's a single pivot. In my opinion, some sort of platform shock like the RP3 or DHX is necessary on this bike. I tried an old fox RC I had laying around for a few days while I was waiting for the DHX to arrive, and it was bob-o-matic, it also required a MUCH stiffer spring than I'd usually run because it was not progressive and the falling rate of the bike overwhelmed it. I've used the fox vanilla RC, vanilla RL, Curnutt, and fox DHX on the FXR. The DHX outclasses them all by far.

Yeah, it's amazing how that 20mm of travel change on the AM1 affects the ride, handling and overall "feel" of the bike. It feels like a great trail bike with the fork in the 5" mode, but switch it to 6" mode and it feels like I've just bolted a Super T to the front, changes your weight bias, makes you position yourself differently (good thing) when riding downhill, basically lets you go way faster.
 
#25 ·
Thanks

Jm. said:
I would not put an AVA on the FXR. The FXR has a pretty significant falling rate to the suspension. By using an AVA shock, you are only going to worsen this by making the air shock more linear. An RP3 or fox without the AVA sleeve would be my choice for an airshock on it.

The AVA helps a lot with progressive designs like the 5 spot and others. Air by nature is progressive when used in a spring, and then when combined with a progressive linkage frame, you basically get too much progression and you'll never see full travel when using the proper sag. This is where the AVA helps. On a falling rate bike though, the exact opposite is going on, and you do not want to make the shock "more linear", you want to do the opposite, make the shock more progressive.

.
Will the AVA still be too linear even if I set it up as much rising rate as it is capable.

Foes said they'd sell it at the little mount-chip-dealio for 2-bills...

If not, where's a good source for an RP3?

Thanks,
 
#26 · (Edited)
imridingmybike said:
Will the AVA still be too linear even if I set it up as much rising rate as it is capable.

Foes said they'd sell it at the little mount-chip-dealio for 2-bills...

If not, where's a good source for an RP3?

Thanks,
I'm looking into an RP3 too, pls. post a ride report when/if you get one, I'll do the same.

Jm- why does the RP3 work well with the 5 Spot?, considering your explanation above I would think it would be too progressive, is is more linear than other air shocks?
 
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