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  1. #1
    nimble biker
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    Does anyone believe anti-squat suspension really work ?

    Does anyone believe anti-squat suspension really work ?

    I read many reviews online but I need to know 1st hand experience.

  2. #2
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    Depends what you mean by squat. People use the term differently, so it's a good idea to make sure we're on the same page.

    A rear suspension that increases the distance between the BB and rear hub when compressed is naturally anti-squat, because putting pressure on the pedal pulls the top chain taut. The harder you pedal, the more resistance against compression. Also a smaller chainring resists compression regardless of your overall gear ratio.

  3. #3
    Nickel Havr
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    My Santa Cruz Nickel with APP doesn't really "bob" or "squat"....
    Quote Originally Posted by William Blake
    Great things are done when men and mountains meet. This is not done by jostling in the street .

  4. #4
    nimble biker
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    I am wondering if bike manufacturers use anti-squat terminology to sell bikes.

  5. #5
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    Well my previous bike was a single pivot 2008 Turner 5spot and it was a very good bike and pedaled well. Last year a I built up a 2011 Turner 5spot with DW Link (one of the designed that uses anti-squat). I can say for certain that the DW link suspension pedals much better than its single pivot predecessor without any loss in suspension quality.

  6. #6
    650b me
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    Hell yes it works. I have a Pivot Mach 4 with DW-link and it's better 'n sliced bread.

  7. #7
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    Does anyone believe anti-squat suspension really work ?

    Yes it works. On my ibis when I pedal forward it provide firmness checking how it works I pedal backward I'd see the shock started to compress deeper. There's no gimmick.

  8. #8
    FKA Malibu412
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    All just a gimmick to sell the more expensive bikes. Buy a hard tail and save bunches.

    Or, keep over-thinking it and asking stupid questions on biking forums.

    You posted previously that you have a Stumpy FSR so it would seem you know firsthand what anti-squat and Horst means to rear suspension.

    What's that smell? Troll??
    Everything that kills me, makes me feel alive

  9. #9
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    ..and with 1155 posts starting in 2005...and the other post about the same issue..huh..
    lean forward

  10. #10
    Trail Ninja
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    Not really directed at the OP, but in general, in case anyone else has this question and wants a better idea. Disclaimer: I don't claim that this info is all 100% trustworthy; it's just my interpretation. I don't design premium bikes, so my creds aren't any better than the average person.

    Try hammering an Intense Spider 29 Comp out of the saddle. Try it with as little damping as possible (ie. Descend mode on CTD) and then run it again with more damping, testing in increments. You might get your 1st hand experience of how high anti-squat works then, with that rear end "feeling like a HT". Not exactly a good thing for all riders, but if you're riding something like fireroads and are fond of suspension that doesn't have severe monkey motion when you sloppily stomp on the pedals... Not all dual-link bikes advertised to have higher anti-squat are designed to do that. There's bikes with greater amounts of anti squat than others, but many shoot for a certain amount.



    In this chart, the anti-squat of the Spider 29 Comp is analyzed in both its shock mount positions and compared to the Tallboy LTc. At about 25% sag (25% of 130mm travel = 32.5mm), the Spider 29 Comp has about 110% anti-squat, and deeper in its travel the anti-squat increases to 140% in its 5" rear travel setting. In it's 4.75" travel setting, it has just under 70% anti-squat at 25% sag, increasing to almost 100% deeper in its travel. The LTc has about 95% at 25% sag, and stays around 100% for most its stroke.

    Many 4-bar and single pivot trail bikes appear to have around 70% anti-squat in the 32/15 gear (middle 32t ring up front, 15t cog in the back) at sag and about 100% in a climbing gear, and many "high anti-squat" dual link bikes appear to have 100% anti-squat in the 32/15 gear and about 120% in a climbing gear. 140% is rather rare, as there can be too much anti-squat, making the cons of anti-squat more apparent. Looks like the Spider 29 Comp offers both set ups. Usually the lighter and XC racers have the 70% flatland gearing and 100% in climbing, while the trail bikes are 100% and 120%... you can test that all on the Spider by just undoing a bolt and playing with pressure a bit.

    That's before talking of "pedaling efficiency". Chain torque from your pedaling action can affect the rear triangle, compressing it (squating) and maybe being absorbed by the damper or partly being turned into anti-squat (extending it). You're losing power and neither will be as efficient as a HT, getting more of that power output into driving the rear wheel. Even on a Niner CVA and all these brands that try to use the "average chain torque line" and certain instant center positions you will lose power, from the downward force on the cranks. Pedaling like a HT, without the squat or pogo only leads the naive to thinking that they're more efficient. Sometimes the marketing much use the word "more efficient" in describing, but they can get away with that as it could mean more efficient use of suspension, as the suspension isn't being worked as hard and has more travel ready to track the ground and keep the bike in control (suspension efficiency, rather than power output efficiency). In other words, if your suspension is getting loaded from your pedaling form, then yes, it's not as efficient as it can be, in terms of tracking the ground, and that's the kind of efficiency some marketers might claim that they're actually talking about, if you try to take them to court for false advertising.

    I'd call the bikes that have 100% anti squat in climbing gears as neutral. Even some dual link bikes are made neutral, like Niner CVA bikes, but the few Niners I've rode had their stock shocks tuned to be fairly firm, so you really can't focus just one or two aspects when dealing with suspension action under various pedaling forms. Neutral doesn't really mean bob-free. I consider it more as being a balance point between being prone to excessive squat and prone to excessive kick-back (among other things high anti-squat is associated with). One can subjectively say that Yeti's Switch linkage design, with its 100% anti squat in middle ring and 120% in climbing gears is in the sweet spot, maybe in terms of pedaling characteristics for their trail-riding style, but there's so much more to the equation, such as geometry, frame stiffness, linkage design, leverage ratio curve, shock tune, linkage hardware, alignment and tolerances, rider weight, etc. There's also the unique consideration in that design, as its anti-squat curve falls at the later part of the stroke where you most likely aren't pedaling to minimize negative effects of high anti-squat. It just can't be summed up in a general manner. You can't say this and that is best or better (in general), you can only say this and that is better for specific people, such as yourself. In other words, you have to ride to believe. I personally believe that there can be too much anti-squat, but if there's too little, usually shock tunes can make up for it well enough to get the suspension feel you want, though the lower the anti-squat, the more shock dependent it is, and the more load the shock must handle.

  11. #11
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    Well said Varaxis.

    I agree too much of anything is not necessary a good thing. Furthermore, it's all about balance and compromises. Most A-S are designed around middle ring and compromised the performance with small and big ring. We are talking a little bit, as most people would get into the small ring on the climb and usually not on the rolling terrain. I researched into this subject quite a bit before I bought my last bike, the Mojo HD, because I have the Hammerschmidt and I was hoping to use it on my new bike.

    Well, most designs are not optimized for a permanent granny ring set up. The only one has no effect is the 3-pivot Monolink design of Maverick, which is a good news, it's my favorite design anyways. You've just have to get out there and try them as many as you can.

    I also like what Malibu said since you already have the FSR, it's already easier to find out how it works just by turning off the brain and run it full open. You should not need the assistant of the brain ever as it's working just fine. I don't think it's a marketing ploy but it ain't going to work properly if the rider is sloppy and stomp the pedals all the time

  12. #12
    Trail Ninja
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    Just gonna quickly add in a few extra thoughts:

    The two settings on the Spider 29 Comp should open up some eyes. People fail to realize that there's so much you can change on a bike. Almost all bikes were designed to be serviceable, allowing you to unbolt the shock, linkages, swingarm, etc. If you can unbolt it, you can bolt something else on it. It's just a matter of finding what else you can bolt on. You don't have to settle for what's already made; you contract a fab to machine up a new swing link, with the opportunity to change an assortment of things, including the anti-squat characteristics. Considering a frame costs a consumer $2000-3000, with rear swingarms maybe costing 500-800, and the cost of other components on the bike costing $50-500, what do you think sounds reasonable for a new swing link, one that's even higher quality than stock? Push Industries made one for the Nomad, and charge over $200 and Ibis has a Lopes link and charges a relatively cheap $85. Modding your shock can change your bike a lot too, to change the bike's feel in regards to pedaling and suspension action. My buddy's is a Manitou freak that loves how adjustable they are and tries to sell me on them all the time, while I tell him that he just doesn't know how adjustable newer Fox products are (at least with air spring volume tuning). We could argue back and forth the advantages of each, but the point is that the shocks are different, with unique merits that may suit certain riders better, with my buddy lauding the adjustability, performance, and affordability of Manitou. What's keeping people from trying out new shocks? Would they rather spend $3000 for a new frame, hoping a bike brand gets a certain geo and tune just how they like it, than maybe $650 for a new shock and linkage and can adjust their bike more to their liking?

    The bike brand engineers agonize over very precisely placed pivot points, bouncing designs back and forth with the manufacturer to find something that is cheaper to mass produce, for maximized profit margins. There's likely room for improvement, at a cost. Having multiple bikes in a brand's line-up that shares tech further improves margins, assuming each bike sells a comparable amount. There's a vital part of a mtn bike they really can't design though, and that's the rider.

    Those anti-squat values actually change as the rider's center of gravity of changes. As a rider, you can change that all sorts of ways, from changing the seatpost height, setback, saddle, your position floating over it, etc. In fact, if you understand your bike well enough, you can change it to adapt to the bike better, to draw out the bike's character and optimize accordingly, and all you are doing is adjusting your position and technique. There's no one right way to ride a bike on a trail.

    Too in-depth for most to understand, but just wanted to give some perspective on this and the fallacy of trying to gain understanding of things bit by bit and attempting to mesh results logically, rather than trying to understand things holistically. There's just too many factors in the mtb ownership experience to really be sold on such minor aspects such as what name suspension system you have or whether or not they market that they follow a different anti-squat philosophy. It's good to have a light and responsive bike, that's fast and fun, yet forgiving on your local trails, but satisfaction and happiness could come from anything, from the dealer you buy from, to how much the company stands behind their product and care for their consumers on a personal level, or to how much you like how your bike looks and how personalized/customized it is. I don't know anyone that enjoys the indications that their current bike is becoming obsolete, from brands introducing significantly better redesigns within a few years of purchase, to new disruptive technologies that gain rapid acceptance, such as disc brakes and new wheel sizes, but technically, bikes don't become obsolete. Only the idea of what you believe is "good enough for you" is made obsolete. There's bad, good, better, and best, and then there's bad for you, good enough for you, even better than others for you, and best for you... people should be more personal with their decisions, thinking for themselves and not worry about what others' opinions are, as what's good enough *for you* is what's more important in your decisions than what is simply good in general.

  13. #13
    nimble biker
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    this is too much techno mumbo jumbo. I have a headache.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    this is too much techno mumbo jumbo. I have a headache.
    Well, you asked

    It's time for you to get the bible Lee Likes Bikes, it would tell you pretty much what you've been asking so far and then some. I have the hard copy as well as iBook version really handy sometime.

  15. #15
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    MonoLink /thread
    No doubt, ML is pretty much the best suspension you can have, doesn't bob, sucks up bumps like a Suede sofa and climbs a 750-hp strong Volvo 850 R AWD, I don't really believe in anti-squat, I just want a GOOD engineered suspension design like ML is.

  16. #16
    psycho cyclo addict
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    I think everyone can agree that modern dual suspension designs do a much better job. Some of it still comes down to your riding style; just like how we walk- some do so with a very fluid/efficient motion and others bop around all herky/jerky and totally oblivious to it.

    Another component is the rider's perception. I've had riders climbing next to me, bobbing up and down all over the place totally happy with their setup and emphatically stating there is "no bob" when they pedal

    I spend ~95%+ of the time in the middle ring (yes, I still run 3x9's plus a single speed) and tend a bit more toward masher than spinner. DW-link works well for me as opposed to Brain-based, CVA, or VPP.

  17. #17
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    I've been amazed to hear people say that certain bikes I've demo'ed (SB66, Intense Tracer) are firm. On these two bikes especially, I felt like I was bobbing all over the place and completely inefficient. Seems to be the feel of the suspension differs A LOT depending on your riding style.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skelldify View Post
    I've been amazed to hear people say that certain bikes I've demo'ed (SB66, Intense Tracer) are firm. On these two bikes especially, I felt like I was bobbing all over the place and completely inefficient. Seems to be the feel of the suspension differs A LOT depending on your riding style.
    Bobbing and all over the place? What's your bench mark? as I completely disagree with what you just said.

  19. #19
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    When I pedaled either of these bikes, sitting or standing, it felt like I was using about 2 of the 6 inches of travel either one has. I looked down and literally saw the shock extending and contracting with each pedal stroke. It was like the air pressure in the shock was waaay too low, but I had them both set to around 30% sag. I even asked them to firm the Tracer up a bit and it made almost no difference. (Since it was a demo, I didn't have all day to mess with the settings.)
    On the other hand, an Ibis Mojo was so firm it almost felt like my hardtail when I pedaled it. Every pedal stroke launched me forward, and there was almost no up/down.

    You can disagree all you want. I'm just saying what I felt. In fact, you've reinforced my point that the way a bike feels varies a lot from person to person.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skelldify View Post
    When I pedaled either of these bikes, sitting or standing, it felt like I was using about 2 of the 6 inches of travel either one has. I looked down and literally saw the shock extending and contracting with each pedal stroke. It was like the air pressure in the shock was waaay too low, but I had them both set to around 30% sag. I even asked them to firm the Tracer up a bit and it made almost no difference. (Since it was a demo, I didn't have all day to mess with the settings.)
    On the other hand, an Ibis Mojo was so firm it almost felt like my hardtail when I pedaled it. Every pedal stroke launched me forward, and there was almost no up/down.

    You can disagree all you want. I'm just saying what I felt. In fact, you've reinforced my point that the way a bike feels varies a lot from person to person.
    It's hard to take you seriously, not because you disagreed with me or others but because of your attitude and your content. One bike design may feel less snappy than the other but to declare 2 of the recent popular models completely inefficient, it's just absurd. I like all 3 of my DW-Link Mojo just fine but it's not quite the best climber in my stable, I've said it many times before on this forum over the years. Plus SB66 is essentially the same as DW-Link, and the Intense VPP is not too far off.

    You strike me as a Hardtail rider who's never really ridden a FS before. The way you described your experience, I picture you as a masher and probably needs more time to properly transition to FS. Are you watching the shock compressing as it absorbs the pedaling force or you are looking at the shock moving. When not looking how does it feel, it a mush?

    I've ridden tons of Specialized and other 4-bar bikes with suspension fully open and it feels just fine no obvious inefficiency there either. So, it's twice harder to really feel complete inefficiency on two of the modern dual mini links especially when you think another similar design is superb.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mimi1885 View Post
    It's hard to take you seriously, not because you disagreed with me or others but because of your attitude and your content. One bike design may feel less snappy than the other but to declare 2 of the recent popular models completely inefficient, it's just absurd. I like all 3 of my DW-Link Mojo just fine but it's not quite the best climber in my stable, I've said it many times before on this forum over the years. Plus SB66 is essentially the same as DW-Link, and the Intense VPP is not too far off.

    You strike me as a Hardtail rider who's never really ridden a FS before. The way you described your experience, I picture you as a masher and probably needs more time to properly transition to FS. Are you watching the shock compressing as it absorbs the pedaling force or you are looking at the shock moving. When not looking how does it feel, it a mush?

    I've ridden tons of Specialized and other 4-bar bikes with suspension fully open and it feels just fine no obvious inefficiency there either. So, it's twice harder to really feel complete inefficiency on two of the modern dual mini links especially when you think another similar design is superb.
    What, youre calling what is a modified single pivot (sb66) rthe same as a dw-link ? YOU just lost some credibility with me

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by le_buzz View Post
    What, youre calling what is a modified single pivot (sb66) rthe same as a dw-link ? YOU just lost some credibility with me
    Other than looks, which part of SB66 design is modified SinglePivot? Plus the context was about climbing and anti-squat. If I said Trek, then may be

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